Guest guest Posted June 7, 2004 Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 Namah Shivaya..... Where is the monitor for Ammachi not our brothers taken this entire topic TOOOOOO far ? Why speculate and argue over humankind................should we not be working toward spiritual matters. Please stop !!! Keval, Sprouse, Avram, & Avinash......please take your concerns to a private chat.......and do not disrupt those of us who prefer to stay our of your quarrels. I feel like I am again observing grade school playground time between the boys who are throwing bigger and bigger snow balls at each other, and no one knows which team they belong.....and there are many rocks in the middle of the snow balls. Amritavarshini On Monday, June 7, 2004, at 06:18 PM, sprose1 wrote: > In a message dated 6/7/04 2:45:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > Ammachi writes: > Dear Avinash: > I would like to respond herewith to your post. I do not want to > trouble this > list with a protracted and contentious dialogue, so I will be to- the > -point > only. > >> Dear Keval: >> >> I am not aware of the inner workings of the Hindu Fundamentalists and >> Indian >> >> politics in general. >> >> Well, that should answer everything. > > -Not quite everything. > >> >> What I am concerned about, however, is the on-going >> prosecution of Sreeni Pattathanam, his publisher and editor, for >> writing a >> book >> critical of Amma. >> >> Sreeni Pattathnam cristicism was written in 1985, so nothing is new, >> Sreeni >> is a typical Marxist. > > I believe it is the reprinting of the book a few years ago that > brought about > the present troubles. I agree that the book is not new. > >> >> It is actually a devotee, at Amritapuri, who has brought the >> suit, but I doubt he would have done it against Her wishes. >> >> I would very much be interested to take part in that. >> >> Likewise, Head >> Swami started a letter-writing campaign against this man, >> >> Everybody has right to defend themselves. >> >> which felt quite >> threatening to him. >> >> That is his perspective always playing the role of "victim" >> >> Complaining that his book encroaches on religious faith, the >> devotee is trying to use a rarely if ever-used law against attacking >> another's >> religion. Those who died on Normandy defended the right to free >> speech, >> even >> if it is untrue. If that is the case, then there are laws against >> libel. >> The >> book in question is not available outside India. The men, Mr. >> Zachariah >> among >> them, who argue that there are unsavory users around the guru, are >> far from >> fools; >> >> Dude you are too NAIVE. You need to understand Indian politics, but >> can be >> forgiven since you mentioned you are ignorant. >> >> Paul Zachariah is one freaking acid mouth Christian fanatic > -that's very objective of you. So he can't speak without being accused > of > breaking the law? > > who hails from Kerala. He writes reguraly for "Outlook", a > Congress-Christain >> magzine. His views are highly narrow minded and always against >> Hinduism, >> his oppostion against Ammachi is mainly Communal based. > > -And yet he still has the right to express his odious ideas. > >> >> Pat Roberstson or Billy Graham's view about Ammachi would be much >> better >> that P Zachariah's. >> >> I do not know enough about politics to render a decision on this, but >> I >> do believe that people have a right to speak their minds, up to the >> point of >> >> intentionally deceiving others. >> >> BUDDY WAKE UP. Cristicsm agianst Ammachi and Her movement has long >> History, >> it is not something new. Ammachi comes from state of Kerala, Kerala >> had the >> first democratically elected Communist Govt in the world. > - I knew they were communist, but not that they were the first > democratically > elected. Thank you for that. > > Since Marxism is against relegion and Hinduism is the majority > religion, > Hinduism >> is the primary target for Marxists and always at the recieving end. >> It goes >> like this "enemy of my enemy is my freind". Indian Marxists first aim >> is to >> clear Hinduism of India, then go after other minority religions, as a >> result >> is this alliance with Muslims and Christians( who pretty much have >> their own >> plans for India). > > -Well, the Marxists would have a long way to go in India, first off. I > repeat that, despite the desires of the Marxists and Rationalists to > reduce the > influence of Amma, their right to spew forth their ideas is > sacrosanct. When, and > if, they cross the lines of libel, the law should protect the > innocent. We > cannot silence everything people say,even if they appear to be no > good. Am I > naive in that? Why should they not have the right to say what they > want about > Amma? Don't people have a right to love and hate, and to talk about > it? Some > people love Reagan, and some hate Reagan. They both have the right to > speak > here. The criticism of outsiders performs a useful role; it balances > the other > side and keeps it from getting too insular. Checks and balances. If > they > hate Amma, so be it! But, if they lie and slander Her, that's another > story, > and there I agree it should be fought. If they disagree about events > and offer > alternative hypotheses, then what right is there to take them to court? > >> >> Rationalists have written Articles, fliers,pamplets against Ammachi >> form >> 1970's, in fact these people threatend physical voilence against >> devotees. >> They lost their hold in 80's and 90's. Now with their new found >> freinds the >> Keralite Christians (who feel threatend with growing popularity of >> Ammachi) are >> comming into picture. > > - I am well aware of the earlier antagonism against the Ashram. I am > not in > favor of them. >> >> >> This scandal is going to hurt public >> perception, >> >> No body will be hurt, I don't understand your concern. > > --Maybe you are the naive one, about the American public. But, > overall, I > don't think it will be traumatic. I do know one friend who has > reluctantly > decided that he cannot remain a devotee because of the prosecution of > Mr. > Pattathanam. > >> >> and the ashram will likely hide behind the unnamed devotee; >> >> WHAT THE HECK, his name is Amrtaswarup >> - you don't mean the Swami Amrtaswarupananda, do you? I am referring >> to the >> one who is pushing the prosecution... > > and this is what he has written : “The venomous mind of Zackaria has > been > pouring >> forth poison through his pen for quite some time now. He has crossed >> the >> lines of all decency. It is high time to respond to this evil minded >> writer >> befittingly. Amma's children should spring to action now. He >> considers our >> silence as weakness…. We should not let this extremely wicked person >> harass our >> most Beloved Amma who has offered Herself to the world. COME >> ON.......LET US DO >> IT NOW....GATHER AS MANY PEOPLE AS YOU CAN...STOP KEEPING QUIET TO >> THIS >> ADHARMIC PERSON...” >> >> Nobody is hiding nothing. > > - If "nobody is hiding nothing" then why did they take this off the > website? > My guess is that it was seen as an embarrassment, a faux pas. Sw. > Swarupananda was behind this exploit. > >> >> >> >> anyone who >> knows the scene knows that nothing happens there without >> authorization. >> >> I cannot >> understand this and I am upset about it. >> >> You will never understand, and what I don't understand is your >> irrational >> upset. >> >> The teaching is love and >> forgiveness, etc. The Rationalists are atheists who believe that >> religion >> holds people >> back; its their conviction and they have a right to it. They have a >> right >> to >> ask for investigation of deaths and other shadowy things, even if we >> don't >> exactly like it. >> >> Why persecute people for that, if your message is love and >> forgiveness? >> >> GIVE ME A BREAK! No one is getting persecuted. No body is getting >> lynched or >> killed. No Ayotollahs or Mullah Omars in India. > > -You don't have to lynch someone; you can have him brought to trial, > and try > to destroy his livelihood, credibility, etc. > >> >> It's telling that Dayamrita says that Hinduism is not a religion, let >> alone Ammadom. >> >> You need to know basics, Hindusim is not a religion in the sense like >> Christianity, Islam, Judaism which claim exclusive rights for God. >> >> So, the argument that Mr. Pattathanam is guilty of attacking >> religion is patently false, >> >> since the Ashram is registered as a charity, >> >> In India lines between religion and Charity does not exist. >> Ramakrishna >> Mission is a Hindu religious organisation that run schools and >> charities, Kanchi >> mutt is a religious body that runs Nethralaya, >> >> a temple first >> of all, and that Ammaism is not a religion, >> >> There no such thing has "Ammaism" please stop phrasing new fancy, >> cosmetic >> terms. >> >> >> >> since even Hinduism is not a >> religion. >> >> Yes Hinduism is not a religion in CONVENTIONAL SENSE. >> >> She wields a lot of power in Kerala, over police and politicians. >> >> MAN, I cannot comprehend your point, what do mean by "weilds" here. >> Do you >> think Ammachi is going to start some political outfit or she >> occupying some >> country, if she "weilds" so much power as you cailm. > > --I am simply stating the fact that it is hard to go against her > wishes. For > example, her father is accused of trying to take advantage of a female > devotee. He allegedly said that she would not be taken seriously, > since his daughter > is Amma. Do you doubt that, out of respect, and fear, the police and > judicial > system would look away if at all possible? Is that so far from > possibility? > > >> >> >> I understand zealous defense of one's guru. But, the wisdom and sense >> of the >> >> guru should intercede, not conspire with such zealotry. Remember love >> and >> forgiveness? Or, fight a fair fight. Show the truth against the >> allegations. >> Write a counter-book. but attacking the poor man like this is >> shameful IMHO. >> Avram >> >> Dear Avram, I consider you have poor understanding about many issues >> here. >> Weather Ammachi or Indian political situation. No body is attacking >> the >> writer, as I mentioned earlier it was wirtten way back in 1985. He is >> entitled to >> write what ever he likes or he does not like. All the cases where >> closed long >> back and none of the deaths where mysterious. You concern shows as if >> some >> one has issued a fatwa agianst the writer. > > -I am not in favor of the anti-Amma people. I simply don't like the > way he is > being treated, i.e., prosecution for offending the religious > sensibilities of > others. I think a higher road should be tread, such as responding in > honesty > and truth. No, you will not change them, but you will affect the larger > public who is watching this play out. > > > >> >> >> Karl Marx, a German Jew founded Marxism. He said "Religion is opium of >> masses". He based his ideology soley on Christianity and >> Judaism(prevailing >> religions in Europe during his time). Because these religions require >> to have faith >> in one particular book and in one particular god. However Marxism >> never >> applies to Hinduism, since there is no Pope, you can be atheist too. >> But given >> Inferiority complex, low Self Esteem Indians possess, they always >> felt western >> thinking is superior. Hence, there bewitchment with Marxism. Hindusim >> is >> routinely subjected to Marxsistic analysis. Indian arm chaired, >> be-spectacled >> Marxists take pride in their intellectual masturbation. As a result >> there is a >> confilct between religion and charity. Charity is nothing but KARMA >> YOGA, >> essence of Hinduism. >> >> In India I met too many Keralites (I am a Telugu)who swear, verbally >> abuse >> or use street lingo to describe Ammachi. Most of those terms, I >> cannot write >> on this forum. I expereinced worst form of verbal abuse against >> ammachi and I >> always disregarded them. Any new "written" crticsm will not surprise >> me. > > - I don't defend the abuse. I defend their right to the abuse. > >> >> I am seeing Ammachi since 1997. In United States itself I met her 4 >> times >> and this summer its going to be fifth time. Whenever I see ammachi, I >> tend to >> stay in that particular place until Ammachi leaves that station. I >> saw Ammachi >> hugging blacks,browns, whites, orientals, beggars,crippled, deformed, >> cats, >> dogs, snakes, insects etc,who ever comes on her way. I have seen that >> she >> sits in one particular place for 20+ hours without going to restroom, >> hugging >> continously. She is doing this for many years, personally for me >> Fisrt hand >> experience is atleast 7 years, and I AM CONVINCED BEYOND BELIEF that >> Ammachi is >> extraordinary, mind you I nurtured this notion with my experience >> gained from >> my OWN EYES, NOT FROM THIRD PARTY ACCOUNT. Sreeni Pattathanam or some >> other >> Tom, Dick and Harry are not going to change my conviction, I am not >> surprised >> by their critiscm, and I will not be suprised if some other person >> comes >> with a new cristicsm in feautre. > > --What I would like is to read what these men are saying. I want to > hear > their side. Is that a crime? > >> >> Avram,You need to focus on Ammachi and undersatnd Ammachi. What kind >> faith >> is that, if it wanes for some dude's perspective. How does it matter, >> if one >> one thinks or does not think about Ammachi.There are 6 billion people >> on this >> planet and they write thousand things. I THINK WE SHOULD PONDER ABOUT >> OUR >> RELATIONSHIP ABOUT AMMACHI. > > --I know you don't get this, but I AM pondering my relationship with > Amma. > >> >> regards >> >> Avinash. >> > > > > > > > > > Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! > Links > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2004 Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 --- Barbara Edmonds <edmondsb wrote: > Namah Shivaya..... > Where is the monitor for > Ammachi not our > brothers taken this entire topic TOOOOOO far ? > Why speculate and argue over > humankind................should we not be > working toward spiritual matters. > > Please stop !!! Keval, Sprouse, Avram, & > Avinash......please take your > concerns to a private chat.......and do not disrupt > those of us who > prefer to stay our of your quarrels. > This is the monitor (i.e. moderator). Actually this is the fill-in moderator until Kandar gets back from his vacation! I've just gotten back online after watching game 7 of the Stanley Cup finals (Congratulations to the Tampa Bay Lightning!!) and I agree with the above! Let's stop this thread now! Or to use an Indglish acronym, WEF (with immediate effect). Please, no more postings about the Communists/Rationalists' efforts to discredit Amma, lawsuits filed by ashram residents against Amma's would-be detractors or vice versa, Hindu v. Christian v. Muslim infighting in Kerala's politics, and any further issues arising out of that horribly misinformed San Jose Mercury article. direct your comments about it to: letters Keval Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Messenger. http://messenger./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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