Prabhupada: Well, according to Vedic conception woman is never offered leadership

[Guest guest]

Conversations 750709iv.chi

 

Television Interview --

July 9, 1975, Chicago

 

Woman reporter: When you came to Chicago last week you said you were going to

tell us some of the solutions to our problems in this country. Can you tell me

what some of those solutions are?Prabhupada: Solution not only of your country

or our country, it is the solution for the whole human society. I told that as

there are different divisions in the same body, the head, the arms, the belly,

and the leg... Although the body is one, but there are different parts for

different function. Then the body is going nicely. The head is the most

important part of the body. So if the head is not in order, then, in spite of

presentation of other parts of the body, hands, leg, the body is useless. Just

like a madman. Madman, this brain is not in order. Therefore despite the

presentation of the hands, legs, and other things, it is useless. Similarly,

the human society should be divided into four classes according to quality. Not

everyone is on the same level. So for, even for material purposes there must be

four divisions: first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class, means...

The definition of the first-class, find out. This is the definition of the

first-class man.Nitai:

 

samo damas tapah saucam ksantir

arjavam eva ca jnanam vijnanam astikyam

brahma-karma svabhava-jam

 

"Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom,

knowledge, and religiousness--these are the qualities by which the brahmanas

work."Prabhupada: This is first-class man. Then second-class man?Nitai:

 

sauryam tejo dhrtir daksyam yuddhe capy

apalayanam danam isvara-bhavas ca

ksatram karma svabhava-jam

 

"Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle,

generosity, and leadership are the qualities of work for the

ksatriyas."Prabhupada: This is second-class. And then third-class?Nitai:

 

krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam vaisya-karma

svabhava-jam paricaryatmakam karma

sudrasyapi svabhava-jam

 

Prabhupada: That is fourth-class. First of all, third-class.Nitai: Third-class:

"Farming, cattle raising and business are the qualities of work for the

vaisyas,..."Prabhupada: Not cattle raising, cow protection.Nitai: Cow

protection.Prabhupada: Yes. Farming and cow protection and trade, this is meant

for the third-class division. And worker, fourth-class. These divisions must be

there. Then the society will go on very nicely. Exactly the same example, that

if the different parts of the body--the brain, the arms, the belly and the

legs--all are in order, the bodily function will go on very nicely. This is

natural.Woman reporter: Where do women fit into these four classes?Prabhupada:

That I already explained. Women's position is subordinate to man. So if the man

is first-class, the woman is first-class. If the man is second-class, the woman

is second-class. If the man is third-class, the woman is third-class. In

this... Because woman is meant for assisting man, so the woman becomes suitable

according to the man, her husband.Woman reporter: Would you say that women are

inferior to men?Prabhupada: Yes.Woman reporter: Why?Prabhupada: By

physiological condition. Just like you are. Your bodily features are different

from the man's features. You cannot deny it. So according to the bodily

features, the psychological condition and everything is there. How you can deny

it?Woman reporter: Do you think that I am inferior to you?Prabhupada: It is not

the question of inferior or superior. Different. Now you take one inferior or

superior. That is your calculation. But the bodily features are different. That

is material. But spiritually, they are all one. Materially... Just like your

bodily feature and a man's bodily feature is different. Now, so far question of

inferior, superior, that is your calculation. But we say that by nature, a woman

and man is different.Woman reporter: What does this mean as far as whether women

can do the same things that men can do, or whether women can lead

people?Prabhupada: Well, women can bear children, but the man cannot. Is it

possible to bear children? A man can become pregnant? Is it possible?Woman

reporter: No.Prabhupada: Physically... Therefore there are so many things which

is possible in man and which is not possible in woman, by nature. How you can

say that they are of the same nature?Woman reporter: I'm not saying they're the

same. What can...Prabhupada: Then if you not saying that, then they are

different in their physiological condition. So now this physiological

condition, you may calculate, "This is better, this is better." That is your

calculation. Our calculation is the man and woman are different in their

physiological condition.Woman reporter: But you say women are subordinate to

men.Prabhupada: Yes, that is also natural. Because when the husband and wife

are there or the father and daughter is there, so the daughter is subordinate

to the father and the wife is subordinate to the husband.Woman reporter: What

happens when women are not subordinate to men?Prabhupada: Then there is

disruption. There is disruption, social disruption. If the woman does not

become subordinate to man, then there is social disruption. Therefore, in the

western countries there are so many divorce cases because the woman does not

agree to become subordinate to man. That is the cause.Woman reporter: What

advice do you have to women who do not want to be subordinate to

men?Prabhupada: It is not my advice, but it is the advice of the Vedic

knowledge that woman should be chaste and faithful to man.Woman reporter: What

should we do in the United States? We're trying to make women equal with

men.Prabhupada: I am not trying. You are already not equal with the man because

in so many respects, your functions are different and man's functions are

different. Why do you say artificially they are equal? As I told you that the

husband and wife--the wife has to become pregnant, not the husband. How you can

change this, both the husband and wife will be pregnant? Is it possible? Is it

possible?Woman reporter: No, it is not.Prabhupada: Then by nature one has to

function differently from the other.Woman reporter: But why does this

mean...?Prabhupada: So how you can change?Woman reporter: Why does this mean

that women have to be subordinate?Prabhupada: Yes.Woman reporter: Just because

they bear children and men can't?Prabhupada: Well, by nature... No, as soon as

you get children, you require support from the husband. Otherwise you are in

difficulty.Woman reporter: Many women have children and have no support from

husbands. They have no husband.Prabhupada: Then they have to take support from

others. You cannot deny that. The government is giving you support. But the

government is embarrassed. If the husband supports the wife and children, the

government is relieved of so much welfare contribution. So that is a

problem.Woman reporter: What happens when women support men?Prabhupada: First

of all try to understand that you depend. The... After man and woman unite,

there is children, and the man goes away, and you are embarrassed. The woman is

embarrassed. Why? Why this is, is made possible? A man and woman unites, and the

woman becomes pregnant, and the husband goes away. Then the poor woman is

embarrassed with the child. She has to beg from the government. So do you think

it is very nice thing? The Vedic idea is that woman should be married to a man

and the man should take charge of the woman and the children independently so

that they do not become a burden to the government or to the public.Woman

reporter: Do you think the social unrest...Prabhupada: I am thinking like this.

You give me the answer. Simply you go on questioning. I question you, do you

think this burden to the government or the public is good?Woman reporter: I

don't understand what you're saying.Nitai: Do you think that the burden caused

when the husband goes away from the wife, that burden to the government is

good?Woman reporter: No.Prabhupada: So that has happened. Because the woman

does not agree to be subordinate--she wants equal freedom--so the husband goes

away and the woman is embarrassed with the children. And it becomes a burden to

the government.Woman reporter: Is there anything wrong when the woman

works?Prabhupada: There are so many things wrong. But first thing is the wife,

the woman, the wife of somebody, and the child born by somebody, they should

become burden to the government or to the public. First of all answer this

thing. Why she should become burden to the government? What is your answer? Do

you think, from social point of view, this position of woman and the fatherless

children are very nice thing? No.Woman reporter: What I'm trying to say is

that... This may happen to some women. I'm talking about women who are

not...Prabhupada: Not... These are the general cases. You cannot say, "some." I

see in America mostly the woman...Woman reporter: Oh, then what you're saying is

not all women should be subordinate to all men.Prabhupada: No, man should be

subordinate to the man, woman, so that the man can take charge of the woman.

Then that woman is not a problem to the public.Woman reporter: Is it true for

all woman and all men?Prabhupada: Yes, that is the nature. You take even in the

dogs. The dogs they also take care of their children. The tigers, they take care

of the children. So in the human society, if the woman is made pregnant and the

man goes away and she is embarrassed, she has to beg from the government, that

is not a very good situation.Woman reporter: What about women who do not have

children?Prabhupada: Well, that is also another unnatural thing. Sometimes they

use contraceptives. They kill children, abortion. That is also not very good.

These are all sinful activities. These are sinful activities, to kill child in

the womb. And take shelter of abortion. These are all sinful activities. One

has to suffer for that.Woman reporter: Is the social unrest in this country

caused because...Prabhupada: Because of these things. They do not know

that.Woman reporter: And if women were subordinate to men, it would solve all

of our problems?Prabhupada: Yes. Man wants that woman should be subordinate,

faithful to him. Then he is ready to take charge. The man's mentality, woman's

mentality different. So if the woman agrees to remain faithful and subordinate

to man, then the family life will be peaceful.Woman reporter: Thank you. It's

late.TV Cameraman: Any more questions?Woman reporter: Yes. I'll ask the same

questions again, do not answer.Prabhupada: Hmm?Nitai: She's going to ask the

same questions, but no need to answer. They're just going to photograph her.

This is for on TV they will show her asking the questions. (break)Woman

reporter: What will you do in Philadelphia?Prabhupada: The same thing. I have

got my temple there. I stay there, and I teach people according to my

philosophy.Woman reporter: Is Philadelphia your last stop in...Prabhupada: No,

no, I travel all over United States. Then I will go to Europe. Then I will go

to Africa. I have got my touring program for 4 months. (break)Woman reporter:

There's one more question I'm going to ask. Is that tea? Is that tea that

you're drinking?Prabhupada: No, we don't drink tea. We don't drink tea, don't

drink liquor. We don't smoke. This is our process, no illicit sex, no meat

eating, no intoxication, no gambling. Unless one is married, there is no sex.

And unless one is going to beget child, there is no sex. Not for pleasure. This

is our regulative principle.Woman reporter: You have different schools for men

and women, is that correct?Prabhupada: Yes. Man is regulated to become a

first-class man, and woman is regulated to become very chaste and faithful

wife.Woman reporter: There is one more question.Prabhupada: Then the life will

be very successful. And marriage, compulsory. Marriage, compulsory.Woman

reporter: Everyone should marry?Prabhupada: Yes. Every woman, at least, should

be married. Therefore, according to Vedic conception, polygamy is allowed.Woman

reporter: Is allowed?Prabhupada: Yes. Because every woman must be married. But

every man may not be married. Therefore man has to accept more than one

wife.Woman reporter: There is one question I have for you. You say that a

woman's brain is smaller than a man's.Prabhupada: Woman?Nitai: Woman's brain is

smaller than a man's brain.Prabhupada: Yes, that is a fact. In the history there

is no woman who is a big philosopher, a big mathematician, big scientist, big

educationist. We don't find. They were all men.Woman reporter: What about women

who are leaders of countries such as your own country?Prabhupada: Well,

according to Vedic conception woman is never offered leadership. But experience

has shown that woman's leadership has not been successful.Woman reporter: Do you

think Mrs. Gandhi's leadership has not been successful?Prabhupada: Well, there

is already trouble. There are many big, big men, they do not agree with her and

she has taken emergency steps. So on the whole, the country is in trouble.Woman

reporter: What about Mrs. Meir, president of Israel?Prabhupada: I do not say of

any particular woman, but according to Vedic civilization, we have never seen in

the history that woman has become a leader.Woman reporter: Women have been

leaders.Prabhupada: They were not selected. The leader--formerly it was

monarchy--the monarchs were selected by the advisory board of the first-class

men. So they never selected any woman to become the leader of the society.Woman

reporter: What about women who are elected by the people?Prabhupada: Well,

people election... Just like you elected Nixon and then you wanted him to come

down. So this kind of election has no value. Sometimes you elect and sometimes

you pull down. So what is the value of this election?Woman reporter: So a

leader should not be elected.Prabhupada: Elected, but not by this general

public. They have no intelligence. They sometimes elect a wrong man, and again

they try to drag him down. So what is the use of such election? Because that

election is not sober, not mature. If the election was mature and sober, then

there was no need of dragging him down again.Woman reporter: We have talked to

scientists who say that the size of the brain has nothing to do with

intelligence. Do you believe that?Prabhupada: I think that the scientists do

not think like that. They keep the brain of a particular scientist to study.

They keep the heart of a particular noble man. Why they try to study the heart

and the brain if there is no difference?Nitai: Sometimes they keep the brain of

a great scientist to study because they think that he is so intelligent, there

must be something we can learn from studying the brain. So if they are thinking

like that, then there also must be a difference between a woman's brain and a

man's brain.Woman reporter: What they say is that there is difference, but it

has nothing to do with the size.Nitai: Then why do they keep great scientists'

brain to study?Woman reporter: They keep many people's brains to study.Nitai:

Especially great scientists, that they want to see what has made this man so

intelligent.Woman reporter: That's not necessarily true.Prabhupada: Then why

they study the brain? What is the purpose of studying brain unless there is

difference? You study different brains. Unless you feel that there is

difference between this brain and that brain, why do you study. What is the

meaning of study?Woman reporter: To find differences among men. It's not

necessarily differences between men and woman.Prabhupada: I don't say man or

woman. But I say you study different brains--why? Unless you think there is

some difference?Woman reporter: There is difference.Prabhupada: Yes. So if

there is difference, then what is the harm if there is difference between man

and woman's brain?Woman reporter: They say there isn't.Prabhupada: They say,

but the fact we have to study. As soon as you study the construction of

different brain, then you must know that there is difference, different

activities.Woman reporter: In other words, you do not believe this, what they

say.Prabhupada: Then why do you study different brain?Woman reporter: I don't

study them. I'm just telling you what the scientists say.Prabhupada: So

scientists, the psychologist... As I was a student of psychology and our

professor, a big man, Dr. W. S. Urquhart, he said that "By studying the brains

of man and woman, we have found the highest brain substance found in man,

sixty-four ounce by weight." You may deny. This is the statement of a big

psychologist. You can shake your head, but this is the scientific words by big

psychologist. You can note down his name, Dr. W.S. Urquhart, professor of

psychology in the Scottish Churches College in 1918-20.Woman reporter: Oh,

dear, no wonder. 1918-1920, that means... O.K. I see now what you're thinking

about. That was many, many years ago.Prabhupada: So can you give any proof

since then that the woman's... In 1920... She does not take it?Nitai: She does

not take it. Somehow they think that the brain is no longer small. If it was

small, then, it is not small today.Prabhupada: But where is the proof...Woman

reporter: You do not believe that there has been advancement of science since

1920?Nitai: Well, if the brain has been ascertained as being half the size then

why should it change by now? Should it change?Woman reporter: Well, do you think

that the Romans weren't as tall as men are today?Nitai: No, but the... But then,

within fifty years there is not going to be any change in the brain.Woman

reporter: Not in the 1900's. Why do you use the technology that you use? You

didn't have cars in those days, this television. Things have changed since

1920.Prabhupada: So what change has become? Can you give any evidence that

woman is more powerful in brain than the man during these years? Can you give

any evidence?Woman reporter: No, what I'm saying is that...Prabhupada: Now, can

you give any evidence that woman has become more powerful than the man during

these fifty years?Woman reporter: Yes.Prabhupada: What is that? Give me some

tacit example.Woman reporter: That she and I wouldn't be here if women weren't

more powerful than they were fifty years ago.Harikesa: Now they are talking

louder. (laughter)Woman reporter: Than you. Thank you. (woman leaves)Harikesa:

The scientists have the theory that the brain, the intelligence is measured by

creases in the brain, creases, not by size.Prabhupada: Not size, but what is

the proof that the brain of woman has increased? Where is the proof?Harikesa:

They think because the ego has increased, the brain has also

increased.Prabhupada: Oh, that's nice. (laughter) That's nice. (laughing) So to

become angry means defeat. If two persons are in argument the man, the one

party, he becomes angry, that means he is defeated. Why one should become

angry? It is the argument, logic. They should continue. And to become angry and

to go away, that means defeat.Harikesa: They become upset because they cannot

dominate you.Prabhupada: No, it is not the question of domination; it is the

question of logic. If you do not agree to logic, then no argument can make

progress.Uttamasloka: Srila Prabhupada, if one does not agree to logic, does

that mean that they are under the influence of tamo-guna?Prabhupada: That means

he is animal.Guest: Under the influence of who?Uttamasloka: Tamo-guna.Harikesa:

It's the mode of ignorance.Guest: Who?Harikesa: The mode of

ignorance.Prabhupada: Logic is meant for learned man, and uneducated man, they

want to force, "Yes, you must do it." With point of revolver, "You must do it."

And educated man, they argue on logic. That is the difference. (break) ...queens

of Krsna, they are giving statement as maidservant of Krsna. You have read that

portion? When there was talk between Kunti and queens of Krsna, the queens

presented themself as maidservant of Krsna.Harikesa: The men have become the

servants of the women.Prabhupada: Hmm?Harikesa: Women's liberation has become

successful because man is now the servant of woman.Prabhupada: It is not

successful. That I was pointing out. It has caused the disaster because the

whole women become dependent on the welfare gift of the government, and the

government has to raise tax heavily for this purpose. The tax is given by the

general public, but it is going for one individual person, and I have heard

that government is embarrassed. They are now making enquiry about the welfare

gifts.Nitai: There's many scandals there.Prabhupada: There are now so many

scandals. So these are the problems. Why? The man leaves the woman uncared

for.Brahmananda: One statistic has come that there are more people in this

country receiving welfare than there are those who are employed in jobs outside

of government. That means the government is actually spending for more people

than... (break)Prabhupada: Is not that a problem to the government?Nitai: A

huge problem.Harikesa: Taxes are very high. Everyone is complaining about taxes

being too high.Prabhupada: Problem is already there and if they think it is not

problem, then what can be said? By nature's way, if the husband takes care of

the wife and children, this problem is solved immediately. But the man takes

advantage. He goes away after making the woman pregnant. And the woman is

embarrassed and the government is embarrassed.Harikesa: And the child grows up

to be a criminal.Prabhupada: Yes. Hippies. That is another problem. So they are

not far-seeing. The immediate benefit they want. What will be the effect? That

is animal civilization. Animal cannot see what will be the future. Therefore we

have to take advice from Krsna. One who knows past, present, and future.

Everything is there. We are spreading this knowledge, that "Take your council

from Krsna. Then you'll be happy." That is our program.Satsvarupa: Srila

Prabhupada, if we speak these things on television and the newspapers and

people become angry, if all the people become angry like she does, is it still

good propaganda for us?Prabhupada: No, then we chant Hare Krsna. We don't make

disturbance. But in the Bhagavad-gita everything is discussed, this

varna-sankara and the first-class man, second-class man. If we have to push on

Krsna consciousness movement, then we have to discuss. But if they do not like,

better chant Hare Krsna and don't discuss anything. But these things are

discussed. If you are not agreeable to hear from Bhagavad-gita, then let us

chant together Hare Krsna. That's all. But these things are discussed in the

Bhagavad-gita about varna-sankara. If the population, varna-sankara, is

increased, then it becomes hell. So if you want to increase the hellish person,

then don't discuss. But if you think it is a problem, then discuss.Satsvarupa:

As a brahmana, we have to be truthful. When in Hong Kong they asked you what

you thought of Guru Maharaji, you said you could not help yourself.Prabhupada:

Yes. I said that he is a great cheat. What can I say? And it has been proved

now. (laughter) I said in my book, Easy Journey to Other..., that this moon

excursion is childish, and it has been proved now. Now they don't talk about

the moon excursion because they are failure. So ten years ago or more than

that, I said that it is only childish. (end)