Guest guest Posted June 6, 2004 Report Share Posted June 6, 2004 In a message dated 6/6/04 2:16:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Ammachi writes: > > In the article it is claimed that Amma's > >organization has unhealthy > >ties to Hindu fundamentalists > > Really? I would think that the hard-liners in the RSS > and Shiv Sena would want to get as far away as they > can from her. She's done more than enough to piss off > the Hindu fundamentalists, such training female > priests and speaking out against the dowry system. > Would a Brahmin supremacist want to be seen with a > dark-skinned woman from a fisherman's family near the > bottom rung of the caste hierarchy? > > Oh well, a lot of young Americans, Canadians, Brits, > etc. died on the beaches of Normandy on this day 60 > years ago to preserve his freedom to write such > misinformed yellow journalism. > > Keval > (remembering the sacrifices of my grandparents' > generation on June 6, 1944) > Dear Keval: I am not aware of the inner workings of the Hindu Fundamentalists and Indian politics in general. What I am concerned about, however, is the on-going prosecution of Sreeni Pattathanam, his publisher and editor, for writing a book critical of Amma. It is actually a devotee, at Amritapuri, who has brought the suit, but I doubt he would have done it against Her wishes. Likewise, Head Swami started a letter-writing campaign against this man, which felt quite threatening to him. Complaining that his book encroaches on religious faith, the devotee is trying to use a rarely if ever-used law against attacking another's religion. Those who died on Normandy defended the right to free speech, even if it is untrue. If that is the case, then there are laws against libel. The book in question is not available outside India. The men, Mr. Zachariah among them, who argue that there are unsavory users around the guru, are far from fools; I do not know enough about politics to render a decision on this, but I do believe that people have a right to speak their minds, up to the point of intentionally deceiving others. This scandal is going to hurt public perception, and the ashram will likely hide behind the unnamed devotee; anyone who knows the scene knows that nothing happens there without authorization. I cannot understand this and I am upset about it. The teaching is love and forgiveness, etc. The Rationalists are atheists who believe that religion holds people back; its their conviction and they have a right to it. They have a right to ask for investigation of deaths and other shadowy things, even if we don't exactly like it. Why persecute people for that, if your message is love and forgiveness? It's telling that Dayamrita says that Hinduism is not a religion, let alone Ammadom. So, the argument that Mr. Pattathanam is guilty of attacking religion is patently false, since the Ashram is registered as a charity, first of all, and that Ammaism is not a religion, since even Hinduism is not a religion. She wields a lot of power in Kerala, over police and politicians. I understand zealous defense of one's guru. But, the wisdom and sense of the guru should intercede, not conspire with such zealotry. Remember love and forgiveness? Or, fight a fair fight. Show the truth against the allegations. Write a counter-book. but attacking the poor man like this is shameful IMHO. Avram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2004 Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 sprose1 wrote: In a message dated 6/6/04 2:16:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Ammachi writes: > > In the article it is claimed that Amma's > >organization has unhealthy > >ties to Hindu fundamentalists > > Really? I would think that the hard-liners in the RSS > and Shiv Sena would want to get as far away as they > can from her. She's done more than enough to piss off > the Hindu fundamentalists, such training female > priests and speaking out against the dowry system. > Would a Brahmin supremacist want to be seen with a > dark-skinned woman from a fisherman's family near the > bottom rung of the caste hierarchy? > > Oh well, a lot of young Americans, Canadians, Brits, > etc. died on the beaches of Normandy on this day 60 > years ago to preserve his freedom to write such > misinformed yellow journalism. > > Keval > (remembering the sacrifices of my grandparents' > generation on June 6, 1944) > Dear Keval: I am not aware of the inner workings of the Hindu Fundamentalists and Indian politics in general. Well, that should answer everything. What I am concerned about, however, is the on-going prosecution of Sreeni Pattathanam, his publisher and editor, for writing a book critical of Amma. Sreeni Pattathnam cristicism was written in 1985, so nothing is new, Sreeni is a typical Marxist. It is actually a devotee, at Amritapuri, who has brought the suit, but I doubt he would have done it against Her wishes. I would very much be interested to take part in that. Likewise, Head Swami started a letter-writing campaign against this man, Everybody has right to defend themselves. which felt quite threatening to him. That is his perspective always playing the role of "victim" Complaining that his book encroaches on religious faith, the devotee is trying to use a rarely if ever-used law against attacking another's religion. Those who died on Normandy defended the right to free speech, even if it is untrue. If that is the case, then there are laws against libel. The book in question is not available outside India. The men, Mr. Zachariah among them, who argue that there are unsavory users around the guru, are far from fools; Dude you are too NAIVE. You need to understand Indian politics, but can be forgiven since you mentioned you are ignorant. Paul Zachariah is one freaking acid mouth Christian fanatic who hails from Kerala. He writes reguraly for "Outlook", a Congress-Christain magzine. His views are highly narrow minded and always against Hinduism, his oppostion against Ammachi is mainly Communal based. Pat Roberstson or Billy Graham's view about Ammachi would be much better that P Zachariah's. I do not know enough about politics to render a decision on this, but I do believe that people have a right to speak their minds, up to the point of intentionally deceiving others. BUDDY WAKE UP. Cristicsm agianst Ammachi and Her movement has long History, it is not something new. Ammachi comes from state of Kerala, Kerala had the first democratically elected Communist Govt in the world. Since Marxism is against relegion and Hinduism is the majority religion, Hinduism is the primary target for Marxists and always at the recieving end. It goes like this "enemy of my enemy is my freind". Indian Marxists first aim is to clear Hinduism of India, then go after other minority religions, as a result is this alliance with Muslims and Christians( who pretty much have their own plans for India). Rationalists have written Articles, fliers,pamplets against Ammachi form 1970's, in fact these people threatend physical voilence against devotees. They lost their hold in 80's and 90's. Now with their new found freinds the Keralite Christians (who feel threatend with growing popularity of Ammachi) are comming into picture. This scandal is going to hurt public perception, No body will be hurt, I don't understand your concern. and the ashram will likely hide behind the unnamed devotee; WHAT THE HECK, his name is Amrtaswarup and this is what he has written : “The venomous mind of Zackaria has been pouring forth poison through his pen for quite some time now. He has crossed the lines of all decency. It is high time to respond to this evil minded writer befittingly. Amma's children should spring to action now. He considers our silence as weakness…. We should not let this extremely wicked person harass our most Beloved Amma who has offered Herself to the world. COME ON.......LET US DO IT NOW....GATHER AS MANY PEOPLE AS YOU CAN...STOP KEEPING QUIET TO THIS ADHARMIC PERSON...” Nobody is hiding nothing. anyone who knows the scene knows that nothing happens there without authorization. I cannot understand this and I am upset about it. You will never understand, and what I don't understand is your irrational upset. The teaching is love and forgiveness, etc. The Rationalists are atheists who believe that religion holds people back; its their conviction and they have a right to it. They have a right to ask for investigation of deaths and other shadowy things, even if we don't exactly like it. Why persecute people for that, if your message is love and forgiveness? GIVE ME A BREAK! No one is getting persecuted. No body is getting lynched or killed. No Ayotollahs or Mullah Omars in India. It's telling that Dayamrita says that Hinduism is not a religion, let alone Ammadom. You need to know basics, Hindusim is not a religion in the sense like Christianity, Islam, Judaism which claim exclusive rights for God. So, the argument that Mr. Pattathanam is guilty of attacking religion is patently false, since the Ashram is registered as a charity, In India lines between religion and Charity does not exist. Ramakrishna Mission is a Hindu religious organisation that run schools and charities, Kanchi mutt is a religious body that runs Nethralaya, a temple first of all, and that Ammaism is not a religion, There no such thing has "Ammaism" please stop phrasing new fancy, cosmetic terms. since even Hinduism is not a religion. Yes Hinduism is not a religion in CONVENTIONAL SENSE. She wields a lot of power in Kerala, over police and politicians. MAN, I cannot comprehend your point, what do mean by "weilds" here. Do you think Ammachi is going to start some political outfit or she occupying some country, if she "weilds" so much power as you cailm. I understand zealous defense of one's guru. But, the wisdom and sense of the guru should intercede, not conspire with such zealotry. Remember love and forgiveness? Or, fight a fair fight. Show the truth against the allegations. Write a counter-book. but attacking the poor man like this is shameful IMHO. Avram Dear Avram, I consider you have poor understanding about many issues here. Weather Ammachi or Indian political situation. No body is attacking the writer, as I mentioned earlier it was wirtten way back in 1985. He is entitled to write what ever he likes or he does not like. All the cases where closed long back and none of the deaths where mysterious. You concern shows as if some one has issued a fatwa agianst the writer. Karl Marx, a German Jew founded Marxism. He said "Religion is opium of masses". He based his ideology soley on Christianity and Judaism(prevailing religions in Europe during his time). Because these religions require to have faith in one particular book and in one particular god. However Marxism never applies to Hinduism, since there is no Pope, you can be atheist too. But given Inferiority complex, low Self Esteem Indians possess, they always felt western thinking is superior. Hence, there bewitchment with Marxism. Hindusim is routinely subjected to Marxsistic analysis. Indian arm chaired, be-spectacled Marxists take pride in their intellectual masturbation. As a result there is a confilct between religion and charity. Charity is nothing but KARMA YOGA, essence of Hinduism. In India I met too many Keralites (I am a Telugu)who swear, verbally abuse or use street lingo to describe Ammachi. Most of those terms, I cannot write on this forum. I expereinced worst form of verbal abuse against ammachi and I always disregarded them. Any new "written" crticsm will not surprise me. I am seeing Ammachi since 1997. In United States itself I met her 4 times and this summer its going to be fifth time. Whenever I see ammachi, I tend to stay in that particular place until Ammachi leaves that station. I saw Ammachi hugging blacks,browns, whites, orientals, beggars,crippled, deformed, cats, dogs, snakes, insects etc,who ever comes on her way. I have seen that she sits in one particular place for 20+ hours without going to restroom, hugging continously. She is doing this for many years, personally for me Fisrt hand experience is atleast 7 years, and I AM CONVINCED BEYOND BELIEF that Ammachi is extraordinary, mind you I nurtured this notion with my experience gained from my OWN EYES, NOT FROM THIRD PARTY ACCOUNT. Sreeni Pattathanam or some other Tom, Dick and Harry are not going to change my conviction, I am not surprised by their critiscm, and I will not be suprised if some other person comes with a new cristicsm in feautre. Avram,You need to focus on Ammachi and undersatnd Ammachi. What kind faith is that, if it wanes for some dude's perspective. How does it matter, if one one thinks or does not think about Ammachi.There are 6 billion people on this planet and they write thousand things. I THINK WE SHOULD PONDER ABOUT OUR RELATIONSHIP ABOUT AMMACHI. regards Avinash. Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! Ammachi/ Ammachi Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Messenger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2004 Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 avinash ramidi <avinash7_99 wrote: sprose1 wrote: In a message dated 6/6/04 2:16:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Ammachi writes: > > In the article it is claimed that Amma's > >organization has unhealthy > >ties to Hindu fundamentalists > > Really? I would think that the hard-liners in the RSS > and Shiv Sena would want to get as far away as they > can from her. She's done more than enough to piss off > the Hindu fundamentalists, such training female > priests and speaking out against the dowry system. > Would a Brahmin supremacist want to be seen with a > dark-skinned woman from a fisherman's family near the > bottom rung of the caste hierarchy? > > Oh well, a lot of young Americans, Canadians, Brits, > etc. died on the beaches of Normandy on this day 60 > years ago to preserve his freedom to write such > misinformed yellow journalism. > > Keval > (remembering the sacrifices of my grandparents' > generation on June 6, 1944) > Dear Keval: > I am not aware of the inner workings of the Hindu Fundamentalists and Indian > politics in general. Well, that should answer everything. > What I am concerned about, however, is the on-going > prosecution of Sreeni Pattathanam, his publisher and editor, for writing a book > critical of Amma. Sreeni Pattathnam cristicism was written in 1985, so nothing is new, Sreeni is a typical Marxist. > It is actually a devotee, at Amritapuri, who has brought the > suit, but I doubt he would have done it against Her wishes. I would very much be interested to take part in that. > Likewise, Head > Swami started a letter-writing campaign against this man, Everybody has right to defend themselves. > which felt quite > threatening to him. That is his perspective always playing the role of "victim" > Complaining that his book encroaches on religious faith, the > devotee is trying to use a rarely if ever-used law against attacking another's > religion. Those who died on Normandy defended the right to free speech, even > if it is untrue. If that is the case, then there are laws against libel. The > book in question is not available outside India. The men, Mr. Zachariah among > them, who argue that there are unsavory users around the guru, are far from > fools; Dude you are too NAIVE. You need to understand Indian politics, but can be forgiven since you mentioned you are ignorant. Paul Zachariah is one freaking acid mouth Christian fanatic who hails from Kerala. He writes reguraly for "Outlook", a Congress-Christain magzine. His views are highly narrow minded and always against Hinduism, his oppostion against Ammachi is mainly Communal based. Pat Roberstson or Billy Graham's view about Ammachi would be much better that P Zachariah's. > I do not know enough about politics to render a decision on this, but I > do believe that people have a right to speak their minds, up to the point of > intentionally deceiving others. BUDDY WAKE UP. Cristicsm agianst Ammachi and Her movement has long History, it is not something new. Ammachi comes from state of Kerala, Kerala had the first democratically elected Communist Govt in the world. Since Marxism is against relegion and Hinduism is the majority religion, Hinduism is the primary target for Marxists and always at the recieving end. It goes like this "enemy of my enemy is my freind". Indian Marxists first aim is to clear Hinduism of India, then go after other minority religions, as a result is this alliance with Muslims and Christians( who pretty much have their own plans for India). Rationalists have written Articles, fliers,pamplets against Ammachi form 1970's, in fact these people threatend physical voilence against devotees. They lost their hold in 80's and 90's. Now with their new found freinds the Keralite Christians (who feel threatend with growing popularity of Ammachi) are comming into picture. > This scandal is going to hurt public > perception, No body will be hurt, I don't understand your concern. and the ashram will likely hide behind the unnamed devotee; WHAT THE HECK, his name is Amrtaswarup and this is what he has written : “The venomous mind of Zackaria has been pouring forth poison through his pen for quite some time now. He has crossed the lines of all decency. It is high time to respond to this evil minded writer befittingly. Amma's children should spring to action now. He considers our silence as weakness…. We should not let this extremely wicked person harass our most Beloved Amma who has offered Herself to the world. COME ON.......LET US DO IT NOW....GATHER AS MANY PEOPLE AS YOU CAN...STOP KEEPING QUIET TO THIS ADHARMIC PERSON...” Nobody is hiding nothing. > anyone who > knows the scene knows that nothing happens there without authorization. > I cannot > understand this and I am upset about it. You will never understand, and what I don't understand is your irrational upset. > The teaching is love and > forgiveness, etc. The Rationalists are atheists who believe that religion holds > people > back; its their conviction and they have a right to it. They have a right to > ask for investigation of deaths and other shadowy things, even if we don't > exactly like it. > Why persecute people for that, if your message is love and > forgiveness? GIVE ME A BREAK! No one is getting persecuted. No body is getting lynched or killed. No Ayotollahs or Mullah Omars in India. > It's telling that Dayamrita says that Hinduism is not a religion, let > alone Ammadom. You need to know basics, Hindusim is not a religion in the sense like Christianity, Islam, Judaism which claim exclusive rights for God. > So, the argument that Mr. Pattathanam is guilty of attacking > religion is patently false, > since the Ashram is registered as a charity, In India lines between religion and Charity does not exist. Ramakrishna Mission is a Hindu religious organisation that run schools and charities, Kanchi mutt is a religious body that runs Nethralaya, > a temple first > of all, and that Ammaism is not a religion, There no such thing has "Ammaism" please stop phrasing new fancy, cosmetic terms. > since even Hinduism is not a > religion. Yes Hinduism is not a religion in CONVENTIONAL SENSE. > She wields a lot of power in Kerala, over police and politicians. MAN, I cannot comprehend your point, what do mean by "weilds" here. Do you think Ammachi is going to start some political outfit or she occupying some country, if she "weilds" so much power as you cailm. > I understand zealous defense of one's guru. But, the wisdom and sense of the > guru should intercede, not conspire with such zealotry. Remember love and > forgiveness? Or, fight a fair fight. Show the truth against the allegations. > Write a counter-book. but attacking the poor man like this is shameful IMHO. > Avram Dear Avram, I consider you have poor understanding about many issues here. Weather Ammachi or Indian political situation. No body is attacking the writer, as I mentioned earlier it was wirtten way back in 1985. He is entitled to write what ever he likes or he does not like. All the cases where closed long back and none of the deaths where mysterious. You concern shows as if some one has issued a fatwa agianst the writer. Karl Marx, a German Jew founded Marxism. He said "Religion is opium of masses". He based his ideology soley on Christianity and Judaism(prevailing religions in Europe during his time). Because these religions require to have faith in one particular book and in one particular god. However Marxism never applies to Hinduism, since there is no Pope, you can be atheist too. But given Inferiority complex, low Self Esteem Indians possess, they always felt western thinking is superior. Hence, there bewitchment with Marxism. Hindusim is routinely subjected to Marxsistic analysis. Indian arm chaired, be-spectacled Marxists take pride in their intellectual masturbation. As a result there is a confilct between religion and charity. Charity is nothing but KARMA YOGA, essence of Hinduism. In India I met too many Keralites (I am a Telugu)who swear, verbally abuse or use street lingo to describe Ammachi. Most of those terms, I cannot write on this forum. I expereinced worst form of verbal abuse against ammachi and I always disregarded them. Any new "written" crticsm will not surprise me. I am seeing Ammachi since 1997. In United States itself I met her 4 times and this summer its going to be fifth time. Whenever I see ammachi, I tend to stay in that particular place until Ammachi leaves that station. I saw Ammachi hugging blacks,browns, whites, orientals, beggars,crippled, deformed, cats, dogs, snakes, insects etc,who ever comes on her way. I have seen that she sits in one particular place for 20+ hours without going to restroom, hugging continously. She is doing this for many years, personally for me Fisrt hand experience is atleast 7 years, and I AM CONVINCED BEYOND BELIEF that Ammachi is extraordinary, mind you I nurtured this notion with my experience gained from my OWN EYES, NOT FROM THIRD PARTY ACCOUNT. Sreeni Pattathanam or some other Tom, Dick and Harry are not going to change my conviction, I am not surprised by their critiscm, and I will not be suprised if some other person comes with a new cristicsm in feautre. Avram,You need to focus on Ammachi and undersatnd Ammachi. What kind faith is that, if it wanes for some dude's perspective. How does it matter, if one one thinks or does not think about Ammachi.There are 6 billion people on this planet and they write thousand things. I THINK WE SHOULD PONDER ABOUT OUR RELATIONSHIP ABOUT AMMACHI. regards Avinash. Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! Ammachi/ Ammachi Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Messenger Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Messenger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2004 Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 > > In India I met too many Keralites (I am a Telugu)who swear, verbally abuse or use street lingo to describe Ammachi. Most of those terms, I cannot write on this forum. I expereinced worst form of verbal abuse against ammachi and I always disregarded them. Any new "written" crticsm will not surprise me. > > I am seeing Ammachi since 1997. In United States itself I met her 4 times and this summer its going to be fifth time. Whenever I see ammachi, I tend to stay in that particular place until Ammachi leaves that station. I saw Ammachi hugging blacks,browns, whites, orientals, beggars,crippled, deformed, cats, dogs, snakes, insects etc,who ever comes on her way. I have seen that she sits in one particular place for 20+ hours without going to restroom, hugging continously. She is doing this for many years, personally for me Fisrt hand experience is atleast 7 years, and I AM CONVINCED BEYOND BELIEF that Ammachi is extraordinary, mind you I nurtured this notion with my experience gained from my OWN EYES, NOT FROM THIRD PARTY ACCOUNT. Sreeni Pattathanam or some other Tom, Dick and Harry are not going to change my conviction, I am not surprised by their critiscm, and I will not be suprised if some other person comes with a new cristicsm in feautre. > Avinash: Thanks for this response which was well put. I just got back from the Seattle devi bhava (still very sleep deprived after just 4 hours of sleep over 3 days) and will post some interesting incidents from the retreat. I got into a discussion of Amma's miracles with a devotee most of which are very personal; to me her sitting in one place for 3 days is quite a feat of endurance but not very extraordinary- the terrorist Carlos could stand perfectly still for 3 days at a stretch (if you have tried it out, you will find that standing perfectly still is far more difficult than moving the body). To me it is Her divine presence that is what is so extra-ordinary about Amma. I am sure that if anyone else could hug non-stop for 3 days, I do not think that people would start lining up in the thousands. We can safely ignore opinions of rationalists or communists; now this devotee was telling why the commies are so against Amma. Apparently one of their tactics was to employ unemployed and educated young men and inculcate a zeal for the communist cause (around Vallickavu). Now it turned that their numbers were declining rapidly and the reason was that all the young men were joining Amma's ashram in droves , singing and dancing rather than adopt the proletarian cause LOL. If someone were to complain that Amma is a fraud/fake etc, I think what we should do is to have a good laugh (it is like some telling that the earth is flat, what else can you do but laugh) and move on. All the great teachers in history had their share of antagonists and I expect that Amma will not be an exception. -yogaman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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