Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Namah Shivaya. I agree with Ambujam completely. This may sound flippant or patronizing, believe me, it's neither. I am dead serious when I say this below. Just as you saw some ugliness aroud mother, so too everyone sees. And in some people's sight, you may be ugly... think about that, it's a possibility. The Golden rule applies here too. So, if all are potentially expressing some ugliness in some form at some time, then why feel sick about it? We still feel so because it's in our nature to get deluded by these instances; because Maya devi is so powerful that she finds unusual ways for us to get bogged down. That is the whole purpose of her existence. Only when we are truly liberated will we not be affected by the mores of the great Maya devi. (There is another beautiful thought here: We can never get liberated till we propitiate Maya devi and plead with her to help us pass through her veil to the other side. It is said that she responds when the prayer is sincere). That brings me to my yardstick in life: A person is either liberated while living (jivan-mukti) or not. such a being is perfect. if not, he is either striving for the same or not. in either case, expect to see imperfection. About the jivanmukti, expect to see perfection, but perfection does not necessarily mean what we perceive. Great avadhuts have acted in some of the strangest (to our worldly eyes) manner possible. It is not possible to understand them. Let me give an example. Akkalkot (means brain-shot) Maharaj, a great mystic, used the choiciest of abuse language when teaching to his disciple, or communicating in general. There is no point trying to understand why he did what he did; WHAT MATTERS IS HOW YOU FEEL IN HIS PRESENCE. (I won't elaborate on this so that you can think more). Jai Ma! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Manoj-ji, It is a little patronizing, but I understand your point. When I am with Amma, I feel her love. But, as I have said on more than one occasion, love isn't all that is important in relationships (marriage or otherwise). There has to be respect and understanding, as well as similar life circumstances. Two people can love each other very much, but have a hard time working themselves into harmony regarding life circumstances. How can one focus on Amma's love when others around are arguing that they want to have darshan? I am probably bringing this onto myself when I say that I feel like an outsider from the 'cliques'. I never liked the cliques, in high school or in the office. Amma says that satsang is very important and a good way for us to keep connected with her, but is that the answer for everyone? Hardly. The satsangs have more agenda than only spiritual practice. All of the seva business gets me too. I understand that it is very important for us to all do our part for the programs, but why should I be made to feel guilty for saying no? Because Amma is saying that there will be some terrible disaster, people are praying intensely. Maybe I am starting to doubt. Perhaps I am too sensitive. I concede to that. I am just trying to think logically now. So much of this is being pushed as "having faith" in Amma, but is it bad for us to question? People who question are told that they are too negative, they don't have enough faith, etc. When I stop having the ability to openly question the practices of a group is when I start to feel it's a little bit over the top. Not meant to offend. I am simply trying to understand and to find a balance. With love, Erica Ammachi, "manoj_menon" <ammasmon@s...> wrote: > Namah Shivaya. > > I agree with Ambujam completely. > > This may sound flippant or patronizing, believe me, it's neither. I > am dead serious when I say this below. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Ammachi, "Erica" <sugarandbrine> wrote: > It is a little patronizing, but I understand your point. When I am > with Amma, I feel her love. But, as I have said on more than one > occasion, love isn't all that is important in relationships (marriage > or otherwise). There has to be respect and understanding, as well as > similar life circumstances. Two people can love each other very much, > but have a hard time working themselves into harmony regarding life > circumstances. The way I see it...Amma's children are my family. Through my interactions with all of you, I experience tremendous grace. And I also am presented with deep challenges that test me, teach me, and help me to grow. Amma once told me that whenever I start to get annoyed with another person, to not find the fault in them, but to look within myself, because that's where the root of the problem is. Sometimes, I forget to do this is my everyday life...but in satsang or at Amma's programs...I'm very concious of it all being a lesson for me. > How can one focus on Amma's love when others around are arguing that > they want to have darshan? So, I would ask you: what is it *in you* that's stopping you from focusing on Amma's love? > All of the seva business gets me too. I understand that it is very > important for us to all do our part for the programs, but why should > I be made to feel guilty for saying no? You receive your own guidance to know when you need to say 'yes' and when you need to say 'no.' What do you have to feel guilty about, if you're listening to your heart? > I am simply trying to understand and to find a balance. A balance of what? Namah Shivaya, Iswari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Hi Erica, Please read below for my answers. Ammachi, "Erica" <sugarandbrine> wrote: > Manoj-ji, > > It is a little patronizing, but I understand your point. When I am > with Amma, I feel her love. But, as I have said on more than one > occasion, love isn't all that is important in relationships (marriage > or otherwise). There has to be respect and understanding, as well as > similar life circumstances. Two people can love each other very much, > but have a hard time working themselves into harmony regarding life > circumstances. Somehow I felt it would be taken as patronizing, hence the disclaimer in the original message. Obviously, you think otherwise, that's okay. no grudges. Not sure what the reference to love w.r.t respect and understanding is, especially between two people. I thought this topic was about " interactions with other Amma devotees" that were distressing. but still, the point about the two people genuinely in love but still having a tough time is valid and I have seen that happen often. IMHO, genuine love (the adjective genuine is redundant with the noun love) encompasses respect and understanding under its scope. look at Amma; does not Her love for all include compassion, respect etc for each one of us? That is what you want to emulate. > > How can one focus on Amma's love when others around are arguing that > they want to have darshan? I am taking it that this is not a rhetorical question, and hence answering..... perhaps these are the buttons that Amma is pushing in that person - to burn up the ego. > > I am probably bringing this onto myself when I say that I feel like > an outsider from the 'cliques'. I never liked the cliques, in high > school or in the office. Amma says that satsang is very important and > a good way for us to keep connected with her, but is that the answer > for everyone? Hardly. The satsangs have more agenda than only > spiritual practice. More agenda, maybe. But I would say this: don't throw the BABY ( lasting commitment to spiritual life; moments of bliss sometimes) out with the bath water (other agenda). Go for the satsang, if you can. Discern the two and be with the BABY. > > All of the seva business gets me too. I understand that it is very > important for us to all do our part for the programs, but why should > I be made to feel guilty for saying no? I have said 'No' to seva before and never felt guilty about it; I do what I can. you must have your reasons for not doing it. there should not be any reason for you to feel guilty, especially because someone else wants you to behave in one way or the other. that is B.S. > > Because Amma is saying that there will be some terrible disaster, > people are praying intensely. Maybe I am starting to doubt. > > Perhaps I am too sensitive. I concede to that. I am just trying to > think logically now. So much of this is being pushed as "having > faith" in Amma, but is it bad for us to question? People who question > are told that they are too negative, they don't have enough faith, > etc. When I stop having the ability to openly question the practices > of a group is when I start to feel it's a little bit over the top. > I get it now; it is indeed your sensitivity to the (perceived) negative things happening around Amma that is making you say such defensive statements. You need to find your "space" or "comfort zone" with these events. They will be there; you can't wash them away. It may take some time, and may be painful, but you will find that space. Unfortunately, I have nothing to help you with. I will pray for you though. . > Not meant to offend. I am simply trying to understand and to find a > balance. > > With love, > Erica Jai Ma! manoj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Manoj (et all), My answers below. > Not sure what the reference to love w.r.t respect and understanding > is, especially between two people. I thought this topic was about " > interactions with other Amma devotees" that were distressing. but > still, the point about the two people genuinely in love but still > having a tough time is valid and I have seen that happen often. > > IMHO, genuine love (the adjective genuine is redundant with the noun > love) encompasses respect and understanding under its scope. look at > Amma; does not Her love for all include compassion, respect etc for > each one of us? That is what you want to emulate. What I meant by my reference is "sometimes love ain't enough". I love Amma, but this other "stuff" that comes with it is very distressing to me and definitely plays a role in my devotion to her. There is no way for me to separate Amma from these extra things. They are all part of the package. > I am taking it that this is not a rhetorical question, and hence > answering..... perhaps these are the buttons that Amma is pushing in that person - to burn up the ego. "Burning up the ego" is an interesting phrase. Can the ego truly be burned up? If the ego is like a fruit on a tree, it must ripen and fall off as the sun hits it. We cannot force the fruit to ripen by beating it with a stick! When we keep the ego in check, this is usually by supressing it. In turn, the ego comes out even stronger the next time. Is this truly the way to enlighenment? > More agenda, maybe. But I would say this: don't throw the BABY ( > lasting commitment to spiritual life; moments of bliss sometimes) > out with the bath water (other agenda). Go for the satsang, if you > can. Discern the two and be with the BABY. I guess I do not have the same ideals about spiritual commitment. Moments of bliss are only "sometimes", whereas pain is more often? How is this spiritual/religious/helpful? Pain doesn't help. To me, God is LOVE. God isn't about pain. I have difficulty going for the satsang and keeping myself from throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I will admit that. > I have said 'No' to seva before and never felt guilty about it; I > do what I can. you must have your reasons for not doing it. there > should not be any reason for you to feel guilty, especially because > someone else wants you to behave in one way or the other. that is > B.S. There is a definite seva culture amongst the Amma devotees. People say that seva is devotion...seva is good for us...seva is holy. Amma does seva for us so we should reciprocate. I think that if I want to go to a retreat and not do seva, that should be my choice. If I am standing in line for my darshan token, I shouldn't be approached and asked if I've seen Amma before and, after I say yes, be asked if I've done my seva duties. AND, when I say no, I shouldn't be scoffed at NOR be subject to raised eyebrows! The whole culture amongst the devotees is that seva is our DUTY. Perhaps not everyone's karma, ego, etc leads to their feeling the pull to seva. Not all devotees are the same. If Eastern thought has taught me anything, it is that we should all respect where we are starting from. I respect that I am starting from a place of intense pain and issues surrounding that, and I can't allow myself to be subjected to further pain in the name of "spirituality". > I get it now; it is indeed your sensitivity to the (perceived) > negative things happening around Amma that is making you say such > defensive statements. I don't think that my statements are particularly defensive. I'm simply asking and questioning. > You need to find your "space" or "comfort zone" with these events. > They will be there; you can't wash them away. It may take some time, and may be painful, but you will find that space. This is exactly what I'm struggling to find and what I was referring to when I said that I was trying to find the balance. I'm trying to find out how much of a role I want Amma to play in my life, if at all. My statements are not meant to offend. Please understand that I am curious. With love, Erica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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