Dayamrita on Amma's Leadership Style

[Guest guest]

I interviewed Dayamritaswamy about Amma's leadership style on

Saturday, Feb 26. My original proposal indicated that I'd be

looking at Amma's leadership as matriarchal, non-hierarchical and

non-authoritarian since these are commonly believed to be ways that

women lead. I discussed only those aspects with Dayamrita, as

follows:

 

Amma's Leadership Style

 

Interview with Brahmachari Dayamrita

 

M.A. Center, Castro Valley, CA. February 26, 2005.

 

 

 

I received Dayamritaswami's permission to tape our discussion,

turned on the tape, and we began.

 

Aikya: I was working on the paper Friday and I think I may have

leapt to some conclusions which may not be right, so I wanted to

see. When Sw. Ramakrishnananda was here, he talked about Amma

asking the Swamis their opinion about having engineering colleges

and he told how they all said `No, no, no" because they don't have

enough time to meditate as it is so they didn't want to get into a

big project like that, so they told Amma, "No, it is not a good

idea." But now there are all the schools and they are so successful

and so on. So I got the idea that at least sometimes when Amma's

thinking of a project, she just asks everybody "What do you think

about this?" until there are enough people (who think that it is a

good idea) who can actually make it happen. Does that sometimes

happen?

 

Dayamrita. Generally, if Amma wants something to happen, people

will just turn up. The right people will turn up for the task. I

just happens like that.

 

Aikya; In other organizations that I have been in, pretty much the

leader gives directions and then everybody does things. It feels,

when you are far away from Amma, that there is more participation

and less top down direction, but I'm not sure if that is correct.

What do you think?

 

Dayamrita: You mean here?

 

Aikya; Yes, here.

 

Dayamrita: Yes, that is correct.

 

Aikya: Which part is correct?

 

Dayamrita: (That there is) More participation and less top down and

then too everybody has the ability to go and talk to Amma. And so,

if they had some doubt that what they are doing, whatever they are

doing is wrong, they just go and talk to Amma.and get that corrected.

 

Aikya: But, of course, Amma has the authority. That' s not a

questioned thing at all.

 

Dayamrita: It's not like an authoritative figure, but the authority

comes because of love and we give her the authority.. So it's not

that she is emphasizing that "See, I am the CEO here."

 

Aikya: And she is also the authority because of who She is and what

she understands.

 

Dayajmrita: Right.

 

Aikya: And that is something that the other person recognizes in

Her rather than that she demands.

 

Dayamrita: Right. And, if there is a person who doesn't believe in

Her, She doesn't say anything. It doesn't make a difference.

 

Aikya: Does She work with people who don't believe in Her? – Yes,

she works with people who don't believe in Her. She working with

the government of Kerala to get the houses (for homeless tsunami

victims) and I don't know how crazy they are about Her.

 

Dayamrita: Most of the time she works with people who don't believe

in Her. I mean, how many person have the correct belief? Very few.

 

Aikya: I don't know about hierarchy. It's sort of loose, isn't it?

 

Dayamrita: Yes.

 

Aikya: There sort of is one, but.

 

Dayamrita: Exactly, and nobody is here to enforce it.

 

Aikya: Can you think of something that you would say is very unique

about how Amma leads?

 

Dayamrita: Most (other) situations that we are in are like work. If

we make a mistake, we are either fired, or we are given a

punishment, and our job is changed. They put you in a different

place or something like that, but Amma does nothing like that. She

knows that we make mistakes and, even if we make mistakes, she

corrects us lovingly and says, "Don't repeat it again." There were

many times I experienced that.

 

Aikya: You can't be excommunicated or fired.

 

Dayamrita: Right So the responsibility is more (he points to

himself with both hands) that we should not commit mistakes.

Some things that Amma says are very subtle. For instance,

she wouldn't say you have to do it. It doesn't matter whether it's

a big thing or a small thing. Many times we feel we look only the

big picture, whereas Amma looks at the small detail.

For example, last November, one day just out of the blue,

I was next to Amma that morning. She turned around and she asked

me, "Did you clean the bathroom today?" Luckily, I had that day.

Luckily, I did. I had thousand other jobs that day. She didn't ask

about all those things. "Did you call so-and-so, some big shot, and

ask him to come?" That was not the question. It was just this

simple thing: did you clean the bathroom?

 

Aikya: You know they talk about Patriarchy? Can we talk about this

as a matriarchy? Any thoughts on that?

Dayamrita: No, because Mother is a female figure doesn't mean that

it's a matriarchy. You know matriarchy is the other side of the coin

of patriarchy.

 

Aikya: If it is…

 

Dayamrita: If it is…I mean, what is the difference? In one you

have a female figure instead of a male figure and you have been

rating a female figure instead of a male figure.

 

Aikya: Yes, that is why some people don't like the term at all. I

am following one particular scholar who is talking about a situation

in which the source is female so that either it is a community that

looks at God as female or Mother, and the other part of it is that

it is not power over but (power used in) nurturing and regenerating

the society. In her view that is what a matriarchy is and she has

some examples in Indonesia among the Minankabau. In those terms it

works I think.

 

Dayamrita: Right. If it is in a particular structure of society,

then it would work, but here (in the U.S.) there is no structure as

such.

 

Aikya: In this culture everybody else is operating in a patriarchy.

Dayamrita: Then also in India, women were always respected. The

culture was to respect women.

 

Aikya: In Kerala.

 

Dayamrita: Yes, all over India. The culture was like that. The

first one to be worshipped was your mother. Then only you worship

your father. God comes later. Then your teacher; then God. God

comes fourth. So in that one sense, it is correct but also,

following the cultural value of seeing the godliness in everybody,

especially women.

 

Aikya: I feel that the way Amma leads is very beneficial because it

allows people maximum responsibility and the field is open for them

to make whatever contributions they want to make. You've been in

the organization for a long time. Can you add to that?

 

Dayamrita: As I said before, the greatest example is that, when we

make a mistake, Amma just shows us that mistake and asks us to

correct it. That's number one.

And then the second is sometimes we do things without asking

Amma. Unless it's a big, big major mistake, she doesn't even care

about it. But a (lead) person in an ordinary (authoritarian)

situation would have been so upset if we do something without asking

them. They are supposed o be the authoritative figure. They get so

distressed at a small thing that we must have done without asking

them. Here, Amma doesn't care. I've done so many things, many

times without asking Amma and she doesn't get upset. Also, she

watches. She watches us also whether we are doing things correctly

or not. Sometimes she lets the rope loose. She allows us to take

the decision on our own.

 

*****************

 

Aikya Param