Guest guest Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 cal wrote: > ...Certainly I do not see value in casting the idea of 'duty' in such >> negative terms as 'scorching the tender plant of spirituality'... Dear cal and all ~ I think I must have missed something. As usual I'm way behind on the digests. :::sigh::: Sometimes we parse the meanings of words too much, I believe. I looked up "duty" in the dictionary, and the meanings were quite various: from "moral obligation" to "an act or a course of action that is required of one by position, social custom, law, or religion." As householders (those of us who are) we have many "duties": provide for ourselves and our children, do our work well at our jobs and at home; take care of ourselves and our children (physical and emotional needs); keep our homes clean; and for some, be good role models for our children; contribute in some way to our neighborhoods, communities, nation, or our chosen spirituality belief system. I have read many accounts where Amma has asked a devotee at the Ashram to do something specific (duty?) like feed the cows. Then when the person does not do it, Amma does it Herself. Why does She do this? To model behavior, not only "duty" (doing what one has been asked), but also to model selfless service. There are a lot of things we do that probably we'd rather not do (like cleaning the toilet), but we do them anyway. Why? Do we clean the toilet out of a desire to perform selfless service? Well maybe some who are quite advanced in their spiritual development. But, speaking for myself, I don't particularly like cleaning the toilet, and when I do it, it is because it needs to be done (duty). There is an ancient tradition in India of parents (I think this has probably mostly applied to wealthy parents, but perhaps, in the backstory of history, it was initially something all parents did) ... anyway, parents send their young sons off to the ashram of the family guru. Children who may have been pampered are now required to shave their heads, dawn the dhoti of a renunciate, and begin to learn spiritual practices. I'm sure many parents have not wanted to send their young sons off for this austere life (actually, the movie, "Ramayana," originally made as a series for Indian television shows the mothers .... back then the king or head honcho had more than one wife ... crying, holding onto their sons, and with great reluctance, finally letting them go. Why do they do this? Some, at least, certainly don't want to. I'm pretty sure that the previously pampered sons don't really want to go live this austere lifestye. So why do they do it? Duty, tradition...and part of what the children are learning about is duty. At some point of enlightenment, I'm pretty sure that "chopping wood and carrying water" becomes, not a duty, but a sacred act of selfless service. We are all on the road, but while we are learning, I believe the idea of duty plays an important role, especially for our little ego-driven monkey minds. I, of course, am not talking about a hairsuit, self flagellation relationship to duty, but the attitude of a learner. Do all of us do everything with a free sense of selfless service? I, at least, have not reached that level yet. We make commitments, and to carry out those commitments, we rely on our sense of duty, and if we've had good role modeling from our parents, we follow through. Then we get the role modeling of the guru and begin to learn this idea of selfless service. But in between the duty and the selfless service, I believe there are a lot of steps, not all of them easy. Jai Ma ~ Linda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Thank you Linda, we obviously feel similarly about the value of duty. I'm curious though...what then is the value of the quote? The specific metaphor of duty 'scorching' spirituality is baffling to me. In my mind, if a reasonable interpretation of the metaphor isn't appropriate or warranted what use is the metaphor? The same could said for the other two quotes. I see collectively they evidence a deep frustration and anger, a lack of acceptance. More darkly, I can imagine a presumed guru propping up his/her stature by dishing out these ego-driven proclamations to acolytes. Not a very pleasent thought, but it's the only way these quotes make any real sense to me. help. ONS C with its Ammachi, nierika@a... wrote: > > > cal wrote: > > > ...Certainly I do not see value in casting the idea of 'duty' in such > >> negative terms as 'scorching the tender plant of spirituality'... > > Dear cal and all ~ I think I must have missed something. As usual I'm way > behind on the digests. :::sigh::: Sometimes we parse the meanings of words too > much, I believe. I looked up "duty" in the dictionary, and the meanings were > quite various: from "moral obligation" to > "an act or a course of action that is required of one by position, social > custom, law, or religion." > > As householders (those of us who are) we have many "duties": provide for > ourselves and our children, do our work well at our jobs and at home; take care > of ourselves and our children (physical and emotional needs); keep our homes > clean; and for some, be good role models for our children; contribute in some > way to our neighborhoods, communities, nation, or our chosen spirituality > belief system. > > I have read many accounts where Amma has asked a devotee at the Ashram to do > something specific (duty?) like feed the cows. Then when the person does not > do it, Amma does it Herself. Why does She do this? To model behavior, not > only "duty" (doing what one has been asked), but also to model selfless > service. There are a lot of things we do that probably we'd rather not do (like > cleaning the toilet), but we do them anyway. Why? Do we clean the toilet out of a > desire to perform selfless service? Well maybe some who are quite advanced > in their spiritual development. But, speaking for myself, I don't particularly > like cleaning the toilet, and when I do it, it is because it needs to be > done (duty). > > There is an ancient tradition in India of parents (I think this has probably > mostly applied to wealthy parents, but perhaps, in the backstory of history, > it was initially something all parents did) ... anyway, parents send their > young sons off to the ashram of the family guru. Children who may have been > pampered are now required to shave their heads, dawn the dhoti of a renunciate, > and begin to learn spiritual practices. I'm sure many parents have not > wanted to send their young sons off for this austere life (actually, the movie, > "Ramayana," originally made as a series for Indian television shows the mothers > ... back then the king or head honcho had more than one wife ... crying, > holding onto their sons, and with great reluctance, finally letting them go. Why > do they do this? Some, at least, certainly don't want to. I'm pretty sure > that the previously pampered sons don't really want to go live this austere > lifestye. So why do they do it? Duty, tradition...and part of what the children > are learning about is duty. > > At some point of enlightenment, I'm pretty sure that "chopping wood and > carrying water" becomes, not a duty, but a sacred act of selfless service. We are > all on the road, but while we are learning, I believe the idea of duty plays > an important role, especially for our little ego-driven monkey minds. I, of > course, am not talking about a hairsuit, self flagellation relationship to > duty, but the attitude of a learner. Do all of us do everything with a free > sense of selfless service? I, at least, have not reached that level yet. We make > commitments, and to carry out those commitments, we rely on our sense of > duty, and if we've had good role modeling from our parents, we follow through. > Then we get the role modeling of the guru and begin to learn this idea of > selfless service. But in between the duty and the selfless service, I believe > there are a lot of steps, not all of them easy. Jai Ma ~ Linda > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Here are my thoughts: I agree with Swami Vivekananda that duty scorches spirituality. In the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna says: sarvadharmam parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja aham tva sarvapapebhyo moksayisyami ma sucah "Abandon all dharma and take refuge in Me alone; I shall liberate you from all sins; grieve not". Dharma is frequently translated here as 'duty'. Duty stems from a feeling of obligation, and spirituality to me means freedom from obligation. A child is not assigned duties. A childlike enjoyment of the world, free of all duties (including 'selfless service') is what I would like to have until final moksha. Duties are burdens. If my naturally flowing actions are of some benefit to someone, that would be a happy accident. Frequently the joy that we get from doing our duty is actually the joy when the weight of the burden is eased, and it is temporary; the next day we feel that there are even more duties to be done. Amma assigns duties to release feelings of obligation and to give people something to do at the times that they cannot be still, or are dry inside. Anyway, just my two cents. Nandu Ammachi, "cal_ewing" <cal_ewing> wrote: > > > Thank you Linda, we obviously feel similarly about the value of duty. > I'm curious though...what then is the value of the quote? The specific > metaphor of duty 'scorching' spirituality is baffling to me. In my > mind, if a reasonable interpretation of the metaphor isn't appropriate > or warranted what use is the metaphor? The same could said for the > other two quotes. I see collectively they evidence a deep frustration > and anger, a lack of acceptance. More darkly, I can imagine a presumed > guru propping up his/her stature by dishing out these ego-driven > proclamations to acolytes. Not a very pleasent thought, but it's the > only way these quotes make any real sense to me. help. ONS C > > > with its Ammachi, nierika@a... wrote: > > > > > > cal wrote: > > > > > ...Certainly I do not see value in casting the idea of 'duty' in such > > >> negative terms as 'scorching the tender plant of spirituality'... > > > > Dear cal and all ~ I think I must have missed something. As usual > I'm way > > behind on the digests. :::sigh::: Sometimes we parse the meanings of > words too > > much, I believe. I looked up "duty" in the dictionary, and the > meanings were > > quite various: from "moral obligation" to > > "an act or a course of action that is required of one by position, > social > > custom, law, or religion." > > > > As householders (those of us who are) we have many "duties": provide > for > > ourselves and our children, do our work well at our jobs and at > home; take care > > of ourselves and our children (physical and emotional needs); keep > our homes > > clean; and for some, be good role models for our children; > contribute in some > > way to our neighborhoods, communities, nation, or our chosen > spirituality > > belief system. > > > > I have read many accounts where Amma has asked a devotee at the > Ashram to do > > something specific (duty?) like feed the cows. Then when the person > does not > > do it, Amma does it Herself. Why does She do this? To model > behavior, not > > only "duty" (doing what one has been asked), but also to model > selfless > > service. There are a lot of things we do that probably we'd rather > not do (like > > cleaning the toilet), but we do them anyway. Why? Do we clean the > toilet out of a > > desire to perform selfless service? Well maybe some who are quite > advanced > > in their spiritual development. But, speaking for myself, I don't > particularly > > like cleaning the toilet, and when I do it, it is because it needs > to be > > done (duty). > > > > There is an ancient tradition in India of parents (I think this has > probably > > mostly applied to wealthy parents, but perhaps, in the backstory of > history, > > it was initially something all parents did) ... anyway, parents > send their > > young sons off to the ashram of the family guru. Children who may > have been > > pampered are now required to shave their heads, dawn the dhoti of a > renunciate, > > and begin to learn spiritual practices. I'm sure many parents have not > > wanted to send their young sons off for this austere life (actually, > the movie, > > "Ramayana," originally made as a series for Indian television shows > the mothers > > ... back then the king or head honcho had more than one wife ... > crying, > > holding onto their sons, and with great reluctance, finally letting > them go. Why > > do they do this? Some, at least, certainly don't want to. I'm pretty > sure > > that the previously pampered sons don't really want to go live this > austere > > lifestye. So why do they do it? Duty, tradition...and part of what > the children > > are learning about is duty. > > > > At some point of enlightenment, I'm pretty sure that "chopping wood > and > > carrying water" becomes, not a duty, but a sacred act of selfless > service. We are > > all on the road, but while we are learning, I believe the idea of > duty plays > > an important role, especially for our little ego-driven monkey > minds. I, of > > course, am not talking about a hairsuit, self flagellation > relationship to > > duty, but the attitude of a learner. Do all of us do everything > with a free > > sense of selfless service? I, at least, have not reached that level > yet. We make > > commitments, and to carry out those commitments, we rely on our > sense of > > duty, and if we've had good role modeling from our parents, we > follow through. > > Then we get the role modeling of the guru and begin to learn this > idea of > > selfless service. But in between the duty and the selfless service, > I believe > > there are a lot of steps, not all of them easy. Jai Ma ~ Linda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Namah Shivaya vallathnkumar, I am thinking about how to accept that duty 'scorches' spirituality while at the same time acknowledging that Amma makes constructive use of it. I understand that duty is not an ideal condition. But I also see, as Amma does, that the condition of duty can be very useful to us...to seed awareness, to catalyse spiritual deepening, or simply to give us us something to do while other spirit keys fall into place. I return myself to Amma's deep love and wisdom. Jai MA! Ammachi, "vallathnkumar" <vallathn@h...> wrote: > > Here are my thoughts: > > I agree with Swami Vivekananda that duty scorches spirituality. In > the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna says: > sarvadharmam parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja > aham tva sarvapapebhyo moksayisyami ma sucah > "Abandon all dharma and take refuge in Me alone; > I shall liberate you from all sins; grieve not". > Dharma is frequently translated here as 'duty'. Duty stems from a > feeling of obligation, and spirituality to me means freedom from > obligation. A child is not assigned duties. A childlike enjoyment of > the world, free of all duties (including 'selfless service') is what I > would like to have until final moksha. Duties are burdens. If my > naturally flowing actions are of some benefit to someone, that would > be a happy accident. > Frequently the joy that we get from doing our duty is actually the joy > when the weight of the burden is eased, and it is temporary; the next > day we feel that there are even more duties to be done. Amma assigns > duties to release feelings of obligation and to give people something > to do at the times that they cannot be still, or are dry inside. > > Anyway, just my two cents. > > Nandu > > Ammachi, "cal_ewing" <cal_ewing> wrote: > > > > > > Thank you Linda, we obviously feel similarly about the value of duty. > > I'm curious though...what then is the value of the quote? The specific > > metaphor of duty 'scorching' spirituality is baffling to me. In my > > mind, if a reasonable interpretation of the metaphor isn't appropriate > > or warranted what use is the metaphor? The same could said for the > > other two quotes. I see collectively they evidence a deep frustration > > and anger, a lack of acceptance. More darkly, I can imagine a presumed > > guru propping up his/her stature by dishing out these ego-driven > > proclamations to acolytes. Not a very pleasent thought, but it's the > > only way these quotes make any real sense to me. help. ONS C > > > > > > with its Ammachi, nierika@a... wrote: > > > > > > > > > cal wrote: > > > > > > > ...Certainly I do not see value in casting the idea of 'duty' > in such > > > >> negative terms as 'scorching the tender plant of spirituality'... > > > > > > Dear cal and all ~ I think I must have missed something. As usual > > I'm way > > > behind on the digests. :::sigh::: Sometimes we parse the meanings of > > words too > > > much, I believe. I looked up "duty" in the dictionary, and the > > meanings were > > > quite various: from "moral obligation" to > > > "an act or a course of action that is required of one by position, > > social > > > custom, law, or religion." > > > > > > As householders (those of us who are) we have many "duties": provide > > for > > > ourselves and our children, do our work well at our jobs and at > > home; take care > > > of ourselves and our children (physical and emotional needs); keep > > our homes > > > clean; and for some, be good role models for our children; > > contribute in some > > > way to our neighborhoods, communities, nation, or our chosen > > spirituality > > > belief system. > > > > > > I have read many accounts where Amma has asked a devotee at the > > Ashram to do > > > something specific (duty?) like feed the cows. Then when the person > > does not > > > do it, Amma does it Herself. Why does She do this? To model > > behavior, not > > > only "duty" (doing what one has been asked), but also to model > > selfless > > > service. There are a lot of things we do that probably we'd rather > > not do (like > > > cleaning the toilet), but we do them anyway. Why? Do we clean the > > toilet out of a > > > desire to perform selfless service? Well maybe some who are quite > > advanced > > > in their spiritual development. But, speaking for myself, I don't > > particularly > > > like cleaning the toilet, and when I do it, it is because it needs > > to be > > > done (duty). > > > > > > There is an ancient tradition in India of parents (I think this has > > probably > > > mostly applied to wealthy parents, but perhaps, in the backstory of > > history, > > > it was initially something all parents did) ... anyway, parents > > send their > > > young sons off to the ashram of the family guru. Children who may > > have been > > > pampered are now required to shave their heads, dawn the dhoti of a > > renunciate, > > > and begin to learn spiritual practices. I'm sure many parents have > not > > > wanted to send their young sons off for this austere life (actually, > > the movie, > > > "Ramayana," originally made as a series for Indian television shows > > the mothers > > > ... back then the king or head honcho had more than one wife ... > > crying, > > > holding onto their sons, and with great reluctance, finally letting > > them go. Why > > > do they do this? Some, at least, certainly don't want to. I'm pretty > > sure > > > that the previously pampered sons don't really want to go live this > > austere > > > lifestye. So why do they do it? Duty, tradition...and part of what > > the children > > > are learning about is duty. > > > > > > At some point of enlightenment, I'm pretty sure that "chopping wood > > and > > > carrying water" becomes, not a duty, but a sacred act of selfless > > service. We are > > > all on the road, but while we are learning, I believe the idea of > > duty plays > > > an important role, especially for our little ego-driven monkey > > minds. I, of > > > course, am not talking about a hairsuit, self flagellation > > relationship to > > > duty, but the attitude of a learner. Do all of us do everything > > with a free > > > sense of selfless service? I, at least, have not reached that level > > yet. We make > > > commitments, and to carry out those commitments, we rely on our > > sense of > > > duty, and if we've had good role modeling from our parents, we > > follow through. > > > Then we get the role modeling of the guru and begin to learn this > > idea of > > > selfless service. But in between the duty and the selfless service, > > I believe > > > there are a lot of steps, not all of them easy. Jai Ma ~ Linda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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