Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 In a message dated 7/18/2005 10:14:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, Ammachi writes: Dear Menoj: What remains to be understood, is how do they know that her birthdate is now known? If it is known now, why not before? Is there a birth document that has been found, or just how is it come to be "known?" While the birthstar may remain the same, how would one explain the year's difference? That cannot be ascribed to lunar versus solar calendar. It seems that there is no birth certificate; otherwise her correct year would have already been known, so how do we know that the year is correct now, and is not another mistake? Avram Message: 19 Tue, 19 Jul 2005 01:25:05 -0000 "manoj_menon" <ammasmon Re: Amma's birthchart, faux birthdate Ammachi, Mike Brooker <patria1818> wrote: > Although I don't consider myself an "ignorant fellow", > I'm wondering about that too. What else could the > Amma organization be hiding, obfuscating, or outright > lying about? If the discrepancy in birth date were > just one or two days, that's one thing. Might have > been a typo error on the part of the Kerala bureau of > vital statistics, or whatever government authority > down there is responsible for issuing birth > certificates. But we're talking about _almost a whole > year_, folks! Amma's biological family may have been > dirt-poor, but they almost certainly weren't > illiterate (kerala has the highest literacy rate in > India, about the same as any western first-world > country). Even if they weren't sure of the date, and > didn't have a calendar hanging on a wall in their > house, they would have had to be living under a rock > not to know what year it was, 1952 or '53. > > Keval In order to understand why the "dates and times" are not accurate, please be aware of a few facts that were prevalent in much of India. 1. Much of the populace of India followed a lunar calendar for events like birth of a child etc. The gregorian calendar is in use today in urban places, but in rural India, lunar rules. 2. The lunar calendar is what is used to calculate jyotish predictions, not the gregorian (solar) calendar. 3. Most folks of that age (born before 1965 approx) do not know their actual birthdates; and if they do, it is only vaguely so. My parents are examples of the same. Going by the nakshatra and the month, they say the birthdate this year is so-and-so. 4. This is the kicker. In all of India then (and in most rural places and maybe some cities too even now), YOU DO NOT NAME THE CHILD AND REGISTER IT'S BIRTH DETAILS with the government office WHILE LEAVING THE HOSPITAL (i.e. assuming the delivery was done in a hospital). The child is named usually after 28 (or 21 or 40) days of birth, and the birth certificate is created "whenever convinient for the parents to go to the birth registrar office". As an aside, ask any Indian who had to apply for his green card in the US, what a nightmare this causes even now! Why, ask me! My birth certificate was created in Malayalam with a name "Sai Narayanan alias Manojkumar Menon", and that too a good 2-3 years after I was born, because it was needed for me to be admitted to school! As for making it "convinient" for US authorities to understand, I had to fax and fedex affidavits proving my birth date and name in the certificate are legal and representative of me, and why "official" name is on the right side of the "alias" and not the left side. > I'm wondering about that too. What else could the Amma organization > be hiding, obfuscating, or outright lying about? To put it explicitly, all this means is that the documentation of the event of a birth is an entirely different universe in India than it is in most developed countries, SO PLEASE DO NOT JUDGE SNIPPETS OF FACTS suspiciously. I know the above statement was well-intentioned, and hopefully my response has helped clarify things a bit. I believe, this is the major cause for the confusion in the recording of the CORRECT GREGORIAN DATE IN MOST BIRTH EVENTS from India, and Amma's also. As for hiding or obfuscating, I know what they are thinking - it must be something like this: " it's a pain and a waste of energy and time to explain all of this to all the people who come asking questions like this, so why even let them know about this? ignorance is bliss! Besides, folks would be better off using their time contemplating spiritual truths which is why they came here in the first place." I would have thought likewise too, considering how much time I spent typing this mail (and if I had to do this over and over again till the end of time whenever somebody asked me a question like this). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Hi Avram, These are good questions... I do not have a factual answer for the date discrepancy in Amma's case. There ain't any birth document that I am aware of. All they are doing is to interpret events that happened in Amma's life, and back-track to the date of birth. Oct 7, 1952 seems to be the best fit. I can't figure out why they had to start this activity in the 1st place ..... My response was only to words like "suspicious" and "obfuscation". Before we all start distrusting everything about Amma, I thought I will add that such things happen fairly frequently with Indians, not just Keralaites (much much more than you can imagine!) especially if an Indian is expected to prove his birth-date by the western calendar. Having said that, I agree it's a shame that in Amma's case the date was not found out correctly and in time (especially because of the grand celebrations on 27th sep 2003). I can also see why people would have felt short-changed too (not by Amma per se, but the whole birthday thing, and that too when Amma and the org knew about it). It bothered me a bit too initially, but I am not unduly worried. Because 1. Amma did not want any extraordinary birthday event in the 1st place 2. Amma often says every day is special, not just the important days. So from that timeless point of view, one day is as good as another. 3. Amma conceded to the wishes, and skillfully used it as a group prayer event for "Lokah Samasthah Sukhino Bhavantu" and other powerful prayers for world peace. (Avram, after reading this, please don't trigger off reporting the suicide rates in Kerala inspite of this! . ). 4. She also launched a series of progressive programs, conducted free mass marriages, provided legal services etc for the poor and the needy. 5. Not to mention the tiring schedule she kept for herself in those four-five days. (read also the incident reported by Swamini in the book "Sacred Journey"). Looks like if devotees could feel short-changed, then Amma willingly short-changed herself a far far greater deal, and probably for the devotees only. as i see no ulterior motive in all this, I am not unduly worried. Hope this consoles your grappling mind too. . Jai Ma! Ammachi, sprose1@a... wrote: > In a message dated 7/18/2005 10:14:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, > Ammachi writes: > > Dear Menoj: > > What remains to be understood, is how do they know that her birthdate is now > known? If it is known now, why not before? Is there a birth document that > has been found, or just how is it come to be "known?" While the birthstar may > remain the same, how would one explain the year's difference? That cannot be > ascribed to lunar versus solar calendar. It seems that there is no birth > certificate; otherwise her correct year would have already been known, so how do we > know that the year is correct now, and is not another mistake? Avram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Dear Amma's children, ***Please forgive any mistakes I have made due to egoistic understanding, and please let truth only shine through my heart always. Vishnu also has been known to alter time and create alternate universes overlaying the current one so that certain people become confused and disoriented. Amma is an expansion of Vishnu sometimes, and sometimes Vishnu is an expansion of Amma. Vishnu can create the whole universe so that everyone hates Amma. And Amma can make that happen too. So unless you are a Rishi who knows all of time, it is best to be very humble in these days and replace doubts with faith and trust that amidst all the maya, we be taken to the supreme knowledge, which is God. Devotees fall into several categories. Like a popsicle. The ice cream truck (Amma) has driven down the street with some good bhajans going. We feel the searing heat and go to get a popsicle to releave our thirst and get coolness. The ice cream guy hands us the popsicle after paying our 50 cents. 1. This devotee looks curiously at the popsical and says, "isn't it colorful? See how shiny it is! I'm going to put it on my alter right now!". And he did, and it eventually melted. 2. This devotee is a dullard and doesn't really read, but can feel the cold underneath the wrapper so he unwraps it and find an even shinier layer underneath, saying, "Mine is much shinier than yours". So he shows everyone and takes it to the shrine room. Unfortunately, it melted also. 3. This devotee carefully scrutinized the ingredients of the popsicle to see whether it agreed with his vegan diet and lifestyle first, and then explained the merits of fructose to all his friends for hours. "This is why you should eat popsicles, because it has Fructose!", he preached. And after several hours of analytic chemistry speeches, the popsicle melted. 4. This devotee felt nothing but heat everywhere and in a divine mood eats the popsicle wrapper and all! But he didn't really taste the wrapper because it was so thin, instead he tasted the juicy inside completely with a huge grin on his face. Astonished, the rest of the devotees look at him and think..."what a dork!" They laughed at him because he looked so silly. That's when a little girl who missed the truck comes up and asks him, "why did you eat the outside?". The devotee replies, "because I wanted to eat the recipe to make my own popsicles later, that way I could give one to you... AND eat as many as I like!" So this newsgroup is like the devotees in the story. In order to understand Amma you have to eat Her up on every level through the practice of love and devotion, only then will true knowledge reveal itself to you. Amma has said in many books that She was never born. So if we are really her disciples, then we should sincerely ask the question, "which part of her was never born?". Newsgroups can only take a person into the wrapper. In fact it is like a wrapper to describe a wrapper. But sweetness can only be had by forgetting the intellect and mind and searching for the sweetness within. So which devotee are you? OM Amriteswaryai Namaha Ethen Ammachi, sprose1@a... wrote: > In a message dated 7/18/2005 10:14:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, > Ammachi writes: > > Dear Menoj: > > What remains to be understood, is how do they know that her birthdate is now > known? If it is known now, why not before? Is there a birth document that > has been found, or just how is it come to be "known?" While the birthstar may > remain the same, how would one explain the year's difference? That cannot be > ascribed to lunar versus solar calendar. It seems that there is no birth > certificate; otherwise her correct year would have already been known, so how do we > know that the year is correct now, and is not another mistake? Avram > Message: 19 > Tue, 19 Jul 2005 01:25:05 -0000 > "manoj_menon" <ammasmon@s...> > Re: Amma's birthchart, faux birthdate > > Ammachi, Mike Brooker <patria1818> wrote: > > Although I don't consider myself an "ignorant fellow", > > I'm wondering about that too. What else could the > > Amma organization be hiding, obfuscating, or outright > > lying about? If the discrepancy in birth date were > > just one or two days, that's one thing. Might have > > been a typo error on the part of the Kerala bureau of > > vital statistics, or whatever government authority > > down there is responsible for issuing birth > > certificates. But we're talking about _almost a whole > > year_, folks! Amma's biological family may have been > > dirt-poor, but they almost certainly weren't > > illiterate (kerala has the highest literacy rate in > > India, about the same as any western first-world > > country). Even if they weren't sure of the date, and > > didn't have a calendar hanging on a wall in their > > house, they would have had to be living under a rock > > not to know what year it was, 1952 or '53. > > > > Keval > > In order to understand why the "dates and times" are not accurate, > please be aware of a few facts that were prevalent in much of India. > > 1. Much of the populace of India followed a lunar calendar for events > like birth of a child etc. The gregorian calendar is in use today in > urban places, but in rural India, lunar rules. > 2. The lunar calendar is what is used to calculate jyotish > predictions, not the gregorian (solar) calendar. > 3. Most folks of that age (born before 1965 approx) do not know their > actual birthdates; and if they do, it is only vaguely so. My parents > are examples of the same. Going by the nakshatra and the month, they > say the birthdate this year is so-and-so. > > 4. This is the kicker. > In all of India then (and in most rural places and maybe some cities > too even now), YOU DO NOT NAME THE CHILD AND REGISTER IT'S BIRTH > DETAILS with the government office WHILE LEAVING THE HOSPITAL (i.e. > assuming the delivery was done in a hospital). > The child is named usually after 28 (or 21 or 40) days of birth, and > the birth certificate is created "whenever convinient for the parents > to go to the birth registrar office". > > As an aside, ask any Indian who had to apply for his green card in the > US, what a nightmare this causes even now! Why, ask me! My birth > certificate was created in Malayalam with a name "Sai Narayanan alias > Manojkumar Menon", and that too a good 2-3 years after I was born, > because it was needed for me to be admitted to school! As for making > it "convinient" for US authorities to understand, I had to fax and > fedex affidavits proving my birth date and name in the certificate are > legal and representative of me, and why "official" name is on the > right side of the "alias" and not the left side. > > > > I'm wondering about that too. What else could the Amma organization > > be hiding, obfuscating, or outright lying about? > > To put it explicitly, all this means is that the documentation of the > event of a birth is an entirely different universe in India than it is > in most developed countries, SO PLEASE DO NOT JUDGE SNIPPETS OF FACTS > suspiciously. I know the above statement was well-intentioned, and > hopefully my response has helped clarify things a bit. > > I believe, this is the major cause for the confusion in the recording > of the CORRECT GREGORIAN DATE IN MOST BIRTH EVENTS from India, and > Amma's also. > > As for hiding or obfuscating, I know what they are thinking - it must > be something like this: " it's a pain and a waste of energy and time > to explain all of this to all the people who come asking questions > like this, so why even let them know about this? ignorance is bliss! > Besides, folks would be better off using their time contemplating > spiritual truths which is why they came here in the first place." > > I would have thought likewise too, considering how much time I spent > typing this mail (and if I had to do this over and over again till the > end of time whenever somebody asked me a question like this). > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Dear manoj, Just got back from Boston after a great guru purnima .. regd the b'day - where did you get the oct 7 date from? how do you know that it is true? unless we check with AMMA , you cannot be sure. I dont think its a big issue- regardless of the date She was born, here is a being who loves one and all, and is literally crucifying Herself night and day on Her darshan chair, meeting thousands foregoing food and sleep. Here is a being who hugged nd licked a leper's wounds and cured him, who is spiritually recharging the lives of thousands. Isnt that enough for us? On one day we discuss Amma giving visions of Kali, and on another there are mails asking what the ashram "obfuscates and hides".. all this on a pure rumour. where is our faith or focus? how are we so sure that there is a mistake in the day of Her birth ? do you think She wouldnt have corrected it Herself if She felt that was necessary? why are we distracting ourselves with this issue? bala manoj_menon <ammasmon wrote: Hi Avram, These are good questions... I do not have a factual answer for the date discrepancy in Amma's case. There ain't any birth document that I am aware of. All they are doing is to interpret events that happened in Amma's life, and back-track to the date of birth. Oct 7, 1952 seems to be the best fit. I can't figure out why they had to start this activity in the 1st place ..... My response was only to words like "suspicious" and "obfuscation". Before we all start distrusting everything about Amma, I thought I will add that such things happen fairly frequently with Indians, not just Keralaites (much much more than you can imagine!) especially if an Indian is expected to prove his birth-date by the western calendar. Having said that, I agree it's a shame that in Amma's case the date was not found out correctly and in time (especially because of the grand celebrations on 27th sep 2003). I can also see why people would have felt short-changed too (not by Amma per se, but the whole birthday thing, and that too when Amma and the org knew about it). It bothered me a bit too initially, but I am not unduly worried. Because 1. Amma did not want any extraordinary birthday event in the 1st place 2. Amma often says every day is special, not just the important days. So from that timeless point of view, one day is as good as another. 3. Amma conceded to the wishes, and skillfully used it as a group prayer event for "Lokah Samasthah Sukhino Bhavantu" and other powerful prayers for world peace. (Avram, after reading this, please don't trigger off reporting the suicide rates in Kerala inspite of this! . ). 4. She also launched a series of progressive programs, conducted free mass marriages, provided legal services etc for the poor and the needy. 5. Not to mention the tiring schedule she kept for herself in those four-five days. (read also the incident reported by Swamini in the book "Sacred Journey"). Looks like if devotees could feel short-changed, then Amma willingly short-changed herself a far far greater deal, and probably for the devotees only. as i see no ulterior motive in all this, I am not unduly worried. Hope this consoles your grappling mind too. . Jai Ma! Ammachi, sprose1@a... wrote: > In a message dated 7/18/2005 10:14:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, > Ammachi writes: > > Dear Menoj: > > What remains to be understood, is how do they know that her birthdate is now > known? If it is known now, why not before? Is there a birth document that > has been found, or just how is it come to be "known?" While the birthstar may > remain the same, how would one explain the year's difference? That cannot be > ascribed to lunar versus solar calendar. It seems that there is no birth > certificate; otherwise her correct year would have already been known, so how do we > know that the year is correct now, and is not another mistake? Avram Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! Beliefs of hinduism Different religions beliefs Hinduism religion Ammachi Hinduism Visit your group "Ammachi" on the web. Ammachi Start your day with - make it your home page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Hi Bala, so nice to hear from you! I heard of this date first in some posts in this group around Jul 10 - Jul 17. Here is a post that is most definitive of the same idea (it came about after a lot of discussion about Amma's birthday): Ammachi/message/12180 There are many posts on this topic before 12180 and after that. so enjoy (if a devotee can!) these posts. . Anyway, just to be clear, I do not have the slightest of doubts about Amma. Even though this date issue made me slightly sad, I ask Amma to give me enough faith to see it as Her leela! Jai Ma! Ammachi, balakrishnan Shankar <balakrishnan_sh> wrote: > Dear manoj, > > Just got back from Boston after a great guru purnima .. regd the b'day - where did you get the oct 7 date from? how do you know that it is true? unless we check with AMMA , you cannot be sure. > > I dont think its a big issue- regardless of the date She was born, here is a being who loves one and all, and is literally crucifying Herself night and day on Her darshan chair, meeting thousands foregoing food and sleep. Here is a being who hugged nd licked a leper's wounds and cured him, who is spiritually recharging the lives of thousands. Isnt that enough for us? > > On one day we discuss Amma giving visions of Kali, and on another there are mails asking what the ashram "obfuscates and hides".. all this on a pure rumour. > where is our faith or focus? > how are we so sure that there is a mistake in the day of Her birth ? do you think She wouldnt have corrected it Herself if She felt that was necessary? why are we distracting ourselves with this issue? > > bala > > manoj_menon <ammasmon@s...> wrote: > Hi Avram, > > These are good questions... I do not have a factual answer for the > date discrepancy in Amma's case. There ain't any birth document that > I am aware of. All they are doing is to interpret events that > happened in Amma's life, and back-track to the date of birth. Oct 7, > 1952 seems to be the best fit. I can't figure out why they had to > start this activity in the 1st place ..... > > My response was only to words like "suspicious" and "obfuscation". > Before we all start distrusting everything about Amma, I thought I > will add that such things happen fairly frequently with Indians, not > just Keralaites (much much more than you can imagine!) especially if > an Indian is expected to prove his birth-date by the western > calendar. > > Having said that, I agree it's a shame that in Amma's case the date > was not found out correctly and in time (especially because of the > grand celebrations on 27th sep 2003). I can also see why people > would have felt short-changed too (not by Amma per se, but the whole > birthday thing, and that too when Amma and the org knew about it). > > It bothered me a bit too initially, but I am not unduly worried. > > Because > 1. Amma did not want any extraordinary birthday event in the 1st > place > 2. Amma often says every day is special, not just the important > days. So from that timeless point of view, one day is as good as > another. > 3. Amma conceded to the wishes, and skillfully used it as a group > prayer event for "Lokah Samasthah Sukhino Bhavantu" and other > powerful prayers for world peace. (Avram, after reading this, please > don't trigger off reporting the suicide rates in Kerala inspite of > this! . ). > 4. She also launched a series of progressive programs, conducted > free mass marriages, provided legal services etc for the poor and > the needy. > 5. Not to mention the tiring schedule she kept for herself in those > four-five days. (read also the incident reported by Swamini in the > book "Sacred Journey"). > > Looks like if devotees could feel short-changed, then Amma willingly > short-changed herself a far far greater deal, and probably for the > devotees only. as i see no ulterior motive in all this, I am not > unduly worried. > > Hope this consoles your grappling mind too. . > > Jai Ma! > > Ammachi, sprose1@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 7/18/2005 10:14:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > Ammachi writes: > > > > Dear Menoj: > > > > What remains to be understood, is how do they know that her > birthdate is now > > known? If it is known now, why not before? Is there a birth > document that > > has been found, or just how is it come to be "known?" While the > birthstar may > > remain the same, how would one explain the year's difference? That > cannot be > > ascribed to lunar versus solar calendar. It seems that there is > no birth > > certificate; otherwise her correct year would have already been > known, so how do we > > know that the year is correct now, and is not another mistake? > Avram > > > > > Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! > > > > > Beliefs of hinduism Different religions beliefs Hinduism religion Ammachi Hinduism > > > > > > Visit your group "Ammachi" on the web. > > > Ammachi > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > Start your day with - make it your home page > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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