Guest guest Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 Om Namaha Shivaya! Someone on the list mentioned Sri Ramakrishna sometime ago and since I was not familiar with him, I decided to read about him; I'm currently reading "Ramakrishna as we knew him." Please, please forgive my ignorance in these matters; is Ramakrishna considered an avatar? I have no frame of reference and many of the memoirs published in the book are by those who were in his circle of devotees so that doesn't help much. I am also curious about the fact that Ramakrishna said that he would incarnate again after 100 years - he died in 1843, which means that the 100 years have passed. Has there been any speculation/information about his return? Thanks in advance for any thoughts you have on this; I always appreciate the effort you make on my behalf. At Mother's feet, Snehalata Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2004 Report Share Posted January 10, 2004 Dear Snehalata, Sri Ramakrishna ,who has given me a lot of inspiration in my life, was born in the village of Kamarpukur,W.Bengal, India, on Feb. 18, 1836. At the age of 23 yrs. he married Shri Sarada Devi, the Holy Mother. Sri Ramakrishna left his mortal frame on Aug. 15, 1886. His most famous disciple, Swami Vivekananda, after seeking advice and taking permission from the Holy Mother, travelled to the West to spread his guru's teachings, and he established the Ramakrishna Mission in 1897 at Belur Math, Howrah, West Bengal. In my own small mind's opinion, the energies of Sri Ramakrishna, the Holy Mother, and Swami Vivekananda, and more that I cannot comprehend , are being manifested in Mata Amritanandamayi. The 108 names of Mata Amrtanandamayi refer to this cosmic relationship and divine drama in verses 56, 57,58, and 59. Most, if not all, of Hindu India considers Sri Ramakrishna, and his wife the Holy Mother, to be divine incarnations. My view: who is, or was Sri Ramakrishna, and the Holy Mother...............each finds the answer to that in his/her own heart. Any my heart is forever grateful for the guidance they have given me on my own spiritual path. I hope this helps. I have a lot of books in the home from the Ramakrishna Misssion, so if you need a refernce about some point, please feel free to ask me. In Amma, Sara Ammachi, "Dixie Thacker" <dixielou@s...> wrote: > Om Namaha Shivaya! > > Someone on the list mentioned Sri Ramakrishna sometime ago and since I was not familiar with him, I decided to read about him; I'm currently reading "Ramakrishna as we knew him." > > Please, please forgive my ignorance in these matters; is Ramakrishna considered an avatar? I have no frame of reference and many of the memoirs published in the book are by those who were in his circle of devotees so that doesn't help much. I am also curious about the fact that Ramakrishna said that he would incarnate again after 100 years - he died in 1843, which means that the 100 years have passed. Has there been any speculation/information about his return? > > Thanks in advance for any thoughts you have on this; I always appreciate the effort you make on my behalf. > > At Mother's feet, > Snehalata > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2004 Report Share Posted January 10, 2004 Dear Snehalata, Great questions! Sri Ramakrishna has been my Chosen Ideal for many years. The classic introduction is "The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna", a book of dialogues covering a 5-year period ending in 1886 with the Master's passing. It was written by a householder devotee named Mahendra Nath Gupta (or "M", as he signed his works), translated from Bengali, and published in English in 1942. ("M" is also the subject of ch. 9 of Yogananda's "Autobiography of a Yogi"). However, there is another book, just published in December 2003, called "Sri Ramakrishna and His Divine Play". I can't recommend it enough - I wish I could put a copy in every library in America. This is a fresh translation of a tremendously important original source book called "Sri Sri Ramakrishna Lilaprasanga". It covers the Master's entire life in depth and is generously supplemented by footnotes, a glossary, and an exhaustive table of contents. The translator is Swami Chetanananda, head of the St. Louis Vedanta Society (and my revered guru!) Although not the same text as M's "Gospel", my son's comment on reviewing the book was "it's like reading the New International Version, and the Gospel is like reading the King James!" Anything you read about Sri Ramakrishna will bless you a thousand times over, and will enrich your relationship with Amma in every way. "56. ...whose nature and all qualities remind us of Sri Sarada Devi. 57. ...in whom is reflected the forms of Sri Ramakrishna and Sarada Devi. 58. ...in whom we can see the play of these two re-enacted. 59. ...who is the ocean of ambrosia in which the waves of the various plays of Sri Ramakrishna and Ssarada Devi arise." (from Astottara Sata Namavali, MA Center). > is Ramakrishna considered > an avatar? Yes. The Master told Vivekananda "He who was Krishna, He who was Rama, is now Ramakrishna in this body!" In the course of His sadhana Ramakrishna was investigated and declared an avatar by a panel of Vedic pundits. > I am also curious about the fact that Ramakrishna said that he would > incarnate > again after 100 years - he died in 1843, which means that the 100 years > have > passed. Has there been any speculation/information about his return? Well, He actually passed in 1886, not 1843. There's been some speculation, but I'm not much interested; it's more important to realize that Ramakrishna never left us! Pranams, Ramlal -- Om! Sthapakaya Ca Dharmasya Sarva-Dharma-Svarupine Avatara-Varishthaya Ramakrishnaya Te Namaha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2004 Report Share Posted January 10, 2004 - saramj33 Ammachi Saturday, January 10, 2004 5:11 AM Re: Ramakrishna Dear Sara, Thank you for writing back; and for spotting my error in the year of Sri Ramakrishna's death. Still, the 100 years had passed and your answer about His reincarnation aligned with what I had wondered as soon as I read His prediction: our Amma would fit perfectly if what I was reading about Him was accurate. When I saw that He was linked to Vedanta, I was not sure what the general thought about His veracity is. (I'm still muddling thru dualist/nondualist on my own with the faith that Mother will help me see the truth in Her own time.). I had, from the time I was little, told those who asked that my greatest wish was to stand in the presence of true holiness...I've been lucky enough to do that with Amma and would like to have met Sri Ramakrishna as well. Thanks again, dear sister, for supporting what my heart was already telling me. Always hoping to grow, Snehalata In my own small mind's opinion, the energies of Sri Ramakrishna, the Holy Mother, and Swami Vivekananda, and more that I cannot comprehend , are being manifested in Mata Amritanandamayi. The 108 names of Mata Amrtanandamayi refer to this cosmic relationship and divine drama in verses 56, 57,58, and 59. Most, if not all, of Hindu India considers Sri Ramakrishna, and his wife the Holy Mother, to be divine incarnations. My view: who is, or was Sri Ramakrishna, and the Holy Mother...............each finds the answer to that in his/her own heart. Any my heart is forever grateful for the guidance they have given me on my own spiritual path. I hope this helps. I have a lot of books in the home from the Ramakrishna Misssion, so if you need a refernce about some point, please feel free to ask me. In Amma, Sara Ammachi, "Dixie Thacker" <dixielou@s...> wrote: > Om Namaha Shivaya! > > Someone on the list mentioned Sri Ramakrishna sometime ago and since I was not familiar with him, I decided to read about him; I'm currently reading "Ramakrishna as we knew him." > > Please, please forgive my ignorance in these matters; is Ramakrishna considered an avatar? I have no frame of reference and many of the memoirs published in the book are by those who were in his circle of devotees so that doesn't help much. I am also curious about the fact that Ramakrishna said that he would incarnate again after 100 years - he died in 1843, which means that the 100 years have passed. Has there been any speculation/information about his return? > > Thanks in advance for any thoughts you have on this; I always appreciate the effort you make on my behalf. > > At Mother's feet, > Snehalata > > Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! Links Ammachi/ b.. Ammachi c.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2004 Report Share Posted January 10, 2004 - "Ramlal" <conte <Ammachi> Saturday, January 10, 2004 12:41 PM Re: Ramakrishna Dear Ramlal, Thank you for your kindness; I truly never know if my questions are valid or sheer idiocy. And thank you, too, for catching the error about Sri Ramakrishna's year of death - Sara commented on this, too and I realized I had tnagled His death with the death of Khudiram. WHat interested me, tho, was that the 100 years have still passed - and when I read His prediction, my first thought was "Amma was born right after that!" Now, with the corrected date, She does not fall after the 100 years but I truly wonder if She could be the physical reincarnation. Either way, we are truly blessed, aren't we? I will definitely get the book you mentioned as soon as I can; the one I am reading now is also translated by Chetananda and I am delighted with it. And thanks for pointing out that the "M" mentioned in the book I'm reading (Ramakrishna as We Saw Him) is the same one Yogananda mentions in his autobiography. Again, thanks for clarifying this. After the discussions we had on the list about dualist/nondualists, I didn't know what to think when I saw "Vedanta" linked to His name. My inclination was to believe that Sri Ramakrishna was someone I would have wanted to know and it's nice to find out that others hold Him in high regard. Always, Snehalata > Dear Snehalata, > > Great questions! > > Sri Ramakrishna has been my Chosen Ideal for many years. The classic > introduction is "The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna", a book of dialogues > covering a 5-year period ending in 1886 with the Master's passing. It was > written by a householder devotee named Mahendra Nath Gupta (or "M", as he > signed his works), translated from Bengali, and published in English in > 1942. ("M" is also the subject of ch. 9 of Yogananda's "Autobiography of > a Yogi"). > > However, there is another book, just published in December 2003, called > "Sri Ramakrishna and His Divine Play". I can't recommend it enough - I > wish I could put a copy in every library in America. This is a fresh > translation of a tremendously important original source book called "Sri > Sri Ramakrishna Lilaprasanga". It covers the Master's entire life in > depth and is generously supplemented by footnotes, a glossary, and an > exhaustive table of contents. The translator is Swami Chetanananda, head > of the St. Louis Vedanta Society (and my revered guru!) Although not the > same text as M's "Gospel", my son's comment on reviewing the book was > "it's like reading the New International Version, and the Gospel is like > reading the King James!" > > Anything you read about Sri Ramakrishna will bless you a thousand times > over, and will enrich your relationship with Amma in every way. > "56. ...whose nature and all qualities remind us of Sri Sarada Devi. > 57. ...in whom is reflected the forms of Sri Ramakrishna and Sarada > Devi. 58. ...in whom we can see the play of these two re-enacted. > 59. ...who is the ocean of ambrosia in which the waves of the various > plays of Sri Ramakrishna and Ssarada Devi arise." (from Astottara Sata > Namavali, MA Center). > > > is Ramakrishna considered > > an avatar? > > Yes. The Master told Vivekananda "He who was Krishna, He who was Rama, is > now Ramakrishna in this body!" In the course of His sadhana Ramakrishna > was investigated and declared an avatar by a panel of Vedic pundits. > > > I am also curious about the fact that Ramakrishna said that he would > > incarnate > > again after 100 years - he died in 1843, which means that the 100 years > > have > > passed. Has there been any speculation/information about his return? > > Well, He actually passed in 1886, not 1843. There's been some > speculation, but I'm not much interested; it's more important to realize > that Ramakrishna never left us! > > Pranams, > > Ramlal > > > -- > Om! Sthapakaya Ca Dharmasya > Sarva-Dharma-Svarupine > Avatara-Varishthaya > Ramakrishnaya Te Namaha! > > Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! > > Links > > > Ammachi/ > > > Ammachi > > Your > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2004 Report Share Posted January 10, 2004 Dear Snehalata, On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:58:16 -0500, Dixie Thacker <dixielou wrote: > Thank you for your kindness; I truly never know if my questions are > valid > or sheer idiocy. Questions from the heart are always right. God speaks there. > I will definitely get the book you mentioned as soon as I can; the one I > am > reading now is also translated by Chetananda and I am delighted with it. Chetanananda-ji is a fine scholar and an ardent lover of God. His words are as altar-flowers offered to the Lord. To purchase, or to learn more, you could visit http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0916356817/qid=1073773388/sr=1-27/\ ref=sr_1_27/102-7022257-7542545?v=glance&s=books > And thanks for pointing out that the "M" mentioned in the book I'm > reading > (Ramakrishna as We Saw Him) is the same one Yogananda mentions in his > autobiography. The inter-connections between the great ones are fascinating! > ...After the discussions we had on the list > about dualist/nondualists, I didn't know what to think when I saw > "Vedanta" > linked to His name. He embodied and articulated the solution to the puzzle. > My inclination was to believe that Sri Ramakrishna was someone I would > have > wanted to know... Visit the Ammachi "Photos" section and meet Him - I've uploaded some files at http://photos.ammachi/lst?.dir=/Sri+Ramakrishna+and+Sarad\ a+Devi&.src=gr&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//briefcase./ Pranams, Ramlal -- Om! Sthapakaya Ca Dharmasya Sarva-Dharma-Svarupine Avatara-Varishthaya Ramakrishnaya Te Namaha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2004 Report Share Posted January 10, 2004 Another beautiful introduction (perhaps especially for westerners) is Lex Hixon's "Great Swan: Meetings with Ramakrishna." http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/087773660X/qid=1073775888// ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i8_xgl14/103-9779859-6928668?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 Blessings, Iswari Ammachi, Ramlal <conte@i...> wrote: > Dear Snehalata, > > Great questions! > > Sri Ramakrishna has been my Chosen Ideal for many years. The classic > introduction is "The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna", a book of dialogues > covering a 5-year period ending in 1886 with the Master's passing. It was > written by a householder devotee named Mahendra Nath Gupta (or "M", as he > signed his works), translated from Bengali, and published in English in > 1942. ("M" is also the subject of ch. 9 of Yogananda's "Autobiography of > a Yogi"). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 > I wanted to comment on this because over the Xmas holiday a man I > know from Calcutta told me that in the Bengali version (original) of > the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna, the Master says something to the > effect that he will be born northwest of India (I thought he had said > in 200 years, but maybe it was 100) Om Namo Bhagavate Sri Ramakrsnaya Namo Namah! i trust that Divine Mother is blessing one and all on this group! in reference to the being reborn in the northwest of India, that was commented upon in the longer English version of the Gospel in the forward i think....He said that he could be "found" as far as i remember, in the northwest of India in about a hundred years, travelling with a group of spiritual musicians...(like the Bauls of Bengal probably), and that he would be found to be puffing upon his hubble bubble....(a hookah)... At another point , he had stated that he wanted to be reborn in the next life as a WOMAN, such that he could REALLY LOVE Sri KRSNA.... in these cases, Amma is indeed fitting the requirements, except for the Hubble bubble...She is often found travelling thru North west India with her band of musicians, singing and giving Darshan.... She is a woman (just as he wished to be in the next life)... Her advice is often identical to that which both Bhagavan and His wife, Sri Sarada Devi used to give...very simple, practical, based on real life, rather than vast quotations of scriptures written by other people....Both also loved to sing and could move audiences to tears with their devotional singing... Sri Sarada Devi saw her husband to be an incarnation of Mother Kali...Her Devotees saw HER to be an incarnation of the same Mother Kali....and we today see that our Amma is also an incarnation of the Beautiful Mother Kali....Who has promised from time immemorial to take a birth on this Earth plane whenever Dharma declines, and unrighteousness is in the ascendant...when the Demons, the Asuras, are running wild over the earth...it was happening then and is happening now too.. i believe that Sri Ramakrsna's mission was to prepare the way for the coming of our Divine Mother Kali into Her Own realm, for the reawakening of the Divine Feminine Energy...to prepare the WEST particularly for Her Advent....He told Naren early that he had many devotees in the West...cause he had seen them in samadhi...he travelled to their lands (probably in the future too)...and he saw MANY people in the west speaking languages he couldn't understand, but who were honouring His Picture...and were worshipping the Divine Thru His Grace...He then more or less sent Sw. Vivekanandaji to the West to prepare the way...Swamiji, Who was possessed entirely by the Divine Mother, Kali, Who had felt Her to come into his body from his Master's body, shortly before the Master entered into Mahasamadhi....and Swamiji said that ever since that day, he had NOT a MOMENT"S rest...Mother drove Her Child then just as She is driving many of Her children today, and due to Her tireless efforts, and Her Grace, Swamiji (Vivekanandaji) was blessed to be able to found his missions in the West...and the Mother began to work from behind the scenes preparing folks for Her eventual advent... then in 1920, along came Yoganandaji, who was ALSO a big devotee of the SAME Kalima Who was adored by Sri Ramakrsna, Sri Sarada Devi, and Sri Swami Vivekanandaji!! and in fact worshipped the very SAME Murti of Mother Kali, Who was to be found in the Dakshineswar Temple.... also, when Amma went to visit Dakshineswar, without being told, She followed the exact same path which Sri Sarada Devi used to use to come to see Her Husband...and when Amma had Darshan of the Dakshineswari Kali, She was so loving that image that She requested to have a sister image made of the exact same Kali, and it was sculpted for Her by the exact same family of sculptors which had been so honoured as to be able to sculpt the original Kali statue in the Dakshineswar Temple....that very same Kali statue is reigning supreme in Amritpuri, at Amma's Ashram Temple..... if you read the Gospel of Sri Ramakrsna, and then you read a few pages from Amma's "Awaken Children" series, you will find them to be SO similar that it's uncanny....in fact Amma's series of books appears to be a nice continuation of the same Lovely Sakta teachings which Sri Ramakrsna used to give so long ago... So whether Amma is or is not an incarnation of Sri Ramakrsna and Sri Sarada Devi, as seems to be implied by the Names which were earlier quoted by several folks, yet, THEY were considered to be Mother Kali's Avataras, and Amma too is considered by SO many to be an Avatara of Mother Kali.... As for Advaita, it has been said by many that i would trust, that Sri Ramakrsna has been whitewashed by his devotees into BECOMING an adovocate of Advaita...but in reality, just as Amma, He never preached Advaita to the masses...in fact he suggested, just as Amma does, that in the Kali Yuga, Advaita approaches, such as Jnana are too difficult for the average folks...that we simply do NOT live long enough to be able to do a significant Jnana Sadhana... What Bhagavan preached, and what Amma preaches, is that BHAKTI is the Sovereign solution...the perfect sadhana for MOST folks alive today, because it is the easiest, takes the least amount of time and effort...and besides, just like the jack fruit tree, the fruits are to be found even on the trunk near to the bottom of the tree....Devotion has its own rewards, almost immediately. However, Devotion was not popular during the late 19th and early 20th centuries...even up to today for many folks, because of the popularity of Science and REason, and the socalled Materialistic view of the Universe...so devotion didn't taste so good to those dry minded scientific types...and so the Ramakrsna swamis recast their Guru, Who was really a MAJOR advocate of BHAKTI rather than Jnana, into the "scientificadvaita" mold... Sri Ramakrsna had Himself been instructed by the Mother Kali to NOt remain in the Jnani states...to NOT remain in the in the Brahman ...to not remain in the undifferentiated consciousnes, which he was so fond of...instead She told him to come down to a lower level to a level where there is THOU and I...to a level where he could teach, and express his understandings and inspirations...if he had remained in the Brahman consciousness, he would have been USELESS for Mother's work...so he tried very hard to remain in that lower devotional state...which was so much more accessible to his devotees... the same occurred with our Amma, when She used to hide out in the sand holes...throwing stones at people and telling them to go away...eventually Divine Mother appeared to Amma, and told Her that She was not born to experience unalloyed bliss alone...that she should worship the Divine Mother in all Her forms...and not keep it all to Herself....the which Amma has been faithfully carrying out ever since the Mother gave Her that command. hope that this has been of some interest to you all.... In Amma's Divine Love, and in Her Service, as ever, your own self, visvanathan Om Amrtesvaryai Namah! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2004 Report Share Posted January 15, 2004 Visvanathan, This is wonderful that you're sharing this with us. Thanks again! My Bengali friend did say for certain that it's in the Bengali text and he seemed pretty certain that it was northwest of India...but I'll have to send him back to the texts. Whether or not this is Amma...it doesn't matter. We know she is the Divine Mother. Lisa Ammachi, "kasi_visvanath" <kasi_visvanath> wrote: > > > I wanted to comment on this because over the Xmas holiday a man I > > know from Calcutta told me that in the Bengali version (original) > of > > the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna, the Master says something to the > > effect that he will be born northwest of India (I thought he had > said > > in 200 years, but maybe it was 100) > > Om Namo Bhagavate Sri Ramakrsnaya Namo Namah! > > i trust that Divine Mother is blessing one and all on this group! > > in reference to the being reborn in the northwest of India, that was > commented upon in the longer English version of the Gospel in the > forward i think....He said that he could be "found" as far as i > remember, in the northwest of India in about a hundred years, > travelling with a group of spiritual musicians...(like the Bauls of > Bengal probably), and that he would be found to be puffing upon his > hubble bubble....(a hookah)... > > At another point , he had stated that he wanted to be reborn in the > next life as a WOMAN, such that he could REALLY LOVE Sri KRSNA.... > > in these cases, Amma is indeed fitting the requirements, except for > the Hubble bubble...She is often found travelling thru North west > India with her band of musicians, singing and giving Darshan.... > > She is a woman (just as he wished to be in the next life)... > > Her advice is often identical to that which both Bhagavan and His > wife, Sri Sarada Devi used to give...very simple, practical, based on > real life, rather than vast quotations of scriptures written by other > people....Both also loved to sing and could move audiences to tears > with their devotional singing... > > Sri Sarada Devi saw her husband to be an incarnation of Mother > Kali...Her Devotees saw HER to be an incarnation of the same Mother > Kali....and we today see that our Amma is also an incarnation of the > Beautiful Mother Kali....Who has promised from time immemorial to > take a birth on this Earth plane whenever Dharma declines, and > unrighteousness is in the ascendant...when the Demons, the Asuras, > are running wild over the earth...it was happening then and is > happening now too.. > > i believe that Sri Ramakrsna's mission was to prepare the way for the > coming of our Divine Mother Kali into Her Own realm, for the > reawakening of the Divine Feminine Energy...to prepare the WEST > particularly for Her Advent....He told Naren early that he had many > devotees in the West...cause he had seen them in samadhi...he > travelled to their lands (probably in the future too)...and he saw > MANY people in the west speaking languages he couldn't understand, > but who were honouring His Picture...and were worshipping the Divine > Thru His Grace...He then more or less sent Sw. Vivekanandaji to the > West to prepare the way...Swamiji, Who was possessed entirely by the > Divine Mother, Kali, Who had felt Her to come into his body from his > Master's body, shortly before the Master entered into > Mahasamadhi....and Swamiji said that ever since that day, he had NOT > a MOMENT"S rest...Mother drove Her Child then just as She is driving > many of Her children today, and due to Her tireless efforts, and Her > Grace, Swamiji (Vivekanandaji) was blessed to be able to found his > missions in the West...and the Mother began to work from behind the > scenes preparing folks for Her eventual advent... > > then in 1920, along came Yoganandaji, who was ALSO a big devotee of > the SAME Kalima Who was adored by Sri Ramakrsna, Sri Sarada Devi, and > Sri Swami Vivekanandaji!! and in fact worshipped the very SAME Murti > of Mother Kali, Who was to be found in the Dakshineswar Temple.... > > also, when Amma went to visit Dakshineswar, without being told, She > followed the exact same path which Sri Sarada Devi used to use to > come to see Her Husband...and when Amma had Darshan of the > Dakshineswari Kali, She was so loving that image that She requested > to have a sister image made of the exact same Kali, and it was > sculpted for Her by the exact same family of sculptors which had been > so honoured as to be able to sculpt the original Kali statue in the > Dakshineswar Temple....that very same Kali statue is reigning supreme > in Amritpuri, at Amma's Ashram Temple..... > > if you read the Gospel of Sri Ramakrsna, and then you read a few > pages from Amma's "Awaken Children" series, you will find them to be > SO similar that it's uncanny....in fact Amma's series of books > appears to be a nice continuation of the same Lovely Sakta teachings > which Sri Ramakrsna used to give so long ago... > > So whether Amma is or is not an incarnation of Sri Ramakrsna and Sri > Sarada Devi, as seems to be implied by the Names which were earlier > quoted by several folks, yet, THEY were considered to be Mother > Kali's Avataras, and Amma too is considered by SO many to be an > Avatara of Mother Kali.... > > As for Advaita, it has been said by many that i would trust, that Sri > Ramakrsna has been whitewashed by his devotees into BECOMING an > adovocate of Advaita...but in reality, just as Amma, He never > preached Advaita to the masses...in fact he suggested, just as Amma > does, that in the Kali Yuga, Advaita approaches, such as Jnana are > too difficult for the average folks...that we simply do NOT live long > enough to be able to do a significant Jnana Sadhana... > What Bhagavan preached, and what Amma preaches, is that BHAKTI is the > Sovereign solution...the perfect sadhana for MOST folks alive today, > because it is the easiest, takes the least amount of time and > effort...and besides, just like the jack fruit tree, the fruits are > to be found even on the trunk near to the bottom of the > tree....Devotion has its own rewards, almost immediately. > > However, Devotion was not popular during the late 19th and early 20th > centuries...even up to today for many folks, because of the > popularity of Science and REason, and the socalled Materialistic view > of the Universe...so devotion didn't taste so good to those dry > minded scientific types...and so the Ramakrsna swamis recast their > Guru, Who was really a MAJOR advocate of BHAKTI rather than Jnana, > into the "scientificadvaita" mold... > > Sri Ramakrsna had Himself been instructed by the Mother Kali to NOt > remain in the Jnani states...to NOT remain in the in the > Brahman ...to not remain in the undifferentiated consciousnes, which > he was so fond of...instead She told him to come down to a lower > level to a level where there is THOU and I...to a level where he > could teach, and express his understandings and inspirations...if he > had remained in the Brahman consciousness, he would have been USELESS > for Mother's work...so he tried very hard to remain in that lower > devotional state...which was so much more accessible to his > devotees... > > the same occurred with our Amma, when She used to hide out in the > sand holes...throwing stones at people and telling them to go > away...eventually Divine Mother appeared to Amma, and told Her that > She was not born to experience unalloyed bliss alone...that she > should worship the Divine Mother in all Her forms...and not keep it > all to Herself....the which Amma has been faithfully carrying out > ever since the Mother gave Her that command. > > hope that this has been of some interest to you all.... > > In Amma's Divine Love, > and in Her Service, > as ever, > your own self, > > visvanathan > > Om Amrtesvaryai Namah! 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Guest guest Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:42:20 -0000, lbrachlin <lbrachlin wrote: > Visvanathan, > > This is wonderful that you're sharing this with us. Thanks again! My > Bengali friend did say for certain that it's in the Bengali text and > he seemed pretty certain that it was northwest of India...but I'll > have to send him back to the texts. Whether or not this is Amma...it > doesn't matter. We know she is the Divine Mother. > > Lisa Dear Ones, I've contemplated this question from a variety of perspectives, all Amma-friendly, and I still have some serious reservations. Bhagavan Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa Dev was an Avatar, no doubt. Generally He is regarded as an avatar of Vishnu, as He said "He who was Rama, He who was Krishna, is now Ramakrishna in this body. But not in your Vedantic sense!" This last phrase gives me pause, and (together with some other evidence) supplies reason to believe He was actually an incarnation of Shiva. But at any rate, He was not an Avatar of the Dasavatar type - the scriptural "group of ten" (Rama, Narasimha, Krishna, Buddha, the animal avatars, etc.) Nor is Ammachi one of the "Ten", obviously. She is a manifestation of Divine Mother, constituting yet another type of divine descent. Ramakrishna had some of this Divine Feminine in His incarnational lila, as did Chaitanya and many others. And Ammachi has manifested as Krishna. So where does that leave us? I, for one, believe we should leave large room for mystery. As Buddha said when asked about the existence of gods and goddesses, "I don't know." To which I would add, "I don't much care." God is what God is, and far be it from us to try to classify and catalog the infinite treasuries of the Divine personality in Incarnation. And beyond that, I believe we should practice courtesy and common sense. Specifically, would it not be best to leave Ramakrishna to the Ramakrishna movement? There is no more distinguished and honorable movement in India than the work of the Ramakrishna Swamis, their Maths and Missions, and I feel it is something of an affront to them to imply that they can't even find their Master if He is the body on earth today. We all delight in discovering our personal spiritual Ideal, our chosen aspect of God, manifested in Amma. It would be well to simply leave it at that. Love, Ramlal -- Om! Sthapakaya Ca Dharmasya Sarva-Dharma-Svarupine Avatara-Varishthaya Ramakrishnaya Te Namaha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 - "Ramlal" <conte <Ammachi> Friday, January 16, 2004 6:04 AM Re: Re: Ramakrishna > On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:42:20 -0000, lbrachlin <lbrachlin wrote: > > >Dear Ramlal, > I, for one, believe we should leave large room for mystery. As Buddha > said when asked about the existence of gods and goddesses, "I don't > know." To which I would add, "I don't much care." God is what God is, > and far be it from us to try to classify and catalog the infinite > treasuries of the Divine personality in Incarnation. > I disagree with you with love and respect: Ramakrishna and Paramahansa Yogandanda both state quite clearly that we have a right (perhaps even responsibility) to question God about Himself/Herself - and this included everything from form to formless to beyond to whether or not He/She even exists! If you recall, several of Ramakrishna's devotees were not believers when they met Him and Ramakrishna Himself went so far as to tell Mother that, if His first vision of Her was real, She should make a large stone nearby jump three times. Apparently He did not accept even a Holy vision without asking for verification. I originally asked the question about Amma/Ramakrishna and did not do so with any disrespect...as another list member mentioned, the connection/interactions between the "great ones" is strong and that possibility was what sparked my question. > And beyond that, I believe we should practice courtesy and common sense. I do, too, but only Mother knows our hearts to determine what is truly courteous and exemplifying common sense. When She bops me on the head for my excitement as I try to follow Her request that we spend time reading about the lives of the masters, I will know better. As I've said over and over, I am very new to eastern ideas and I may well make errors along the way. > Specifically, would it not be best to leave Ramakrishna to the Ramakrishna > movement? There is no more distinguished and honorable movement in India > than the work of the Ramakrishna Swamis, their Maths and Missions, and I > feel it is something of an affront to them to imply that they can't even > find their Master if He is the body on earth today. > If I have offended anyone, I am deeply, deeply sorry for having begun this thread - it was not my intent to do so and I certainly would not disrespect any religion or anyone's efforts to serve/know the Divine. I do, as Yogananda suggested is acceptable, include more than one avatar/diety in my daily prayers and, while I make separate, specific prayers to Mother, I also bow to Christ, Yogananda, Yuketswarji, Babaji, and now, with great respect and devotion, Ramakrishna. Again, if I have caused anyone dis-ease of mind with this thread I did not do so intentionally. > We all delight in discovering our personal spiritual Ideal, our chosen > aspect of God, manifested in Amma. It would be well to simply leave it at > that. For me that is not possible; Amma is my living guru and the Incarnation of God that I am closest to. I love Her with every cell in my body - but She did not direct my mantra to Herself. I am bound by my agreement with Her to respect others as well. With love and a clear heart on this, from Mother's feet, Snehalata > > Love, > Ramlal > > -- > Om! Sthapakaya Ca Dharmasya > Sarva-Dharma-Svarupine > Avatara-Varishthaya > Ramakrishnaya Te Namaha! > > Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! > > > Links > > > Ammachi/ > > > Ammachi > > Your > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 Namaskar, Snehalata and List! Snehalata, thank you for writing, but your note is very heavy! I know you reacted to what I wrote, but on reading your note, I am not clear that we actually disagree at all. It wasn't my intention to disagree, and I am not unhappy about the development of this thread; it has been quite helpful. A few more comments below: >> I, for one, believe we should leave large room for mystery. As Buddha >> said when asked about the existence of gods and goddesses, "I don't >> know." To which I would add, "I don't much care." God is what God is, >> and far be it from us to try to classify and catalog the infinite >> treasuries of the Divine personality in Incarnation. >> > I disagree with you with love and respect: Ramakrishna and Paramahansa > Yogandanda both state quite clearly that we have a right (perhaps even > responsibility) to question God about Himself/Herself... > I originally asked the question about > Amma/Ramakrishna and did not do so with any disrespect... as another list > member mentioned, the connection/interactions between the "great ones" is > strong and that possibility was what sparked my question. That list member was me. I am not saying not to question; just let's not assume our little minds can contain answer and grasp the Matter at hand! Quite the contrary! What "kind" of avatar was/is Ramakrishna? or Yogananda? or Ammachi? Again, I don't know (and I don't much care!) Living out here in the country, I got pretty excited finding a Bur Oak on my place, just one, in the midst of countless Red Oak trees. And I like to identify and classify all the various critters I find here in the course of my nature walks. But we can't classify and categorize avatars like we can flowers and bugs! Rumi says it pretty well: "You should try to hear the name the Holy One has for things. There is something in the phrase: 'The Holy One has taught him names.' "We name every thing according to the number of legs it has; the other one names it according to what it has inside. Moses waved his stick; he thought it was a 'rod,' but inside its name was 'dragonish snake.' "We thought the name of Umar was 'agitator against priests,' but in eternity his name is 'the one who believes.' No one knows our name until our last breath goes out." >> If I have offended anyone, I am deeply, deeply sorry for having begun >> this > thread I am not offended. I just have some concerns. The Ramakrishna Order has "lived with God" in the person of Sri Ramakrishna for over a hundred years. They (and I with them) see Ramakrishna's form, talk with Him, and experience His palpable touch every day! We have had no awareness of any lack or absence of anything in Ramakrishna, and are rather bemused to be told that He who never left us, has now returned! >> We all delight in discovering our personal spiritual Ideal, our chosen >> aspect of God, manifested in Amma. It would be well to simply leave it >> at >> that. > > For me that is not possible; Amma is my living guru and the Incarnation > of > God that I am closest to. I love Her with every cell in my body - but > She > did not direct my mantra to Herself. I am bound by my agreement with > Her to > respect others as well. Pardon, but why is not possible to simply discover our Chosen Deity in Ammachi, and having done so, to bow before the Mystery without getting caught in controversial conceptualizations of name, form, and lineage, and descent? Love, Ramlal -- Om! Sthapakaya Ca Dharmasya Sarva-Dharma-Svarupine Avatara-Varishthaya Ramakrishnaya Te Namaha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 Ammachi, Ramlal <conte@i...> wrote: > On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:42:20 -0000, lbrachlin <lbrachlin> wrote: >> > Dear Ones, > > I've contemplated this question from a variety of perspectives, all > Amma-friendly, and I still have some serious reservations. Om Namah Shivaya Ramlal and list, I, too, have contemplated this. From a limited perspective of consciousness (meaning not an all-knowing one) it's easy to find evidence for both sides of this theory. Opinions could be so strong on this issue that all minds are already made up on whatever stance one may take and nothing can change that. Everything that has been stated so far, I guess, is debateable either way. I certainly know about this, as a well-known vedic astrologer once looked at my chart and told me I could have been a lawyer, as I know how to argue both sides...and I could easily argue with him about that as well! Anyways, I remember reading something vaguely in Sw. Paramatmananda's Volume 2 of On the Road to Freedom where he talks about Amma's referring to a previous incarnation as guru and her previous ashram I think right there in Kerala where her present ashram is. To me this is believable because Amma, herself, speaks about it. Anyway, just more to think about. Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 09:55:59 -0600, Ramlal <conte wrote: > Namaskar, Snehalata and List! > > Snehalata, thank you for writing, but your note is very heavy! I know > you > reacted to what I wote... Dear List, Sorry for the duplicate posts. THIS one is a draft that my computer decided to send out, for some reason. ! Please delete my 16 Jan 2004 09:55:59 -0600 post and read instead the one sent 16 Jan 2004 10:03:47 -0600, I will delete the earlier one from the website as well. Love & blessing Ramlal -- Om! Sthapakaya Ca Dharmasya Sarva-Dharma-Svarupine Avatara-Varishthaya Ramakrishnaya Te Namaha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2004 Report Share Posted January 16, 2004 - "Ramlal" <conte <Ammachi> Friday, January 16, 2004 10:55 AM Re: Re: Ramakrishna Namaste, Ramlal, Librachlin, and all, Ramlal, you are delighting me; thank you for giving me more to think about and for bearing with me. A few thoughts/coments to follow up: > >> I, for one, believe we should leave large room for mystery. As Buddha > >> said when asked about the existence of gods and goddesses, "I don't > >> know." To which I would add, "I don't much care." God is what God is, > >> and far be it from us to try to classify and catalog the infinite > >> treasuries of the Divine personality in Incarnation. I agree completely that God is what God is, and I suspect, for me at least, that there will always be mystery because I seem unable to get past it, so to speak. When I first read the Bhagava Gita back in the seventies, I knew I had read something remarkable but was not sure why I reacted that way...and when I read Yogananda's autobiography, I desperately wanted to know God as He did: not as a mystery, not as an intellectual construct but as a live, knowable, active part of my life. The first time I even saw Amma, I walked in to the living room to find Her on the "Today" show; I had the sound completely muted so I had no idea of who She was - but I knew from first glance that I absolutely had to know Her. My mental comment actually was, quite literally, "I want what she has." Reading "Ramakrishna as We Knew Him" has hit me the same way - I want to know God as He did and as all the avatars say is possible for any of us. I really don't want the mystery any more; I want to to feel the grace, the love, and the power of That rushing through my veins, flooding my cells, leaking from my pours and standing my hair on end. When Mother said that few of us want the "real" Mother, I think I must have fallen into the oddball category that doesn't want just the hugs and the cuddling: I want the maya, the leela, the veil, whatever, ripped away, my eyes yanked open, and the Truth in my face as clearly as the burning bush burned before Moses. I want to know the intense Divine love that Mother, Ramakrishna, and Yogananda embody. > >> > > .... as another list member mentioned, the connection/interactions between the "great ones" is > > strong and that possibility was what sparked my question. > > That list member was me. > Oops...my spirit is willing, but my memory is a lazy little bugger! I usually read these about six thirty a.m. and names can slid right in and out without my meaning to lose track of them. > I am not saying not to question; just let's not assume our little minds > can contain the Matter at hand! Quite the contrary! I don't think I'm assuming that, but will continue to examine my heart and be sure of what it is doing. Seriously, even when I sound hard headed or closed minded, I do give intense consideration to other view points because I know how mistaken I can be. My monkey mind can't even help me swallow my next bite or draw my next breath without grace...or remember a brother's name, for that matter (-: I think I more am asking for Divine grace to be extended so that I can know the Truth. > What "kind" of avatar was/is Ramakrishna? or Yogananda? or Ammachi? > Again, I don't know (and I don't much care!) Living out here in the > country, I got pretty excited finding a Bur Oak on my place, just one, in > the midst of countless Red Oak trees. And I like to identify and classify > all the various critters I find here in the course of my botanizing. But > we can't classify and categorize avatars like we can flowers and bugs! Somehow I must have garbled my intent and I'm so sorry if I did. If I seem to be categorizing, it is because in Ramakrishna, Mother, Yogananda, I have found avatars who accept all of creation as the Creator's and who embody a turth that makes sense to my heart. I've been looking for true Holiness since I was a very small girl and the "category" of avatar I have put these Divinities in is the category of Absolute Truth Tellers - that's ok, isn't it? Can't we put them in a very small group of Holiness that/who make our souls leap at the mention of their names? > > > I am not offended. I just have some concerns. The Ramakrishna Order has > "lived with God" in the person of Sri Ramakrishna for over a hundred > years. They (and I with them) see Ramakrishna's form, talk with Him, and > experience His palpable touch every day! We have had no awareness of any > lack or absence of anything in Ramakrishna, and are rather bemused to be > told that He who never left us has now returned! I envy you having had an experience of Sri Ramakrisha's touch and you ability to see Him in form even now; this is what I am struggling to find for myself. > >> > Pardon, but why is not possible to simply discover our Chosen Deity in > Ammachi, and having done so, to bow before the Mystery without getting > caught in controversial conceptualizations of name, form, and lineage, and > descent? I really didn't mean to be controversial. I have, indeed, discovered my chosen Diety in Ammachi, but I am also still dazzled by the somewhat new realization that God can, has, and does, assume many beloved faces. Bowing before the mystery, though, is wearing my knees out: I may still keep nagging Mother to let me stand tall in the Truth. Thank you again for such a thought-provoking and well spoken response. And please, follow up on anything that catches your heart; I am learning each time I have to reexamine my own stance. Love, Snehalata > Love, > > Ramlal > > -- > Om! Sthapakaya Ca Dharmasya > Sarva-Dharma-Svarupine > Avatara-Varishthaya > Ramakrishnaya Te Namaha! > > Aum Amriteswarayai Namaha! > > Links > > > Ammachi/ > > > Ammachi > > Your > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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