Guest guest Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 jaigurudatta, This is one of the best talks i have come across,very enligtening. This talk is about Time and Thought. May be little hard to comprehend, took me 3 readings. Sree Guru datta Sravan THE FIRST AND LAST FREEDOM CHAPTER 20 'TIME AND TRANSFORMATION' I WOULD LIKE TO TALK a little about what is time, because I think the enrichment, the beauty and significance of that which is timeless, of that which is true, can be experienced only when we understand the whole process of time. After all, we are seeking, each in his own way, a sense of happiness, of enrichment. Surely a life that has significance, the riches of true happiness, is not of time. Like love, such a life is timeless; and to understand that which is timeless, we must not approach it through time but rather understand time. We must not utilize time as a means of attaining, realizing, apprehending the timeless. That is what we are doing most of our lives: spending time in trying to grasp that which is timeless, so it is important to understand what we mean by time, because I think it is possible to be free of time. It is very important to understand time as a whole and not partially. It is interesting to realize that our lives are mostly spent in time - time, not in the sense of chronological sequence, of minutes, hours, days and years, but in the sense of psychological memory. We live by time, we are the result of time. Our minds are the product of many yesterdays and the present is merely the passage of the past to the future. Our minds, our activities, our being, are founded on time; without time we cannot think, because thought is the result of time, thought is the product of many yesterdays and there is no thought without memory. Memory is time; for there are two kinds of time, the chronological and the psychological. There is time as yesterday by the watch and as yesterday by memory. You cannot reject chronological time; it would be absurd - you would miss your train. But is there really any time at all apart from chronological time? Obviously there is time as yesterday but is there time as the mind thinks of it? Is there time apart from the mind? Surely time, psychological time, is the product of the mind. Without the foundation of thought there is no time - time merely being memory as yesterday in conjunction with today, which moulds tomorrow. That is, memory of yesterday's experience in response to the present is creating the future - which is still the process of thought, a path of the mind. The thought process brings about psychological progress in time but is it real, as real as chronological time? And can we use that time which is of the mind as a means of understanding the eternal, the timeless? As I said, happiness is not of yesterday, happiness is not the product of time, happiness is always in the present, a timeless state. I do not know if you have noticed that when you have ecstasy, a creative joy, a series of bright clouds surrounded by dark clouds, in that moment there is no time: there is only the immediate present. The mind, coming in after the experiencing in the present, remembers and wishes to continue it, gathering more and more of itself, thereby creating time. So time is created by the `more; time is acquisition and time is also detachment, which is still an acquisition of the mind. Therefore merely disciplining the mind in time, conditioning thought within the framework of time, which is memory, surely does not reveal that which is timeless. Is transformation a matter of time? Most of us are accustomed to think that time is necessary for transformation: I am something, and to change what I am into what I should be requires time. I am greedy, with greed's results of confusion, antagonism, conflict, and misery; to bring about the transformation, which is non-greed, we think time is necessary. That is to say time is considered as a means of evolving something greater, of becoming something. The problem is this: One is violent, greedy, envious, angry, vicious or passionate. To transform what is, is time necessary? First of all, why do we want to change what is, or bring about a transformation? Why? Because what we are dissatisfies us; it creates conflict, disturbance, and, disliking that state, we want something better, something nobler, more idealistic. Therefore we desire transformation because there is pain, discomfort, conflict. Is conflict overcome by time ? If you say it will be overcome by time, you are still in conflict. You may say it will take twenty days or twenty years to get rid of conflict, to change what you are, but during that time you are still in conflict and therefore time does not bring about transformation. When we use time as a means of acquiring a quality, a virtue or a state of being, we are merely postponing or avoiding what is; and I think it is important to understand this point. greed or violence causes pain, disturbance in the world of our relationship with another, which is society; and being conscious of this state of disturbance, which we term greed or violence, we say to ourselves, "I will get out of it in time. I will practise non-violence, I will practise non-envy, I will practise peace." Now, you want to practise non-violence because violence is a state of disturbance, conflict, and you think that in time you will gain non-violence and overcome the conflict. What is actually happening? Being in a state of conflict you want to achieve a state in which there is no conflict. Now is that state of no conflict the result of time, of a duration? Obviously not; because, while you are achieving a state of non-violence, you are still being violent and are therefore still in conflict. Our problem is, can a conflict, a disturbance, be overcome in a period of time, whether it be days, years or lives? What happens when you say, "I am going to practise non-violence during a certain period of time"? The very practice indicates that you are in conflict, does it not? You would not practise if you were not resisting conflict; you say the resistance to conflict is necessary in order to overcome conflict and for that resistance you must have time. But the very resistance to conflict is itself a form of conflict. You are spending your energy in resisting conflict in the form of what you call greed, envy or violence but your mind is still in conflict, so it is important to see the falseness of the process of depending on time as a means of overcoming violence and thereby be free of that process. Then you are able to be what you are: a psychological disturbance which is violence itself. To understand anything, any human or scientific problem, what is important, what is essential? A quiet mind, is it not?, a mind that is intent on understanding. It is not a mind that is exclusive, that is trying to concentrate - which again is an effort of resistance. If I really want to understand something, there is immediately a quiet state of mind. When you want to listen to music or look at a picture which you love, which you have a feeling for, what is the state of your mind? Immediately there is a quietness, is there not? When you are listening to music, your mind does not wander all over the place; you are listening. Similarly, when you want to understand conflict, you are no longer depending on time at all; you are simply confronted with what is, which is conflict. Then immediately there comes a quietness, a stillness of mind. When you no longer depend on time as a means of transforming what is because you see the falseness of that process, then you are confronted with what is, and as you are interested to understand what is, naturally you have a quiet mind. In that alert yet passive state of mind there is understanding. So long as the mind is in conflict, blaming, resisting, condemning, there can be no understanding. If I want to understand you, I must not condemn you, obviously. It is that quiet mind, that still mind, which brings about transformation. When the mind is no longer resisting, no longer avoiding, no longer discarding or blaming what is but is simply passively aware, then in that passivity of the mind you will find, if you really go into the problem, that there comes a transformation. Revolution is only possible now, not in the future; regeneration is today, not tomorrow. If you will experiment with what I have been saying, you will find that there is immediate regeneration, a newness, a quality of freshness; because the mind is always still when it is interested, when it desires or has the intention to understand. The difficulty with most of us is that we have not the intention to understand, because we are afraid that, if we understood, it might bring about a revolutionary action in our life and therefore we resist. It is the defence mechanism that is at work when we use time or an ideal as a means of gradual transformation. Thus regeneration is only possible in the present, not in the future, not tomorrow. A man who relies on time as a means through which he can gain happiness or realize truth or God is merely deceiving himself; he is living in ignorance and therefore in conflict. A man who sees that time is not the way out of our difficulty and who is therefore free from the false, such a man naturally has the intention to understand; therefore his mind is quiet spontaneously, without compulsion, without practice. When the mind is still, tranquil, not seeking any answer or any solution, neither resisting nor avoiding - it is only then that there can be a regeneration, because then the mind is capable of perceiving what is true; and it is truth that liberates, not your effort to be free. -JIDDU KRISHNAMURTI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2005 Report Share Posted April 29, 2005 Jaya Guru Datta, I agree with content of this talk. But I have a question , If you do not need any kind of practice(Spiritual) to realise truth or god or happiness then what is the need for a Guru and all kinds of prcatices? Any answers? Guru Datta. On 4/27/05, sravan kumar <sravankumar99 wrote: > > > jaigurudatta, > > This is one of the best talks i have come across,very enligtening. > > This talk is about Time and Thought. > > May be little hard to comprehend, took me 3 readings. > > Sree Guru datta > > Sravan > > THE FIRST AND LAST FREEDOM CHAPTER 20 > > 'TIME AND TRANSFORMATION' > I WOULD LIKE TO TALK a little about what is time, because I think the enrichment, the beauty and significance of that which is timeless, of that which is true, can be experienced only when we understand the whole process of time. After all, we are seeking, each in his own way, a sense of happiness, of enrichment. Surely a life that has significance, the riches of true happiness, is not of time. Like love, such a life is timeless; and to understand that which is timeless, we must not approach it through time but rather understand time. We must not utilize time as a means of attaining, realizing, apprehending the timeless. That is what we are doing most of our lives: spending time in trying to grasp that which is timeless, so it is important to understand what we mean by time, because I think it is possible to be free of time. It is very important to understand time as a whole and not partially. > It is interesting to realize that our lives are mostly spent in time - time, not in the sense of chronological sequence, of minutes, hours, days and years, but in the sense of psychological memory. We live by time, we are the result of time. Our minds are the product of many yesterdays and the present is merely the passage of the past to the future. Our minds, our activities, our being, are founded on time; without time we cannot think, because thought is the result of time, thought is the product of many yesterdays and there is no thought without memory. Memory is time; for there are two kinds of time, the chronological and the psychological. There is time as yesterday by the watch and as yesterday by memory. You cannot reject chronological time; it would be absurd - you would miss your train. But is there really any time at all apart from chronological time? Obviously there is time as yesterday but is there time as the mind thinks of it? Is there time apart from the mind? > Surely time, psychological time, is the product of the mind. Without the foundation of thought there is no time - time merely being memory as yesterday in conjunction with today, which moulds tomorrow. That is, memory of yesterday's experience in response to the present is creating the future - which is still the process of thought, a path of the mind. The thought process brings about psychological progress in time but is it real, as real as chronological time? And can we use that time which is of the mind as a means of understanding the eternal, the timeless? As I said, happiness is not of yesterday, happiness is not the product of time, happiness is always in the present, a timeless state. I do not know if you have noticed that when you have ecstasy, a creative joy, a series of bright clouds surrounded by dark clouds, in that moment there is no time: there is only the immediate present. The mind, coming in after the experiencing in the present, remembers and wishes to continue it, > gathering more and more of itself, thereby creating time. So time is created by the `more; time is acquisition and time is also detachment, which is still an acquisition of the mind. Therefore merely disciplining the mind in time, conditioning thought within the framework of time, which is memory, surely does not reveal that which is timeless. > Is transformation a matter of time? Most of us are accustomed to think that time is necessary for transformation: I am something, and to change what I am into what I should be requires time. I am greedy, with greed's results of confusion, antagonism, conflict, and misery; to bring about the transformation, which is non-greed, we think time is necessary. That is to say time is considered as a means of evolving something greater, of becoming something. The problem is this: One is violent, greedy, envious, angry, vicious or passionate. To transform what is, is time necessary? First of all, why do we want to change what is, or bring about a transformation? Why? Because what we are dissatisfies us; it creates conflict, disturbance, and, disliking that state, we want something better, something nobler, more idealistic. Therefore we desire transformation because there is pain, discomfort, conflict. Is conflict overcome by time ? If you say it will be overcome by time, you are still in > conflict. You may say it will take twenty days or twenty years to get rid of conflict, to change what you are, but during that time you are still in conflict and therefore time does not bring about transformation. When we use time as a means of acquiring a quality, a virtue or a state of being, we are merely postponing or avoiding what is; and I think it is important to understand this point. greed or violence causes pain, disturbance in the world of our relationship with another, which is society; and being conscious of this state of disturbance, which we term greed or violence, we say to ourselves, "I will get out of it in time. I will practise non-violence, I will practise non-envy, I will practise peace." Now, you want to practise non-violence because violence is a state of disturbance, conflict, and you think that in time you will gain non-violence and overcome the conflict. What is actually happening? Being in a state of conflict you want to achieve a state in which there is > no conflict. Now is that state of no conflict the result of time, of a duration? Obviously not; because, while you are achieving a state of non-violence, you are still being violent and are therefore still in conflict. > Our problem is, can a conflict, a disturbance, be overcome in a period of time, whether it be days, years or lives? What happens when you say, "I am going to practise non-violence during a certain period of time"? The very practice indicates that you are in conflict, does it not? You would not practise if you were not resisting conflict; you say the resistance to conflict is necessary in order to overcome conflict and for that resistance you must have time. But the very resistance to conflict is itself a form of conflict. You are spending your energy in resisting conflict in the form of what you call greed, envy or violence but your mind is still in conflict, so it is important to see the falseness of the process of depending on time as a means of overcoming violence and thereby be free of that process. Then you are able to be what you are: a psychological disturbance which is violence itself. > To understand anything, any human or scientific problem, what is important, what is essential? A quiet mind, is it not?, a mind that is intent on understanding. It is not a mind that is exclusive, that is trying to concentrate - which again is an effort of resistance. If I really want to understand something, there is immediately a quiet state of mind. When you want to listen to music or look at a picture which you love, which you have a feeling for, what is the state of your mind? Immediately there is a quietness, is there not? When you are listening to music, your mind does not wander all over the place; you are listening. Similarly, when you want to understand conflict, you are no longer depending on time at all; you are simply confronted with what is, which is conflict. Then immediately there comes a quietness, a stillness of mind. When you no longer depend on time as a means of transforming what is because you see the falseness of that process, then you are confronted with > what is, and as you are interested to understand what is, naturally you have a quiet mind. In that alert yet passive state of mind there is understanding. So long as the mind is in conflict, blaming, resisting, condemning, there can be no understanding. If I want to understand you, I must not condemn you, obviously. It is that quiet mind, that still mind, which brings about transformation. When the mind is no longer resisting, no longer avoiding, no longer discarding or blaming what is but is simply passively aware, then in that passivity of the mind you will find, if you really go into the problem, that there comes a transformation. > Revolution is only possible now, not in the future; regeneration is today, not tomorrow. If you will experiment with what I have been saying, you will find that there is immediate regeneration, a newness, a quality of freshness; because the mind is always still when it is interested, when it desires or has the intention to understand. The difficulty with most of us is that we have not the intention to understand, because we are afraid that, if we understood, it might bring about a revolutionary action in our life and therefore we resist. It is the defence mechanism that is at work when we use time or an ideal as a means of gradual transformation. > Thus regeneration is only possible in the present, not in the future, not tomorrow. A man who relies on time as a means through which he can gain happiness or realize truth or God is merely deceiving himself; he is living in ignorance and therefore in conflict. A man who sees that time is not the way out of our difficulty and who is therefore free from the false, such a man naturally has the intention to understand; therefore his mind is quiet spontaneously, without compulsion, without practice. When the mind is still, tranquil, not seeking any answer or any solution, neither resisting nor avoiding - it is only then that there can be a regeneration, because then the mind is capable of perceiving what is true; and it is truth that liberates, not your effort to be free. > > -JIDDU KRISHNAMURTI > > > > > > > > > > Latest News and Additions http://www.dattapeetham.com/additions/new.html > > Pujya Sri Swamiji's travel and program schedule for 2005 > http://www.dattapeetham.com/india/calendar/calendar.html > > May 22 - 29,2005 :: 6th Datta Venkateswara Brahmotsava :: 7th Nada Mantapa Music Festival :: 63rd Birthday of Pujya Sri Swamiji :: Kriya Yoga Conference > > June 9 Toronto Canada (via Germany) :: June 14 Memphis, TN :: June 20 Charlotte NC (June 21 Concert) :: June 23 Washington DC (June 25 Concert) :: June 27 Jackson,MS :: June 30 Baton Rouge,LA (Inauguration of New Guru Nilayam) :: July 11 Steubenville,OH (Concert July 16 in Youngstown,OH) :: July 17 Datta Retreat Center (DRC), PA July 21, 2005 :: Guru Poornima Celebrations @ DRC :: July 25 Germany (Lectures on Bhagavadgita July 27,28 &29, Concert July 30) > > Sep 7 Ganapati Festival in Vijayawada Ashrama > Oct 4-14 Navaratri Festival in Mysore Ashrama > Dec 13, 14 & 15 Datta Jayanti Festival in Mysore Ashrama > > Post message: JAIGURUDATTA > > We apologize if you have received this mail in error. To from this list: send the line "" in the subject/body of a message to JAIGURUDATTA-owner > > > Links > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2005 Report Share Posted April 30, 2005 Dear fellow devotees, Jaya Guru Datta! Here are my thoughts for whatever they are worth - 1. The famous motivational speaker and author, Stephen Covey, said - Begin with the End in Mind. For most of us - our end goal is MUKTHI. 2. Brahmaanda PuraaNa said : GURU VINAA NA MUKTHI; One will not get mukthi without Guru. If you need mukthi - you need GURU. There is NO second option. 3. Our Gold Standard is the Advaitic Grand Master, the Great Sankaraachaarya. HE said - "saastrajnopi swaatantreyaNa brahmavidyaanveshaNam na kuryaath." Even if you are an erudite scholar - mastered the shadangaas, four vedas, nava vyaakaraNaas, ashthaa dasa puraaNaas, etc., you will get scholarship, but NOT mukthi. You must approach a mighty master of wisdom, a srothriya brhama nishtha, who is self realized, who had crossed the deadly ocean of samsaara, and who is capable of assisting others as well to cross the ocean of samsaara. Spending more time with us, being nice to us, joking with us, and just regurgitating and repeating from books, attracting mass audiences by special oratory and mesmerizing skills, and handsome looks are NOT necessarily the qualities of a samartha (capable) sadguru. One who is very harsh, who can quickly carve out and prescribe an individual personal path that is tailor made for each of us - be known is the kind that works; a surgeon, for example. 4. Finally, YES! there were individuals who did not have a GURU and yet attained mukthi; ex: Meerabai. While such instances are extremely rare, please be known that they had their Gurus in their past lives and did more than enough saadhana not needing the constant physical presence of a sadguru in their later births. They do have an inner/silent communication channel which is not visible to the external world. Why all this? Krishna had a GURU - Sandeepani. We worship KRISHNA and don't understand that through a capable sadguru, we accomplish our goal of reaching Krishna quickly. It is afterall our own favorite diety that sends us a GURU in our life so that we can follow him/her and reach our destination without getting lost. We don't realize it!! Not having a GURU or not committing to a GURU is like winning a very tough case in a supreme court with out a capable lawyer fighting for you on your side. Rama had a Guru, Vasishtha. Sankaraacharya had a Guru, Govinda Bhgavadpaadaachaarya. Vyaasa Maharshi had a Guru, his own father - Paraasara Maharshi. So, is there a doubt that we need GURU for our spiritual enrichment? - NOT IN MY MIND! Also, once you identify one GURU, whether you like or not, it is not a good idea to follow some one else after some time. It is OK to attend their lectures for the sake of jnaana and enrichment and assume that because of your Guru's grace alone, you were able to attend these classes or visit the other great personalities. Our saastraas (scriptures) are pretty clear about it! People who did otherwise were never happy in their lives and usually they get confused and end up no where. A rolling stone gathers no moss! Sri Guru Datta! Satyam - "jai gurudatta" <jayagurudatta "sravan kumar" <sravankumar99 Cc: <jaigurudatta> Friday, April 29, 2005 4:07 PM Re: Time & Transformation > Jaya Guru Datta, > > I agree with content of this talk. > > But I have a question , > > If you do not need any kind of practice(Spiritual) to realise truth or > god or happiness then what is the need for a Guru and all kinds of > prcatices? > > Any answers? > > Guru Datta. > > > > On 4/27/05, sravan kumar <sravankumar99 wrote: >> >> >> jaigurudatta, >> >> This is one of the best talks i have come across,very enligtening. >> >> This talk is about Time and Thought. >> >> May be little hard to comprehend, took me 3 readings. >> >> Sree Guru datta >> >> Sravan >> >> THE FIRST AND LAST FREEDOM CHAPTER 20 >> >> 'TIME AND TRANSFORMATION' >> I WOULD LIKE TO TALK a little about what is time, because I think the >> enrichment, the beauty and significance of that which is timeless, of >> that which is true, can be experienced only when we understand the whole >> process of time. After all, we are seeking, each in his own way, a sense >> of happiness, of enrichment. Surely a life that has significance, the >> riches of true happiness, is not of time. Like love, such a life is >> timeless; and to understand that which is timeless, we must not approach >> it through time but rather understand time. We must not utilize time as a >> means of attaining, realizing, apprehending the timeless. That is what we >> are doing most of our lives: spending time in trying to grasp that which >> is timeless, so it is important to understand what we mean by time, >> because I think it is possible to be free of time. It is very important >> to understand time as a whole and not partially. >> It is interesting to realize that our lives are mostly spent in >> time - time, not in the sense of chronological sequence, of minutes, >> hours, days and years, but in the sense of psychological memory. We live >> by time, we are the result of time. Our minds are the product of many >> yesterdays and the present is merely the passage of the past to the >> future. Our minds, our activities, our being, are founded on time; >> without time we cannot think, because thought is the result of time, >> thought is the product of many yesterdays and there is no thought without >> memory. Memory is time; for there are two kinds of time, the >> chronological and the psychological. There is time as yesterday by the >> watch and as yesterday by memory. You cannot reject chronological time; >> it would be absurd - you would miss your train. But is there really any >> time at all apart from chronological time? Obviously there is time as >> yesterday but is there time as the mind thinks of it? Is there time apart >> from the mind? >> Surely time, psychological time, is the product of the mind. Without the >> foundation of thought there is no time - time merely being memory as >> yesterday in conjunction with today, which moulds tomorrow. That is, >> memory of yesterday's experience in response to the present is creating >> the future - which is still the process of thought, a path of the mind. >> The thought process brings about psychological progress in time but is it >> real, as real as chronological time? And can we use that time which is of >> the mind as a means of understanding the eternal, the timeless? As I >> said, happiness is not of yesterday, happiness is not the product of >> time, happiness is always in the present, a timeless state. I do not know >> if you have noticed that when you have ecstasy, a creative joy, a series >> of bright clouds surrounded by dark clouds, in that moment there is no >> time: there is only the immediate present. The mind, coming in after the >> experiencing in the present, remembers and wishes to continue it, >> gathering more and more of itself, thereby creating time. So time is >> created by the `more; time is acquisition and time is also detachment, >> which is still an acquisition of the mind. Therefore merely disciplining >> the mind in time, conditioning thought within the framework of time, >> which is memory, surely does not reveal that which is timeless. >> Is transformation a matter of time? Most of us are accustomed to >> think that time is necessary for transformation: I am something, and to >> change what I am into what I should be requires time. I am greedy, with >> greed's results of confusion, antagonism, conflict, and misery; to bring >> about the transformation, which is non-greed, we think time is necessary. >> That is to say time is considered as a means of evolving something >> greater, of becoming something. The problem is this: One is violent, >> greedy, envious, angry, vicious or passionate. To transform what is, is >> time necessary? First of all, why do we want to change what is, or bring >> about a transformation? Why? Because what we are dissatisfies us; it >> creates conflict, disturbance, and, disliking that state, we want >> something better, something nobler, more idealistic. Therefore we desire >> transformation because there is pain, discomfort, conflict. Is conflict >> overcome by time ? If you say it will be overcome by time, you are still >> in >> conflict. You may say it will take twenty days or twenty years to get rid >> of conflict, to change what you are, but during that time you are still >> in conflict and therefore time does not bring about transformation. When >> we use time as a means of acquiring a quality, a virtue or a state of >> being, we are merely postponing or avoiding what is; and I think it is >> important to understand this point. greed or violence causes pain, >> disturbance in the world of our relationship with another, which is >> society; and being conscious of this state of disturbance, which we term >> greed or violence, we say to ourselves, "I will get out of it in time. I >> will practise non-violence, I will practise non-envy, I will practise >> peace." Now, you want to practise non-violence because violence is a >> state of disturbance, conflict, and you think that in time you will gain >> non-violence and overcome the conflict. What is actually happening? Being >> in a state of conflict you want to achieve a state in which there is >> no conflict. Now is that state of no conflict the result of time, of a >> duration? Obviously not; because, while you are achieving a state of >> non-violence, you are still being violent and are therefore still in >> conflict. >> Our problem is, can a conflict, a disturbance, be overcome in a >> period of time, whether it be days, years or lives? What happens when you >> say, "I am going to practise non-violence during a certain period of >> time"? The very practice indicates that you are in conflict, does it not? >> You would not practise if you were not resisting conflict; you say the >> resistance to conflict is necessary in order to overcome conflict and for >> that resistance you must have time. But the very resistance to conflict >> is itself a form of conflict. You are spending your energy in resisting >> conflict in the form of what you call greed, envy or violence but your >> mind is still in conflict, so it is important to see the falseness of the >> process of depending on time as a means of overcoming violence and >> thereby be free of that process. Then you are able to be what you are: a >> psychological disturbance which is violence itself. >> To understand anything, any human or scientific problem, what is >> important, what is essential? A quiet mind, is it not?, a mind that is >> intent on understanding. It is not a mind that is exclusive, that is >> trying to concentrate - which again is an effort of resistance. If I >> really want to understand something, there is immediately a quiet state >> of mind. When you want to listen to music or look at a picture which you >> love, which you have a feeling for, what is the state of your mind? >> Immediately there is a quietness, is there not? When you are listening to >> music, your mind does not wander all over the place; you are listening. >> Similarly, when you want to understand conflict, you are no longer >> depending on time at all; you are simply confronted with what is, which >> is conflict. Then immediately there comes a quietness, a stillness of >> mind. When you no longer depend on time as a means of transforming what >> is because you see the falseness of that process, then you are confronted >> with >> what is, and as you are interested to understand what is, naturally you >> have a quiet mind. In that alert yet passive state of mind there is >> understanding. So long as the mind is in conflict, blaming, resisting, >> condemning, there can be no understanding. If I want to understand you, I >> must not condemn you, obviously. It is that quiet mind, that still mind, >> which brings about transformation. When the mind is no longer resisting, >> no longer avoiding, no longer discarding or blaming what is but is simply >> passively aware, then in that passivity of the mind you will find, if you >> really go into the problem, that there comes a transformation. >> Revolution is only possible now, not in the future; regeneration is >> today, not tomorrow. If you will experiment with what I have been saying, >> you will find that there is immediate regeneration, a newness, a quality >> of freshness; because the mind is always still when it is interested, >> when it desires or has the intention to understand. The difficulty with >> most of us is that we have not the intention to understand, because we >> are afraid that, if we understood, it might bring about a revolutionary >> action in our life and therefore we resist. It is the defence mechanism >> that is at work when we use time or an ideal as a means of gradual >> transformation. >> Thus regeneration is only possible in the present, not in the future, >> not tomorrow. A man who relies on time as a means through which he can >> gain happiness or realize truth or God is merely deceiving himself; he is >> living in ignorance and therefore in conflict. A man who sees that time >> is not the way out of our difficulty and who is therefore free from the >> false, such a man naturally has the intention to understand; therefore >> his mind is quiet spontaneously, without compulsion, without practice. >> When the mind is still, tranquil, not seeking any answer or any solution, >> neither resisting nor avoiding - it is only then that there can be a >> regeneration, because then the mind is capable of perceiving what is >> true; and it is truth that liberates, not your effort to be free. >> >> >> -JIDDU KRISHNAMURTI >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Latest News and Additions http://www.dattapeetham.com/additions/new.html >> >> Pujya Sri Swamiji's travel and program schedule for 2005 >> http://www.dattapeetham.com/india/calendar/calendar.html >> >> May 22 - 29,2005 :: 6th Datta Venkateswara Brahmotsava :: 7th Nada >> Mantapa Music Festival :: 63rd Birthday of Pujya Sri Swamiji :: Kriya >> Yoga Conference >> >> June 9 Toronto Canada (via Germany) :: June 14 Memphis, TN :: June 20 >> Charlotte NC (June 21 Concert) :: June 23 Washington DC (June 25 Concert) >> :: June 27 Jackson,MS :: June 30 Baton Rouge,LA (Inauguration of New Guru >> Nilayam) :: July 11 Steubenville,OH (Concert July 16 in Youngstown,OH) :: >> July 17 Datta Retreat Center (DRC), PA July 21, 2005 :: Guru Poornima >> Celebrations @ DRC :: July 25 Germany (Lectures on Bhagavadgita July >> 27,28 &29, Concert July 30) >> >> Sep 7 Ganapati Festival in Vijayawada Ashrama >> Oct 4-14 Navaratri Festival in Mysore Ashrama >> Dec 13, 14 & 15 Datta Jayanti Festival in Mysore Ashrama >> >> Post message: JAIGURUDATTA >> >> We apologize if you have received this mail in error. To from >> this list: send the line "" in the subject/body of a message >> to JAIGURUDATTA-owner >> >> >> Links >> >> >> >> >> Latest News and Additions http://www.dattapeetham.com/additions/new.html > > Pujya Sri Swamiji's travel and program schedule for 2005 > http://www.dattapeetham.com/india/calendar/calendar.html > > May 22 - 29,2005 :: 6th Datta Venkateswara Brahmotsava :: 7th Nada Mantapa > Music Festival :: 63rd Birthday of Pujya Sri Swamiji :: Kriya Yoga > Conference > > June 9 Toronto Canada (via Germany) :: June 14 Memphis, TN :: June 20 > Charlotte NC (June 21 Concert) :: June 23 Washington DC (June 25 Concert) > :: June 27 Jackson,MS :: June 30 Baton Rouge,LA (Inauguration of New Guru > Nilayam) :: July 11 Steubenville,OH (Concert July 16 in Youngstown,OH) :: > July 17 Datta Retreat Center (DRC), PA July 21, 2005 :: Guru Poornima > Celebrations @ DRC :: July 25 Germany (Lectures on Bhagavadgita July 27,28 > &29, Concert July 30) > > Sep 7 Ganapati Festival in Vijayawada Ashrama > Oct 4-14 Navaratri Festival in Mysore Ashrama > Dec 13, 14 & 15 Datta Jayanti Festival in Mysore Ashrama > > Post message: JAIGURUDATTA > > We apologize if you have received this mail in error. To from > this list: send the line "" in the subject/body of a message to > JAIGURUDATTA-owner > > > Links > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2005 Report Share Posted April 30, 2005 Excellent! Case closed. :-) Jaya Guru Datta Sri Guru Datta Hanuman JAIGURUDATTA, "Satyam" <supadrashta@c...> wrote: > Dear fellow devotees, Jaya Guru Datta! Here are my thoughts for whatever > they are worth - > > 1. The famous motivational speaker and author, Stephen Covey, said - > Begin with the End in Mind. > For most of us - our end goal is MUKTHI. > > 2. Brahmaanda PuraaNa said : GURU VINAA NA MUKTHI; One will not get > mukthi without Guru. If you need mukthi - you need GURU. There is NO > second option. > > 3. Our Gold Standard is the Advaitic Grand Master, the Great > Sankaraachaarya. > HE said - "saastrajnopi swaatantreyaNa brahmavidyaanveshaNam na > kuryaath." Even if you are an erudite scholar - mastered > the shadangaas, four vedas, nava vyaakaraNaas, ashthaa dasa puraaNaas, etc., > you will get scholarship, but NOT mukthi. You must approach > a mighty master of wisdom, a srothriya brhama nishtha, who is self realized, > who had crossed the deadly ocean of samsaara, and who is capable > of assisting others as well to cross the ocean of samsaara. > > Spending more time with us, being nice to us, joking with us, and > just regurgitating and repeating from books, attracting mass > audiences by special oratory and mesmerizing skills, and handsome looks are > NOT necessarily the qualities of a samartha > (capable) sadguru. One who is very harsh, who can quickly carve out and > prescribe an individual personal path that is tailor made for each > of us - be known is the kind that works; a surgeon, for example. > > 4. Finally, YES! there were individuals who did not have a GURU and yet > attained mukthi; ex: Meerabai. While such instances are > extremely rare, please be known that they had their Gurus in their past > lives and did more than enough saadhana not needing the > constant physical presence of a sadguru in their later births. They do have > an inner/silent communication channel which is not > visible to the external world. > > Why all this? Krishna had a GURU - Sandeepani. We worship KRISHNA > and don't understand that through a capable sadguru, we accomplish > our goal of reaching Krishna quickly. It is afterall our own favorite diety > that sends us a GURU in our life so that we can follow him/her and > reach our destination without getting lost. We don't realize it!! Not > having a GURU or not committing to a GURU is like winning a > very tough case in a supreme court with out a capable lawyer fighting > for you on your side. > > Rama had a Guru, Vasishtha. Sankaraacharya had a Guru, Govinda > Bhgavadpaadaachaarya. Vyaasa Maharshi had a Guru, his own > father - Paraasara Maharshi. > > So, is there a doubt that we need GURU for our spiritual > enrichment? - NOT IN MY MIND! > > Also, once you identify one GURU, whether you like or not, it is not > a good idea to follow some one else after some > time. It is OK to attend their lectures for the sake of jnaana and > enrichment and assume that because of your Guru's grace alone, you > were able to attend these classes or visit the other great personalities. > Our saastraas (scriptures) are pretty clear about it! People who > did otherwise were never happy in their lives and usually they get confused > and end up no where. A rolling stone gathers no moss! > > Sri Guru Datta! > > Satyam > > - > "jai gurudatta" <jayagurudatta@g...> > "sravan kumar" <sravankumar99> > Cc: <jaigurudatta> > Friday, April 29, 2005 4:07 PM > Re: Time & Transformation > > > > Jaya Guru Datta, > > > > I agree with content of this talk. > > > > But I have a question , > > > > If you do not need any kind of practice(Spiritual) to realise truth or > > god or happiness then what is the need for a Guru and all kinds of > > prcatices? > > > > Any answers? > > > > Guru Datta. > > > > > > > > On 4/27/05, sravan kumar <sravankumar99> wrote: > >> > >> > >> jaigurudatta, > >> > >> This is one of the best talks i have come across,very enligtening. > >> > >> This talk is about Time and Thought. > >> > >> May be little hard to comprehend, took me 3 readings. > >> > >> Sree Guru datta > >> > >> Sravan > >> > >> THE FIRST AND LAST FREEDOM CHAPTER 20 > >> > >> 'TIME AND TRANSFORMATION' > >> I WOULD LIKE TO TALK a little about what is time, because I think the > >> enrichment, the beauty and significance of that which is timeless, of > >> that which is true, can be experienced only when we understand the whole > >> process of time. After all, we are seeking, each in his own way, a sense > >> of happiness, of enrichment. Surely a life that has significance, the > >> riches of true happiness, is not of time. Like love, such a life is > >> timeless; and to understand that which is timeless, we must not approach > >> it through time but rather understand time. We must not utilize time as a > >> means of attaining, realizing, apprehending the timeless. That is what we > >> are doing most of our lives: spending time in trying to grasp that which > >> is timeless, so it is important to understand what we mean by time, > >> because I think it is possible to be free of time. It is very important > >> to understand time as a whole and not partially. > >> It is interesting to realize that our lives are mostly spent in > >> time - time, not in the sense of chronological sequence, of minutes, > >> hours, days and years, but in the sense of psychological memory. We live > >> by time, we are the result of time. Our minds are the product of many > >> yesterdays and the present is merely the passage of the past to the > >> future. Our minds, our activities, our being, are founded on time; > >> without time we cannot think, because thought is the result of time, > >> thought is the product of many yesterdays and there is no thought without > >> memory. Memory is time; for there are two kinds of time, the > >> chronological and the psychological. There is time as yesterday by the > >> watch and as yesterday by memory. You cannot reject chronological time; > >> it would be absurd - you would miss your train. But is there really any > >> time at all apart from chronological time? Obviously there is time as > >> yesterday but is there time as the mind thinks of it? Is there time apart > >> from the mind? > >> Surely time, psychological time, is the product of the mind. Without the > >> foundation of thought there is no time - time merely being memory as > >> yesterday in conjunction with today, which moulds tomorrow. That is, > >> memory of yesterday's experience in response to the present is creating > >> the future - which is still the process of thought, a path of the mind. > >> The thought process brings about psychological progress in time but is it > >> real, as real as chronological time? And can we use that time which is of > >> the mind as a means of understanding the eternal, the timeless? As I > >> said, happiness is not of yesterday, happiness is not the product of > >> time, happiness is always in the present, a timeless state. I do not know > >> if you have noticed that when you have ecstasy, a creative joy, a series > >> of bright clouds surrounded by dark clouds, in that moment there is no > >> time: there is only the immediate present. The mind, coming in after the > >> experiencing in the present, remembers and wishes to continue it, > >> gathering more and more of itself, thereby creating time. So time is > >> created by the `more; time is acquisition and time is also detachment, > >> which is still an acquisition of the mind. Therefore merely disciplining > >> the mind in time, conditioning thought within the framework of time, > >> which is memory, surely does not reveal that which is timeless. > >> Is transformation a matter of time? Most of us are accustomed to > >> think that time is necessary for transformation: I am something, and to > >> change what I am into what I should be requires time. I am greedy, with > >> greed's results of confusion, antagonism, conflict, and misery; to bring > >> about the transformation, which is non-greed, we think time is necessary. > >> That is to say time is considered as a means of evolving something > >> greater, of becoming something. The problem is this: One is violent, > >> greedy, envious, angry, vicious or passionate. To transform what is, is > >> time necessary? First of all, why do we want to change what is, or bring > >> about a transformation? Why? Because what we are dissatisfies us; it > >> creates conflict, disturbance, and, disliking that state, we want > >> something better, something nobler, more idealistic. Therefore we desire > >> transformation because there is pain, discomfort, conflict. Is conflict > >> overcome by time ? If you say it will be overcome by time, you are still > >> in > >> conflict. You may say it will take twenty days or twenty years to get rid > >> of conflict, to change what you are, but during that time you are still > >> in conflict and therefore time does not bring about transformation. When > >> we use time as a means of acquiring a quality, a virtue or a state of > >> being, we are merely postponing or avoiding what is; and I think it is > >> important to understand this point. greed or violence causes pain, > >> disturbance in the world of our relationship with another, which is > >> society; and being conscious of this state of disturbance, which we term > >> greed or violence, we say to ourselves, "I will get out of it in time. I > >> will practise non-violence, I will practise non-envy, I will practise > >> peace." Now, you want to practise non-violence because violence is a > >> state of disturbance, conflict, and you think that in time you will gain > >> non-violence and overcome the conflict. What is actually happening? Being > >> in a state of conflict you want to achieve a state in which there is > >> no conflict. Now is that state of no conflict the result of time, of a > >> duration? Obviously not; because, while you are achieving a state of > >> non-violence, you are still being violent and are therefore still in > >> conflict. > >> Our problem is, can a conflict, a disturbance, be overcome in a > >> period of time, whether it be days, years or lives? What happens when you > >> say, "I am going to practise non-violence during a certain period of > >> time"? The very practice indicates that you are in conflict, does it not? > >> You would not practise if you were not resisting conflict; you say the > >> resistance to conflict is necessary in order to overcome conflict and for > >> that resistance you must have time. But the very resistance to conflict > >> is itself a form of conflict. You are spending your energy in resisting > >> conflict in the form of what you call greed, envy or violence but your > >> mind is still in conflict, so it is important to see the falseness of the > >> process of depending on time as a means of overcoming violence and > >> thereby be free of that process. Then you are able to be what you are: a > >> psychological disturbance which is violence itself. > >> To understand anything, any human or scientific problem, what is > >> important, what is essential? A quiet mind, is it not?, a mind that is > >> intent on understanding. It is not a mind that is exclusive, that is > >> trying to concentrate - which again is an effort of resistance. If I > >> really want to understand something, there is immediately a quiet state > >> of mind. When you want to listen to music or look at a picture which you > >> love, which you have a feeling for, what is the state of your mind? > >> Immediately there is a quietness, is there not? When you are listening to > >> music, your mind does not wander all over the place; you are listening. > >> Similarly, when you want to understand conflict, you are no longer > >> depending on time at all; you are simply confronted with what is, which > >> is conflict. Then immediately there comes a quietness, a stillness of > >> mind. When you no longer depend on time as a means of transforming what > >> is because you see the falseness of that process, then you are confronted > >> with > >> what is, and as you are interested to understand what is, naturally you > >> have a quiet mind. In that alert yet passive state of mind there is > >> understanding. So long as the mind is in conflict, blaming, resisting, > >> condemning, there can be no understanding. If I want to understand you, I > >> must not condemn you, obviously. It is that quiet mind, that still mind, > >> which brings about transformation. When the mind is no longer resisting, > >> no longer avoiding, no longer discarding or blaming what is but is simply > >> passively aware, then in that passivity of the mind you will find, if you > >> really go into the problem, that there comes a transformation. > >> Revolution is only possible now, not in the future; regeneration is > >> today, not tomorrow. If you will experiment with what I have been saying, > >> you will find that there is immediate regeneration, a newness, a quality > >> of freshness; because the mind is always still when it is interested, > >> when it desires or has the intention to understand. The difficulty with > >> most of us is that we have not the intention to understand, because we > >> are afraid that, if we understood, it might bring about a revolutionary > >> action in our life and therefore we resist. It is the defence mechanism > >> that is at work when we use time or an ideal as a means of gradual > >> transformation. > >> Thus regeneration is only possible in the present, not in the future, > >> not tomorrow. A man who relies on time as a means through which he can > >> gain happiness or realize truth or God is merely deceiving himself; he is > >> living in ignorance and therefore in conflict. A man who sees that time > >> is not the way out of our difficulty and who is therefore free from the > >> false, such a man naturally has the intention to understand; therefore > >> his mind is quiet spontaneously, without compulsion, without practice. > >> When the mind is still, tranquil, not seeking any answer or any solution, > >> neither resisting nor avoiding - it is only then that there can be a > >> regeneration, because then the mind is capable of perceiving what is > >> true; and it is truth that liberates, not your effort to be free. > >> > >> > >> -JIDDU KRISHNAMURTI > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Latest News and Additions http://www.dattapeetham.com/additions/new.html > >> > >> Pujya Sri Swamiji's travel and program schedule for 2005 > >> http://www.dattapeetham.com/india/calendar/calendar.html > >> > >> May 22 - 29,2005 :: 6th Datta Venkateswara Brahmotsava :: 7th Nada > >> Mantapa Music Festival :: 63rd Birthday of Pujya Sri Swamiji :: Kriya > >> Yoga Conference > >> > >> June 9 Toronto Canada (via Germany) :: June 14 Memphis, TN :: June 20 > >> Charlotte NC (June 21 Concert) :: June 23 Washington DC (June 25 Concert) > >> :: June 27 Jackson,MS :: June 30 Baton Rouge,LA (Inauguration of New Guru > >> Nilayam) :: July 11 Steubenville,OH (Concert July 16 in Youngstown,OH) :: > >> July 17 Datta Retreat Center (DRC), PA July 21, 2005 :: Guru Poornima > >> Celebrations @ DRC :: July 25 Germany (Lectures on Bhagavadgita July > >> 27,28 &29, Concert July 30) > >> > >> Sep 7 Ganapati Festival in Vijayawada Ashrama > >> Oct 4-14 Navaratri Festival in Mysore Ashrama > >> Dec 13, 14 & 15 Datta Jayanti Festival in Mysore Ashrama > >> > >> Post message: JAIGURUDATTA > >> > >> We apologize if you have received this mail in error. To from > >> this list: send the line "" in the subject/body of a message > >> to JAIGURUDATTA-owner > >> > >> > >> Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Latest News and Additions http://www.dattapeetham.com/additions/new.html > > > > Pujya Sri Swamiji's travel and program schedule for 2005 > > http://www.dattapeetham.com/india/calendar/calendar.html > > > > May 22 - 29,2005 :: 6th Datta Venkateswara Brahmotsava :: 7th Nada Mantapa > > Music Festival :: 63rd Birthday of Pujya Sri Swamiji :: Kriya Yoga > > Conference > > > > June 9 Toronto Canada (via Germany) :: June 14 Memphis, TN :: June 20 > > Charlotte NC (June 21 Concert) :: June 23 Washington DC (June 25 Concert) > > :: June 27 Jackson,MS :: June 30 Baton Rouge,LA (Inauguration of New Guru > > Nilayam) :: July 11 Steubenville,OH (Concert July 16 in Youngstown,OH) :: > > July 17 Datta Retreat Center (DRC), PA July 21, 2005 :: Guru Poornima > > Celebrations @ DRC :: July 25 Germany (Lectures on Bhagavadgita July 27,28 > > &29, Concert July 30) > > > > Sep 7 Ganapati Festival in Vijayawada Ashrama > > Oct 4-14 Navaratri Festival in Mysore Ashrama > > Dec 13, 14 & 15 Datta Jayanti Festival in Mysore Ashrama > > > > Post message: JAIGURUDATTA > > > > We apologize if you have received this mail in error. To from > > this list: send the line "" in the subject/body of a message to > > JAIGURUDATTA-owner > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2005 Report Share Posted April 30, 2005 Jaya Guru datta, My answer is this , You will need guru and all kinds of spiritual practices until you realise(not intellectually but deep down in your heart) that god or truth or happiness can be found in the present moment. Then you are living in moment to moment awareness with out a choice or effort. What ever may happen or do not happen in your life you are fine with it bcos you dont have a choice. How does one come to this state?. I do not know but if you give all your energy to find the answer, wisdom may dawn on you in a split second as it had happened in the case of Gautama Budha , Lord Rama or Bhrigu. Until then you are caught up in Maya or Samsara or Ignorance , what ever you may call it. Just my 2 cents. Sree Guru Datta Sravan. jai gurudatta <jayagurudatta wrote: Jaya Guru Datta, I agree with content of this talk. But I have a question , If you do not need any kind of practice(Spiritual) to realise truth or god or happiness then what is the need for a Guru and all kinds of prcatices? Any answers? Guru Datta. On 4/27/05, sravan kumar wrote: > > > jaigurudatta, > > This is one of the best talks i have come across,very enligtening. > > This talk is about Time and Thought. > > May be little hard to comprehend, took me 3 readings. > > Sree Guru datta > > Sravan > > THE FIRST AND LAST FREEDOM CHAPTER 20 > > 'TIME AND TRANSFORMATION' > I WOULD LIKE TO TALK a little about what is time, because I think the enrichment, the beauty and significance of that which is timeless, of that which is true, can be experienced only when we understand the whole process of time. After all, we are seeking, each in his own way, a sense of happiness, of enrichment. Surely a life that has significance, the riches of true happiness, is not of time. Like love, such a life is timeless; and to understand that which is timeless, we must not approach it through time but rather understand time. We must not utilize time as a means of attaining, realizing, apprehending the timeless. That is what we are doing most of our lives: spending time in trying to grasp that which is timeless, so it is important to understand what we mean by time, because I think it is possible to be free of time. It is very important to understand time as a whole and not partially. > It is interesting to realize that our lives are mostly spent in time - time, not in the sense of chronological sequence, of minutes, hours, days and years, but in the sense of psychological memory. We live by time, we are the result of time. Our minds are the product of many yesterdays and the present is merely the passage of the past to the future. Our minds, our activities, our being, are founded on time; without time we cannot think, because thought is the result of time, thought is the product of many yesterdays and there is no thought without memory. Memory is time; for there are two kinds of time, the chronological and the psychological. There is time as yesterday by the watch and as yesterday by memory. You cannot reject chronological time; it would be absurd - you would miss your train. But is there really any time at all apart from chronological time? Obviously there is time as yesterday but is there time as the mind thinks of it? Is there time apart from the mind? > Surely time, psychological time, is the product of the mind. Without the foundation of thought there is no time - time merely being memory as yesterday in conjunction with today, which moulds tomorrow. That is, memory of yesterday's experience in response to the present is creating the future - which is still the process of thought, a path of the mind. The thought process brings about psychological progress in time but is it real, as real as chronological time? And can we use that time which is of the mind as a means of understanding the eternal, the timeless? As I said, happiness is not of yesterday, happiness is not the product of time, happiness is always in the present, a timeless state. I do not know if you have noticed that when you have ecstasy, a creative joy, a series of bright clouds surrounded by dark clouds, in that moment there is no time: there is only the immediate present. The mind, coming in after the experiencing in the present, remembers and wishes to continue it, > gathering more and more of itself, thereby creating time. So time is created by the `more; time is acquisition and time is also detachment, which is still an acquisition of the mind. Therefore merely disciplining the mind in time, conditioning thought within the framework of time, which is memory, surely does not reveal that which is timeless. > Is transformation a matter of time? Most of us are accustomed to think that time is necessary for transformation: I am something, and to change what I am into what I should be requires time. I am greedy, with greed's results of confusion, antagonism, conflict, and misery; to bring about the transformation, which is non-greed, we think time is necessary. That is to say time is considered as a means of evolving something greater, of becoming something. The problem is this: One is violent, greedy, envious, angry, vicious or passionate. To transform what is, is time necessary? First of all, why do we want to change what is, or bring about a transformation? Why? Because what we are dissatisfies us; it creates conflict, disturbance, and, disliking that state, we want something better, something nobler, more idealistic. Therefore we desire transformation because there is pain, discomfort, conflict. Is conflict overcome by time ? If you say it will be overcome by time, you are still in > conflict. You may say it will take twenty days or twenty years to get rid of conflict, to change what you are, but during that time you are still in conflict and therefore time does not bring about transformation. When we use time as a means of acquiring a quality, a virtue or a state of being, we are merely postponing or avoiding what is; and I think it is important to understand this point. greed or violence causes pain, disturbance in the world of our relationship with another, which is society; and being conscious of this state of disturbance, which we term greed or violence, we say to ourselves, "I will get out of it in time. I will practise non-violence, I will practise non-envy, I will practise peace." Now, you want to practise non-violence because violence is a state of disturbance, conflict, and you think that in time you will gain non-violence and overcome the conflict. What is actually happening? Being in a state of conflict you want to achieve a state in which there is > no conflict. Now is that state of no conflict the result of time, of a duration? Obviously not; because, while you are achieving a state of non-violence, you are still being violent and are therefore still in conflict. > Our problem is, can a conflict, a disturbance, be overcome in a period of time, whether it be days, years or lives? What happens when you say, "I am going to practise non-violence during a certain period of time"? The very practice indicates that you are in conflict, does it not? You would not practise if you were not resisting conflict; you say the resistance to conflict is necessary in order to overcome conflict and for that resistance you must have time. But the very resistance to conflict is itself a form of conflict. You are spending your energy in resisting conflict in the form of what you call greed, envy or violence but your mind is still in conflict, so it is important to see the falseness of the process of depending on time as a means of overcoming violence and thereby be free of that process. Then you are able to be what you are: a psychological disturbance which is violence itself. > To understand anything, any human or scientific problem, what is important, what is essential? A quiet mind, is it not?, a mind that is intent on understanding. It is not a mind that is exclusive, that is trying to concentrate - which again is an effort of resistance. If I really want to understand something, there is immediately a quiet state of mind. When you want to listen to music or look at a picture which you love, which you have a feeling for, what is the state of your mind? Immediately there is a quietness, is there not? When you are listening to music, your mind does not wander all over the place; you are listening. Similarly, when you want to understand conflict, you are no longer depending on time at all; you are simply confronted with what is, which is conflict. Then immediately there comes a quietness, a stillness of mind. When you no longer depend on time as a means of transforming what is because you see the falseness of that process, then you are confronted with > what is, and as you are interested to understand what is, naturally you have a quiet mind. In that alert yet passive state of mind there is understanding. So long as the mind is in conflict, blaming, resisting, condemning, there can be no understanding. If I want to understand you, I must not condemn you, obviously. It is that quiet mind, that still mind, which brings about transformation. When the mind is no longer resisting, no longer avoiding, no longer discarding or blaming what is but is simply passively aware, then in that passivity of the mind you will find, if you really go into the problem, that there comes a transformation. > Revolution is only possible now, not in the future; regeneration is today, not tomorrow. If you will experiment with what I have been saying, you will find that there is immediate regeneration, a newness, a quality of freshness; because the mind is always still when it is interested, when it desires or has the intention to understand. The difficulty with most of us is that we have not the intention to understand, because we are afraid that, if we understood, it might bring about a revolutionary action in our life and therefore we resist. It is the defence mechanism that is at work when we use time or an ideal as a means of gradual transformation. > Thus regeneration is only possible in the present, not in the future, not tomorrow. A man who relies on time as a means through which he can gain happiness or realize truth or God is merely deceiving himself; he is living in ignorance and therefore in conflict. A man who sees that time is not the way out of our difficulty and who is therefore free from the false, such a man naturally has the intention to understand; therefore his mind is quiet spontaneously, without compulsion, without practice. When the mind is still, tranquil, not seeking any answer or any solution, neither resisting nor avoiding - it is only then that there can be a regeneration, because then the mind is capable of perceiving what is true; and it is truth that liberates, not your effort to be free. > > -JIDDU KRISHNAMURTI > > > > > > > > > > Latest News and Additions http://www.dattapeetham.com/additions/new.html > > Pujya Sri Swamiji's travel and program schedule for 2005 > http://www.dattapeetham.com/india/calendar/calendar.html > > May 22 - 29,2005 :: 6th Datta Venkateswara Brahmotsava :: 7th Nada Mantapa Music Festival :: 63rd Birthday of Pujya Sri Swamiji :: Kriya Yoga Conference > > June 9 Toronto Canada (via Germany) :: June 14 Memphis, TN :: June 20 Charlotte NC (June 21 Concert) :: June 23 Washington DC (June 25 Concert) :: June 27 Jackson,MS :: June 30 Baton Rouge,LA (Inauguration of New Guru Nilayam) :: July 11 Steubenville,OH (Concert July 16 in Youngstown,OH) :: July 17 Datta Retreat Center (DRC), PA July 21, 2005 :: Guru Poornima Celebrations @ DRC :: July 25 Germany (Lectures on Bhagavadgita July 27,28 &29, Concert July 30) > > Sep 7 Ganapati Festival in Vijayawada Ashrama > Oct 4-14 Navaratri Festival in Mysore Ashrama > Dec 13, 14 & 15 Datta Jayanti Festival in Mysore Ashrama > > Post message: JAIGURUDATTA > > We apologize if you have received this mail in error. To from this list: send the line "" in the subject/body of a message to JAIGURUDATTA-owner > > > Links > > > > > Latest News and Additions http://www.dattapeetham.com/additions/new.html Pujya Sri Swamiji's travel and program schedule for 2005 http://www.dattapeetham.com/india/calendar/calendar.html May 22 - 29,2005 :: 6th Datta Venkateswara Brahmotsava :: 7th Nada Mantapa Music Festival :: 63rd Birthday of Pujya Sri Swamiji :: Kriya Yoga Conference June 9 Toronto Canada (via Germany) :: June 14 Memphis, TN :: June 20 Charlotte NC (June 21 Concert) :: June 23 Washington DC (June 25 Concert) :: June 27 Jackson,MS :: June 30 Baton Rouge,LA (Inauguration of New Guru Nilayam) :: July 11 Steubenville,OH (Concert July 16 in Youngstown,OH) :: July 17 Datta Retreat Center (DRC), PA July 21, 2005 :: Guru Poornima Celebrations @ DRC :: July 25 Germany (Lectures on Bhagavadgita July 27,28 &29, Concert July 30) Sep 7 Ganapati Festival in Vijayawada Ashrama Oct 4-14 Navaratri Festival in Mysore Ashrama Dec 13, 14 & 15 Datta Jayanti Festival in Mysore Ashrama Post message: JAIGURUDATTA We apologize if you have received this mail in error. 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Guest guest Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 jaya guru datta Thank you all for your answers. jai guru datta On 4/29/05, sarada yaddanapudi <saradayvr wrote: > Jai Guru Datta, > > What I understood from this Talk is > > It has not been mentioned anywhere in this Talk of Sri > Krishnamurty that Guru is not necessary or any other > spiritual Practice is required to calm the mind or > anything like that. It is just an analysis of various > reasons which disturb the mind. > It is only methodical Diagnosis and the remedy is > Sadguru's guidance and Our own Spiritual practice.I > suggest you to read Yogavasishta. > > Sri Guru Datta > > > --- jai gurudatta <jayagurudatta wrote: > > Jaya Guru Datta, > > > > I agree with content of this talk. > > > > But I have a question , > > > > If you do not need any kind of practice(Spiritual) > > to realise truth or > > god or happiness then what is the need for a Guru > > and all kinds of > > prcatices? > > > > Any answers? > > > > Guru Datta. > > > > > > > > On 4/27/05, sravan kumar <sravankumar99 > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > jaigurudatta, > > > > > > This is one of the best talks i have come > > across,very enligtening. > > > > > > This talk is about Time and Thought. > > > > > > May be little hard to comprehend, took me 3 > > readings. > > > > > > Sree Guru datta > > > > > > Sravan > > > > > > THE FIRST AND LAST FREEDOM CHAPTER 20 > > > > > > 'TIME AND TRANSFORMATION' > > > I WOULD LIKE TO TALK a little about what is time, > > because I think the enrichment, the beauty and > > significance of that which is timeless, of that > > which is true, can be experienced only when we > > understand the whole process of time. After all, we > > are seeking, each in his own way, a sense of > > happiness, of enrichment. Surely a life that has > > significance, the riches of true happiness, is not > > of time. Like love, such a life is timeless; and to > > understand that which is timeless, we must not > > approach it through time but rather understand time. > > We must not utilize time as a means of attaining, > > realizing, apprehending the timeless. That is what > > we are doing most of our lives: spending time in > > trying to grasp that which is timeless, so it is > > important to understand what we mean by time, > > because I think it is possible to be free of time. > > It is very important to understand time as a whole > > and not partially. > > > It is interesting to realize that our lives > > are mostly spent in time - time, not in the sense of > > chronological sequence, of minutes, hours, days and > > years, but in the sense of psychological memory. We > > live by time, we are the result of time. Our minds > > are the product of many yesterdays and the present > > is merely the passage of the past to the future. Our > > minds, our activities, our being, are founded on > > time; without time we cannot think, because thought > > is the result of time, thought is the product of > > many yesterdays and there is no thought without > > memory. Memory is time; for there are two kinds of > > time, the chronological and the psychological. There > > is time as yesterday by the watch and as yesterday > > by memory. You cannot reject chronological time; it > > would be absurd - you would miss your train. But is > > there really any time at all apart from > > chronological time? Obviously there is time as > > yesterday but is there time as the mind thinks of > > it? Is there time apart from the mind? > > > Surely time, psychological time, is the product of > > the mind. Without the foundation of thought there is > > no time - time merely being memory as yesterday in > > conjunction with today, which moulds tomorrow. That > > is, memory of yesterday's experience in response to > > the present is creating the future - which is still > > the process of thought, a path of the mind. The > > thought process brings about psychological progress > > in time but is it real, as real as chronological > > time? And can we use that time which is of the mind > > as a means of understanding the eternal, the > > timeless? As I said, happiness is not of yesterday, > > happiness is not the product of time, happiness is > > always in the present, a timeless state. I do not > > know if you have noticed that when you have ecstasy, > > a creative joy, a series of bright clouds surrounded > > by dark clouds, in that moment there is no time: > > there is only the immediate present. The mind, > > coming in after the experiencing in the present, > > remembers and wishes to continue it, > > > gathering more and more of itself, thereby > > creating time. So time is created by the `more; time > > is acquisition and time is also detachment, which is > > still an acquisition of the mind. Therefore merely > > disciplining the mind in time, conditioning thought > > within the framework of time, which is memory, > > surely does not reveal that which is timeless. > > > Is transformation a matter of time? Most of us > > are accustomed to think that time is necessary for > > transformation: I am something, and to change what I > > am into what I should be requires time. I am greedy, > > with greed's results of confusion, antagonism, > > conflict, and misery; to bring about the > > transformation, which is non-greed, we think time is > > necessary. That is to say time is considered as a > > means of evolving something greater, of becoming > > something. The problem is this: One is violent, > > greedy, envious, angry, vicious or passionate. To > > transform what is, is time necessary? First of all, > > why do we want to change what is, or bring about a > > transformation? Why? Because what we are > > dissatisfies us; it creates conflict, disturbance, > > and, disliking that state, we want something better, > > something nobler, more idealistic. Therefore we > > desire transformation because there is pain, > > discomfort, conflict. Is conflict overcome by time ? > > If you say it will be overcome by time, you are > > still in > > > conflict. You may say it will take twenty days or > > twenty years to get rid of conflict, to change what > > you are, but during that time you are still in > > conflict and therefore time does not bring about > > transformation. When we use time as a means of > > acquiring a quality, a virtue or a state of being, > > we are merely postponing or avoiding what is; and I > > think it is important to understand this point. > > greed or violence causes pain, disturbance in the > > world of our relationship with another, which is > > society; and being conscious of this state of > > disturbance, which we term greed or violence, we say > > to ourselves, "I will get out of it in time. I will > > practise non-violence, I will practise non-envy, I > > will practise peace." Now, you want to practise > > non-violence because violence is a state of > > disturbance, conflict, and you think that in time > > you will gain non-violence and overcome the > > conflict. What is actually happening? Being in a > > state of conflict you want to achieve a state in > > which there is > > > no conflict. Now is that state of no conflict the > > result of time, of a duration? Obviously not; > > because, while you are achieving a state of > > non-violence, you are still being violent and are > > therefore still in conflict. > > > Our problem is, can a conflict, a disturbance, > > be overcome in a period of time, whether it be days, > > years or lives? What happens when you say, "I am > > going to practise non-violence during a certain > > period of time"? The very practice indicates that > > you are in conflict, does it not? You would not > > practise if you were not resisting conflict; you say > > the resistance to conflict is necessary in order to > > overcome conflict and for that resistance you must > > have time. But the very resistance to conflict is > > itself a form of conflict. You are spending your > > energy in resisting conflict in the form of what you > > call greed, envy or violence but your mind is still > > in conflict, so it is important to see the falseness > > of the process of depending on time as a means of > > overcoming violence and thereby be free of that > > process. Then you are able to be what you are: a > > psychological disturbance which is violence itself. > > > To understand anything, any human or > > scientific problem, what is important, what is > > essential? A quiet mind, is it not?, a mind that is > > intent on understanding. It is not a mind that is > > exclusive, that is trying to concentrate - which > > again is an effort of resistance. If I really want > > to understand something, there is immediately a > > quiet state of mind. When you want to listen to > > music or look at a picture which you love, which you > > have a feeling for, what is the state of your mind? > > Immediately there is a quietness, is there not? When > > you are listening to music, your mind does not > > wander all over the place; you are listening. > > Similarly, when you want to understand conflict, you > > are no longer depending on time at all; you are > > simply confronted with what is, which is conflict. > > Then immediately there comes a quietness, a > > stillness of mind. When you no longer depend on time > > as a means of transforming what is because you see > > the falseness of that process, then you are > > confronted with > > > what is, and as you are interested to understand > > what is, naturally you have a quiet mind. In that > > alert yet passive state of mind there is > > understanding. So long as the mind is in conflict, > > blaming, resisting, condemning, there can be no > > understanding. If I want to understand you, I must > > not condemn you, obviously. It is that quiet mind, > > that still mind, which brings about transformation. > > When the mind is no longer resisting, no longer > > avoiding, no longer discarding or blaming what is > > but > === message truncated === > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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