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"Sraddhalu Ranade" <sraddhalu@a...> wrote:

http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/disc/disc_04.html

 

Discourses/Articles

by

Swami Krishnananda

The Divine Life Society

Sivananda Ashram, Rishikesh, India

 

January 6, 1999

 

A CONVERSATION

 

[Dr. P.C. Rao, Judge on the International Tribunal of the Law

of the Sea, Sri J.S Verma, Retired Chief Justice, Supreme Court of

India, Chief Justice of Andhra Pradesh, and Swami Krishnananda are

present.]

 

Dr. P.C. Rao: Yesterday the definition you gave of a judge.

 

Swamiji: Judge is an impersonal existence.

 

Dr. P.C. Rao: It appealed to us greatly. Perhaps you mentioned that

because the three of us happen to be judges. (The Chief Justice of

India, J.S. Verma (Retd.) was also sitting.)

 

Swamiji: The Chief Justice of India is all the national principles

of justice compressed at a single point. It is the whole nation

speaking, it is not Mr. So-and-so, there is no Mr. So-and-so in the

Chief Justice. He is not a human being at all. It is the whole

nation speaking. Now, I go beyond the nation, -- the justice of the

Cosmos. What would be the proper thing in the light of the justice

of the Universe? Instead of seeing with two eyes, one sees with

millions of eyes; then there will be no partiality or even duality.

 

'Impersonal' means that one does not belong to any side,

nobody is your friend and nobody is your enemy. The universe has no

friends and enemies, because the so-called enemies are inside it

only and the friends are also inside; so, to whom does it belong? It

is like electricity, -- is electricity a friend of anybody or an

enemy of anybody? It can cook your food, heat your stove and move

the railway train, but it can also destroy life. God is not merely

creator Brahma and protector Vishnu but also destroyer Rudra. God

can do anything. He creates this beautiful earth and maintains it in

a gorgeous manner and destroys it also by flood, ravaging

earthquake, tempest, high waves of the sea, -- thousands dying.

Then, what is the work of God, what are his functions? We do not

have to give any credit to Brahma who created the world, nor praise

Vishnu for maintaining it, nor curse Rudra for destroying

everything. If a case goes in favour of somebody, we cannot say that

the Judge is a kind man because the person who won the case will

think, -- "very kind Judge, very wonderful Judge". Suppose the Judge

passes a death sentence on someone, -- "horrible, horrible" will be

the cry.

 

Now, what is the nature of this person who is giving acquittal

to somebody and granting the wish of somebody and wanting to remove

the life of somebody, also? What kind of person is he? Is he a good

man or a bad man? He is not a man at all, the whole point is this;

he is not a man. Is the sun a friendly being or an inimical one?

Without the sun we cannot breathe, we cannot exist without the sun.

But he can create sunstroke and kill someone, also. Now, why does

the sun kill a man thus? The sun's existence itself is a protective

function, but he never asks anyone to walk in the hot sun and get

sunstroke. Whose mistake is it? You curse the sun because you had

sunstroke. The Judge is a symbolic embodiment of law. There is a

policeman who puts on one kind of dress, a Judge puts on another

kind of dress, there is a Collector who puts on one kind of dress, --

but they are not human beings but functionaries varieties in law.

We have an inveterate habit of looking at things from a personal

point of view. The policeman is the embodiment of a function. He is

a function only, he is not a man, you should not call him a man, it

is an operative force working through a particular individuality

because the force cannot work without some medium, just as without a

wire, electricity cannot work. It does not jump on our head

directly, it wants a wire connection.

 

Swamiji: Is the country progressing?

 

Justice Verma: That is what I would like to ask you, Swamiji. What's

ultimately the future. This is a great country.

 

Swamiji: You have seen as a judiciary, everybody, all kinds of

people, come to you seeking advice and judgment. What kind of people

are coming to you?

 

Justice Verma: Very few of the right persons. That is what is very

distressing. So, ultimately, since I believe that this is a great

nation, and ultimately everything right should happen with men like

you still being there to guide people. But the degeneration is so

fast that it is not clear what is in store for the country as a

whole.

 

Swamiji: I don't think any trouble will come to the country; it has

been existing since centuries, it will exist further, also. It has

experienced travails of invasion right from the time of the Greek

Alexander onwards; many invaders came here but they could not uproot

the country and make it their own.

 

Justice Verma: Swamiji, personal aggression one can understand, but

here the degeneration is from within. The falling of values, I

think, in general, at every level and more so at the highest level, -

- so-called highest level. That is what is more troubling.

 

Swamiji: The answer to this question you will find in a very

interesting book written by Sri Aurobindo, 'Foundations of Indian

Culture'. Why India is continuing inspite of all these faults that

you have pointed out, and why India is not succeeding as it ought to

succeed in the comity of nations?

 

The reason for this, as he has pointed out, very wisely, is

the dichotomy created by the human perception of values, between God

and the world. No Hindu, no citizen of India can give an answer to

the question: in what way is God connected to the world? It also

means to say, in what way is an individual connected to the Creator?

Let any religious man answer this question. "God is very far away",

people will look up as if God is sitting in the skies.

 

People there are who say that they have renounced the world.

What is this 'leaving'? What is the meaning? If you have property,

you can abandon it, but do you think the world is your property?

What kind of feeling, unnecessarily, 'I have renounced everything'.

This is the kind of religion that we are practising. Because duniya

is a chhodne layak cheez hai, we have no interest in it, let

invaders come and spoil it. We shall reach God, Moksha. What does it

matter who tramples over the earth?

 

Right from the Vedas onwards, throughout the history of India,

there was not even one person who could vanquish the Muslim

invaders, or encounter the British forces. How did they become so

strong? How did India become so poor and so weak? Because the

invaders had a real God, whereas the Hindus clung to an unreal God --

unreal God, because God is somewhere, far away, But the British God

is here, just now. Allah, the very word, binds all Muslims. And the

British see their aim in their action. The Hindu's aim is an other-

worldly God-realisation, while action is in this world, and there's

no connection between God and the world of action. Christians

succeed better than Hindus in their enterprises. Christian colleges

and Christian hospitals show a better performance than Hindu

colleges or hospitals, because the Hindus have their God above in

heaven, and He is not in the hospital or the college -- "Why should

He come here to serve people? This is all no good, one day we have

to leave this, so we let the patient die, it doesn't matter. The

world is unreal, Maya." But there it is not like that. What they

think and see with their eyes is the God for them. They are

doing 'real' work in a 'real' world. We are doing what is unreal,

because the world is not real. The 'unreal' God of the 'unreal'

world cannot face the 'real' God of the 'real' world. Feelings have

been instilled into the minds of the Hindus that the world is

unreal. Who told them that the world is unreal? That also nobody

knows! Some bogey is sitting inside and telling them 'the world is

unreal'. So why should you take any interest in the events of the

world?

 

The Hindu military system was not strong, because 'why do you

want a military system?' We have our soul inside, it goes to God.

This is why India is what it is. It has a soul within and a God

above, and the soul continues and is surviving. But it fails in the

world. Does it mean that in order to succeed in God we have to fail

in the world? No; only a person who has conquered the world can

reach God. A coward cannot reach God. People run away from the world

saying that it is evil. This kind of philosophy will not work

because you thereby cut off the connection between God and yourself

and cut off the connection between God and the world, also.

 

Actually, today, the Hindus have no philosophy, and no

religion. People cry "Hindu religion, Hindu religion", really it

doesn't exist at all. It is a kind of chaos and a mess and a mass of

superstition, ultimately. We might have heard people quarrelling, --

this caste, that caste, and go on blabbering; and afterwards

somebody else comes and attacks. The third battle of Panipat took

place and the Marathas joined together and were deliberating a day

before. There were the Peshwa, Gaekwad, Holkar, and Bhonsle from

Poona, Baroda, Indore and Gwalior. Inside they were quarrelling

among themselves. And the next day Ahmed Shah Abdali made his

attack, he was on the free field and they had to face him. There was

internal schism "What do you think you are!". There was no unity

among them even one day before the battle. The other side

cried 'Allah' -- and everybody rose up into action. 'Allah is in

danger, oh!' But among Hindus, who is in danger? Nobody. And Ahmed

Shah vanquished the Marathas, and the Maratha empire ceased to exist

in its glory, the empire of Shivaji was split in different

directions. Look at the unity of purpose and the system with which

the disciplined army of the British and the Mohamedans could act

like steel and fire, and no Rajah, prince or king of India could

resist them. It was the British who achieved the impossible, --

integration of the whole country to a single unit of administration -

- India. Why did not the Hindu kings join and work this miracle, and

why had they to wait for the coming of the British?

 

Tipu Sultan had his own powerful army, but a few soldiers from

the British side ended him, because the latter force charged forth

with concentrated action while the other side was not so

disciplined. Two people among us cannot be friends, whereas they

have Allah, who brings them together, or there is the British empire

as the aim. Whether it is a Middle East man or American man or any

mleccha to the Hindus, they had all a unity of purpose.

 

You must read this book of Sri Aurobindo. His language also is

so energising. Even from a literary point of view it is an

entertainment. His writings are mighty. Mighty writings, indeed. He

was a great brain. And his understanding of Hinduism is surprisingly

wonderful. He got to the very root of it. Hindus are clinging to

their soul and losing the world as if the soul is somewhere else and

the world is outside!

 

What is forgotten is that the omnipresent consciousness which

is the soul is also in the world. When you protect the soul you have

to protect the world also. A great Saint and Sage is also a soldier,

as Lord Krishna was. No Sannyasin can equal Lord Krishna in

renunciation. No soldier can stand before him. No householder can

equal him. No Yogi can compete with him. He is a true Hindu. He

brought together all the forces of India and gave us 'Bharat'. The

first great integrator of Indian forces was Krishna. Do you call him

a householder? Do you call him a Sannyasin? Do you call him a

warrior? What do you call him? The Almighty was working through Him.

Is the Almighty a Sannyasin? Is God a householder? What do you call

him? Such impersonal force incarnated itself through this

personality of Krishna and won victory everywhere. His mere presence

was a power, people would bow down to him everywhere. Beauty,

grandeur, majesty, power, wisdom; everything was combined in

Krishna. Can India produce one person like Krishna? Quarrelsome

politicians there are; flimsy talks everywhere.

 

India is now in this condition -- total dichotomy between God

and man. There is nothing to cement the two together. One does not

know which aim one is pursuing, which side. Are you to pursue your

own self, or world, or God? Nobody knows, the whole structure

collapses in utter ignorance. The entire thing is in shambles --

this is Indian religion today. There is no education. The great

Vedas and the Upanishads cried hoarse, -- the language of

confidence. It is a surprise that such people lived in this country

and today we are having shells of people. Why is it like that, such

deterioration?

 

People say 'Kali Yuga', 'Kali Yuga', and all that -- there is

no use of talking these empty words. There is no use of saying

anything. We require today collective action. India should stand

together as one person, not as Tamil, Karnataka, Andhra and Punjab

and so on. I should say Nehru made a mistake in creating linguistic

States. Each one is now chauvinistic, each state has conflicting

ideals. 'My country, my, my, my, my', people say. During the British

regime there was no 'my', because there were Bombay Presidency,

Madras Presidency, etc. There were no linguistic States. We require

some power to make the country a single integrated force. The whole

of India should stand up, not as Tamil Nadu standing, Karnataka

standing, etc. No. 'India is standing up as one power' -- can anyone

declare thus? Is there any person in India who can bring together

the whole of India as a single force which can face the world?

 

Truth triumphs, and the truth is that God, world and

individual are one Integrated Reality. There is no preference of the

one to the other.

 

This is my little message. I do not know whether I am a

warrior or a spiritual man or what kind of man I am. (Laughter)

 

===============

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I do not completely agree with this view.Muslim invasions started

from 670 ad and went on till 1100 ad.Only after fighting for nearly

400 years they could enter india and rule delhi.Even then if you

notice only afghanistan was converted completely to an islamic

country.Why?

The majority of people in afghanistan believed in budhistic

idealogy.Let us not forget the fact that before the arrival of buddha

in India,Indians were as much barbaric and warrior class like any

other outsider.The degeneration among both the warrior class and

priestly class lead to buddhist movement.The ahimsa philosophy of

buddhism has had a major effect on the pshycological mind of indians

for centuries and even now.Currently the marxist and leftist

historians are trying to over play this attitude along with defeatist

mentality of indians for their own vested interest.What india needs

is not karna,but Arjunas for becoming a super power.

 

 

 

-- In vediculture, "vrnparker" <vrnparker> wrote:

> "Sraddhalu Ranade" <sraddhalu@a...> wrote:

> http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/disc/disc_04.html

>

> Discourses/Articles

> by

> Swami Krishnananda

> The Divine Life Society

> Sivananda Ashram, Rishikesh, India

>

> January 6, 1999

>

> A CONVERSATION

>

> [Dr. P.C. Rao, Judge on the International Tribunal of the Law

> of the Sea, Sri J.S Verma, Retired Chief Justice, Supreme Court of

> India, Chief Justice of Andhra Pradesh, and Swami Krishnananda are

> present.]

>

> Dr. P.C. Rao: Yesterday the definition you gave of a judge.

>

> Swamiji: Judge is an impersonal existence.

>

> Dr. P.C. Rao: It appealed to us greatly. Perhaps you mentioned that

> because the three of us happen to be judges. (The Chief Justice of

> India, J.S. Verma (Retd.) was also sitting.)

>

> Swamiji: The Chief Justice of India is all the national principles

> of justice compressed at a single point. It is the whole nation

> speaking, it is not Mr. So-and-so, there is no Mr. So-and-so in the

> Chief Justice. He is not a human being at all. It is the whole

> nation speaking. Now, I go beyond the nation, -- the justice of the

> Cosmos. What would be the proper thing in the light of the justice

> of the Universe? Instead of seeing with two eyes, one sees with

> millions of eyes; then there will be no partiality or even duality.

>

> 'Impersonal' means that one does not belong to any side,

> nobody is your friend and nobody is your enemy. The universe has no

> friends and enemies, because the so-called enemies are inside it

> only and the friends are also inside; so, to whom does it belong?

It

> is like electricity, -- is electricity a friend of anybody or an

> enemy of anybody? It can cook your food, heat your stove and move

> the railway train, but it can also destroy life. God is not merely

> creator Brahma and protector Vishnu but also destroyer Rudra. God

> can do anything. He creates this beautiful earth and maintains it

in

> a gorgeous manner and destroys it also by flood, ravaging

> earthquake, tempest, high waves of the sea, -- thousands dying.

> Then, what is the work of God, what are his functions? We do not

> have to give any credit to Brahma who created the world, nor praise

> Vishnu for maintaining it, nor curse Rudra for destroying

> everything. If a case goes in favour of somebody, we cannot say

that

> the Judge is a kind man because the person who won the case will

> think, -- "very kind Judge, very wonderful Judge". Suppose the

Judge

> passes a death sentence on someone, -- "horrible, horrible" will be

> the cry.

>

> Now, what is the nature of this person who is giving

acquittal

> to somebody and granting the wish of somebody and wanting to remove

> the life of somebody, also? What kind of person is he? Is he a good

> man or a bad man? He is not a man at all, the whole point is this;

> he is not a man. Is the sun a friendly being or an inimical one?

> Without the sun we cannot breathe, we cannot exist without the sun.

> But he can create sunstroke and kill someone, also. Now, why does

> the sun kill a man thus? The sun's existence itself is a protective

> function, but he never asks anyone to walk in the hot sun and get

> sunstroke. Whose mistake is it? You curse the sun because you had

> sunstroke. The Judge is a symbolic embodiment of law. There is a

> policeman who puts on one kind of dress, a Judge puts on another

> kind of dress, there is a Collector who puts on one kind of dress, -

-

> but they are not human beings but functionaries varieties in law.

> We have an inveterate habit of looking at things from a personal

> point of view. The policeman is the embodiment of a function. He is

> a function only, he is not a man, you should not call him a man, it

> is an operative force working through a particular individuality

> because the force cannot work without some medium, just as without

a

> wire, electricity cannot work. It does not jump on our head

> directly, it wants a wire connection.

>

> Swamiji: Is the country progressing?

>

> Justice Verma: That is what I would like to ask you, Swamiji.

What's

> ultimately the future. This is a great country.

>

> Swamiji: You have seen as a judiciary, everybody, all kinds of

> people, come to you seeking advice and judgment. What kind of

people

> are coming to you?

>

> Justice Verma: Very few of the right persons. That is what is very

> distressing. So, ultimately, since I believe that this is a great

> nation, and ultimately everything right should happen with men like

> you still being there to guide people. But the degeneration is so

> fast that it is not clear what is in store for the country as a

> whole.

>

> Swamiji: I don't think any trouble will come to the country; it has

> been existing since centuries, it will exist further, also. It has

> experienced travails of invasion right from the time of the Greek

> Alexander onwards; many invaders came here but they could not

uproot

> the country and make it their own.

>

> Justice Verma: Swamiji, personal aggression one can understand, but

> here the degeneration is from within. The falling of values, I

> think, in general, at every level and more so at the highest

level, -

> - so-called highest level. That is what is more troubling.

>

> Swamiji: The answer to this question you will find in a very

> interesting book written by Sri Aurobindo, 'Foundations of Indian

> Culture'. Why India is continuing inspite of all these faults that

> you have pointed out, and why India is not succeeding as it ought

to

> succeed in the comity of nations?

>

> The reason for this, as he has pointed out, very wisely, is

> the dichotomy created by the human perception of values, between

God

> and the world. No Hindu, no citizen of India can give an answer to

> the question: in what way is God connected to the world? It also

> means to say, in what way is an individual connected to the

Creator?

> Let any religious man answer this question. "God is very far away",

> people will look up as if God is sitting in the skies.

>

> People there are who say that they have renounced the world.

> What is this 'leaving'? What is the meaning? If you have property,

> you can abandon it, but do you think the world is your property?

> What kind of feeling, unnecessarily, 'I have renounced everything'.

> This is the kind of religion that we are practising. Because duniya

> is a chhodne layak cheez hai, we have no interest in it, let

> invaders come and spoil it. We shall reach God, Moksha. What does

it

> matter who tramples over the earth?

>

> Right from the Vedas onwards, throughout the history of

India,

> there was not even one person who could vanquish the Muslim

> invaders, or encounter the British forces. How did they become so

> strong? How did India become so poor and so weak? Because the

> invaders had a real God, whereas the Hindus clung to an unreal God -

-

> unreal God, because God is somewhere, far away, But the British

God

> is here, just now. Allah, the very word, binds all Muslims. And the

> British see their aim in their action. The Hindu's aim is an other-

> worldly God-realisation, while action is in this world, and there's

> no connection between God and the world of action. Christians

> succeed better than Hindus in their enterprises. Christian colleges

> and Christian hospitals show a better performance than Hindu

> colleges or hospitals, because the Hindus have their God above in

> heaven, and He is not in the hospital or the college -- "Why should

> He come here to serve people? This is all no good, one day we have

> to leave this, so we let the patient die, it doesn't matter. The

> world is unreal, Maya." But there it is not like that. What they

> think and see with their eyes is the God for them. They are

> doing 'real' work in a 'real' world. We are doing what is unreal,

> because the world is not real. The 'unreal' God of the 'unreal'

> world cannot face the 'real' God of the 'real' world. Feelings have

> been instilled into the minds of the Hindus that the world is

> unreal. Who told them that the world is unreal? That also nobody

> knows! Some bogey is sitting inside and telling them 'the world is

> unreal'. So why should you take any interest in the events of the

> world?

>

> The Hindu military system was not strong, because 'why do you

> want a military system?' We have our soul inside, it goes to God.

> This is why India is what it is. It has a soul within and a God

> above, and the soul continues and is surviving. But it fails in the

> world. Does it mean that in order to succeed in God we have to fail

> in the world? No; only a person who has conquered the world can

> reach God. A coward cannot reach God. People run away from the

world

> saying that it is evil. This kind of philosophy will not work

> because you thereby cut off the connection between God and yourself

> and cut off the connection between God and the world, also.

>

> Actually, today, the Hindus have no philosophy, and no

> religion. People cry "Hindu religion, Hindu religion", really it

> doesn't exist at all. It is a kind of chaos and a mess and a mass

of

> superstition, ultimately. We might have heard people quarrelling, --

 

> this caste, that caste, and go on blabbering; and afterwards

> somebody else comes and attacks. The third battle of Panipat took

> place and the Marathas joined together and were deliberating a day

> before. There were the Peshwa, Gaekwad, Holkar, and Bhonsle from

> Poona, Baroda, Indore and Gwalior. Inside they were quarrelling

> among themselves. And the next day Ahmed Shah Abdali made his

> attack, he was on the free field and they had to face him. There

was

> internal schism "What do you think you are!". There was no unity

> among them even one day before the battle. The other side

> cried 'Allah' -- and everybody rose up into action. 'Allah is in

> danger, oh!' But among Hindus, who is in danger? Nobody. And Ahmed

> Shah vanquished the Marathas, and the Maratha empire ceased to

exist

> in its glory, the empire of Shivaji was split in different

> directions. Look at the unity of purpose and the system with which

> the disciplined army of the British and the Mohamedans could act

> like steel and fire, and no Rajah, prince or king of India could

> resist them. It was the British who achieved the impossible, --

> integration of the whole country to a single unit of

administration -

> - India. Why did not the Hindu kings join and work this miracle,

and

> why had they to wait for the coming of the British?

>

> Tipu Sultan had his own powerful army, but a few soldiers

from

> the British side ended him, because the latter force charged forth

> with concentrated action while the other side was not so

> disciplined. Two people among us cannot be friends, whereas they

> have Allah, who brings them together, or there is the British

empire

> as the aim. Whether it is a Middle East man or American man or any

> mleccha to the Hindus, they had all a unity of purpose.

>

> You must read this book of Sri Aurobindo. His language also

is

> so energising. Even from a literary point of view it is an

> entertainment. His writings are mighty. Mighty writings, indeed. He

> was a great brain. And his understanding of Hinduism is

surprisingly

> wonderful. He got to the very root of it. Hindus are clinging to

> their soul and losing the world as if the soul is somewhere else

and

> the world is outside!

>

> What is forgotten is that the omnipresent consciousness which

> is the soul is also in the world. When you protect the soul you

have

> to protect the world also. A great Saint and Sage is also a

soldier,

> as Lord Krishna was. No Sannyasin can equal Lord Krishna in

> renunciation. No soldier can stand before him. No householder can

> equal him. No Yogi can compete with him. He is a true Hindu. He

> brought together all the forces of India and gave us 'Bharat'. The

> first great integrator of Indian forces was Krishna. Do you call

him

> a householder? Do you call him a Sannyasin? Do you call him a

> warrior? What do you call him? The Almighty was working through

Him.

> Is the Almighty a Sannyasin? Is God a householder? What do you call

> him? Such impersonal force incarnated itself through this

> personality of Krishna and won victory everywhere. His mere

presence

> was a power, people would bow down to him everywhere. Beauty,

> grandeur, majesty, power, wisdom; everything was combined in

> Krishna. Can India produce one person like Krishna? Quarrelsome

> politicians there are; flimsy talks everywhere.

>

> India is now in this condition -- total dichotomy between God

> and man. There is nothing to cement the two together. One does not

> know which aim one is pursuing, which side. Are you to pursue your

> own self, or world, or God? Nobody knows, the whole structure

> collapses in utter ignorance. The entire thing is in shambles --

> this is Indian religion today. There is no education. The great

> Vedas and the Upanishads cried hoarse, -- the language of

> confidence. It is a surprise that such people lived in this country

> and today we are having shells of people. Why is it like that, such

> deterioration?

>

> People say 'Kali Yuga', 'Kali Yuga', and all that -- there is

> no use of talking these empty words. There is no use of saying

> anything. We require today collective action. India should stand

> together as one person, not as Tamil, Karnataka, Andhra and Punjab

> and so on. I should say Nehru made a mistake in creating linguistic

> States. Each one is now chauvinistic, each state has conflicting

> ideals. 'My country, my, my, my, my', people say. During the

British

> regime there was no 'my', because there were Bombay Presidency,

> Madras Presidency, etc. There were no linguistic States. We require

> some power to make the country a single integrated force. The whole

> of India should stand up, not as Tamil Nadu standing, Karnataka

> standing, etc. No. 'India is standing up as one power' -- can

anyone

> declare thus? Is there any person in India who can bring together

> the whole of India as a single force which can face the world?

>

> Truth triumphs, and the truth is that God, world and

> individual are one Integrated Reality. There is no preference of

the

> one to the other.

>

> This is my little message. I do not know whether I am a

> warrior or a spiritual man or what kind of man I am. (Laughter)

>

> ===============

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