Guest guest Posted January 3, 2005 Report Share Posted January 3, 2005 Dear Mahesh prabhu, Pamho, AgtSP I am very gratefull that you found all the needed references to differenciate clearly between wich class of guru Doctor Morales want to mix-up Srila Prabhupada with. I 've allways be a fool in front of my spiritual master but any self-proclaimed or elected guru is not supposed to fool us so easely now. I don't know why Doctor Morales choose those present difficult days for his attempt to incorporate Srila Prabhupada in his "hinduistic" conception of life but I will not wait untill the peacefull days to ask him to forget the name of Srila Prabhupada whenever he is in need to be approved by spiritual masters, bogus or bona fide. With this link you can have an idea of what his teaching's made and to make more realistic I joined the picture of doctor Morales. Please don't laugh! It is a serious thing. Brahmajyoti is on your screen! http://www.hinduweb.org/home/dharma_and_philosophy/vvh/ You are correct when you said we should speak the truth even if it is not palatable, a thief is a thief. This forum being a very honorable place of information, I suggest the honorable web master to moderate whenever it is necessary. As Doctor Morales , I have nothing more to say henceforward about his paper but I will follow his advice not to attempt to teach him Sanatana Dharma, to read more SP' s books and be absorbed in the maha-mantra Hare Krsna to avoid namaparadha. ys Vrajananda das - Mahesh Vrajanandana das ; vediculture Sunday, January 02, 2005 4:41 PM Re: [world-vedic] Re: FW: Radical Universalism Dr Morales wrote: Among the many Hindu leaders in recent decades who have openly>repudiated Radical Universalism and neo-Hinduism can be included:>Swami Chinmayananda, Pujya Swami Dayananda Sarasvati, Shivaya>Subramuniya Swami, Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Sri Vamadeva>Shastri, Sri Chinna Jeeyar Swami, Sri Rangapriya Swami, among many>others. We need to help facilitate the work of such truly genuine>Dharma leaders if we wish to witness the renewal of authentic>Hinduism." Furthermore, Dr Morales wrote: >I am referring to a specific class of false "swamijis" >who water down Vedic teachings, individuals who Srila Prabhupada himself >warned us about often.+++++++++++++++++++ But are they lumped together all "such truly genuine Dharma leaders" as refered to by Dr Morales? Apart from Srila Prabhupada, NOBODY on the list he mentions has come even close to accomplishing remotely reflecting what Srila Prabhupada has done. The proof is in the testing of the pudding. Why then, lump all those characters together with Srila Prabhupada? This audacity is unacceptable. Srila Prabhupada was non compromising; let Srila Prabhupada give the verdict: 72-02-12. Letter: Govinda Regarding that man Cinmayananda, he's a sinful man, I know him, at least sinful according to our four principles. He as been lecturing for 20 years, still his asrama stands vacant. Unless one's life is made up, what this lecturing will do? 750412rc.hyd ConversationsMahamsa: I heard that with my own ears. He said...Guest: From Bhagavad-gita?Mahamsa: Yes. He said "We will take the slokas which are suitable and which are not suitable, we'll reject those slokas."Prabhupada: Just see. He is to judge which is suitable, which is not suitable. Just see, this philosophy. Cinmayananda or any ordinary person, he has to judge which sloka is suitable, which is not suitable. That means he is more than Krsna. Krsna has spoken something unsuitable--which he can judge. This is the position. 760218mw.may ConversationsYasodanandana: But some way or other, he has some respect for you, Prabhupada, for the great work you have done, Cinmayananda Swami. He has some respect for you. He knows...Prabhupada: But he, he wants to keep his prestigious position.Acyutananda: Oh, yes. 760906rc.vrn ConversationsAksayananda: Plainly you have described in the Gita. You have described plainly in the Gita. No one else has done that. Cinmayananda's, this, that rascal, no one has. No one has explained that. They don't know.Prabhupada: No, anyone who is not in our disciplic succession, he's not a human being. Cinmayananda, Vivekananda, this-ananda, they simply... Ananda, there is no ananda. All nirananda. What Cinmayananda? He is supposed to be very big sannyasi, what he has done? 761225mw.bom Conversations Prabhupada: Cinmayananda is atheist. Atheist. He does not believe in Krsna. 770121r2.bhu ConversationsPrabhupada: Just see. Such... They have created this Vivekananda and Cinmayanandas, rascals, so many rascals. They have created such situation that Indian people are mostly in darkness, although God appears here in India. They have executed such thankless task, this Vivekananda, Cinmayananda and so many Mayavadis. "Ramakrishna is Bhagavan." And what is his certificate that he is Bhagavan? "He said." No. He said "I am the same Rama. I am the same Krsna." So he is taking shelter of Krsna to prove his Godhead. So why not go to original Godhead? Why shall I take the imitation? He is maintaining his position that "I am the same Krsna.So then same Krsna is authority. So why shall I not go to same Krsna? Why shall I go to you? Your authority is also Krsna. So why shall I give up original Krsna and take to an imitation Krsna? You may be the same, but I am not a very intelligent man. Why shall I go to the imitation? I shall go to the original." Hm? Is it not? "I am not so expert to understand whether you are actual or not. You are saying. There is no proof in the sastra. So let me go to the original." Is that all right, argument? "Why shall I take you? You are supporting, trying to maintain yourself." Everyone says that "I am Krsna. I am God." So India, we have to fight little. There are so many atheists. But mass of people, they are all right. 770417r2.bom ConversationsGiriraja: The lawyer asked me had I read the books of Swami Cinmayananda.Prabhupada: What did you reply?Giriraja: Well, I said that we knew what his philosophy was, and that we were not impressed by it.Tamala Krsna: He defines Krsna as the dark unknowing within. That's his definition of Krsna, Swami Cinmayananda.Prabhupada: How you explain the unknown if you do not know? How do you speak "unknown"? You know or not?Tamala Krsna: He doesn't define Krsna. I mean he doesn't speak about Krsna.Prabhupada: No, anyone. If unknown, then how do you say unknown? You know. You know Him as unknown.Tamala Krsna: Contradiction.Prabhupada: Mohitam nabhijanati mam ebhyah param avyayam. 740614rc.par ConversationsPrabhupada: Dayananda Sarasvati, he made vigorous propaganda against temple worship. Nobody cared. (laughs) Nobody...Professor La Combe: Even now, nowadays, now they are...Prabhupada: No, their influence is gone, Arya-samaja.Professor La Combe: No, I mean the Arya-samaja is no more very active now.Prabhupada: They cannot active, because whatever activity they had, they finished. The stock and energy is gone. On the balance, the advice Dr Morales give to Vrajanandana das prabhu: "Please, Yves, stop wasting your time, and the time of everyone on this discussion list fighting illusory ghosts and enemies existing only in the recesses of your own mind. Please read Srila Prabhupada's books, chant Hare Krsna, and focus your energy instead on teaching others Krsna Consciousness and Sanatana Dharma. There's a world to save out there!" It would be best also if Dr Morales himself humbly took the same advice. No offence intended. Bg 10.4-5 P The Opulence of the Absolute Asammoha, freedom from doubt and delusion, can be achieved when one is not hesitant and when he understands the transcendental philosophy. Slowly but surely he becomes free from bewilderment. Nothing should be accepted blindly; everything should be accepted with care and with caution. Ksama, forgiveness, should be practiced, and one should excuse the minor offenses of others. Satyam, truthfulness, means that facts should be presented as they are for the benefit of others. Facts should not be misrepresented. According to social conventions, it is said that one can speak the truth only when it is palatable to others. But that is not truthfulness. The truth should be spoken in a straight and forward way, so that others will understand actually what the facts are. If a man is a thief and if people are warned that he is a thief, that is truth. Although sometimes the truth is unpalatable, one should not refrain from speaking it. Truthfulness demands that the facts be presented as they are for the benefit of others. That is the definition of truth. In the service of our bonafide Jagad Guru His Divine Grace Srimad 108 Srimad A C Bhaktivendanta Swami Prabhupada. ys mahesh Attachment: (image/jpeg) croppedone.jpg [not stored] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2005 Report Share Posted February 1, 2005 Dear Members, I have been very busy lately and havent had time to comment much. I however would like to go on record as an admirer and supporter of Dr Frank Morales' work. At a time when many people are denied a correct and clear understanding about Hinduism and the world's ancient vedic culture, people like Dr Morales have dedicated their lives to highlighting the wonderful inclusivity of Vedic culture. For people like Dr Morales, its not just some hobby or agenda. Its an actual committment to the bettering of the human condition by making the ancient wisdom and experiance of the Vedic Rshis available to one and all. It is ironic if fellow Vaishnavas, who are mutually indebted to Srila Prabhupada for a correct understanding of Vedic civilization, were to discourage a Godbrother from Vedic activism. Of course, there are cases when an activist is incorrect, but in this case, it is obvious by Dr Morales' long term efforts and ongoing work, that he is continuing the mission of Srila Prabhupada. He is doing a valuable part in the ongoing Vedic renaisance. I know him personally and have always been enthused by his insight and dedication. He has personally spoken to me of his debt and gratitude to Srila Prabhupada. So there is no question of his foundation in Srila Prabhupada. I pray for the continued success of Dr Morales efforts and ask him to bless me in my efforts. Jaya Vaishnavas. At yr service, Vrndavan Parker vediculture, "Krishna Maheshwari" <kkm9@c...> wrote: > ----------------- Shrila Prabhupada's Letter ------------- > > "...We Gaudiya Vaisnava follow Srila Ramanuja's philosophy almost in the > same manner. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu gives the identification of jiva soul > as the eternal servant of Krishna and is situated as marginal potency of the > Lord based on the philosophy of acintya-bheda bheda-tattva. This is almost > similar to Visistadvaita vada. Vaisnava philosophy is now being pushed on > all over the world under the Hare Krishna movement, and we feel Sripada > Ramanuja a great support for the Vaisnava philosophical understanding. It is > like a combination of nyaya sruti and smrti prasthans. The Bhagavad-gita > supports the Vedanta Sutra brahma-sutra-padais caiva. hetumadbhir > viniscitaih. (BG. 13:5.) > > To the jiva brahma identification is one part of acintya-bheda bheda-tattva. > As spirit soul or identical brahma, or jiva brahma is identical with the > Supreme Brahma or the param brahma. In this sense jiva soul is avheda or > non-different from the param brahma. But on account of the param brahma > being the supreme, the biggest, the identical brahma or jiva brahma being > very minute, it is different from the param brahma. The summary is that the > simultaneous one and different jiva brahma is simultaneously one with and > different from the param brahma. Because it is appreciated simultaneously > which is very difficult to comprehend by the common man, this philosophy is > called acintya-bheda bheda tattva, inconceivable. This is supported by the > Katho Upanisad 2.5.13 nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. eko bahunam yo > vidadhati kaman. This is almost similar to the visista-dvaita vada. > > So far I am personally concerned, following the footsteps of my guru maharaj > Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada, we accept the principles > of all the acaryas, although officially we belong to the Madhva sampradaya. > Our sampradaya is known as the Madhva Gaudiya sampradaya. We find great > shelter at the lotus feet of Sri Ramanujacarya because his lotus feet are > the strongest fort to combat the mayavadi philosophy. > > Srila Prabhupada Letter to VSR Chakravarti, 11-22-74, Boston > > > > > > _____ > > YVES FRANCES [yves.frances@c...] > Monday, January 03, 2005 7:09 AM > Mahesh; vediculture > [world-vedic] Radical Universalism, (Doctor Morales vs) > > > > Dear Mahesh prabhu, > > > > Pamho, AgtSP > > > > I am very gratefull that you found all the needed references to > differenciate clearly between wich class of guru Doctor Morales want to > mix-up Srila Prabhupada with. I 've allways be a fool in front of my > spiritual master but any self-proclaimed or elected guru is not supposed to > fool us so easely now. > > > > > > I don't know why Doctor Morales choose those present difficult days for his > attempt to incorporate Srila Prabhupada in his "hinduistic" conception of > life but I will not wait untill the peacefull days to ask him to forget the > name of Srila Prabhupada whenever he is in need to be approved by spiritual > masters, bogus or bona fide. > > > > With this link you can have an idea of what his teaching's made and to make > more realistic I joined the picture of doctor Morales. Please don't laugh! > It is a serious thing. Brahmajyoti is on your screen! > > http://www.hinduweb.org/home/dharma_and_philosophy/vvh/ > > > > You are correct when you said we should speak the truth even if it is not > palatable, a thief is a thief. This forum being a very honorable place of > information, I suggest the honorable web master to moderate whenever it is > necessary. > > > > As Doctor Morales , I have nothing more to say henceforward about his paper > but I will follow his advice not to attempt to teach him Sanatana Dharma, to > read more SP' s books and be absorbed in the maha-mantra Hare Krsna to > avoid namaparadha. > > > > > > ys Vrajananda das > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > Mahesh <mahesh@a...> > > Vrajanandana <yves.frances@c...> das ; > vediculture > > Sunday, January 02, 2005 4:41 PM > > Re: [world-vedic] Re: FW: Radical Universalism > > > > > > Dr Morales wrote: > > Among the many Hindu leaders in recent decades who have openly > >repudiated Radical Universalism and neo-Hinduism can be included: > >Swami Chinmayananda, Pujya Swami Dayananda Sarasvati, Shivaya > >Subramuniya Swami, Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Sri Vamadeva > >Shastri, Sri Chinna Jeeyar Swami, Sri Rangapriya Swami, among many > >others. We need to help facilitate the work of such truly genuine > >Dharma leaders if we wish to witness the renewal of authentic > >Hinduism." > > > > Furthermore, Dr Morales wrote: > > >I am referring to a specific class of false "swamijis" > >who water down Vedic teachings, individuals who Srila Prabhupada himself > >warned us about often. > > +++++++++++++++++++ > > > > But are they lumped together all "such truly genuine Dharma leaders" as > refered to by Dr Morales? Apart from Srila Prabhupada, NOBODY on the list > he mentions has come even close to accomplishing remotely reflecting what > Srila Prabhupada has done. The proof is in the testing of the pudding. Why > then, lump all those characters together with Srila Prabhupada? This > audacity is unacceptable. > > > > Srila Prabhupada was non compromising; let Srila Prabhupada give the > verdict: > > > > 72-02-12. Letter: Govinda > Regarding that man Cinmayananda, he's a sinful man, I know him, at least > sinful according to our four principles. He as been lecturing for 20 years, > still his asrama stands vacant. Unless one's life is made up, what this > lecturing will do? > > > > 750412rc.hyd Conversations > Mahamsa: I heard that with my own ears. He said... > Guest: From Bhagavad-gita? > Mahamsa: Yes. He said "We will take the slokas which are suitable and which > are not suitable, we'll reject those slokas." > Prabhupada: Just see. He is to judge which is suitable, which is not > suitable. Just see, this philosophy. Cinmayananda or any ordinary person, he > has to judge which sloka is suitable, which is not suitable. That means he > is more than Krsna. Krsna has spoken something unsuitable--which he can > judge. This is the position. > > > > 760218mw.may Conversations > Yasodanandana: But some way or other, he has some respect for you, > Prabhupada, for the great work you have done, Cinmayananda Swami. He has > some respect for you. He knows... > Prabhupada: But he, he wants to keep his prestigious position. > Acyutananda: Oh, yes. > > > > 760906rc.vrn Conversations > Aksayananda: Plainly you have described in the Gita. You have described > plainly in the Gita. No one else has done that. Cinmayananda's, this, that > rascal, no one has. No one has explained that. They don't know. > Prabhupada: No, anyone who is not in our disciplic succession, he's not a > human being. Cinmayananda, Vivekananda, this-ananda, they simply... Ananda, > there is no ananda. All nirananda. What Cinmayananda? He is supposed to be > very big sannyasi, what he has done? > > > > 761225mw.bom Conversations > Prabhupada: Cinmayananda is atheist. Atheist. He does not believe in Krsna. > > > > 770121r2.bhu Conversations > Prabhupada: Just see. Such... They have created this Vivekananda and > Cinmayanandas, rascals, so many rascals. They have created such situation > that Indian people are mostly in darkness, although God appears here in > India. They have executed such thankless task, this Vivekananda, > Cinmayananda and so many Mayavadis. "Ramakrishna is Bhagavan." And what is > his certificate that he is Bhagavan? "He said." No. He said "I am the same > Rama. I am the same Krsna." So he is taking shelter of Krsna to prove his > Godhead. So why not go to original Godhead? Why shall I take the imitation? > He is maintaining his position that "I am the same Krsna.So then same > Krsna is authority. So why shall I not go to same Krsna? Why shall I go to > you? Your authority is also Krsna. So why shall I give up original Krsna and > take to an imitation Krsna? You may be the same, but I am not a very > intelligent man. Why shall I go to the imitation? I shall go to the > original." Hm? Is it not? "I am not so expert to understand whether you are > actual or not. You are saying. There is no proof in the sastra. So let me go > to the original." Is that all right, argument? "Why shall I take you? You > are supporting, trying to maintain yourself." Everyone says that "I am > Krsna. I am God." So India, we have to fight little. There are so many > atheists. But mass of people, they are all right. > > > > 770417r2.bom Conversations > Giriraja: The lawyer asked me had I read the books of Swami Cinmayananda. > Prabhupada: What did you reply? > Giriraja: Well, I said that we knew what his philosophy was, and that we > were not impressed by it. > Tamala Krsna: He defines Krsna as the dark unknowing within. That's his > definition of Krsna, Swami Cinmayananda. > Prabhupada: How you explain the unknown if you do not know? How do you speak > "unknown"? You know or not? > Tamala Krsna: He doesn't define Krsna. I mean he doesn't speak about Krsna. > Prabhupada: No, anyone. If unknown, then how do you say unknown? You know. > You know Him as unknown. > Tamala Krsna: Contradiction. > Prabhupada: Mohitam nabhijanati mam ebhyah param avyayam. > > > > 740614rc.par Conversations > Prabhupada: Dayananda Sarasvati, he made vigorous propaganda against temple > worship. Nobody cared. (laughs) Nobody... > Professor La Combe: Even now, nowadays, now they are... > Prabhupada: No, their influence is gone, Arya-samaja. > Professor La Combe: No, I mean the Arya-samaja is no more very active now. > Prabhupada: They cannot active, because whatever activity they had, they > finished. The stock and energy is gone. > > > > On the balance, the advice Dr Morales give to Vrajanandana das prabhu: > > > > "Please, Yves, stop wasting your time, and the time of everyone on this > discussion list fighting illusory ghosts and enemies existing only in the > recesses of your own mind. Please read Srila Prabhupada's books, chant > Hare Krsna, and focus your energy instead on teaching others Krsna > Consciousness and Sanatana Dharma. There's a world to save out there!" > > > > It would be best also if Dr Morales himself humbly took the same advice. > > No offence intended. > > > > Bg 10.4-5 P The Opulence of the Absolute > Asammoha, freedom from doubt and delusion, can be achieved when one is > not hesitant and when he understands the transcendental philosophy. Slowly > but surely he becomes free from bewilderment. Nothing should be accepted > blindly; everything should be accepted with care and with caution. Ksama, > forgiveness, should be practiced, and one should excuse the minor offenses > of others. Satyam, truthfulness, means that facts should be presented as > they are for the benefit of others. Facts should not be misrepresented. > According to social conventions, it is said that one can speak the truth > only when it is palatable to others. But that is not truthfulness. The truth > should be spoken in a straight and forward way, so that others will > understand actually what the facts are. If a man is a thief and if people > are warned that he is a thief, that is truth. Although sometimes the truth > is unpalatable, one should not refrain from speaking it. Truthfulness > demands that the facts be presented as they are for the benefit of others. > That is the definition of truth. > > > > In the service of our bonafide Jagad Guru > > His Divine Grace Srimad 108 Srimad A C Bhaktivendanta Swami Prabhupada. > > > > ys mahesh > > > > This is an information resource and discussion group for people interested > in the World's Ancient Vedic Culture, with a focus on its historical, > archeological and scientific aspects. Also topics about India, Hinduism, > God, and other aspects of World Culture are welcome. > Remember, Vedic Culture is not an artificial imposition, but is the natural > state of a society that is in harmony with God and the environment.Om > Shantih, Harih Om > > > > > > _____ > > Links > > * > vediculture/ > > * > vediculture > <vediculture? subject=Un> > > * > <> Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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