Free Will..do we have one?

[Guest guest]

Divine Message of His Holiness Shri Datta Swami

 

The spiritualism is the context in which you have to make efforts to reach God.

Our effort should be concentrated to achieve “Bhakthi†which is the love on

God. “Bhakthi†is achieved and is grown by the knowledge of God. For

example, you came to know that Bombay City exists. This is the knowledge of

existence of Bombay. By this you want to see Bombay. As you know the details

of Bombay more and more, your desire to see the city becomes more and more.

Knowing details about the Bombay City is again the further knowledge. So,

knowledge is directly proportional to desire. First Rukmini heard that there is

Lord Krishna on this earth. As she heard more and more about Lord Krishna from

Sage Narada, her love on Krishna increased enormously. Narada means he who

gives knowledge. Therefore, ‘Jnanaâ€(knowledge) generates and develops

“Bhakthi (devotion)â€. Due to Bhakthi, the Lord is attained. Gita says the

same ‘ONLY BY BHAKTHI I AM ATTAINED’

(‘Bhaktya………’).

In the spiritual path all your effort must be concentrated in acquiring the

knowledge of God day by day. Once this knowledge based Bhakthi (devotion) is

achieved, your qualities good or bad are immaterial. Whatever may be the

vessel, the drink in it is important. The value paid in a hotel is for the

drink only. If you have taken a cup of coffee, you are paying the cost of the

coffee only whether the cup is made of glass or metal. Similarly, God gives

value only for your Bhakthi and not for your quality.

 

Q) If everything is according to the will of the Lord, who is the overall

controller, there is no independence for any human being in this world. In such

case the human being should not receive the fruits of its actions. How do you

justify this? Ans) The Lord is controlling all the souls as per Veda

“Aatmeshwaramâ€, which means that all the souls are ruled by the Lord. Gita

also says the same “Bhuthanaam Eeswarahâ€. But this does not mean that there

is no independence for the soul. When the king rules the kingdom, all the people

in that kingdom are independent in their activities, but they are within the

rules of the king. Thus a short span of independence in the human life exists

under the control and supervision of the Lord. A cat caught a rat by its jaws.

It leaves the rat after a bite for a short span of time. In that span the rat

gets independence and runs in any side as it likes. But the cat is watching the

rat and catches it again whenever the rat is out of the limits

of the supervision. Similarly the Lord called “Kaala†(death) catches a

human being and bites. The bite is the illness of the human being. The repeated

diseases are the repeated bites of the ‘Kaala†or the Lord. During the bite

the rat looses completely its independence. Similarly any human being, which is

attacked by the disease becomes a patient and looses its independence

completely. The cat plays with the rat for sometime like this and finally

swallowes the rat. Similarly, the human being is swallowed by the Lord at the

end.

 

The whole creation itself is like a rat for the cat like Lord, which is told in

Brahmasutra “Atta Charaachara Grahanaatâ€. Thus the short span of

independence of human beings under the supervision of the overall controlling

Lord, creates the full game and entertainment for the Lord. The entertainment is

the basic reason of the creation by the Lord as said in Veda (Ekaaki Na Ramate)

and as said in Brahmasutra (Lokavattu). Within the limits of the supervision of

the cat, the rat will receive the result of the direction in which it runs. In

one direction there may be fire and the rat may receive the heat. In another

direction there may be cold water and the rat will receive the coolness in that

direction. The rat is independent to receive the result of the direction and has

full independence to go in any direction. The final death of the rat shows that

the rat is under the control of the cat during its choice of direction also,

which is not interfered by the cat. Similarly the human

life is with full of independence but the final end proves that the

independence is under the control of the Lord. Yet, since there was no

interference of the Lord during the human life, the human being receives the

results according to its actions. Thus the “whole game is perfectly justified

in any angleâ€.

 

posted by: His servant

at the lotus feet of shri datta swami

www.universal-spirituality.org

 

Baba ji <beirut_ka_baba wrote: --- In

[Guest guest]

Yes, this question has certainly been discussed repeatedly, which

indicates that some of us (including myself) are not quite sure of

the answer yet.

 

At one point one of my Guru's had been asking me to take care of my

health, and take certain actions. frustrated with this question of

freewill vs destiny, I said to him, "If everything is destiny then

what if I don't do anything?" His answer was interesting.

 

He said, as per your consciousness right now, there are certain

things you will do, whether you like it or not. Your current

inclinations are based on the awareness gathered from the past (aka

karmic progress). Unknown to you, the arrival of a Guru,

the "chance", the "coincidences", the guidance via any available

instrument, all are part of the drama already laid out by the

Universal Intelligence, in accordance to your karma. All you have to

do is follow your inclination."

 

Thus if a person appears to be stuck in a certain pattern of actions

(behavior), untill they have learnt to break out of it, that is

where they will stay. This "learning" is experiential, not

inellecatual and comes out of a sum total of ones thoughts, feelings

and actions.

 

As in any interaction there is two sides .. the giver and the

receiver. In your example of the hungry man and one's choices

towards to him, a person will be "inclined" to help, if that is

where they have reached in their spiritual evolution. On the

receiver's side, the hungry man's inclination will also determine

whether he gets food and in what manner. If he is in a state of

resentful and/or fearful thinking that "everyone is bad; no one

helps me, I am poor, I can never get out of this," etc etc he may

not get the food he is looking for, and in fact may mirror back the

same disrespect he has for his own self. If he is set karmically to

learn the lesson of humility, because of past arrogance he is likely

to meet different kind of givers, perhaps more insulting and

demeaning. Depending on what he has to learn, he will be set up to

for that kind of an interaction.

 

And yes, nothing is linear in this amazing multidimentional world.

We attempt to process such concepts through our limited perception

and understanding capabilities, which make it even more confusing.

 

_/\_ Tat Twam asi

 

Uma

 

 

, "Baba ji" <beirut_ka_baba>

wrote:

>

 

>> Though this is true that the destiny of each human is

enlightenment

> and Mother Nature is rigorously working on it...yet the path she

takes

> for this evolution is not linear or in a straight line.

[Guest guest]

Yess dear Udai, I agree with you. We are not puppets in the hands of

destiny.

 

It is like sitting in a competetive Exam. The examiner selects the

questions and it is also purely his will to give four possible answers

one of which is true...so the students just ticks the right answer.

And his choice of answer will decide if he will fail or pass. Examiner

do not guide/force student to select a particular choice.

 

Our past Karma, our destiny and our environment decide the situation

for us...and when the time of choice for us comes...Nature and God move

away and wait for our choice. Nature has pre-planned the destiny for

each choice...and we are not forced to select a particular choice.

THIS IS OUR FREE WILL.

 

For example, if due to last birth's Karma, i am destined to kill a

person...and Nature presents such circumstances where that person need

to be killed by me...I am given the moto...i am given the weapon...i am

given the reasons and fury to kill him,...i am given ways to save

myself from law.

 

BUT still if i decide to forgive that man and not kill him...Nature

will never force me to kill him...and my decision will break the chain

of that particular karma..and will take me to next height of

evolution...and if I kill that man...i will be sucked into the

whirlpool of karmas.

 

As for the karma of that person to be killed is concerned....if i do

not kill...someone else will kill him...This is what Krishna told

Arjuna...these Kauravas have already been killed by me...by fighting

you take the credit.

 

On another wavelength..if we discard Karma theory to be only as a

simple Fruit and punishment saga...and see it as necessary tool for the

development of the infant ego...trying to reach supreme youth...all

these problem become very simple to understand

 

with love

 

 

baba

[Guest guest]

, "Tatwamasi" <tatwamasi> wrote:

>

.. In your example of the hungry man and one's choices

> towards to him, a person will be "inclined" to help,

 

Yes this "inclined" to help is what we can call our Free Will. You

might have noticed...that sometimes, we desire something...the

circumstances demand something...but we take another decision in a

given situation.

 

The word which you used as "Spritual progress"...is the viveka

developed over the years due to our good choices. Our Viveka decides

for us...and this viveka gets inspiration from SOUL.

 

So it is an interdependent relationship. Our Soul tells us through

our viveka to select a certain choice...and if we agree...viveka will

be further purified...which in turn will reflect more of soul's

desire to choose ...thus purifying our Viveka further.

 

Hence one good action or one good choice...will start a chain

reaction of future good action...but these two are sometimes maligned

by lower Prakriti, always working to take her share out of our

deeds...and if we are a little careful, not to fall pray to the

Negativity, we may avoid being sucked into desires of lower Prakriti.

 

Of course, Nature is taking us towards Enlightenment...but it is

an ideal condition which may never be fulfilled...or she may success

in some cases, Because besides the call of the Divinity, we have

pressure of Lower prakriti to think for us only, pressure from our

surroundings, demanding their share, pressure from our karma to

follow a certain path. In such a chaotic calls, it is very difficult

for us to listen to the call of our Viveka...which is echoing the

desire of the Soul.

 

Mother Nature does not chose, person by her free will, for the

final journey towards truth. It is our small choice, small

selection, which make us fit to be noticed by Nature, for her

ultimate selection.

 

The other apparently simple, but very difficult(practically) way to

get out of this web of Karma is to surrender all our deeds to the God.

 

As long as we are thinking in terms of "I Decide"...we have to be

careful in our choices...in our reactions..and in our selections.

Mother Nature has pre-planned our path for all the choices...and we

choose the path....by making a small choice.

[Guest guest]

True ,True,True,Dear Babaji,

 

Now I read the question again and was just

laughing,how we missed the question itself.

 

"Free Will..do we have one?"

 

We are in this form of human being because of our free

will only.Further the destiny we have now is because

of our free will only.Destiny is nothing but outcome

of free will.Even the world today is outcome of

multiple individual free wills only.

 

If the world is 100% disastrus by everybodies "free

will" it will get automatically destroyed.This world

inclused material and devine world.Only devotion (the

constructive force)will help in this case because

constructive forces overcome the destructive

forces.This battle is permanent.

 

Its very clear that the "originality" of every thing

in the world is "parbrahman" the "nirguna".Everything

come out from it and gets diluted in it.We are also

inclusive of this process.

 

We had the choice of going back to our originality in

the first birth itself.yet we got involved and

interested in material attractions(illusions) and

become more and more material body and lost the vision

of our originality.It was due to our free will

only."Supremo" has given every opportunity all the

time to decide our destiny and now also offering us

the same.Yet we want to let the destiny take its own

way which is not correct.

 

Our todays (current Life)choice will become destiny of

tomorrow(next birth).We are given the choice again and

forever.

 

Everything in world has its own destiny,only human

have choice to choose the destiny,which is truly

wonderfull.He can become one of the gods, or he can

becomes one of the devils, or he can become human

again or animal.By his todays activities he can plan

his future life destiny.

 

There is story in "saint Tukaram's" life,His mother in

law become"donkey" after her death. She came in front

of there home and was weeping.Tukaramji had

written"abhanga" (bhakthi song) on that.It says"she

carried all the time the worries of work,she became

donkey".

 

The most deep and front appeared thought at the exact

time in micro seconds at which soul leaves the body

during death will decide the destiny of human where he

will go first and with respect to that birth in that

particular form his collective karmas will give

effects throughout that life.

 

What we do today is the practise of the last moment

thought(sankalpa for next birth again) during our life

time so that it will the most effective thought with

vision at the time of our death where we want to go.

 

It better and best way to "remember(smarana)" all the

time any one and one only some superior form like

"Lord vishnu " or"lord shiva", or the most powerfull

form of "sadguru" so that either we have there form or

at least at their close vicinity.This will regularise

the deepest feeling in us and will lead towards there

after our death.Apart from that these devine bodies

will help us to betterment of this life provided we

please them.

 

These forms are the closest forms of the "originality"

the "supremo" and jumping towards our originality from

these forms will be very easy, in future births.The

speciality of these superior forms is that we have

choice again for rebirth in human form and get

liberated.

 

Offcourse this rememberence should not and never be

like "paduraka vasudev" the fake one.

 

These superior gods keep watching the activities on

earth because they have become gods through human

bodies only.Thats the reason they will never make the

mother earth ruined.

 

Lord shiva (& these tridents also)have no mother and

father because he is the first person in that society

who got liberation(mukti),and therefore has his form

in those days.Therefore he is called aadiguru, who

taught these processes and methods of liberation.Those

who followed him they got diluted themself into his

form and the chain reaction continued.This is how

shivloka is formed.The number of shiva incarnations

are the people in shiva form who took birth to

generate constructive forces through devotion and got

final liberation to "originality".These incarnations

claim they are "purnavatar" (complete form)"

or"anshavatar"(part form) of that particular form.

 

They take incarantion,get further progress,and get

liberated to originality.This chain continues.At there

stage they are very next to "original resourse of

universe".

 

When people get attracted towards destructive forces

and start worshiping devil activities the devotees of

the gods reduces,the devine chain slows down, and the

population of lokas reduces.

 

This increases destructive force in the world and

makes damage to life the construction.Then these gods

decide to come down and search for qualified parents

who can sustain their purity.They teach people the way

through which they got liberated and increase devotion

among people.

 

Everything is based on our "free will".then how can we

say "do we have one?" we have it definately.

 

 

 

--- Baba ji <beirut_ka_baba wrote:

 

> Yess dear Udai, I agree with you. We are not

> puppets in the hands of

> destiny.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

1. Obviously I didn't make my analogy of being a puppet very clear.

My intended qwery for discusion was - Are we a puppet of the karmic

law, and have no control, or do we have the free will to change the

course WE have triggered, for ourselves? To use an extreme example,

if we jump off a cliff, are we totally in the hands of the Law of

Gravity or do we have any power to change any aspect of the fall?

 

2. >>>>>>So it is an interdependent relationship. Our Soul tells us

through our viveka to select a certain choice...and if we agree.>>>>

 

If who agress? The ego? Will the ego agree before it is READY to

accept the choice of right action? What makes it ready? Our karmic

readiness ... isn't it?

 

3. This need for free will ... is this a need of our ego, wanting

control, unable to give up its importance?

 

The more one aligns oneself to the Universal principles by walking

the talk and allowing IT to guide us, the more uncomfortable the ego

becomes and attempts to sidetrack and derail us. Ego sticks its head

up in the form of spiritual or intellectual pride, competitive

pride, at every stage of spiritual growth. The Ego and its aspects

are a necesary tool, but only a tool. Instead it wants to be the

primary focus, as it is in those who are not conscious of their True

nature. Thus whenever the ego's position/superiority feels

threatened, it fights back in not so righteous ways.

 

_/\_ Tat twam asi

 

Uma

 

, "Baba ji" <beirut_ka_baba>

wrote:

>

 

>

> Yes this "inclined" to help is what we can call our Free Will.

You

> might have noticed...that sometimes, we desire something...the

> circumstances demand something...but we take another decision in a

>

[Guest guest]

1.Are we a puppet of the karmic law, and have no

control, or do we have the free will to change the

course WE have triggered, for ourselves? To use an

extreme example, if we jump off a cliff, are we

totally in the hands of the Law of Gravity or do we

have any power to change any aspect of the fall?

 

==everybody knows what happens after we jump from the

cliff.It is the destiny under certain circumstance

that you have to jump the cliff. Its again the destiny

whether your life is saved at the cost of fracture or

not.Or whether you become dead is also destiny.

 

But The free will try to think the options available

to find other ways to avoide jumping. If your will is

strong it will definately find a way or either it will

catch some branch a tree to avoid falling.This is free

will & it will avoid fractures.Death is a planned

event and can not be changed.

 

2.If who agress? The ego? Will the ego agree before it

is READY to accept the choice of right action? What

makes it ready? Our karmic readiness ... isn't it?

 

== ego has only one characteristics which says"I am".

it is who agrees is "intellect"The job of intellect is

to decide the choice.

our karmic readyness gives preference of the choice,

but our "intellect" decide then what to do and what

not to do even under strong influence of our karmic

readyness.

 

3. This need for free will ... is this a need of our

ego, wanting control, unable to give up its

importance?

 

== The need of free will is the need of "ego",but not

wanting control and importance,since sheer ego is only

pleasure.When "chitta" is attached to it,it has

prefernces and choices and directions either positive

or negative.

 

"Ego" is only a birth of individuality and only an

existance of self.The mind,intellect,and chitta gives

it shape of a particular form and character.

 

if we loose this "ego" our existance is wiped out of

this world.

4.The more one aligns oneself to the Universal

principles by walking the talk and allowing IT to

guide us, the more uncomfortable the ego becomes and

attempts to sidetrack and derail us.

 

This ego is different from the "ego" through which our

existance comes from.The ego which you are saying is

the mind focus attached mainly to material things

which create desires and if we loose them, it wants

them back and as you said, it wants to be the primary

focus, as it is in those who are not conscious of

their True nature. Thus whenever the ego's

position/superiority> feels threatened, it fights back

in not so righteous ways.

 

These are the reactions from the attachments.Its not

the "ego" which we refer for the existance of soul.

 

The ego which you are mensioning is truly the

attachments of material or further you can say the

soul truly material structured.

 

 

--- Tatwamasi <tatwamasi wrote:

If who agress? The ego? Will the ego agree before it

is READY to

accept the choice of right action? What makes it

ready? Our karmic readiness ... isn't it?

[Guest guest]

, "Tatwamasi" <tatwamasi> wrote:

>

>

> 1. Obviously I didn't make my analogy of being a puppet very clear.

> My intended qwery for discusion was - Are we a puppet of the karmic

> law, and have no control, or do we have the free will to change the

> course WE have triggered, for ourselves? To use an extreme example,

> if we jump off a cliff, are we totally in the hands of the Law of

> Gravity or do we have any power to change any aspect of the fall?

=--

In a broader perview, we can say that we are puppets in the hands

of our old karma...becoz this birth has been given to us to get

fruits/punishment for certain Karma...and what ever good we do, it

will not affect this birth...as this will be used for next

birth...This is a common practice followed by nature for common men.

Now this may have some exceptions:-

 

like a god realised soul may change destiny of a person...BUT this

is very rare..but possible.

The sadhna is so intense that it negates the old karma energies

and change the life of a person...this too is very rare

 

It is a common belief in hinduism, that Vidhi Maata (goddess of

destiny) writes 4 things on the forehead of a child (i) how he will

earn his livelyhood(ii) whom and when he would marry (iii) how many

children he will have (iv) where, how and when he would die. Now

even Brahma can not changes these four destinies...and all other

things can be changed by sadhna or by blessings or by other factors.

 

But our small choices in other things can decide, if we are fit

for sadhna path or not.

----

 

> 2. >>>>>>So it is an interdependent relationship. Our Soul tells us

> through our viveka to select a certain choice...and if we agree.>>>>

>

> If who agress? The ego? Will the ego agree before it is READY to

> accept the choice of right action? What makes it ready? Our karmic

> readiness ... isn't it?

----

Yes and Karmic readiness is nothing but the right choices made by

us in last/this birth.

----

>

> 3. This need for free will ... is this a need of our ego, wanting

> control, unable to give up its importance?

----

Any action which has a seed of "controlling" in it, is certainly

handicraft of Ahankaar

----

>

> The more one aligns oneself to the Universal principles by walking

> the talk and allowing IT to guide us, the more uncomfortable the

ego

> becomes and attempts to sidetrack and derail us. Ego sticks its

head

> up in the form of spiritual or intellectual pride, competitive

> pride, at every stage of spiritual growth. The Ego and its aspects

> are a necesary tool, but only a tool. Instead it wants to be the

> primary focus, as it is in those who are not conscious of their

True

> nature. Thus whenever the ego's position/superiority feels

> threatened, it fights back in not so righteous ways.

>

> _/\_ Tat twam asi

 

If we go by Tantrik view, Ego is not to be blamed...the real ego is

not deciding...it merely watches...it is the mind which creates

the "lower I"...an I which is desiring...which is deciding...which is

revenging...which is really a superfluous ego created by the mixture

of mind and our lower prakrity

 

with love

 

baba

[Guest guest]

I think we can have one example may elaborate free

will and destiny,

 

A healthy person comes into bacterial contacts and

gets infected.He goes to doctor and takes some

medicene.That medicine doesnt give any result.Hence he

becomes more sick.Another doctor gives him some

medicine and he gets better.Doctor suggests him some

diet.The person follows it for days and after few days

forgets the diet.He becomes sick again.

 

Now lets see how we can differenciate the free will

and destiny

1.Person is healthy =destiny

2.Comes into bacterial infection =either destiny or

free will

Lets say bacterial infection throgh water

If the person might have negelected to drink boiled

water =its free will(intellect)

If its his ignorance to check water is boiled or not

= destiny

3.Goes to doctor= Free will

4.The doctor turns to be improper =destiny

5.He goes to anather doctor =free will(intellect)

6.This doctor is fine= free will + Destiny

This is welknown doctor so he decides to go to

him.then its free will.Use of viveka (intellect)

7.He gets better =destiny + free will

8.He does diet= free will

9.He forgets diet =Ego(material, over confidence or

carelessness) + destiny.

10.he becomes sick again = destiny

 

He could have changed his last destiny of becoming

sick by using proper food.He did not by using his free

will.

 

 

--- Tatwamasi <tatwamasi wrote:

 

Are we a puppet of the karmic law, and have no

control, or do we have the free will to change the

course WE have triggered, for ourselves?

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

None of this is about blame. It is about identifying a process, with

the roles played by the different parts. For me, it is easier to make

changes if I know where the blocks are.

 

There is only one "i" - ego (which leads to our incarnation) which is

what leads to our incarnation. If we don't incarnate in this body, the

question of thinking, feeling, actions doesn't arise does it? It is the

what we have to work with, to the extent "we" do any work. This is

probably why the earth plane incarnation is held in high regard because

it offers opportunities to burn karma.

 

This ego is not all "bad" either. It has the collective vasanas and

samskaras, which includes BOTH the positive and the negative beliefs

and attitudes accumulated over our karmic past. It is this which

incarnates in the curent form, in all its glory. The divine spark

within lies in the playground of the mind as the big "I", which is

constantly pushing us to our ultimate goal, more often in spite of us.

 

Different schools of thought deal with handling the ego "i" in

different ways, each attempting to rope in the aspects that are not

helpful. Like a father, some systems, use harsh words, some use the

stick, while others work openly with it!

 

_/\_ Tat twam asi

 

Uma

 

 

, "Baba ji" <beirut_ka_baba> wrote:

 

>

> If we go by Tantrik view, Ego is not to be blamed...the real ego is

> not deciding...it merely watches...it is the mind which creates

> the "lower I"...an I which is desiring...which is deciding...which is

> revenging...which is really a superfluous ego created by the mixture

> of mind and our lower prakrity

>

> with love

>

> baba

>

[Guest guest]

The "EGO" in spiritual manner is only "pleasure" .This

is the pleasure of "aham""I am".It can not be either

bad or either good.Its beyond that.It has the

transperency of the origin of it.Therefore it will

always try to remain is the pleasure state.

 

This state is called as turiya state.Above this level

the duality ends.This sheer "aham" state is "shiva" or

" vishnu" status.

 

This mirror is dustified by collective impressions

either positive or negative. This dust is collective

effect of "intelligence,mind and chitta"The shape

/figure of dust is form,its either devine or material.

 

The "EGO" itself is pure as new born child.Thses

chitta,mind and intellect makes it human of destiny

and free will.

 

 

--- Tatwamasi <tatwamasi wrote:

 

This ego is not all "bad" either. It has the

collective vasanas and samskaras, which includes BOTH

the positive and the negative beliefs and attitudes

accumulated over our karmic past. It is this which

incarnates in the curent form, in all its glory. The

divine spark within lies in the playground of the mind

as the big

"I", which is constantly pushing us to our ultimate

goal, more

often in spite of us.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

100% agree

 

--- Tatwamasi <tatwamasi wrote:

 

There is only one "i" - ego (which leads to our

incarnation) which is what leads to our incarnation.

If we don't incarnate

in this body, the question of thinking, feeling,

actions doesn't arise does it? It is the what we have

to work with, to the extent "we" do any work. This is

probably why the earth plane incarnation is held in

high regard because it offers opportunities to burn

karma.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, "Tatwamasi" <tatwamasi> wrote:

>

>

> None of this is about blame. It is about identifying a process,

with

> the roles played by the different parts. For me, it is easier to

make

> changes if I know where the blocks are.

--------------------------------

Baba:-And How do you know where the blocks are ??---

--------------------------------

> There is only one "i" - ego (which leads to our incarnation)

which is

> what leads to our incarnation.

-------------------------------

Baba:- 100% Disagree...As i wrote earlier...the Ego is a tiny spark

of the Divine developed in living beings...and is not responsible

for any of the (mis)deeds of ours, it is responsible to keep all the

faculties together...and those who have purified...who have seen the

Divine...they still have their ego intact.

 

As we have five bodies of the soul...we have different apparent

egos...Pranic ego, Manasic ego,Vigyanmaya ego, Anandmaya ego

etc...and each of these egos work simultaneously on the screen of

our Manas...each demanding its share from us and forcing us to

follow path favouring it....these shadow egos are responsible for

our selfish dees, desires, love and hate, and these are the causes

of our sufferings ...and with the progress in sadhna these

superfluous egos are tamed, or turned to higher divinity, or

destroyed.

 

THe real ego, the tiny spark vanishes only when we are one with the

supreme...and this is very rare phenomenon

---

 

If we don't incarnate in this body, the

> question of thinking, feeling, actions doesn't arise does it? It

is the

> what we have to work with, to the extent "we" do any work. This is

> probably why the earth plane incarnation is held in high regard

because

> it offers opportunities to burn karma.

>

> This ego is not all "bad" either. It has the collective vasanas ,

which includes BOTH the positive and the negative

-

Baba:- Yesss the real ego is never bad...and in fact none of the

egos is bad...these shadow egos, since they have developed from the

lower prakriti from matter...they have some work to do before

reflecting the divine in them....and without taming these egos, one

can not really reach the stage where the "Ego" has to finally

reflect the Divine

-

> and attitudes accumulated over our karmic past. It is this which

> incarnates in the curent form, in all its glory. The divine spark

> within lies in the playground of the mind as the big "I", which is

> constantly pushing us to our ultimate goal, more often in spite of

us.

---

 

Baba:-YESSS this is what exactly i am trying to say

 

with love

 

 

baba

[Guest guest]

, "udaykumar S.K."

<udaykumar001> wrote:

>

> The "EGO" in spiritual manner is only "pleasure" .This

> is the pleasure of "aham""I am".It can not be either

> bad or either good.Its beyond that..

>

> The "EGO" itself is pure as new born child.Thses

> chitta,mind and intellect makes it human of destiny

> and free will.

>

>

Very beautifully explained Udai...!!! But i dont agree with that

there is only "ego"....we have to accept shadow egos to explain the

dust on the mirror...and in one of your earlier posts you have

acccepted it.

 

with love

 

baba

[Guest guest]

Regardless of whether we actually have a free will or not, fatalism

does not serve our own good and this is something widely accepted.

Fatalism tends to bring forth passive and tamasic situations that

bring stagnation to our wordly and spiritual life. Action(raja) on the

other hand led by initiative (sattva)is a proof of a dynamic

personality and a clear mind which can function freely beyond the

limitations of its surroundings.

 

Karma is much like gravity, it drags you downwards, if you give in to

it. Karma is formed by all the complex situations, persons and

circumstances that are related to us, and in a broader sense, the

whole universe is related to us. So you can imagine the depth of this

karmic net and the effort required to overcome it.

 

I do not believe that it is impossible to change our destiny.

Markandeya did it, many yogis have done it. I just have some doubts

regarding events that are to materialize in short terms. It is said

that events take place firstly in the etheric and astral counterpart

of the world and can be seen. A great japanese spiritualist Mei Shu

Shama (The teacher of light) reports an incident with a psychic that

could see a city destroyed while walking throught its perfectly normal

buildings. Even illnesses manifest themself firstly on an etheric

level and then on the physical. Generally that is why it is difficult

to revert a karma from manifesting on the physical world, because it

has already began manifesting itself on the spiritual world. It is as

if it has actually already happened. It is like a missile that has

been shot but has not yet reached its target. Like a word that has

been said but has not yet reached our ears.

 

Still its not impossible to even nullify the effects of it. Long term

karmas, are easier to change and are often changed by our own

subconscious thoughts and desires. Now how can long and short term

karmas be defined, this is another story.

 

A great way to comprehend the relation of karma and free will is to

compare it with a game of chess. The first moves are always much

easier to make because there are many possibilities open. As the game

advances, our opponent reacts to our moves and forces us to make

certain ones that will prevent us from losing the game. The opponent

then reacts to our own moves and this way the game gets more and more

entangled. Generally, that player wins that has 1. the ability to

visualize the possibilities 2. the originality to solve a problem.

When the game reaches its highest complexity peak, one of the players

usually wins, releasing the energies that battled. To sum up, in chess

we start from freedom, go through complexity and limitations to

finally reach freedom again, one way or the other (loosing or winning

).

[Guest guest]

, om_agni_devi <no_reply wrote:

>

> A great way to comprehend the relation of karma and free will is to

> compare it with a game of chess. . To sum up, in chess

> we start from freedom, go through complexity and limitations to

> finally reach freedom again, one way or the other (loosing or winning

> ).

>

 

Very well explained...yes we start from freedom...pass through the

infectious stage of evolution...and slowly making right choices cross

this stage and gain freedom again.

 

tell me when the idea of sin infects us...and what purpose has it

in our evolution

 

love

 

baba

[Guest guest]

What exactly is fatalism?

 

According to those who live their lives on the basis of the fact

that we act, emote and think according to our readiness, there is no

choice and any talk of choice is a reflection of our ego attempting

to take charge. While a balance in our Gunas is ideal, it is our

readiness that is reflected in ones current combination of Gunas.

 

Have you ever attempted to assist, convince, or help one who is

stuck at the tamas level? In my personal experience, including my

own life, there is yet to be a case where a person made

active "choices" before they were ready to do so. And when they were

ready, like a beautifully choreographed play, everything (Gurus,

teachers, opportunities, information, realization, experience,

whatever it takes) comes together for the person to move on. While

this gives an impression of the individual making a choice, not one

step can be taken before the person is karmically ready to do so.

 

It is certanly widely accepted, specially among those of us who are

at the stage of taking responsibility for our conscious journey, and

those who are attempting to "assist" us in our journeys. And the

world is seeing more of that right now than ever before. It is

popular for many reasons, which include the desire to take charge of

one's journey, to hasten the process of evolution, or of course

the "i" - ego's need to be in control.

 

It has been my single most common argument with any Guru, or swami I

have had the privilege to meet from bhaktas to vedantists to

aghoris. I am beginning to entertain this idea now because of my

personal experiences so far.

 

Moving from intelluctual processing to action, Try it. Attempt to

spend a day without making a conscious intellectual choice (all

choices are first made in the intellect - conscious or otherwise).

See what gets done. Next day, attempt to remain tuned to the part of

you that "compells" you to do anything, and see what you do or not

do. Experiment with it; notice your resistance or the lack of it.

 

Its funny, when I read my earlier posts, I notice this change in my

thinking. I never thought I would say this today, but this is what

my experience, both as in individual and as a professional in my

field, has brought me to today.

 

While this idea is hazy for me and still in the process of

manifesting in myself, the only thing I am certain about is that

nothing other than the SELF is here to stay.

 

_/\_ Tat twam asi

 

Uma

 

, om_agni_devi <no_reply wrote:

>

> Regardless of whether we actually have a free will or not,

fatalism

> does not serve our own good and this is something widely accepted.

> Fatalism tends to bring forth passive and tamasic situations that

> bring stagnation to our wordly and spiritual life. Action(raja) on

the

> other hand

[Guest guest]

Dear Uma,

I think that the very tantric technique of awareness aims at leading a

conscious life, so that we are able to make choices by will power and

thought, and not just let destiny and karma drift us. I am not saying

that it is easy, nor that it happens all the time. Most of the time,

our choices (conscious or not) are the result of our subconscious

wishes. I somehow feel that there is a part of us, with which we are

not yet aquinted, that has a saying in all this life and sequence of

events. It could be the part of our subconscious mind with which we

cannot yet consciously communicated. The part that has access to the

eternal wisdom, to the future and past. So, no matter how much we try

to take conscious choices, we will never be able to know if they are

in accordance to our subconscious counterpart. To that part of ourself

which remains unknown to us. The solution is to know ourself and make

the subconsciousness, concsious.

 

The trap in the method you describe is that it can leave room for

instant inspirations that originate from that hidden all-knowing part

of us BUT there is nothing that will guarantee that these decisions

actually are led by it. They could just as well be done primitively,

instinctly without any inner guidance, being mere consequences or

reactions to previous actions.

 

Finally, we must not understimate the power of thought over karma.

Though itself generates karma, channelized thoughts and beliefs

charged with prana can make wonders. Although I realize the great

impact of the law of karma, I am not ready to accept it as a final

unreversable concept.

 

 

, "Tatwamasi" <tatwamasi wrote:

 

> Moving from intelluctual processing to action, Try it. Attempt to

> spend a day without making a conscious intellectual choice (all

> choices are first made in the intellect - conscious or otherwise).

> See what gets done. Next day, attempt to remain tuned to the part of

> you that "compells" you to do anything, and see what you do or not

> do. Experiment with it; notice your resistance or the lack of it.

[Guest guest]

, om_agni_devi <no_reply wrote:

>

> which remains unknown to us. The solution is to know ourself and

make

> the subconsciousness, concsious.

>

, om_agni_devi <no_reply wrote:

>

> Dear Uma,

> The solution is to know ourself and make

> the subconsciousness, concsious.

>

Agni devi...knowingly or unknowingly you have mentioned the biggest

secret of Sadhna..

 

Yes it is the basic truth..that by sadhna we bring sub-conscious

into the realms of conscious mind (or we can say we take our

conscious mind into the sub-conscious and bring light to those dark

corners)

 

our sub-conscious can be compared with a vast park behind our

house..we have a small window from which we can reach out to that

park..what ever we see from the window...we think it is

ours...whereas all other houses have same widow at the back, and

they see their part of the park.

 

similarly, the sub-conscious we treat as ours is in fact a piece of

faculty which we treat as ours...but the sub-conscious as a deeper

level belongs to all...living beings. It has the memories of our

past...it has the memories of others past...it has the memories of

beginning of life as single cell...even beyond that

 

And by sadhna, we take control of the sub-conscious, and the

deeper we go...the more we are aware of the universe....

 

Reaching the last end of sub-conscious, where it emerges from the

Brahma...is the Moksha !!

 

All sadhnas, do this...but some do it directly Pranayama and

Trataka are among them...where consc mind is used to interfer with

the sub-conscious and bring it under the control of our awakened

state.

 

with love

 

baba

[Guest guest]

agree dear babaji

 

--- Baba ji <beirut_ka_baba wrote:

[Guest guest]

agree babaji

 

--- Baba ji <beirut_ka_baba wrote:

 

> , "udaykumar S.K."

 

> >

> Very beautifully explained Udai...!!! But i dont

> agree with that

> there is only "ego"....we have to accept shadow egos

> to explain the

> dust on the mirror...and in one of your earlier

> posts you have

> acccepted it.

>

> with love

>

> baba

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

--- Tatwamasi <tatwamasi wrote:

It has been my single most common argument with any

Guru, or swami I have had the privilege to meet from

bhaktas to vedantists to aghoris. I am beginning to

entertain this idea now because of my personal

experiences so far.

 

==Umaji can you through some light on your personal

experiences.So that they become example for the other

readers too,

 

It will be truly discussion on experinces rather than

philosophis.

 

 

 

am asi

>

> Uma

>

> , om_agni_devi

> <no_reply wrote:

> >

> > Regardless of whether we actually have a free will

> or not,

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I have ceratin comments on these below.

 

Actually there is a certain confusion about "ego"

which are said to needs to be "controlled".

 

If we catagorise the "egos" there are two types. one

is spiritual ego and another is material ego.which ego

you want to control?

 

Spiritually speaking "ego" is the inspiration of

life.Because of this ego only we have existance.Is

that controllable?Like little ego or more ego.Thats

not possible.

 

Materially speaking "ego" gets developed coz of the

pride on achievements by use of "intellect". Since

intellect is not the target in spirituality this ego

is useless as far as spiritual progress is

considered.Then what is the use of control and

uncontrol.Because this ego is automatically disappered

when the intelligence itself is crossed.

 

In this world its okay,you may have not to expose your

ego, so that it will ruin your image.But in

spiritulity the basic attachments,gains in materials

are useless,who will have ego about them? Even a

beautifull body is worthless what about other things?

It is worth bothering about and powering these

thoughts in mind place,so that they became usual

thoughts?

 

The primary focus should be either deep meditation or

deep devotion.

 

Focus on control on ego or similar gunas is like

keeping cutting the new born leafs of a big banian

tree instead of cutting the roots.We get habitated to

think about the subjects which we allow them to

appear again and again.And they appear again and again

untill we power them.

 

These are never endings.

 

 

 

--- Tatwamasi <tatwamasi wrote:

 

It is popular for many reasons, which include the

desire to take charge of one's journey, to hasten the

process of evolution, or of course the "i" - ego's

need to be in control.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, om_agni_devi <no_reply wrote:

>

> The trap in the method you describe is that it can leave room for

> instant inspirations that originate from that hidden all-knowing

>part of us BUT there is nothing that will guarantee that these

>decisions actually are led by it. They could just as well be done

>primitively, instinctly without any inner guidance, being mere

>consequences or reactions to previous actions.

 

Are there any guarantees? Is primitive entirely incorrect? And how

far back is primitive? Could it not be the time when we were all

more in tune with our True Self? A different Yuga itself? The pace

of our growth will be determined by the tools we have gathered in

our journey.

 

I was told by one of my Gurus, how a very simple woman attained very

high levels of realization simply by singing the notes of the

musical scale. Her sadhna was simply singing, not necesarily

devotionals. What she had "unknowingly" done was to use sound as a

tuning fork for the chakras to trigger the rising of the kundalini.

Was it a "primitive" act? Probably not, and more likely, she came

this life ready in the form of a simple woman, since the process of

enlightenment is actually rather "simple". We, as we progress

through our journey, bring it to our levels and complicate it. Being

ready with that simple, innocent intuitive "knowing" she was ready

to take off in this life.

 

We actually get tangled in the intellectual gymnastics of the

spirituality. The moment we get stop doing, and begin "be - ing" the

path clears out. Till we get there, we have no choice but to remain

entwined in web we weave.

 

Tantric techniques focus on the material, because that is considered

to be the dominating force in the Kali Yuga, and is an approach that

the dominating force of the intellect can identify with. The end of

that tool is also the same, it just takes a little while to work

through all the vasanas etc.

 

Did you manage to experiment with it? When I am able to stay in that

space, my day is totaly taken care of, and flows in total harmony.

It's when I attempt intellectual control that I get in my way!

 

To Uday .. you asked about my experience in some post. Whatever I

write I do so from experience, with my personal spiritual practice,

played out on the stage with my family, friends and the hundreds of

patients I see every year, where I attempt to live the principles I

talk about. To me, texts and theories etc are a jumping board, a

guiding principle not the goal; its the finger pointing at a star,

not the star one is trying to reach.

 

_/\_ Tat twam asi

 

Uma

[Guest guest]

Dear umaji,

 

I didnt ask on which basis your writings are, just

asking to elaborate selective ones if you can.I am

least bothered to dig others authenticity since it is

not my purpose here.

 

I just want to acertain how we can co-relate our

experinces in spiritual progress so that some

meaningfull results can be taken out instead of

just relying on scripts.Since these books are under

influence of individual intellect everything of them

wont have the perfect picture of spirituality.Which

creates confusion in the true sadhakas who dont have

still any proper guidance of sadguru.

 

Since the divine world has communication of

understanding,it needs to be everytime authenticated

by "sadguru", I can do that coz i have a sadguru.

What will others do?

 

Its okay if you dont want to elaborate them.

 

Now your question here====

--- Tatwamasi <tatwamasi wrote:

I was told by one of my Gurus, how a very simple

woman attained very high levels of realization simply

by singing the notes of the musical scale. Was it a

"primitive" act?

 

If you understand the reason of her attainment you

should have not asked the question.or i mean there

wasnt any confusion.

 

What is attainment of realisation ,its actually

exposing the "i amthe sheer pleasure" out of the

other obstacles.

 

Actually we get the occasions of exposing our pleasure

many times in life.

 

Fundamentally when the "chitta","mind place", and

"intellect" stop suddenely we get for say micro

seconds the exposure of the true "ego" the

"satchitaanada", the permanent pleasure of "being ""i

am","aham".

 

This happens many times in our day to day life.The

"aham" when gets exposed we find ourself in plesure

zone for a just microseconds.

 

The intelligence tries to find our the reason how it

happened ,and comes to conclusion the event is the

cause of pleasure,Actually it is not.

 

Somebody attains the pleasure by eating sweets,some by

singing music,some by listening music,some by seeing

beautifull senaries, some by writing

something,Everything which is beyond the capacities of

intellect,the intellect and mind place is stalled.

 

These are the media through which the activities

within are stalled for microseconds and the pleasure

is exposed.

 

Meditation calms down these activities within and

prolongs the pleasure, which ultimately have higher

times of exposure of pleasure.

 

Kundlini what i have observed is side effect of

stalling the activities in mind place,which is a

devotion + thermo-pneumatic activity.

 

It comes up and pushes your collective awareness

towards the sahasrara and their is push pull of our

attachemnts and the push of kundlini.This time mind

activities are absent.

 

Muladhara needs vibrations of chanting mantras and

adnya chakra needs "roopa" the form.

 

Her media was the tuning the fork. It is irrelevent

whether its primitive or not.

 

Do you say acts of Shri Lord Shiva are primitive?