Guest guest Posted June 7, 2004 Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 In a message dated 6/7/04 2:45:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Ammachi writes: Dear Avinash: I would like to respond herewith to your post. I do not want to trouble this list with a protracted and contentious dialogue, so I will be to- the -point only. > Dear Keval: > > I am not aware of the inner workings of the Hindu Fundamentalists and Indian > > politics in general. > > Well, that should answer everything. -Not quite everything. > > What I am concerned about, however, is the on-going > prosecution of Sreeni Pattathanam, his publisher and editor, for writing a > book > critical of Amma. > > Sreeni Pattathnam cristicism was written in 1985, so nothing is new, Sreeni > is a typical Marxist. I believe it is the reprinting of the book a few years ago that brought about the present troubles. I agree that the book is not new. > > It is actually a devotee, at Amritapuri, who has brought the > suit, but I doubt he would have done it against Her wishes. > > I would very much be interested to take part in that. > > Likewise, Head > Swami started a letter-writing campaign against this man, > > Everybody has right to defend themselves. > > which felt quite > threatening to him. > > That is his perspective always playing the role of "victim" > > Complaining that his book encroaches on religious faith, the > devotee is trying to use a rarely if ever-used law against attacking > another's > religion. Those who died on Normandy defended the right to free speech, > even > if it is untrue. If that is the case, then there are laws against libel. > The > book in question is not available outside India. The men, Mr. Zachariah > among > them, who argue that there are unsavory users around the guru, are far from > fools; > > Dude you are too NAIVE. You need to understand Indian politics, but can be > forgiven since you mentioned you are ignorant. > > Paul Zachariah is one freaking acid mouth Christian fanatic -that's very objective of you. So he can't speak without being accused of breaking the law? who hails from Kerala. He writes reguraly for "Outlook", a Congress-Christain > magzine. His views are highly narrow minded and always against Hinduism, > his oppostion against Ammachi is mainly Communal based. -And yet he still has the right to express his odious ideas. > > Pat Roberstson or Billy Graham's view about Ammachi would be much better > that P Zachariah's. > > I do not know enough about politics to render a decision on this, but I > do believe that people have a right to speak their minds, up to the point of > > intentionally deceiving others. > > BUDDY WAKE UP. Cristicsm agianst Ammachi and Her movement has long History, > it is not something new. Ammachi comes from state of Kerala, Kerala had the > first democratically elected Communist Govt in the world. - I knew they were communist, but not that they were the first democratically elected. Thank you for that. Since Marxism is against relegion and Hinduism is the majority religion, Hinduism > is the primary target for Marxists and always at the recieving end. It goes > like this "enemy of my enemy is my freind". Indian Marxists first aim is to > clear Hinduism of India, then go after other minority religions, as a result > is this alliance with Muslims and Christians( who pretty much have their own > plans for India). -Well, the Marxists would have a long way to go in India, first off. I repeat that, despite the desires of the Marxists and Rationalists to reduce the influence of Amma, their right to spew forth their ideas is sacrosanct. When, and if, they cross the lines of libel, the law should protect the innocent. We cannot silence everything people say,even if they appear to be no good. Am I naive in that? Why should they not have the right to say what they want about Amma? Don't people have a right to love and hate, and to talk about it? Some people love Reagan, and some hate Reagan. They both have the right to speak here. The criticism of outsiders performs a useful role; it balances the other side and keeps it from getting too insular. Checks and balances. If they hate Amma, so be it! But, if they lie and slander Her, that's another story, and there I agree it should be fought. If they disagree about events and offer alternative hypotheses, then what right is there to take them to court? > > Rationalists have written Articles, fliers,pamplets against Ammachi form > 1970's, in fact these people threatend physical voilence against devotees. > They lost their hold in 80's and 90's. Now with their new found freinds the > Keralite Christians (who feel threatend with growing popularity of Ammachi) are > comming into picture. - I am well aware of the earlier antagonism against the Ashram. I am not in favor of them. > > > This scandal is going to hurt public > perception, > > No body will be hurt, I don't understand your concern. --Maybe you are the naive one, about the American public. But, overall, I don't think it will be traumatic. I do know one friend who has reluctantly decided that he cannot remain a devotee because of the prosecution of Mr. Pattathanam. > > and the ashram will likely hide behind the unnamed devotee; > > WHAT THE HECK, his name is Amrtaswarup > - you don't mean the Swami Amrtaswarupananda, do you? I am referring to the > one who is pushing the prosecution... and this is what he has written : “The venomous mind of Zackaria has been pouring > forth poison through his pen for quite some time now. He has crossed the > lines of all decency. It is high time to respond to this evil minded writer > befittingly. Amma's children should spring to action now. He considers our > silence as weakness…. We should not let this extremely wicked person harass our > most Beloved Amma who has offered Herself to the world. COME ON.......LET US DO > IT NOW....GATHER AS MANY PEOPLE AS YOU CAN...STOP KEEPING QUIET TO THIS > ADHARMIC PERSON...†> > Nobody is hiding nothing. - If "nobody is hiding nothing" then why did they take this off the website? My guess is that it was seen as an embarrassment, a faux pas. Sw. Swarupananda was behind this exploit. > > > > anyone who > knows the scene knows that nothing happens there without authorization. > > I cannot > understand this and I am upset about it. > > You will never understand, and what I don't understand is your irrational > upset. > > The teaching is love and > forgiveness, etc. The Rationalists are atheists who believe that religion > holds people > back; its their conviction and they have a right to it. They have a right > to > ask for investigation of deaths and other shadowy things, even if we don't > exactly like it. > > Why persecute people for that, if your message is love and > forgiveness? > > GIVE ME A BREAK! No one is getting persecuted. No body is getting lynched or > killed. No Ayotollahs or Mullah Omars in India. -You don't have to lynch someone; you can have him brought to trial, and try to destroy his livelihood, credibility, etc. > > It's telling that Dayamrita says that Hinduism is not a religion, let > alone Ammadom. > > You need to know basics, Hindusim is not a religion in the sense like > Christianity, Islam, Judaism which claim exclusive rights for God. > > So, the argument that Mr. Pattathanam is guilty of attacking > religion is patently false, > > since the Ashram is registered as a charity, > > In India lines between religion and Charity does not exist. Ramakrishna > Mission is a Hindu religious organisation that run schools and charities, Kanchi > mutt is a religious body that runs Nethralaya, > > a temple first > of all, and that Ammaism is not a religion, > > There no such thing has "Ammaism" please stop phrasing new fancy, cosmetic > terms. > > > > since even Hinduism is not a > religion. > > Yes Hinduism is not a religion in CONVENTIONAL SENSE. > > She wields a lot of power in Kerala, over police and politicians. > > MAN, I cannot comprehend your point, what do mean by "weilds" here. Do you > think Ammachi is going to start some political outfit or she occupying some > country, if she "weilds" so much power as you cailm. --I am simply stating the fact that it is hard to go against her wishes. For example, her father is accused of trying to take advantage of a female devotee. He allegedly said that she would not be taken seriously, since his daughter is Amma. Do you doubt that, out of respect, and fear, the police and judicial system would look away if at all possible? Is that so far from possibility? > > > I understand zealous defense of one's guru. But, the wisdom and sense of the > > guru should intercede, not conspire with such zealotry. Remember love and > forgiveness? Or, fight a fair fight. Show the truth against the > allegations. > Write a counter-book. but attacking the poor man like this is shameful IMHO. > Avram > > Dear Avram, I consider you have poor understanding about many issues here. > Weather Ammachi or Indian political situation. No body is attacking the > writer, as I mentioned earlier it was wirtten way back in 1985. He is entitled to > write what ever he likes or he does not like. All the cases where closed long > back and none of the deaths where mysterious. You concern shows as if some > one has issued a fatwa agianst the writer. -I am not in favor of the anti-Amma people. I simply don't like the way he is being treated, i.e., prosecution for offending the religious sensibilities of others. I think a higher road should be tread, such as responding in honesty and truth. No, you will not change them, but you will affect the larger public who is watching this play out. > > > Karl Marx, a German Jew founded Marxism. He said "Religion is opium of > masses". He based his ideology soley on Christianity and Judaism(prevailing > religions in Europe during his time). Because these religions require to have faith > in one particular book and in one particular god. However Marxism never > applies to Hinduism, since there is no Pope, you can be atheist too. But given > Inferiority complex, low Self Esteem Indians possess, they always felt western > thinking is superior. Hence, there bewitchment with Marxism. Hindusim is > routinely subjected to Marxsistic analysis. Indian arm chaired, be-spectacled > Marxists take pride in their intellectual masturbation. As a result there is a > confilct between religion and charity. Charity is nothing but KARMA YOGA, > essence of Hinduism. > > In India I met too many Keralites (I am a Telugu)who swear, verbally abuse > or use street lingo to describe Ammachi. Most of those terms, I cannot write > on this forum. I expereinced worst form of verbal abuse against ammachi and I > always disregarded them. Any new "written" crticsm will not surprise me. - I don't defend the abuse. I defend their right to the abuse. > > I am seeing Ammachi since 1997. In United States itself I met her 4 times > and this summer its going to be fifth time. Whenever I see ammachi, I tend to > stay in that particular place until Ammachi leaves that station. I saw Ammachi > hugging blacks,browns, whites, orientals, beggars,crippled, deformed, cats, > dogs, snakes, insects etc,who ever comes on her way. I have seen that she > sits in one particular place for 20+ hours without going to restroom, hugging > continously. She is doing this for many years, personally for me Fisrt hand > experience is atleast 7 years, and I AM CONVINCED BEYOND BELIEF that Ammachi is > extraordinary, mind you I nurtured this notion with my experience gained from > my OWN EYES, NOT FROM THIRD PARTY ACCOUNT. Sreeni Pattathanam or some other > Tom, Dick and Harry are not going to change my conviction, I am not surprised > by their critiscm, and I will not be suprised if some other person comes > with a new cristicsm in feautre. --What I would like is to read what these men are saying. I want to hear their side. Is that a crime? > > Avram,You need to focus on Ammachi and undersatnd Ammachi. What kind faith > is that, if it wanes for some dude's perspective. How does it matter, if one > one thinks or does not think about Ammachi.There are 6 billion people on this > planet and they write thousand things. I THINK WE SHOULD PONDER ABOUT OUR > RELATIONSHIP ABOUT AMMACHI. --I know you don't get this, but I AM pondering my relationship with Amma. > > regards > > Avinash. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2004 Report Share Posted June 9, 2004 To hopefully bring a peaceful end to this discussion: Amma has is now quoted (below) on this subject and says she tried to dissuade the Swami. Some like to consider such things, but this group is not a place where such things are discussed without upsetting too many people. The Amma Free Speech Zone , or other sites discussing the pros and cons of such things, is the place where you can discuss these issues, not here. Upsetting people by asking them to consider such things here does nothing because nearly everyone here never sees any problem and they do not come here to think about such things. Personally, I value seeing Amma and reading some of what is here, but these incidents and the attitudes of her followers have, as you suggest, changed my and some others opinion on her, one reason why I'm not seeing her this time. The nature of posts here have disillusioned me and many others about taking Amma as a guru since to me the actions of her followers and those here obviously reflect her wishes in these actions, and her wish that no one question anything, but making such statements here upsets people here and so I do not intend to repeat this. For the record, Amma herself does seem to realize these issues are damaging her on the outside and aren't going to go away: --------- San Jose Mercury News: "Asked about a controversial legal case in which a resident of her main ashram in Kollam, India, had filed a defamation lawsuit seeking criminal prosecution of a longtime critic of the sect, the guru said she had tried to dissuade the plaintiff. But she added that the critic had gone too far, making false claims that there had been seven suspicious deaths at the Kollam ashram -- which houses more than 2,000 people -- outraging residents and bereaved families. ``This has been very painful,'' Amritanandamayi said. The case has not gone to trial. While she did not say whether she planned to intervene, she said the critic, author Sreeni Pattathanam, ``won't go to jail'' if he's convicted. (Pattathanam says the threat of criminal prosecution violates his right to free speech.)" ---------- Again, this is my first and last post here on such matters unless Amma herself comments further beyond what she has said or decides to further intervene and request the Swami to desist. I do not want to offend anyone further who does not understand why anyone would be concerned, but considering what Amma herself has said, this needed to be said. Ammachi, sprose1@a... wrote: > In a message dated 6/7/04 2:45:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > Ammachi writes: > Dear Avinash: > I would like to respond herewith to your post. I do not want to trouble this > list with a protracted and contentious dialogue, so I will be to- the -point > only. > > > Dear Keval: > > > > I am not aware of the inner workings of the Hindu Fundamentalists and Indian > > > > politics in general. > > > > Well, that should answer everything. > > -Not quite everything. > > > > > What I am concerned about, however, is the on-going > > prosecution of Sreeni Pattathanam, his publisher and editor, for writing a > > book > > critical of Amma. > > > > Sreeni Pattathnam cristicism was written in 1985, so nothing is new, Sreeni > > is a typical Marxist. > > I believe it is the reprinting of the book a few years ago that brought about > the present troubles. I agree that the book is not new. > > > > > It is actually a devotee, at Amritapuri, who has brought the > > suit, but I doubt he would have done it against Her wishes. > > > > I would very much be interested to take part in that. > > > > Likewise, Head > > Swami started a letter-writing campaign against this man, > > > > Everybody has right to defend themselves. > > > > which felt quite > > threatening to him. > > > > That is his perspective always playing the role of "victim" > > > > Complaining that his book encroaches on religious faith, the > > devotee is trying to use a rarely if ever-used law against attacking > > another's > > religion. Those who died on Normandy defended the right to free speech, > > even > > if it is untrue. If that is the case, then there are laws against libel. > > The > > book in question is not available outside India. The men, Mr. Zachariah > > among > > them, who argue that there are unsavory users around the guru, are far from > > fools; > > > > Dude you are too NAIVE. You need to understand Indian politics, but can be > > forgiven since you mentioned you are ignorant. > > > > Paul Zachariah is one freaking acid mouth Christian fanatic > -that's very objective of you. So he can't speak without being accused of > breaking the law? > > who hails from Kerala. He writes reguraly for "Outlook", a > Congress-Christain > > magzine. His views are highly narrow minded and always against Hinduism, > > his oppostion against Ammachi is mainly Communal based. > > -And yet he still has the right to express his odious ideas. > > > > > Pat Roberstson or Billy Graham's view about Ammachi would be much better > > that P Zachariah's. > > > > I do not know enough about politics to render a decision on this, but I > > do believe that people have a right to speak their minds, up to the point of > > > > intentionally deceiving others. > > > > BUDDY WAKE UP. Cristicsm agianst Ammachi and Her movement has long History, > > it is not something new. Ammachi comes from state of Kerala, Kerala had the > > first democratically elected Communist Govt in the world. > - I knew they were communist, but not that they were the first democratically > elected. Thank you for that. > > Since Marxism is against relegion and Hinduism is the majority religion, > Hinduism > > is the primary target for Marxists and always at the recieving end. It goes > > like this "enemy of my enemy is my freind". Indian Marxists first aim is to > > clear Hinduism of India, then go after other minority religions, as a result > > is this alliance with Muslims and Christians( who pretty much have their own > > plans for India). > > -Well, the Marxists would have a long way to go in India, first off. I > repeat that, despite the desires of the Marxists and Rationalists to reduce the > influence of Amma, their right to spew forth their ideas is sacrosanct. When, and > if, they cross the lines of libel, the law should protect the innocent. We > cannot silence everything people say,even if they appear to be no good. Am I > naive in that? Why should they not have the right to say what they want about > Amma? Don't people have a right to love and hate, and to talk about it? Some > people love Reagan, and some hate Reagan. They both have the right to speak > here. The criticism of outsiders performs a useful role; it balances the other > side and keeps it from getting too insular. Checks and balances. If they > hate Amma, so be it! But, if they lie and slander Her, that's another story, > and there I agree it should be fought. If they disagree about events and offer > alternative hypotheses, then what right is there to take them to court? > > > > > Rationalists have written Articles, fliers,pamplets against Ammachi form > > 1970's, in fact these people threatend physical voilence against devotees. > > They lost their hold in 80's and 90's. Now with their new found freinds the > > Keralite Christians (who feel threatend with growing popularity of Ammachi) are > > comming into picture. > > - I am well aware of the earlier antagonism against the Ashram. I am not in > favor of them. > > > > > > This scandal is going to hurt public > > perception, > > > > No body will be hurt, I don't understand your concern. > > --Maybe you are the naive one, about the American public. But, overall, I > don't think it will be traumatic. I do know one friend who has reluctantly > decided that he cannot remain a devotee because of the prosecution of Mr. > Pattathanam. > > > > > and the ashram will likely hide behind the unnamed devotee; > > > > WHAT THE HECK, his name is Amrtaswarup > > - you don't mean the Swami Amrtaswarupananda, do you? I am referring to the > > one who is pushing the prosecution... > > and this is what he has written : “The venomous mind of Zackaria has been > pouring > > forth poison through his pen for quite some time now. He has crossed the > > lines of all decency. It is high time to respond to this evil minded writer > > befittingly. Amma's children should spring to action now. He considers our > > silence as weakness…. We should not let this extremely wicked person harass our > > most Beloved Amma who has offered Herself to the world. COME ON.......LET US DO > > IT NOW....GATHER AS MANY PEOPLE AS YOU CAN...STOP KEEPING QUIET TO THIS > > ADHARMIC PERSON...†> > > > Nobody is hiding nothing. > > - If "nobody is hiding nothing" then why did they take this off the website? > My guess is that it was seen as an embarrassment, a faux pas. Sw. > Swarupananda was behind this exploit. > > > > > > > > > anyone who > > knows the scene knows that nothing happens there without authorization. > > > > I cannot > > understand this and I am upset about it. > > > > You will never understand, and what I don't understand is your irrational > > upset. > > > > The teaching is love and > > forgiveness, etc. The Rationalists are atheists who believe that religion > > holds people > > back; its their conviction and they have a right to it. They have a right > > to > > ask for investigation of deaths and other shadowy things, even if we don't > > exactly like it. > > > > Why persecute people for that, if your message is love and > > forgiveness? > > > > GIVE ME A BREAK! No one is getting persecuted. No body is getting lynched or > > killed. No Ayotollahs or Mullah Omars in India. > > -You don't have to lynch someone; you can have him brought to trial, and try > to destroy his livelihood, credibility, etc. > > > > > It's telling that Dayamrita says that Hinduism is not a religion, let > > alone Ammadom. > > > > You need to know basics, Hindusim is not a religion in the sense like > > Christianity, Islam, Judaism which claim exclusive rights for God. > > > > So, the argument that Mr. Pattathanam is guilty of attacking > > religion is patently false, > > > > since the Ashram is registered as a charity, > > > > In India lines between religion and Charity does not exist. Ramakrishna > > Mission is a Hindu religious organisation that run schools and charities, Kanchi > > mutt is a religious body that runs Nethralaya, > > > > a temple first > > of all, and that Ammaism is not a religion, > > > > There no such thing has "Ammaism" please stop phrasing new fancy, cosmetic > > terms. > > > > > > > > since even Hinduism is not a > > religion. > > > > Yes Hinduism is not a religion in CONVENTIONAL SENSE. > > > > She wields a lot of power in Kerala, over police and politicians. > > > > MAN, I cannot comprehend your point, what do mean by "weilds" here. Do you > > think Ammachi is going to start some political outfit or she occupying some > > country, if she "weilds" so much power as you cailm. > > --I am simply stating the fact that it is hard to go against her wishes. For > example, her father is accused of trying to take advantage of a female > devotee. He allegedly said that she would not be taken seriously, since his daughter > is Amma. Do you doubt that, out of respect, and fear, the police and judicial > system would look away if at all possible? Is that so far from possibility? > > > > > > > > I understand zealous defense of one's guru. But, the wisdom and sense of the > > > > guru should intercede, not conspire with such zealotry. Remember love and > > forgiveness? Or, fight a fair fight. Show the truth against the > > allegations. > > Write a counter-book. but attacking the poor man like this is shameful IMHO. > > Avram > > > > Dear Avram, I consider you have poor understanding about many issues here. > > Weather Ammachi or Indian political situation. No body is attacking the > > writer, as I mentioned earlier it was wirtten way back in 1985. He is entitled to > > write what ever he likes or he does not like. All the cases where closed long > > back and none of the deaths where mysterious. You concern shows as if some > > one has issued a fatwa agianst the writer. > > -I am not in favor of the anti-Amma people. I simply don't like the way he is > being treated, i.e., prosecution for offending the religious sensibilities of > others. I think a higher road should be tread, such as responding in honesty > and truth. No, you will not change them, but you will affect the larger > public who is watching this play out. > > > > > > > > > Karl Marx, a German Jew founded Marxism. He said "Religion is opium of > > masses". He based his ideology soley on Christianity and Judaism (prevailing > > religions in Europe during his time). Because these religions require to have faith > > in one particular book and in one particular god. However Marxism never > > applies to Hinduism, since there is no Pope, you can be atheist too. But given > > Inferiority complex, low Self Esteem Indians possess, they always felt western > > thinking is superior. Hence, there bewitchment with Marxism. Hindusim is > > routinely subjected to Marxsistic analysis. Indian arm chaired, be-spectacled > > Marxists take pride in their intellectual masturbation. As a result there is a > > confilct between religion and charity. Charity is nothing but KARMA YOGA, > > essence of Hinduism. > > > > In India I met too many Keralites (I am a Telugu)who swear, verbally abuse > > or use street lingo to describe Ammachi. Most of those terms, I cannot write > > on this forum. I expereinced worst form of verbal abuse against ammachi and I > > always disregarded them. Any new "written" crticsm will not surprise me. > > - I don't defend the abuse. I defend their right to the abuse. > > > > > I am seeing Ammachi since 1997. In United States itself I met her 4 times > > and this summer its going to be fifth time. Whenever I see ammachi, I tend to > > stay in that particular place until Ammachi leaves that station. I saw Ammachi > > hugging blacks,browns, whites, orientals, beggars,crippled, deformed, cats, > > dogs, snakes, insects etc,who ever comes on her way. I have seen that she > > sits in one particular place for 20+ hours without going to restroom, hugging > > continously. She is doing this for many years, personally for me Fisrt hand > > experience is atleast 7 years, and I AM CONVINCED BEYOND BELIEF that Ammachi is > > extraordinary, mind you I nurtured this notion with my experience gained from > > my OWN EYES, NOT FROM THIRD PARTY ACCOUNT. Sreeni Pattathanam or some other > > Tom, Dick and Harry are not going to change my conviction, I am not surprised > > by their critiscm, and I will not be suprised if some other person comes > > with a new cristicsm in feautre. > > --What I would like is to read what these men are saying. I want to hear > their side. Is that a crime? > > > > > Avram,You need to focus on Ammachi and undersatnd Ammachi. What kind faith > > is that, if it wanes for some dude's perspective. How does it matter, if one > > one thinks or does not think about Ammachi.There are 6 billion people on this > > planet and they write thousand things. I THINK WE SHOULD PONDER ABOUT OUR > > RELATIONSHIP ABOUT AMMACHI. > > --I know you don't get this, but I AM pondering my relationship with Amma. > > > > > regards > > > > Avinash. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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