Guest guest Posted July 23, 2005 Report Share Posted July 23, 2005 Dear Yaduvendu Prabhu All Glories to Srila Prabhupada! Please accept my humble obeisances. Hare krsna! >What a shame that devotees – who were once friends, should clash over something as >insignificant as a letter written nearly thirty years ago. You are referring to Srila Prabhupada's order(his words of direction) of July 9th 1977 as insignificant? You are an offender --wake-up prabhu! Or--- face the consequences. Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters The service of the spiritual master is essential. If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master's instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple. If one thinks that he is above consulting anyone else, including a spiritual master, he is at once an offender at the lotus feet of the Lord. Such an offender can never go back to Godhead. >We presently have many devotees who’ve been practising Krishna >Consciousness seriously for thirty to forty years. Now in their 50’s and 60’s >and having gone through all that life can throw at them, many senior >devotees are actually qualified to train newcomers in the art of devotional >service. They have matured, suffered defeats and become introspective, >some have died and the rest of us are experiencing the fleeting nature of life. >We know we have nothing to gain here and must become serious Lets examine your two points: a) on senior and b) are actually qualified to train newcomers. SB 6.7.33 Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati. The demigods continued: Do not fear criticism for being younger than us. Such etiquette does not apply in regard to Vedic mantras. Except in relationship to Vedic mantras, seniority is determined by age, but one may offer respectful obeisances even to a younger person who is advanced in chanting Vedic mantras. Therefore although you are junior in relationship to us, you may become our priest without hesitation. PURPORT It is said, vrddhatvam vayasa vina: one may be senior without being advanced in age. Even if one is not old, one gains seniority if he is senior in knowledge. Visvarupa was junior in relationship to the demigods because he was their nephew, but the demigods wanted to accept him as their priest, and therefore he would have to accept obeisances from them. The demigods explained that this should not be a cause for hesitation; he could become their priest because he was advanced in Vedic knowledge. No! they are NOT qualified prabhuji.They are NOT senior in knowledge. Do not juggle words here. No prabhuji do NOT speak LIES. FACTS HAVE SHOWN THESE SO CALLED "SENIORS" HAVE BEEN TAKEN TO COURT--AND DAMAGES AWARDED AGAINST THEM.They are draining Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON. Devotees are well aware in Gurukuli molestation cases etc. These deviants are NOT senior. 1) IF these devotees were senior then, WHY are these so called "senior devotees " not protesting at Srila Prabhupada's original books being changed? Are they ACTUALLY devotees? Of what? Self praising society who have rejected Srila Prabhupada? What is the basis of their "senior" rank? - to hijack Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON for their self promoted worship, money manufacture business from Hindus. Bas! Switch and Bait -they canvass saying Prabhupad is Guru --but you now must accept "initiation" from one of their bogus GBC recognised animal faggot and become his slave--they advertise this in back page of Srila Prabhupada's books now. Wake up! 2) Why are these so called "senior devotees" REJECTING implementing Srila Prabhupada's *Direction of Management* - ordered by Srila Prabhupada? How can one be recognised as *senior devotee* if he refuses to accept Srila Prabhupada's system? 3) Why are these so called "senior devotees" banning devotees, arranging the beating of devotees, throwing out of temple devotees who accept Srila Prabhupada as Diksa guru for ISKCON for as long as ISKCON exists? 4) Why are these so called "senior devotees" accepting hugh salaries even though Srila Prabhupada disapproved of this? Are these actually devotees ? Or- devotees of MONEY? 5) Why are these so called "senior devotees" trying to gag the those devotees who are accepting Srila Prabhupada's UNREVOKED July 9th 1977 order of Ritvik Initiations? The trees also grow old and live many thousands of years--they are senior ALSO. Growing old in ISKCON by MISLEADING others is not sign of wisdom as they are ACTUALLY are REJECTING Srila Prabhupada. THIS is WHY these WRETCHED old men clad in saffron nappies "Senior" have LOST respect. >It is simply not appropriate, reasonable or logical for situations change from >minute to minute in the material world. So for IRM representatives to say >that Iskcon is no longer Prabhupada’s movement and to disturb people’s >minds with inflammatory, anti-devotional literature, as they were doing at >London’s Ratha Yatra festival is not only objectionable (Hare Krishna’s >publicly criticising Hare Krishna’s), but is a crime against Prabhupada, who >always sought to present Krishna Consciousness nicely. >One thing must be understood – SRILA PRABHUPADA DID NOT WANT >THIS. I am not IRM representative; BUT I have to agree with them regards EXPOSING the bogus gurus---BECAUSE this is EXACTLY what Srila Prabhupada wants. You are infering "Back to Prabhupada"as "anti devotional literature". YOUR PERSONAL THIRD CLASS OPINION HAS NO VALUE.You mouth your own words to - represent- Srila Prabhupada by stating "One thing must be understood – SRILA PRABHUPADA DID NOT WANT THIS". So -ONLY YOU know what Srila Prabhupada wants? WHAT? Nobody else knows? This is twisting of words to suit what YOU want to hear instead of WHAT Srila Prabhupada ACTUALLY wants. I DOUBT YOU CAN QUOTE SRILA PRABHUPADA ON THIS---AT ALL! Prabhuji, no offense intended, but you are simply talking RUBBISH! Back to Prabhupada magazine(BTP) is QUOTING Srila Prabhupada and exposing the bogus gurus of ISKCON who have usurped Srila Prabhupada's unique Diksa position. AS LONG AS BTP fullfil the conditions stated by Srila Prabhupada as below by exposing the bogus so-called swamis and gurus - how is it "anti-devotional"? (unless you are ALSO getting paid some underhand money from the coffers of IS_CON nondevotees to voice your opinion against the Back to Prabhupada magazine BECAUSE it is becoming successful ----ARE YOU?) 71-11-30. Letter: Bahulasva I am very glad that you are challenging all of these so-called swamis and gurus. My Guru Maharaja appreciated devotees who boldly present our Vaisnava philosophy. We must take advantage of every opportunity to defeat these rascals and drive them away, so please continue this strong attitude. 730503mw.la ConversationsPrabhupada: No, it is Sanskrit. And in Bengal it is called vane asiya raja.(?) "In the forest a jackal has become king." They are like that. Nila-varna-srigalavat.(?) When... There is big story about this jackal. I will tell you some. A jackal came in the village and he fell in the tub where, what is called, the water? No, no. The water man keeps the water for dipping, making little bluish. For coloring. That blue, blue. So the washerman kept the dye water in a big tub, and the jackal fell in it. So jackal fell in it; he became blue, all blue. So he fled away, and all the animals said, "What is this animal? What is the animal? What is that animal? Oh?" All, even lion became surprised. "We have not seen this.So who are you, sir?I am sent by God to rule over you.Oh?" So they began to worship him as God, as leader. Then one day other jackals, they were crying, "Wa, wa," but the jackals cannot stop. If others jackals cry, the jackal cannot stop. So he also began to "Wa, wa." Oh, then, they, oh, this rascal is a jackal. Yavat kincin na bhasate. That these rascals are jackals. Now they are talking nonsense. We can detect that "Here is a jackal." So we have to expose them. They are not leader; they are jackals. So jackals cannot anymore rule over. That should be our propaganda. Not only scientific, all political things, social things, everything. They should be all kicked out. They should be replaced by Krsna consciousness. Then people will be happy. This should be our program. Our, this propaganda means to make people happy. It is not a business, to make business and take some money. >If Srila Prabhupada wanted to be the only guru for all time and wanted >no continuation of the disciplic succession after his departure he could >have made his wishes crystal clear, drumming it into us on a daily basis, >in his letters, classes and conversations. He didn’t do that and the little >he said about it shows how important it was to him. 68-04-12. Letter: Dayananda Regarding parampara system: there is nothing to wonder for big gaps. Just like we belong to the Brahma Sampradaya, so we accept it from Krishna to Brahma, Brahma to Narada, Narada to Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva to Madhva, and between Vyasadeva and Madhva there is a big gap. But it is sometimes said that Vyasadeva is still living, and Madhva was fortunate enough to meet him directly. In a similar way, we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita was taught to the sungod, some millions of years ago, but Krishna has mentioned only three names in this parampara system--namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku; and so these gaps do not hamper from understanding the parampara system. We have to pick up the prominent acaryas, and follow from him. There are many branches also from the parampara system, and it is not possible to record all the branches and sub-branches in the disciplic succession. We have to pick up from the authority of the acharya in whatever sampradaya we belong to. 1) Disciplic succession is NOT finnished just because YOU do not see Srila Prabhupada physically present. On the contrary Srila Prabhupada is still the CURRENT ACARYA who giving diksa. Neither did Srila Prabhupad EVER say he has stopped giving diksa. He is PROMINENT ACARYA - by his books. ALL devotees QUOTE ONLY SRILA PRABHUPADAS BOOKS- NOT OF OTHER BLIND BOGUS IMITATION "GURUS". BECAUSE they are all bogus NO BODY QUOTES the bogus gurus--FACT! Lord Krishna SPEAKS THRU the BONAFIDE acarya SAKSAD HARITEVENA. Thus Srila Prabhupada's words are RECOGNISED as AUTHORITY. This is WHY Srila Prabhupada is GURU and others-the pseudo religionists are heading toward the most obnoxious place in the universe after the completion of their spiritual master business, which they conduct simply for sense gratification. 2) Those who want to REPLACE Srila Prabhupada and give diksa in ISKCON - MUST FIRST provide PROOF that Srila Prabhupada is NO LONGER CAPABLE of giving diksa IN ORDER TO CONTINUE THE DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION OF ACARYAS. OTHERWISE DESIST from INSULTING Srila Prabhupada by promoting the bogus GBC manufactured FAGGOT animal guru worship voting system. SB 3.29.17 P Explanation of Devotional Service by Lord Kapila In Bhagavad-gita, Thirteenth Chapter, it is clearly stated that one should execute devotional service and advance on the path of spiritual knowledge by accepting the acarya. Acaryopasanam: one should worship an acarya, a spiritual master who knows things as they are. The spiritual master must be in the disciplic succession from Krsna. The predecessors of the spiritual master are his spiritual master, his grand spiritual master, his great-grand spiritual master and so on, who form the disciplic succession of acaryas. >Guru abuse is destructive because it causes devotees to loose faith in the >process. But the IRM solution of broadcasting devotee’s faults in an >aggressive and negative way is equally detrimental, as it has the same >result. Incorrect- DEVOTEES do NOT lose faith in the process.BTP also PROVES in its pages: on the contrary they become AWARE and ACCEPT THE BONAFIDE GURU SRILA PRABHUPADA. As for broadcasting the "devotees" faults: Bg 10.4-5 P The Opulence of the Absolute Satyam, truthfulness, means that facts should be presented as they are for the benefit of others. Facts should not be misrepresented. According to social conventions, it is said that one can speak the truth only when it is palatable to others. But that is not truthfulness. The truth should be spoken in a straight and forward way, so that others will understand actually what the facts are. If a man is a thief and if people are warned that he is a thief, that is truth. Although sometimes the truth is unpalatable, one should not refrain from speaking it. Truthfulness demands that the facts be presented as they are for the benefit of others. That is the definition of truth. Isopanisad 12 These rogues are the most dangerous elements in human society. Because there is no religious government, they escape punishment by the law of the state. They cannot, however, escape the law of the Supreme, who has clearly declared in the Bhagavad-gita that envious demons in the garb of religious propagandists shall be thrown into the darkest regions of hell (Bg. 16.19-20). Sri Isopanisad confirms that these pseudo religionists are heading toward the most obnoxious place in the universe after the completion of their spiritual master business, which they conduct simply for sense gratification. >If we therefore apply balanced reasoning we will conclude that >Prabhupada should not be the only guru in Iskcon. But neither should he >be eclipsed or forgotten. Similarly, his senior disciples should take >responsibility for initiating newcomers. But they should not consider >that they are initiating by their own grace, but Prabhupada’s for in the >mean lies a natural balance. 75-08-04. Letter: Madhudvisa: Regarding Sydney, that the President has left, if one does not follow the regulative principles, then he will leave. That is a fact. Has somebody else been elected? This is the function of the GBC, to see that one may not be taken away by maya. The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am in the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want. RITVIK--REPRESENTATIVE OF THE ACARYA, FOR THE PURPOSE OF PERFORMING INITIATIONS, BOTH FIRST INITIATION AND SECOND INITIATION.Madhya 24.330 Similarly, a disciple's qualifications must be observed by the spiritual master before he is accepted as a disciple. In our Krsna consciousness movement, the requirement is that one must be prepared to give up the four pillars of sinful life-illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. In Western countries especially, we first observe whether a potential disciple is prepared to follow the regulative principles. Then he is given the name of a Vaisnava servant and initiated to chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, at least sixteen rounds daily. In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE FOR AT LEAST SIX MONTHS TO A YEAR. He is then recommended for a second initiation, during which a sacred thread is offered and the disciple is accepted as a bona fide brahmana.Note:we know that without becoming a Mahabhagavata it is an offense against the chanting of the holy name(3rd offense in chanting) to be worshipped as good as God(Acarya). Ritvik --the representative of the acarya allows for this function of worshipping the acarya (Prabhupada) without slaughtering the spiritual lives of others. Madhya 24.330 When one has attained the topmost position of maha-bhagavata, he is to be accepted as a guru AND WORSHIPED EXACTLY LIKE HARI, the Personality of Godhead. ONLY SUCH A PERSON IS ELIGIBLE TO OCCUPY THE POST OF A GURU.Srila Prabhupada is REVEALING HIS POSITION AS THE JAGAD-GURU(SPIRITUAL MASTER OF THE ENTIRE WORLD). It is Prabhupada that has distributed the holy name(thru his books) all over the world. Krishna is His pure devotee Prabhupada'sproperty to give.Antya 7.12 "in the Dvapara-yuga one could satisfy Krsna or Visnu only by worshiping opulently according to the pancaratriki system, but in the age of Kali one can satisfy and worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead Hari simply by chanting His holy name." Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura explains that unless one is directly empowered by the causeless mercy of Krsna, one cannot become the SPIRITUAL MASTER OF THE ENTIRE WORLD (JAGAD-GURU). One cannot become an acarya simply by mental speculation. The true acarya presents Krsna to everyone by preaching the holy name of the Lord throughout the world. Thus the conditioned souls, purified by chanting the holy name, are liberated from the blazing fire of material existence. In this way, spiritual benefit grows increasingly full, like the waxing moon in the sky. THE TRUE ACARYA, THE SPIRITUAL MASTER OF THE ENTIRE WORLD, MUST BE CONSIDERED AN INCARNATION OF KRSNA'S MERCY. INDEED, HE IS PERSONALLY EMBRACING KRSNA. HE IS THEREFORE THE SPIRITUAL MASTER OF ALL THE VARNAS (BRAHMANA, KSATRIYA, VAISYA AND SUDRA) AND ALL THE ASRAMAS (BRAHMACARYA,GRHASTHA, VANAPRASTHA AND SANNYASA). Since he is understood to be the most advanced devotee, he is called paramahamsa-thakura. Thakura is a title of honor offered to the paramahamsa. Therefore one who acts as an acarya, directly presenting Lord Krsna by spreading His name and fame, is also to be called paramahamsa-thakura."Representative of the acarya" is also mentioned SIMILARLY in (CC24.330madhya)---this is the secret. Ritvik is the SAME.Madhya 8.100 The name Radha is derived from this verse (Bhag. 10.30.28), from thewords anayaradhitah, meaning "by Her the Lord is worshiped." Sometimes the critics of Srimad-Bhagavatam find it difficult to find Radharani's holy name, BUT THE SECRET IS DISCLOSED HERE IN THE WORD ARADHITAH, FROM WHICH THE NAME RADHA HAS COME. Of course, the name of Radharani is directly mentioned in other Puranas. This gopi's worship of Krsna is topmost, and therefore Her name is Radha, or the topmost worshiper.77-07-09.All Letter: All G.B.C., All Temple PresidentsPlease accept my humble obeisances at your feet. Recently when all ofthe GBC members were with His Divine Grace in Vrndavana, Srila Prabhupada indicated that soon He would appoint some of His senior disciples to act as "RITVIK--REPRESENTATIVE OF THE ACARYA, FOR THE PURPOSE OF PERFORMING INITIATIONS, BOTH FIRST INITIATION AND SECOND INITIATION. His Divine Grace has so far given a list of eleven disciples who will act in that capacity:His Holiness Kirtanananda SwamiHis Holiness Satsvarupa dasa GosvamiHis Holiness Jayapataka SwamiHis Holiness Tamala Krsna GosvamiHis Holiness Hrdayananda GosvamiHis Holiness Bhavananda GosvamiHis Holiness Hamsaduta SwamiHis Holiness Ramesvara SwamiHis Holiness Harikesa SwamiHis Grace Bhagavan dasa AdhikariHis Grace Jayatirtha dasa AdhikariIn the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupadarecommending a particular devotee's initiation. Now that Srila PRABHUPADA HAS NAMED THESE REPRESENTATIVES, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, THESE REPRESENTATIVES MAY ACCEPT THE DEVOTEE AS AN INITIATED DISCIPLE OF SRILA PRABHUPADA by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. THE NEWLY INITIATED DEVOTEES ARE DISCIPLES OF HIS DIVINE GRACE A.C. BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPAD, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative. After the Temple President receives a letter from these representatives giving the spiritual name or the thread, he can perform the fire yajna in the temple as was being done before. The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace's "Initiated Disciples" book.Srila Prabhupada’s signature appears in the original Note: this July 9th 1977 letter was NEVER REVOKED BY SRILA PRABHUPADA. This being the case ALL THE NEWLY INITIATED DEVOTEES ARE DISCIPLES OF HIS DIVINE GRACE A.C. BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPAD for as long as ISKCON EXISTS. Note: A History below was compiled by another devotee which shows Srila Prabhupada's intentions. History: July 9th, 1977 - "Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative." (Srila Prabhupada’s final signed Directive describing the initiation system to be followed in ISKCON, sent to all GBC's and Temple Presidents) July 11th, 1977 - "A letter has been sent to all the Temple Presidents and GBC which you should be receiving soon describing the process for initiation to be followed in the future. Srila Prabhupada has appointed thus far eleven representatives who will initiate new devotees on His behalf." (Letter from Tamala Krishna Goswami to Kirtananda describing the above system) July 19th, 1977 - "Make your own field and continue to be ritvik and act on my charge." (Room Conversation, above dictated by Srila Prabhupada to his secretary Tamala Krishna Goswami) July 31st, 1977 - "Make your own field and continue to become ritvik and act on my behalf." (Above dictation sent out to Hamsaduta Swami by Tamala Krishna Goswami in a letter) Nov 1977 - "The system of management will continue as it is now and there is no need of any change." (Srila Prabhupada's Last Will and Testament, which now comes into force for the lifetime of ISKCON) Nov 1977 - "In the event of death or failure to act for any reason of any of the said directors, a successor director or directors may be appointed by the remaining directors, provided the new director is my initiated disciple ..." (Srila Prabhupada's Last Will and Testament, which now comes into force for the lifetime of ISKCON. The above system of selecting directors can only work if Srila Prabhupada's initiated disciples exist throughout ISKCON's lifetime.) ys mahesh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2005 Report Share Posted July 28, 2005 Your position is way too fanatical. Krsna Consciousness is not a fundamentalist philosophy. Reason means to find the natural balance between extremes and there is no principle higher than reason. Yaduvendu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2005 Report Share Posted July 28, 2005 Hari Bolo Yaduvendu Prabhu! Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Sri Guru & Sri Gauranga. Thank you for your comments. I am particularly interesed in feedback from other vaishnavas. I don't believe I know you. Where do you live, what type of work do you do, and where have you studied Krisna Consciousness? For the most part the 300+- devotees who receive my newsletter seem to appreciate that I am attempting to carry out Srila Prabhupad's wish to expose people to Krishna Consciousness. I am simply doing what I can, perhaps not perfectly, but I am trying. I would appreciate it if you would help me consider your position more carefully by clarifying what statements I have made which you seem to feel are "Too Fanatical". Hoping this meets you in good spirits and enthusiastically engaged in the service of Lord Krishna. Your Servant, mayesvara dasa American Vedic Association Home Of Jagannatha 687 Villanova Road Clock, Umbrella, & Jewelry Ojai California, 93023 (805) 640-0405 md @ jagannatha.com vediculture [vediculture]On Behalf Of Jeffrey DaviesThursday, July 28, 2005 7:03vedicultureSubject: Re: [world-vedic] bhakta(devotee) v abhakta(non-devotee) Dear Mahesh, Your position is way too fanatical. Krsna Consciousness is not a fundamentalist philosophy. Reason means to find the natural balance between extremes and there is no principle higher than reason. Yaduvendu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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