Guest guest Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Sanjeev Ji Hare Krishna! >April 13. A person may, however, worship the lord in idols till such time as he comes to realize that >the Lord resides in all the beings as also in his own heart. (III-29-26) This diary you mention is based on mental speculation and therefore not authorised needs to be discarded. Please understand the following points: 1) Idol is NOT worshipped according to Vedic culture. The form of Lord Krsna worshipped in the temple is called DEITY not idol. Idol is mental speculation so IMAGINED and worshipped. Deity of the Lord is AUTHORISED by Guru, sastra and sadhus is sanctioned: Idol is NOT sanctioned. We who follow the vedic culture worship Lord Krishna's manifestation in the DEITY form it is insulting to treat it as idol worship. 2)The worship of deity manifestation does NOT stop. The very idea as above diary suggests is foolishness. Here are references from A C Bhaktivedanata Swami Prabhupada the current **bonafide** diksa and siksa guru acarya of ISKCON: 720905S2.NV Lectures So that is taught, sa vai pumsam paro dharmah yato bhaktir adhoksaje. Adhoksaje, this very word is used because God cannot be seen at the present moment with our material eyes. God cannot be touched with our material hand. Therefore his name is Adhoksaja. Adhah krta aksaja jnanam yatra, with our material eyes, material hands, material senses, we cannot understand what is God. Atah sri-krsna-namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaih. (aside:) Don't make sound. Atah sri-krsna-namadi, God's name, God's form, God's quality, God's pastime, God's paraphernalia, and so many things, na bhaved grahyam indriyaih. Indriya means senses. Our present senses are blunt, imperfect. They are defective with so many faults. Everyone can understand that I am very much proud of my eyes, I want to see God, but I cannot see my eyelid. When I block my eyes, I cannot see what is this little fragment of the skin, and still I am proud, I want to see God. Just see. You have to qualify yourself, then you can see God. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu, when (He) entered the Jagannatha Temple, He immediately fainted, "Oh, here is My Lord." And other person says, "What is this nonsense. A wooden, not even very beautiful form, and He is..." So because he hasn't got eyes. One who has got eyes to see God, he does not see anything except God. Premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti. You have to anoint your eyes with love of God, then you will see that God is present everywhere. God is present in the tree, God is present in the animal, God is present in you, God is represent in your family, in your You cannot say Actually that is the fact. 720620SB.LA Lectures Caitanya Mahaprabhu's secretary, Svarupa Damodara, he advised one brahmana. One brahmana wrote something about Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. There were many poets and writers used to come and visit Caitanya Mahaprabhu when He was at Jagannatha Puri, and they would present some writings, but these writings would not be presented before Caitanya Mahaprabhu unless it was sanctioned by His secretary Svarupa Damodara. That was the system. So one brahmana, he wrote one poetry that... The purport of the poetry was that "Jagannatha is Krsna. But He cannot move. He's wooden Krsna. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu is also Krsna, but He is moving Krsna." That means he distinguished between Jagannatha and Caitanya Mahaprabhu. So this is not siddhanta. This is not conclusion of the sastra. Sastra conclusion is: the Deity and Krsna, the same. There is no difference. We have many times explained this. Deity, the worshipful Deity in the temple, is not different from Krsna. So Svarupa Damodara did not approve of the poetry to be presented to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. At that time, he chastised him that "You do not know the conclusion, and you dare to write some poetry. Don't do this." And he said, bhagavata para giya bhagavata-sthane:(?) "If you want to understand Srimad-Bhagavatam, then you go and study Srimad-Bhagavatam from the pure devotee. Then you'll understand. 720305sb.cal Lectures Although the atheist class of men may think that they are engaged in idol worship, it is not idol. Those who are atheist, they may see idol, stone. But those who are devotees, they see saksad brajendranandana hari. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu, when He entered the Jagannatha temple, as soon as He saw Jagannatha, immediately fainted, "Oh, my Lord, here You are." So it is a question of vision. Somebody is going to Jagannatha temple, he is seeing a wooden carved statue, that's all. And he is surprised, "Why for this wooden carved statue so many people are coming?" Because they are not devotee, they cannot understand. But one devotee, thousands and millions of devotees are going every year. Are they going to worship an idol? So this is the difference between the devotee and the nondevotee. A devotee knows that everything belongs to Krsna and everything is the manifestation of Krsna's energy. Therefore, they want to employ everything to the service of the Lord, and they remain always blissful, transcendental. Thank you very much. Hare Krsna. (break) 770127r2.pur ConversationsPrabhupada: No, no, that is actually happened. The so-called idol, He went to be witness. He came from Vrndavana to Cuttack. So "idol worship" is they say. But devotee... Just like people are coming by thousands to see Jagannatha. Do they come to see idol? Wooden Jagannatha? They come to see real Jagannatha, Bhagavan Krsna. Otherwise why they will spend so much money and take so much trouble and come here? The atheists may say, "How foolish they are. They are coming here to see a wooden figure and spending so much money." That is the statement of the atheist. But a devotee comes to see--"Krsna is here." Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu saw--immediately fainted. So there are two visions. Therefore it is forbidden. Arcye visnau sila-dhir gurusu nara-matir vaisnave jati-buddhih. So the atheist class, they see, "Here is a wooden... Oh, what is the Jagannatha made of? Wood or stone?" They're seeing wood and stone. Similarly, Vaisnavas also they're seeing, "a American,European." They are blind. They have no capacity to... Therefore sastra says, "Don't think like that, naraki. If you think like that, then you become hellish." Because he has no vision, he's warned only, that "Don't do this. It is very dangerous." Arcye visnau sila-dhir gurusu nara-matir vaisnave jati-buddhih. "Don't do it." Because he cannot see as it is, he has not elevation, but he is warned, "Don't think like that." Kanistha-adhikari, he has no such vision. Therefore he's warned, "Do not do this." Just like a child. He does not know that to touch fire is dangerous. He's warned, "Do not do it. It will be..." So similarly, this is warning, "Don't do this." Therefore sastra is there. Yah sastra-vidhim utsrjya vartate: "Without sastra, if one does anything," na sa siddhim avapno..., "he'll never be perfect." So sastra-vidhi we have to follow. Then we come to perfection.SB 5.17.14 P The Descent of the River Ganges In this connection, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura informs us that the demigods worship the Supreme Lord in His various Deity forms (arca-vigraha) because except in the spiritual world, the Supreme Personality of Godhead cannot be directly worshiped in person. In the material world, the Lord is always worshiped as the arca-vigraha, or Deity in the temple. There is no difference between the arca-vigraha and the original person, and therefore those who are engaged in worshiping the Deity in the temple in full opulence, even on this planet, should be understood to be directly in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead without a doubt. As enjoined in the sastras, arcye visnau sila-dhir gurusu nara-matih: "No one should treat the Deity in the temple as stone or metal. nor should one think that the spiritual master is an ordinary human being." One should strictly follow this sastric injunction and worship the Deity, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, without offenses. The spiritual master is the direct representative of the Lord, and no one should consider him an ordinary human being. By avoiding offenses against the Deity and the spiritual master, one can advance in spiritual life, or Krsna consciousness. SB 8.3.2 P Gajendra' s Prayers of Surrender In this verse the words etac cid-atmakam are very important. The material body certainly consists only of material elements, but when one awakens to Krsna conscious understanding, the body is no longer material but spiritual. The material body is meant for sense enjoyment, whereas the spiritual body engages in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. Therefore, a devotee who engages in the service of the Supreme Lord and who constantly thinks of Him should never be considered to have a material body. It is therefore enjoined, gurusu nara-matih: one should stop thinking of the spiritual master as an ordinary human being with a material body. Arcye visnau sila-dhih: everyone knows that the Deity in the temple is made of stone, but to think that the Deity is merely stone is an offense. Similarly, to think that the body of the spiritual master consists of material ingredients is offensive. Atheists think that devotees foolishly worship a stone statue as God and an ordinary man as the guru. The fact is, however, that by the grace of Krsna's omnipotence, the so-called stone statue of the Deity is directly the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and the body of the spiritual master is directly spiritual. A pure devotee who is engaged in unalloyed devotional service should be understood to be situated on the transcendental platform (sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate). Let us therefore offer our obeisances unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, by whose mercy so-called material things also become spiritual when they are engaged in spiritual activity.SB 10.3.46 P The Birth of Lord Krsna Actually, the Lord does not give up His body, which is eternal, but as He can change His body from the form of Visnu to that of an ordinary human child, He can change His body to any form He likes. This does not mean that He gives up His body. By spiritual energy, the Lord can appear in a body made of wood or stone. He can change His body into anything because everything is His energy (parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate). As clearly said in Bhagavad-gita (7.4), bhinna prakrtir astadha: the material elements are separated energies of the Supreme Lord. If He transforms Himself into the arca-murti, the worshipable Deity, which we see as stone or wood, He is still Krsna. Therefore the sastra warns, arcye visnau sila-dhir gurusu nara-matih. One who thinks that the worshipable Deity in the temple is made of wood or stone, one who sees a Vaisnava guru as an ordinary human being, or one who materially conceives of a Vaisnava as belonging to a particular caste is naraki, a resident of hell. The Supreme Personality of Godhead can appear before us in many forms, as he likes, but we must know the true facts: janma karma ca me divyam evam yo vetti tattvatah (Bg. 4.9). By following the instructions of sadhu, guru and sastra--the saintly persons, the spiritual master and the authoritative scriptures--one can understand Krsna, and then one makes his life successful by returning home, back to Godhead. RV 3 Knowledge of Krsna' s Energies In this regard, there is a story of Narada Muni, who was once asked by a brahmana: "Oh, you are going to meet the Lord? Will you please ask Him when I'm going to get my salvation?" "All right," Narada agreed. "I shall ask Him." As Narada proceeded, he met a cobbler who was sitting under a tree mending shoes, and the cobbler similarly asked Narada, "Oh, you are going to see God? Will you please inquire of Him when my salvation will come?" When Narada Muni went to the Vaikuntha planets, he fulfilled their request and asked Narayana (God) about the salvation of the brahmana and the cobbler, and Narayana replied, "After leaving this body, the cobbler shall come here to me." "What about the brahmana?" Narada asked. "He will have to remain there for a number of births. I do not know when he is coming." Narada Muni was astonished, and he finally said, "I can't understand the mystery of this." "That you will see," Narayana said. "When they ask you what I am doing in My abode, tell them that I am threading the eye of a needle with an elephant." When Narada returned to earth and approached the brahmana, the brahmana said, "Oh, you have seen the Lord? What was He doing?" "He was threading an elephant through the eye of a needle," Narada answered. "I don't believe such nonsense," the brahmana replied. Narada could immediately understand that the man had no faith and that he was simply a reader of books. Narada then left and went on to the cobbler, who asked him, "Oh, you have seen the Lord? Tell me, what was He doing?" "He was threading an elephant through the eye of a needle," Narada replied. The cobbler began to weep, "Oh, my Lord is so wonderful, He can do anything." "Do you really believe that the Lord can push an elephant through the hole of a needle?" Narada asked. "Why not?" the cobbler said, "Of course I believe it." "How is that?" "You can see that I am sitting under this banyan tree," the cobbler answered, "and you can see that so many fruits are falling daily, and in each seed there is a banyan tree like this one. If, within a small seed there can be a big tree like this, is it difficult to accept that the Lord is pushing an elephant through the eye of a needle?" So this is called faith. It is not a question of blindly believing. There is reason behind the belief. If Krsna can put a large tree within so many little seeds, is it so astounding that He is keeping all the planetary systems floating in space through His energy? Although scientists may think that the planets are being held in space simply by nature alone, behind nature there is the Supreme Lord. Nature is acting under His guidance. As Sri Krsna states: mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram hetunanena kaunteya jagad viparivartate "This material nature is working under My direction, O son of Kunti, and is producing all moving and unmoving beings. By its rule this manifestation is being created and annihilated again and again." (Bg. 9.10) Mayadhyaksena means "under My supervision." Material nature cannot act so wonderfully unless the Lord's hand is behind it. We cannot give any example of material things automatically working. Matter is inert, and without the spiritual touch there is no possibility of its acting. Matter cannot act independently or automatically. Machines may be very wonderfully constructed, but unless a man touches that machine, it cannot work. And what is that man? He is a spiritual spark. Without spiritual touch, nothing can move; therefore everything is resting on Krsna's impersonal energy. Krsna's energy is impersonal, but He is a person. We often hear of persons performing wonderful actions, yet despite their energetic accomplishments, they still remain persons. If this is possible for human beings, why isn't it possible for the Supreme Lord? We are all persons, but we are all dependent upon Krsna, the Supreme Person. We have often seen pictures of Atlas, a stout man bearing a large planet on his shoulders and struggling very hard to hold it up. We may think that because Krsna is maintaining the universe, He is struggling under its burden like Atlas. But this is not the case. na ca mat-sthani bhutani pasya me yogam aisvaram bhuta-bhrn na ca bhuta-stho mamatma bhuta-bhavanah "And yet everything that is created does not rest in Me. Behold My mystic opulence. Although I am the maintainer of all living entities and although I am everywhere, still My Self is the very source of creation." (Bg. 9.5) Although all beings in the universe are resting in Krsna's energy, still they are not in Him. Krsna is maintaining all living entities, and His energy is all-pervading, yet He is elsewhere. This is Krsna's inconceivable mystic power. He is everywhere, yet He is aloof from everything. We can perceive his energy, but we cannot see Him because He cannot be seen with material eyes. However, when we develop our spiritual qualities, we sanctify our senses so that even within this energy we can see Him. Electricity, for instance, is everywhere, and an electrician is capable of utilizing it. Similarly, the energy of the Supreme Lord is everywhere, and when we become transcendentally situated, we can see God eye to eye everywhere. That spiritualization of the senses is possible through devotional service and love of God. The Lord is all-pervading all over the universe and is within the soul, the heart, water, air--everywhere. Thus if we make an image of God in anything--clay, stone, wood or whatever--it should not be considered to be just a doll. That also is God. If we have sufficient devotion, the image will also speak to us. God is everywhere impersonally (maya tatam idam sarvam), but if we make His personal form from anything, or if we create an image of God within ourselves, He will be present personally for us. In the sastras, there are eight kinds of images recommended, and any kind of image can be worshiped because God is everywhere. One may protest and ask, "Why should God be worshiped in images and not in His original spiritual form?" The answer is that we cannot see God immediately in His spiritual form. With our material eyes we can only see stone, earth, wood--something tangible. Therefore Krsna comes as arca-vigraha, a form conveniently presented by the Supreme Lord in order for us to see Him. The result is that if we concentrate upon the image and make offerings with love and devotion, Krsna will respond through the image. There are many instances of this happening. In India, there is one temple called Saksi-Gopala (Krsna is often called Gopala). The Gopala murti or statue was at one time located in a temple in Vrndavana. Once two brahmanas, one old and one young, went to visit Vrndavana on a pilgrimage. It was a long trip, and in those days there were no railways, so travelers underwent many hardships. The old man was much obliged to the youth for helping him on the journey, and upon arriving in Vrndavana, he said to him: "My dear boy, you have rendered me so much service, and I am much obliged to you. I would like very much to return that service and give you some reward." "My dear sir," the youth said, "you are an old man just like my father. It is my duty to serve you. I don't require any reward." "No, I'm obliged to you, and I must reward you," the old man insisted. He then promised to give the young man his young daughter in marriage. The old man was a very rich man, and the youth, although a learned brahmana, was very poor. Considering this, the youth said, "Don't promise this, for your family will never agree. I am such a poor man, and you are aristocratic, so this marriage will not take place. Don't promise this way before the Deity." The conversation was taking place in the temple before the Deity of Gopala Krsna, and the young man was anxious not to offend the Deity. However, despite the youth's pleas, the old man insisted on the marriage. After staying in Vrndavana for some time, they finally returned home, and the old man informed his eldest son that his young sister was to be married to the poor brahmana youth. The eldest son became very angry. "Oh, how have you selected that pauper as husband for my sister? This cannot be." The old man's wife also came to him and said, "If you marry our daughter to that boy, I shall commit suicide." The old man was thus perplexed. After some time, the brahmana youth became very anxious. "He has promised to marry his daughter to me, and he made that promise before the Deity. Now he is not coming to fulfill it." He then went to see the old man to remind him of his promise. "You promised before Lord Krsna," the youth said, "and you are not fulfilling that promise. How is that?" The old man was silent. He began praying to Krsna, for he was perplexed. He didn't want to marry his daughter to the youth and cause such great trouble within his family. In the meantime the elder son came out and began to accuse the brahmana youth. "You have plundered my father in the place of pilgrimage. You gave him some intoxicant and took all his money, and now you are saying that he has promised to offer you my youngest sister. You rascal!" In this way there was much noise, and people began to gather. The youth could understand that the old man was still agreeable but that the family was making it difficult for him. People began to gather about because of the noise which the elder son was raising, and the brahmana youth began to exclaim to them that the old man made this promise before the Deities but that he could not fulfill it because the family was objecting. The eldest son, who was an atheist, suddenly interrupted the youth and said, "You say that the Lord was witnessing. Well, if He comes and bears witness to this promise of my father's, you can have my sister in marriage." The youth replied, "Yes, I shall ask Krsna to come as a witness." He was confident that God would come. An agreement was then made before everyone that the girl would be given in marriage if Krsna came from Vrndavana as a witness to the old man's promise. The brahmana youth returned to Vrndavana and began to pray to Gopala Krsna. "Dear Lord, You must come with me." He was such a staunch devotee that he spoke to Krsna just as one would speak to a friend. He was not thinking that the Gopala was a mere statue or image, but he considered Him to be God Himself. Suddenly the Deity spoke to him: "How do you think that I can go with you? I am a statue. I can't go anywhere." "Well, if a statue can speak, he can also walk," the boy replied. "All right then," the Deity said finally. "I shall go with you, but on one condition. In no case shall you look back to see Me. I will follow you, and you will know that I am following by the jingle of My leg bangles." The youth agreed, and in this way they left Vrndavana to go to the other town. When the trip was nearly over, just as they were about to enter his home village, the youth could no longer hear the sound of the bangles, and he began to fear. "Oh, where is Krsna?" Unable to contain himself any longer, he looked back. He saw the statue standing still. Because he looked back, it would go no further. He immediately ran into the town and told the people to come out and see Krsna who had come as a witness. Everyone was astounded that such a large statue had come from such a distance, and they built a temple on the spot in honor of the Deity, and today people are still worshiping Saksi-Gopala, the Lord as a witness. We should therefore conclude that because God is everywhere, He is also in His statue, in the image made of Him. If Krsna is everywhere, as even the impersonalists admit, then why isn't He in His image? Whether an image or statue speaks to us or not is dependent on the degree of our devotion. But if we choose to see the image merely as a piece of wood or stone, Krsna will always remain wood or stone for us. Krsna is everywhere, but as we advance in spiritual consciousness we can begin to see Him as He is. If we put a letter into a mailbox, it will go to its destination because the mailbox is authorized. Similarly, if we worship an authorized image of God, our faith will have some effect. If we are prepared to follow the various rules and regulations--that is to say, if we become qualified--it is possible to see God anywhere and everywhere. When a devotee is present, Krsna, by His omnipresent energies, will manifest Himself anywhere and everywhere, but when His devotee is not there, He will not do this. There are many instances of this. Prahlada Maharaja saw Krsna in a pillar. There are many other examples. Krsna is there; all that is required is our qualification to see Him. Krsna Himself gives an example of His omnipresence in this way: yathakasa sthito nityam vayuh sarvatra-go mahan tatha sarvani bhutani mat-sthanity upadharaya "As the mighty wind, blowing everywhere, always rests in ethereal space, know that in the same manner all beings rest in Me." (Bg. 9.6) Everyone knows that the wind blows within space, and on earth it is blowing everywhere. There is no place where there is no air or wind. If we wish to drive out air, we have to create a vacuum artificially by some machine. Just as the air is blowing everywhere in space, so everything is existing within Krsna. If this is the case, when the material creation is dissolved, where does it go? sarva-bhutani kaunteya prakrtim yanti mamikam kalpa-ksaye punas tani kalpadau visrjamy aham "O son of Kunti, at the end of the millennium every material manifestation enters into My nature, and at the beginning of another millennium, by My potency I again create." (Bg. 9.7) Krsna sets His nature (prakrti) into motion, as one may wind up a clock, and when nature unwinds, it is absorbed into the Lord. The spiritual creation, however, is not like this, for it is permanent. In the material creation everything is temporary. Just as our bodies are developing due to the spiritual spark that is within, the whole creation is coming into being, developing and passing out of being, due to the spirit of the Lord which is within it. Just as our spirit is present within the body, the Lord is present within the universe as Paramatma. Due to the presence of Ksirodakasayi Visnu, the material creation exists, just as due to our presence our bodies are existing. Sometimes Krsna manifests the material creation, and sometimes He does not. In all cases, its existence is due to His presence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2003 Report Share Posted December 18, 2003 Namaskar Mitra, The Bhagavatam Diary - http://www.esamskriti.com/html/new_inside.asp?cat_name=qanda&cid=1002&sid=164 Shrimad Bhagavata, one of the Purana books, consists of about eighteen thousand verses which are assigned to twelve books or Skandas. Apart from its superb poetry and the very wide range of its devotional teachings, the reason for its wide and ever-expanding appeal is its elaborate exposition of the life and message of Sri Krishna. Another important aspect of the Bhagavata is that it mentions a large number of philosophical viewpoints such as non-dualism, realistic theism, dualism etc. Its effort is towards the synthesis of all different schools and not for positing opposition between the different philosophies. The diary contains a verse for each day. The diary is arranged month/day wise on esamskriti. You can either dowload it or to buy one for Rs 50/ please email Shyama : himatsingka (AT) auroville (DOT) org.in, or call her at 91 0413 2331962 / 2336672. Here are select verses from the diary - Jan10/11. Inflicting a death punishment on a ruthless murderer is in his own interests as otherwise he would continue to sin more and more leading to his utter downfall. (Krishna on Capital punishment). (I-7-37). March 4. The mind, if turned towards the objects of the world, leads to bondage. If it gets attached to God it will lead to liberation. So mind is the steering wheel which can be turned towards either bondage or liberation. (Kapila’s instructions). (III-25-15). April 13. A person may, however, worship the lord in idols till such time as he comes to realize that the Lord resides in all the beings as also in his own heart. (III-29-26) April 15. Superior are those who have mastered the scriptures with meaning. Still superior are those who perform their duties well. Superior to the latter are those who do not care for the fruits of their actions (duties). (III-29-32) May 5. The individual soul migrates from one sphere to another based on the past action and after taking one birth it again performs fresh action, the seed for future births. (III-31-43) May 26. By operating on His power of Time, the Lord becomes an agent (doer) and yet not an agent. He becomes a destroyer, yet not a destroyer. Lord’s ways are mysterious and beyond comprehension of a common man. (IV-11-18) July 10/11. The ultimate Truth is what the sages call Vasudeva (the indweller in all beings) or God. He is known variously as Pure knowledge, the Real existence, and ultimate peace, Brahman etc. (V-12-11). Sept 23. Some of the methods of developing intense love and devotion for the Lord are serving one’s matter (Guru) with sincere devotion, surrendering all possessions to the Lord, association with devotees and saints and by worshipping the Lord ritualistically. (VII-7-30) October 30/31. By practicing the path the of devotion one can get simultaneously three things viz. intense love for God, detachment from worldly objects and the experience of God’s presence all times. (XI-2-42) share the wealth, cheers & om sanjeev www.esamskriti.com is for Those who are Passionate about IndiaTo mail - exploreindia (AT) vsnl (DOT) net, to Un write back.esamskriti has over 160 articles, 800 pictures & a Music Gallery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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