You call us fundamentalists, we are reformists:Togadia

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>bjp-l (AT) ofbjp (DOT) org >vaidika1008 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com >[bJP News]:

You call us fundamentalists, we are actually reformists : Togadia >Tue, 5

Nov 2002 06:15:09 -0800 > >Title: ‘You call us fundamentalists, we are actually

reformists’ : Togadia >Author: Pravin Togadia's interview >Publication:

Indian Express >Nov. 5, 2002

>http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=12488 > >Five Dalits

may have been lynched in Jhajjar but that has nothing to do with caste or the

Vishwa Hindu Parishad, says Pravin Togadia, the organisation’s general

secretary. And the post-lynching conversions are a “conspiracy” to convert

“harijans”. Concluding excerpts from an interview with Tavleen Singh. > >I

want to draw your attention to the Jhajjar incident where five Dalits were

killed by a mob who thought they had killed a cow. The VHP supported the

killings on the grounds that if they could kill their Mother, the mob could

kill their brothers? Do you support the killings? >Again, the same effort by

secularist media to go away from the point... In the case of the Jhabua nuns’

rape—Bajrang Dal, Bajrang Dal. (If there is) a Congress government then no

Bajrang Dal, an investigation. Graham Staines killing, Bajrang Dal, Bajrang Dal

when there was no Bajrang Dal in that district. > >The same case in Jhajjar, it

has nothing to do with the VHP. It is your effort to humiliate Hindu

organisations in the land of the Hindus. > >Do you approve of what happened?

>I’m coming to that. So one journalist asked Acharya Giriraj Kishore about

individuals and the cow killed (the difference). He answered without any

reference to the Hindus and it was attached to Jhajhar. You have not read my

statement. > >What have you said? >You have not read it, that’s your problem. I

have said it is not a caste clash. One of those killed was a Brahmin, the caste

colour was given by secularists. > >Secondly, I condemn killing totally as a

VHP general secretary. Now, you know Jhajhar is part of Mewat, you know Mewat

is from where the Tableegh movement was started by Maulana Ilyasi, you know cow

killing is rampant, you know that a few months ago, 40 Harijans have been

converted to Islam, there is a grand design by Tableegh to convert Harijans and

if you want to convert Harijans, you have to divide them. You secularists are

providing a forum. > >If you were a Dalit and you weren’t allowed into a

temple, wouldn’t you convert? >Let me complete. A forum to Tagleegh by

providing caste colour. > >Wherever I go I find that Dalits are not supporters

of your Hindu organisations. >Come to Gujarat (and see) because you are living

in an air-conditioned (life) and seeing things in a jaundiced way. The

organising secretary of the VHP in Gujarat is from a scheduled caste. We have

so many workers, the next president of the VHP Kerala, Madan is a scheduled

caste. We have given training to 14,000 scheduled caste priests in Tamil Nadu.

> >Why in Jhajjar have Dalits (since the incident) converted to Buddhism,

Christianity and Islam? >In Mewat there is a big conspiracy by the Tableegh to

convert Harijans. > >But, then they would become Muslims, not Christians and

Buddhists? >This is also a plot. Udit Raj is on the payroll of the Christians

so when it is not possible to convert directly in between they become

Buddhists. I am not talking about Dr Ambedkar (and his mass conversions), that

was a genuine conversion out of convictions, but what is happening under the

leadership of Udit Raj is a stepping stone to accepting Christianity or Islam.

> >So there’s no caste problem in the Hindu religion? >It is there. There are

so many problems (for Dalits) in Christianity have you written any piece on

that? You don’t have the courage to ask the Christians? I will give you a

declaration by the Pope—it is in my computer—there is discrimination in the

church against Dalits, go to Tamil Nadu. > >In 1793 the Pope issued a writ

saying discrimination should be continued. I am not justifying our caste

differences, what I want to emphasise is that when anti-Hindu people are making

allegations against us to divide Hindu society. You Hindu secularists are acting

on behalf of these people. > >I can name any number of Hindu temples in which

Dalits are not allowed to enter. If there is a church that forbids them

entering, tell me I will do a story. >First, listen to me, I am talking about

discrimination within the Church... > >So which churches are they not allowed

to enter? You said... >No I didn’t, listen to your tape again, I am saying the

Church discriminates against Dalits in so many ways. > >Like? >In the case of

cemeteries. Burial grounds for Dalit and non-Dalit Christians are separate, in

some cases there is a wall. > >Where? >I will send you the details. The Church

claims equality but practices discrimination and they are asking about our

inequalities and you are carrying their agenda. The unfortunate part is that

Hindus are carrying the agenda of the Pope. > >What do you think of the caste

system? And what needs to be done about its inequalities? >The VHP believes in

an ever changing social order. Yuganakul samajik parivartan... aap kitni Hindi

likh pati hain mujhe pata nahin. We believe there is a need to change always,

that is why we have a code of conduct which we call Smruti—not just Manu

Smruti—there are 80 smrutis because we don’t believe that what was said once is

not applicable always. That is the Hindu dharma. VHP not only strongly believes

this but is practising it, that is why we have established the Dharma Sansad,

an institution for social reform. > >In the second Dharma Sansad in Udupi, at

which several acharyas were present, the subject was caste and they unanimously

concluded that untouchability was not part of the Hindu dharma, what was being

practiced was wrong and has no religious sanction. Regarding caste, they

resolved that all are equal. You call us fundamentalists but we are reformists.

> >What have you done to spread this message? >It may be symbolic but our

Shankaracharya has eaten at the residence of Kashi Chandala Naresh, the Dom

Raj. The Ram temple shilanyas was done by Kameshwar Chaupal, a scheduled caste.

> >Almost 20,000 sadhu-sants have been mobilised to go to scheduled castes to do

bhajan-kirtans, sometimes eat food. We have started training Harijan priests.

Now we are starting a programme to establish family to family relations. >

>And, we command sufficient influence to change the mindset of non-Harijan

Hindus. VHP will resolve this problem, but not by conflict like (Swami)

Agnivesh. One Harijan family will establish relations with a non-Harijan

family. > >As the leader of an organisation that takes pride in being Hindu,

how do you feel about the fact that even the Ganga is dirty, that India—Bharat

Mata—is one of the dirtiest countries in the world? That when you drive around

an Indian city you feel ashamed to be Indian. >That is again your problem. You

are suffering from selective hearing. We have not only raised the issue of the

Ganga, we have agitated, we have taken a yatra from Ganga sagar to the end, we

have created awareness. > >Why is the Ganga still filthy? >I don’t accept the

word filthy. > >Is it clean? >I will not accept the word filthy from a

secularist regarding the Ganga. > >I feel very ashamed ‘‘as a secularist’’ that

the Ganga, our most sacred river, is filthy? >But you should not insult Ganga. I

appreciate your feelings... but sometimes it seems anti-Hindu secularists who

have hatred for Hindu society have inherited the hatred of a Britisher, you

hate Hindu society...you hate us and you try to establish our agenda also, you

have no right to establish my agenda. Only people who have love for Hindu

society have a right. > >Who are you to question my love for this country? >I

am not questioning your love for country, I referred to Hindutva. > >I believe

the kind of Hindutva your organisation has been practicing has spread hatred,

not constructive activity, which is why I’m asking you these questions. >THE

VHP is doing a lot of constructive work throughout Bharat. At present we are

running single teacher schools in 5,000 plus tribal villages, we are running 22

orphanages, we are running hostels for tribal boys and girls in 16 places in the

Northeast, we are running 8,000 plus social service projects in Bharat in which

come clinics, medical services, women’s education, self-employment and tribal

education also. One-third of our resources are deployed in the social service

sector. > >What about the other 70%? >We have divided our activities in three

parts. One is to build an organisational structure which will serve Hindu

society. Second, with the help of this organisation to run a social services

project. > >Where does your money come from? >We have a system to collect small

donations of ten rupees and some people give Rs 100, Rs 500, Rs 1,000. In the

case of Ram temple we asked for sava rupaya (Rs 1.25) and we collected Rs 8

crore 40 lakh. We are getting tremendous support. >The allegation that we are

getting foreign funds (is wrong). Since 1964, it was our resolve not to accept

a single dollar outside Bharat because we will not accept money from citizens

from another country. > >This constructive work might be happening but your

image basically is of an organisation that spreads hatred against Muslims by

putting out propaganda, for instance, that the Muslim population is

increasingly alarmingly... >Give me the details, I will write them. I will give

you data when I reach Gujarat. For your information, I am publishing a document

from 1871 to 1991 to show how islamisation of Bharat is going on, I will send

it to you. > >Tell me if you think that the percentage of the Muslims has

increased since Independence vis-a-vis the Hindus. >Oh yes. Quite a lot. I will

send you the exact figures. We calculate that Hindus will be reduced to a

minority in 2041 if we count Bharat, Pakistan, Bangladesh as a single unit

because now demography of Bangladesh is affecting Bharat and we have done a lot

of studies. > >Coming back to the question of hatred...How are Hindus and

Muslims going to stay together? >When you say your problem is only with jehadi

Muslims, can you tell me who is going to be the judge? >The Indian state. >

>So, if Sonia Gandhi heads the Indian state she will be the judge? >Whosoever

is elected democratically. I don’t want to mention the name of any individual

because the next day there will be a demonstration. > >Did you call her a dog?

>No. Never. It was in colloquial Gujarati, I come from a rural background. Main

gaon ke logon ko dog psychology samjha raha tha. One dog starts to bark in a

village all the dogs start to bark and in that total story I have not mentioned

Sonia Gandhi’s name once. > >You did say a dog from Italy? >Yes. I said a dog

from Italy. I also said from Lucknow, Kerala, Gujarat. Nobody has reacted, is

she the only citizen of Italy in the world? > >To come back to my question. How

is the Indian Prime Minister going to judge who is a jehadi Muslim and who

isn’t? >Jehadi violence and those ayats of the Quran and the hadith is well

known. Few parts of the Qoran and hadith teaches hatred against non-Muslims and

this is being taught in madrassas. > >If Egypt has stopped teaching that jehadi

part then why can’t we stop it in India? India is a secular country and if

Quran cannot be changed jehad will continue throughout the world, how will

civil society survive? > >But, the VHP also has problems with the Christian

religion. Before the Gujarat violence you had problems with Christians in

Gujarat? >No. We don’t have a major ideological clash with the Church. Only one

point regarding conversion, so if you forget conversion, we have no problems

with the Christians at all. And they’re not practising conversion violently.

Here, jehad is the central activity of Muslim society throughout the world. >

>Don’t you think there is any blame that Hindu society should take? >Not at

all. We are victims of violence for ten centuries and even today we are victims

of jehadi forces in Kashmir Valley, Godhra, Akshardham and we are victims of a

secularist Taliban also. We have been made second class citizens. > >How are

you second class citizens? >Why should Muslims be allowed four wives? Why not a

common civil code, that is a secular demand. Tell me a single secular country in

the world that does not have a common civil code. > >Just a couple of personal

questions to conclude, how did you get drawn to the VHP? >My family was very

religious I was very sensitive to matters of Hindu society, nationalism. In

1986, when I was 23, I was invited to join VHP and made general secretary for

Gujarat. And then when I saw the situation in Kashmir, when I saw that a one

million strong army could not protect Hindus and that there is no future of

Hindus in Bharat, that day I gave up my hospital to serve society. > >Who are

your heroes? >Krishna and Shivaji and (Ariel) Sharon because he has defeated 12

crore Arabs and defended 7 million Jews. > >There is more violence in the Middle

East now than ever before? >Violence will continue till there is jehad. From

Bali to Chechnya to Yemen, the Gulf, it is spreading to major places of

civilisation. > >So, how do you see the future: more violence and more

violence? >If jehad continues and you secularists don’t condemn jehadi

fundamentalism and madrassa education, civil war is certain. >

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