Guest guest Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 >> > still i am feeling annoyed like having a broken > tooth over the whole > idea of a fabrication of a "better birthchart"....i > think that it > implies a lack of faith in Amma's real abilities and > qualities as a > Mahatma. Speaking of Mahatmas, Oct. 2nd is Gandhi's birthday (1869). > > it's not like Amma needed any real boost in > reputation FROM such > an "improved" birthchart...Her abilities and > qualities stand on their > own, defining Her as the Mahatma that She is.... > > Such falsehoods can only DETRACT from Her reputation > and ignorant > fellows like myself will then ask..."well if they > lied about > this...what else have they lied about?" > Although I don't consider myself an "ignorant fellow", I'm wondering about that too. What else could the Amma organization be hiding, obfuscating, or outright lying about? If the discrepancy in birth date were just one or two days, that's one thing. Might have been a typo error on the part of the Kerala bureau of vital statistics, or whatever government authority down there is responsible for issuing birth certificates. But we're talking about _almost a whole year_, folks! Amma's biological family may have been dirt-poor, but they almost certainly weren't illiterate (kerala has the highest literacy rate in India, about the same as any western first-world country). Even if they weren't sure of the date, and didn't have a calendar hanging on a wall in their house, they would have had to be living under a rock not to know what year it was, 1952 or '53. Were there any rumors swirling at Amritavarsham that the whole thing wasn't really Amma's 50th birthday, that the real event happened in October 2002? Keval (ignore my last message..I accidentally hit "send") __ Start your day with - make it your home page http://www./r/hs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 Namah Shivayah Keval Having the year/day wrong was not entirely uncommon in India back then. My own mother-in-law *thinks* that she was born in 1956, but she is not entirely sure. She *thinks* she was 18 when she was married, but *there's no official record of it* so no one is sure! They did not have to have a marriage license, registration, or anything else. I know that it's hard for us, as westerners, to understand, but that is just how things were. Of course, things have changed now-- my husband had to have a birth certificate before he could start school -- but it wasn't like that back then. My grandfather-in-law had absolutely NO idea what year or month he was born. Sure, if I have been deceived about Amma's birthdate/birth star I'll be upset as well and wonder what else has been fabricated. However, if it is just a simple mistake, that is something entirely different. At Her feet, no matter what year She was born into this body, Erica Ammachi, Mike Brooker <patria1818> wrote: > Although I don't consider myself an "ignorant fellow", > I'm wondering about that too. What else could the > Amma organization be hiding, obfuscating, or outright > lying about? If the discrepancy in birth date were > just one or two days, that's one thing. Might have > been a typo error on the part of the Kerala bureau of > vital statistics, or whatever government authority > down there is responsible for issuing birth > certificates. But we're talking about _almost a whole > year_, folks! Amma's biological family may have been > dirt-poor, but they almost certainly weren't > illiterate (kerala has the highest literacy rate in > India, about the same as any western first-world > country). Even if they weren't sure of the date, and > didn't have a calendar hanging on a wall in their > house, they would have had to be living under a rock > not to know what year it was, 1952 or '53. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 Ammachi, Mike Brooker <patria1818> wrote: > Although I don't consider myself an "ignorant fellow", > I'm wondering about that too. What else could the > Amma organization be hiding, obfuscating, or outright > lying about? If the discrepancy in birth date were > just one or two days, that's one thing. Might have > been a typo error on the part of the Kerala bureau of > vital statistics, or whatever government authority > down there is responsible for issuing birth > certificates. But we're talking about _almost a whole > year_, folks! Amma's biological family may have been > dirt-poor, but they almost certainly weren't > illiterate (kerala has the highest literacy rate in > India, about the same as any western first-world > country). Even if they weren't sure of the date, and > didn't have a calendar hanging on a wall in their > house, they would have had to be living under a rock > not to know what year it was, 1952 or '53. > > Keval In order to understand why the "dates and times" are not accurate, please be aware of a few facts that were prevalent in much of India. 1. Much of the populace of India followed a lunar calendar for events like birth of a child etc. The gregorian calendar is in use today in urban places, but in rural India, lunar rules. 2. The lunar calendar is what is used to calculate jyotish predictions, not the gregorian (solar) calendar. 3. Most folks of that age (born before 1965 approx) do not know their actual birthdates; and if they do, it is only vaguely so. My parents are examples of the same. Going by the nakshatra and the month, they say the birthdate this year is so-and-so. 4. This is the kicker. In all of India then (and in most rural places and maybe some cities too even now), YOU DO NOT NAME THE CHILD AND REGISTER IT'S BIRTH DETAILS with the government office WHILE LEAVING THE HOSPITAL (i.e. assuming the delivery was done in a hospital). The child is named usually after 28 (or 21 or 40) days of birth, and the birth certificate is created "whenever convinient for the parents to go to the birth registrar office". As an aside, ask any Indian who had to apply for his green card in the US, what a nightmare this causes even now! Why, ask me! My birth certificate was created in Malayalam with a name "Sai Narayanan alias Manojkumar Menon", and that too a good 2-3 years after I was born, because it was needed for me to be admitted to school! As for making it "convinient" for US authorities to understand, I had to fax and fedex affidavits proving my birth date and name in the certificate are legal and representative of me, and why "official" name is on the right side of the "alias" and not the left side. > I'm wondering about that too. What else could the Amma organization > be hiding, obfuscating, or outright lying about? To put it explicitly, all this means is that the documentation of the event of a birth is an entirely different universe in India than it is in most developed countries, SO PLEASE DO NOT JUDGE SNIPPETS OF FACTS suspiciously. I know the above statement was well-intentioned, and hopefully my response has helped clarify things a bit. I believe, this is the major cause for the confusion in the recording of the CORRECT GREGORIAN DATE IN MOST BIRTH EVENTS from India, and Amma's also. As for hiding or obfuscating, I know what they are thinking - it must be something like this: " it's a pain and a waste of energy and time to explain all of this to all the people who come asking questions like this, so why even let them know about this? ignorance is bliss! Besides, folks would be better off using their time contemplating spiritual truths which is why they came here in the first place." I would have thought likewise too, considering how much time I spent typing this mail (and if I had to do this over and over again till the end of time whenever somebody asked me a question like this). Jai Ma! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 Along these lines. You should see the variety of dates given for Sri Ramakrishna's birth! The nuns at Sarada Devi's temple give one date. The Ramakrishna Math gives another. The western scholars give another. And it is not just lunar vs solar calendars. There is also a separate Bengali lunar calendar. We went through this this year when we at the Devi Mandir wanted to celebrate his birthday. We were told that the Bengali lunar calendar was the one to use. On Jul 18, 2005, at 6:25 PM, manoj_menon wrote: > Ammachi, Mike Brooker <patria1818> wrote: > > Although I don't consider myself an "ignorant fellow", > > I'm wondering about that too. What else could the > > Amma organization be hiding, obfuscating, or outright > > lying about? If the discrepancy in birth date were > > just one or two days, that's one thing. Might have > > been a typo error on the part of the Kerala bureau of > > vital statistics, or whatever government authority > > down there is responsible for issuing birth > > certificates. But we're talking about _almost a whole > > year_, folks! Amma's biological family may have been > > dirt-poor, but they almost certainly weren't > > illiterate (kerala has the highest literacy rate in > > India, about the same as any western first-world > > country). Even if they weren't sure of the date, and > > didn't have a calendar hanging on a wall in their > > house, they would have had to be living under a rock > > not to know what year it was, 1952 or '53. > > > > Keval > > In order to understand why the "dates and times" are not accurate, > please be aware of a few facts that were prevalent in much of India. > > 1. Much of the populace of India followed a lunar calendar for events > like birth of a child etc. The gregorian calendar is in use today in > urban places, but in rural India, lunar rules. > 2. The lunar calendar is what is used to calculate jyotish > predictions, not the gregorian (solar) calendar. > 3. Most folks of that age (born before 1965 approx) do not know their > actual birthdates; and if they do, it is only vaguely so. My parents > are examples of the same. Going by the nakshatra and the month, they > say the birthdate this year is so-and-so. > > 4. This is the kicker. > In all of India then (and in most rural places and maybe some cities > too even now), YOU DO NOT NAME THE CHILD AND REGISTER IT'S BIRTH > DETAILS with the government office WHILE LEAVING THE HOSPITAL (i.e. > assuming the delivery was done in a hospital). > The child is named usually after 28 (or 21 or 40) days of birth, and > the birth certificate is created "whenever convinient for the parents > to go to the birth registrar office". > > As an aside, ask any Indian who had to apply for his green card in the > US, what a nightmare this causes even now! Why, ask me! My birth > certificate was created in Malayalam with a name "Sai Narayanan alias > Manojkumar Menon", and that too a good 2-3 years after I was born, > because it was needed for me to be admitted to school! As for making > it "convinient" for US authorities to understand, I had to fax and > fedex affidavits proving my birth date and name in the certificate are > legal and representative of me, and why "official" name is on the > right side of the "alias" and not the left side. > > > > I'm wondering about that too. What else could the Amma organization > > be hiding, obfuscating, or outright lying about? > > To put it explicitly, all this means is that the documentation of the > event of a birth is an entirely different universe in India than it is > in most developed countries, SO PLEASE DO NOT JUDGE SNIPPETS OF FACTS > suspiciously. I know the above statement was well-intentioned, and > hopefully my response has helped clarify things a bit. > > I believe, this is the major cause for the confusion in the recording > of the CORRECT GREGORIAN DATE IN MOST BIRTH EVENTS from India, and > Amma's also. > > As for hiding or obfuscating, I know what they are thinking - it must > be something like this: " it's a pain and a waste of energy and time > to explain all of this to all the people who come asking questions > like this, so why even let them know about this? ignorance is bliss! > Besides, folks would be better off using their time contemplating > spiritual truths which is why they came here in the first place." > > I would have thought likewise too, considering how much time I spent > typing this mail (and if I had to do this over and over again till the > end of time whenever somebody asked me a question like this). > > Jai Ma! > > > > > Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! > > > > > > > ▪  Visit your group "Ammachi" on the web. >  > ▪  >  Ammachi >  > ▪  Terms of > Service. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 Dear Keval, Same thing pertains to my mom too. She has no birth certificate since she was born in village. My maternal grandparents had no idea what year or month it was. Pre-condition for any marriage was puberty. These people were farmers and only concerned about seasons (monsoon, spring etc). My mom has an approx date of birth on her passport. I won't be surprised if there are many poor Indians exisitng who are ignorant of current year and month. Aum Avinash. --- Erica <sugarandbrine wrote: > Namah Shivayah Keval > > Having the year/day wrong was not entirely uncommon > in India back > then. My own mother-in-law *thinks* that she was > born in 1956, but she > is not entirely sure. She *thinks* she was 18 when > she was married, > but *there's no official record of it* so no one is > sure! They did not > have to have a marriage license, registration, or > anything else. I > know that it's hard for us, as westerners, to > understand, but that is > just how things were. > > Of course, things have changed now-- my husband had > to have a birth > certificate before he could start school -- but it > wasn't like that > back then. My grandfather-in-law had absolutely NO > idea what year or > month he was born. > > Sure, if I have been deceived about Amma's > birthdate/birth star I'll > be upset as well and wonder what else has been > fabricated. However, if > it is just a simple mistake, that is something > entirely different. > > At Her feet, no matter what year She was born into > this body, > Erica > > Ammachi, Mike Brooker > <patria1818> wrote: > > Although I don't consider myself an "ignorant > fellow", > > I'm wondering about that too. What else could the > > Amma organization be hiding, obfuscating, or > outright > > lying about? If the discrepancy in birth date > were > > just one or two days, that's one thing. Might > have > > been a typo error on the part of the Kerala bureau > of > > vital statistics, or whatever government authority > > down there is responsible for issuing birth > > certificates. But we're talking about _almost a > whole > > year_, folks! Amma's biological family may have > been > > dirt-poor, but they almost certainly weren't > > illiterate (kerala has the highest literacy rate > in > > India, about the same as any western first-world > > country). Even if they weren't sure of the date, > and > > didn't have a calendar hanging on a wall in their > > house, they would have had to be living under a > rock > > not to know what year it was, 1952 or '53. > > > > __ Start your day with - make it your home page http://www./r/hs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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