Attaining immortality through revelation or through ritual ?

[Guest guest]

"and right at the age of 37

I realised God."

 

yes. and I am John Paul the second, Pope of Rome.

[Guest guest]

The information that you have provided in your article is not only

illogical but both incorrect and inaccurate. This is how wrong

information is spread in the spiritual circles and drives back any

educated person who would want to study spirituality and religion.

The science which reveals to us ways of knowing ourself and our

creator is one that should be respected and considered the most

serious subject to discuss. Although I initially had decided not to

reply to that rediculous posting, I now feel oblidged to do so, for

the same of the few persons who might fall prey of such inaccuracies.

 

1. "we need to

> know the meaning of word "immortal"."

 

According to the most relyable source of englisch literature, The

Oxford University, there are two words known as "immortal". One of

them is an adjective and the other is a noun.

 

"im-mor-tal/adj

 

1 living for ever; not mortal

2 a) famous for ever; that will be remembered for ever

b) that will last for a long time of for ever, unfading

 

im-mor-tal/n

 

1 person of lasting fame

2 immortal being, esp a god of ancient Greece and Rome"

 

The fact that we are discussing in vague terms religion and

spirituality here, does not automatically give us unlimited power to

distort the language which is the tool of all expression and ultimate

tool of communication. The writer of the previous article demostrated

tremendous lack of understanding of the word immortal.

 

> the soul had rather become immortal.

 

The soul cannot become immortal because it is immortal by nature. It

is our limited spiritual perception that prevents us from realizing

the fact that the soul is eternal, as it is a particle of the very

same God who is the source of all creation. Either you strive to

advance spiritually or not, in the very end the soul will return to

its source because it is the essence of God. And the essence of God

is always eternal and immortal. So the soul cannot become immortal. It

IS immortal.

 

I am using the word immortal as something which lasts and exists

forever, be that of a godly or physical matter.

 

Immortality of the physical body is available to the few Masters of

Yoga, to the Rishis, Siddhas, Naths and Munis. They are masters of

matter and mind and have the power of will to control all the

creation in the name of Lord Shiva. Those Masters cannot be attacked

or killed in their physical body unless they desire to.

 

> While living in a body ... none can become immortal ... one is said

to

> have become immortal after having gained self realisation ...

> enlightenment ... salvation ... moksha.

 

This is wrong. Immortality of the physical body does not necessarily

mean that one has reached the final stage of self-realization. To me,

immortality is very possible goal of yoga and a manifestation of

siddhis.

 

We need to be exact when we are discussing such matters and

inaccuracy leads to misunderstandings.

 

-> ... what value is of 70 to 80 years of human life.

 

Many yogis live in the Himalayas for more than 800 years.

 

 

->There

-> is nothing available on Mother Earth or in the whole of cosmos

which

-> can make the body immortal. Immortality is directly related to our

-> Atman (the self within).

 

Again you are confusing two different terms, immortality of the body

and immortality of the soul.

 

 

>

> Immortality is a concept ... it is not something which is to be

> aspired for. No living being can ever become immortal ...

 

Siddhas have no physical restrictions and it is indeed a unique

accomplishment to become one. Immortality is available to those who

become siddhas, they become etheral, but whenever they wish they can

materialize a physical body. This way they are masters of the

elements (tattwas) and command them to unite or go back to their

source. We can not generalize everything. Something which is good for

one person might be destructive for another. Thats why we cannot say

that striving for immortality or siddhis is not a noble goal, for it

might play an important role to the path towards self realization for

some sadhakas.

 

----

>

> Rituals as of today are completely out of date and not necessary to

be

> performed.

 

Rituals are NOT a "magical way" to please the gods. There is a

scientific explanation behind that. Especially the repetion of

mantras is a tantric practice which I would never interprete as a mere

ritual. Mantras are a way to change the frequency of our own etheric

vibrations and lead our astral and causal bodies to the regions of

the origin of the mantras. Mantras are indeed a way of communion with

the deity.

 

Rituals of course have their own purpose and should not be looked

down. Only those who ignore the esoteric and occult laws that prevail

in rituals can claim that they are useless. I am talking of genuine

rituals here based on inner knowledge.

 

 

I

> followed the path of jnana yoga and succeeded in a much shorter

period

> of time ... I followed the path of Shruti jnana ... the medium of

self

> inquiry ... the right pose of Shavasana ... and right at the age of

37

> I realised God.

 

 

Errrrrrrrrrrr , yes. And as I said I am John Paul the second, Pope of

Rome.

[Guest guest]

Dear Angela/Uma,

I need full thread of this discussion.May any one of you would

oblige me by giving the msg numbers of this discussion ?

Thanks in anticipation

Love to All Sadhak and Sadhikas

Satish

 

 

 

 

 

 

, "Angela" <oiokasti@h...> wrote:

> The information that you have provided in your article is not only

> illogical but both incorrect and inaccurate. This is how wrong

> information is spread in the spiritual circles and drives back any

> educated person who would want to study spirituality and religion.

> The science which reveals to us ways of knowing ourself and our

> creator is one that should be respected and considered the most

> serious subject to discuss. Although I initially had decided not to

> reply to that rediculous posting, I now feel oblidged to do so, for

> the same of the few persons who might fall prey of such

inaccuracies.

>

> 1. "we need to

> > know the meaning of word "immortal"."

>

> According to the most relyable source of englisch literature, The

> Oxford University, there are two words known as "immortal". One of

> them is an adjective and the other is a noun.

>

> "im-mor-tal/adj

>

> 1 living for ever; not mortal

> 2 a) famous for ever; that will be remembered for ever

> b) that will last for a long time of for ever, unfading

>

> im-mor-tal/n

>

> 1 person of lasting fame

> 2 immortal being, esp a god of ancient Greece and Rome"

>

> The fact that we are discussing in vague terms religion and

> spirituality here, does not automatically give us unlimited power

to

> distort the language which is the tool of all expression and

ultimate

> tool of communication. The writer of the previous article

demostrated

> tremendous lack of understanding of the word immortal.

>

> > the soul had rather become immortal.

>

> The soul cannot become immortal because it is immortal by nature.

It

> is our limited spiritual perception that prevents us from

realizing

> the fact that the soul is eternal, as it is a particle of the very

> same God who is the source of all creation. Either you strive to

> advance spiritually or not, in the very end the soul will return to

> its source because it is the essence of God. And the essence of God

> is always eternal and immortal. So the soul cannot become immortal.

It

> IS immortal.

>

> I am using the word immortal as something which lasts and exists

> forever, be that of a godly or physical matter.

>

> Immortality of the physical body is available to the few Masters of

> Yoga, to the Rishis, Siddhas, Naths and Munis. They are masters of

> matter and mind and have the power of will to control all the

> creation in the name of Lord Shiva. Those Masters cannot be

attacked

> or killed in their physical body unless they desire to.

>

> > While living in a body ... none can become immortal ... one is

said

> to

> > have become immortal after having gained self realisation ...

> > enlightenment ... salvation ... moksha.

>

> This is wrong. Immortality of the physical body does not

necessarily

> mean that one has reached the final stage of self-realization. To

me,

> immortality is very possible goal of yoga and a manifestation of

> siddhis.

>

> We need to be exact when we are discussing such matters and

> inaccuracy leads to misunderstandings.

>

> -> ... what value is of 70 to 80 years of human life.

>

> Many yogis live in the Himalayas for more than 800 years.

>

>

> ->There

> -> is nothing available on Mother Earth or in the whole of cosmos

> which

> -> can make the body immortal. Immortality is directly related to

our

> -> Atman (the self within).

>

> Again you are confusing two different terms, immortality of the

body

> and immortality of the soul.

>

>

> >

> > Immortality is a concept ... it is not something which is to be

> > aspired for. No living being can ever become immortal ...

>

> Siddhas have no physical restrictions and it is indeed a unique

> accomplishment to become one. Immortality is available to those who

> become siddhas, they become etheral, but whenever they wish they

can

> materialize a physical body. This way they are masters of the

> elements (tattwas) and command them to unite or go back to their

> source. We can not generalize everything. Something which is good

for

> one person might be destructive for another. Thats why we cannot

say

> that striving for immortality or siddhis is not a noble goal, for

it

> might play an important role to the path towards self realization

for

> some sadhakas.

>

> ----

> >

> > Rituals as of today are completely out of date and not necessary

to

> be

> > performed.

>

> Rituals are NOT a "magical way" to please the gods. There is a

> scientific explanation behind that. Especially the repetion of

> mantras is a tantric practice which I would never interprete as a

mere

> ritual. Mantras are a way to change the frequency of our own

etheric

> vibrations and lead our astral and causal bodies to the regions of

> the origin of the mantras. Mantras are indeed a way of communion

with

> the deity.

>

> Rituals of course have their own purpose and should not be looked

> down. Only those who ignore the esoteric and occult laws that

prevail

> in rituals can claim that they are useless. I am talking of genuine

> rituals here based on inner knowledge.

>

>

> I

> > followed the path of jnana yoga and succeeded in a much shorter

> period

> > of time ... I followed the path of Shruti jnana ... the medium of

> self

> > inquiry ... the right pose of Shavasana ... and right at the age

of

> 37

> > I realised God.

>

>

> Errrrrrrrrrrr , yes. And as I said I am John Paul the second, Pope

of

> Rome.

[Guest guest]

Dear Satish,

 

the posting you are looking for is number 5998.

 

On the groups website here:

 

/message/5998

[Guest guest]

Angela,

 

Replying for the sake of replying ... you do not seem to understand

even the basic fundamentals of life ... science is only meant to

support the physical part of us ... the living human being. Anything

we call as the inner self is beyond the comprehension of the physical

being ... our soul (the Atman within) can only be felt ... but never

seen ... the study of Atman (the soul within) cannot be understood

using the senses and the mind ... it is beyond the comprehension of

the senses and the mind.

 

Like a true sage we need to awaken our kundalini by practising

celibacy for a continuous period of 12 years ... it is only then one

can realise the fundamental truth ... the truth of our inner being.

 

You need not worry about people getting carried away by my experiences

.... every human being has the power to discriminate between the wrong

and the right. We need not be the judge of the situation. Standing on

the fourth floor of the Empire State building we cannot expect to have

the full view of the New York. We need to climb up to the top story.

 

Standing in a well we cannot fathom the depths of the cosmic world ...

the world within us. Like Advaita Vedanta ... the truth is only one

.... the definition of immortality can only be one ... the soul is

immortal ... is an absolute truth. No denying it. Yet, to free itself

from the dross within ... it needs to manifest 8.4 million lives (the

total cosmic journey of 96.4 million years) before the soul gets

liberated ... and after the soul is liberated ... we human beings call

one as become immortal ... meaning that the soul is not required to

manifest again ... and has become forever free from the cycle of birth

and death (it need not take a body again). This is the stage we call

as moksha (salvation).

 

No human being can ever live for more than 300 years ... that is the

maximum age one can prolong his life up to ... do not talk of miracles

.... do not talk of something you have not seen yourself ... talk of

the practical aspect of life ... I have within my power today to

extend my body up to 150 years approximately ... but I shall not do

that. It is not required ... another 20 more years and I shall leave

the body. The purpose of his body would be over by then.

 

How is it that I can increase my age ... it is so. The heart of a

human being when one normally breathes beats 72 times per minute. As

in the Sacred Scriptures the average life of a person is considered as

hundred years. The maximum one can reduce the heart beats is 25 per

minute ... the moment I realised God ... I decreased my heartbeat from

72 to 29 ... while coming up to 27 ... I felt giddiness ... something

within told me that do not reduce it beyond 24 for at 24 the heart

will fail beating ... this is the limit fixed by God. Consult any

doctor and he shall tell you the truth ... only if he knows one. Till

date there has not been a single human on Mother Earth whose heart

beat lower than 24 beats per minute and one still lived.

 

A normal human being who is supposed to live for hundred years if he

is able to reduce the beats from 72 to 25 then the life can at the

most be proportionately increased by 200 years (100*72/24) ...

explaining it in broad terms ... the heart of a normal human being who

shall live for hundred years will beat at the rate of 72. If we reduce

the frequency of the beating ... the life is proportionately

increased. No person who has reached the stage of Nirvikalpa samadhi

can control his body ... the age factor!

 

You are talking of mantras ... do you even understand what a mantra

is! Do not quote bookish knowledge "the whole Internet ... the

newsgroups are full of them". I speak from personal experience ... I

have passed through everything I say or do. I have made the posting

only for the reason that some aspirants of spirituality ... the true

seekers may gain from it ... I always feel hungry for queries ... the

genuine ones ... I wish to prolong the discussion as long as one has

the capability to discuss logically.

 

 

Vijay Kumar ...

http://www.godrealized.com/

----

 

PS. I am out of stn for next 3 days ... shall pick up on return.

[Guest guest]

I received this post directly to my e-mail address:

 

I read your article posted on , Subject:

Attaining immortality through revelation or through ritual ?. I am

extremly impressed by your thoughts. Thanks for sharing your your

views on immortality. Can you share some more views with others? Any

way thanks once again for such a wonderful article.

 

katu jo

------------------------------

 

katu jo... Do send me queries so that I respond on subjects dear to

the all nembers of the group

 

Vijay Kumar ...

http://www.godrealized.com/

[Guest guest]

>... science is only meant to

> support the physical part of us ... the living human being. Anything

> we call as the inner self is beyond the comprehension of the

physical

> being ...

 

Do you really know the meaning of the word science??? Obviously not.

You seem to be inventing your own definitions of words just like the

immortal one. You are ignoring that one of the definitions of science

are these:

 

-Methodological activity, discipline, or study

 

-An activity that appears to require study and method

 

-The observation, identification, description, experimental

investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.

 

All phenomena can be studied and observed extensively, the physical

ones and the spiritual ones as well. If we do not approach

spirituality with an objective mind free from prejudices, then we are

bound to remain in ignorance. Science is necessary for any person

like me who does not want to live in fantasies or illusions. That is

why the knowledge of language and a scientific and justified

discussion is required when one is about to reason and study

SPIRITUALITY. Science is NOT meant to study only the physical

phenomena, in the same way we can study the spiritual ones as well.

Through the meditational experiments in the laboratory of our own

etherical, astral and mental bodies.

 

 

 

THOSE WHO REJECT THE SCIENIFIC APROACH TOWARDS SPIRITUALITY AND

RELIGION ARE THE ONES, WHO ARE TRYING TO DECEIVE CREDULOUS AND NAIVE

HUMANS WITH A WEAK MIND.

 

 

 

> the study of Atman (the soul within) cannot be understood

> using the senses and the mind ... it is beyond the comprehension of

> the senses and the mind.

 

The only way to realize the soul is to realize the mind.

 

And that is known to all serious yogis and mystics. This is not a

dogma which I have invented myself. This is the essence of yoga and

tantra, taught by all great masters. When the mind starts to realize

itself, it starts to realize its source which is the soul. You cannot

reject the mind. It is the only tool at our disposal for spiritual

developement. Those who claim to be able to feel the soul, are either

the greatest Avatars or (most likely) mere liars..

 

 

 

> Like a true sage we need to awaken our kundalini by practising

> celibacy for a continuous period of 12 years ... it is only then one

> can realise the fundamental truth ... the truth of our inner being.

>

 

Celibacy without proper pranayama can cause much more harm than a

life of normal sexual activity. It can cause imbalance of the sexual

energies and result into depression. You seem to be inventing your

own dogmas, but I immediately reject the formula of "12 years

celibacy=kundalini awakening". Which is the source of this rule that

you invented?? We cannot generalize things, each person is unique.

Its person has a unique background of past lives, samskaras, karmas,

and mind-setup. What one person needs to awaken his kundalini, would

be of no use to someother person.

 

 

 

 

Standing

on

> the fourth floor of the Empire State building we cannot expect to

have

> the full view of the New York. We need to climb up to the top story.

>

> Standing in a well we cannot fathom the depths of the cosmic world .

...

> the world within us.

 

 

That is definetely NOT an argument nor a serious example. Do you

think you are talking to children of kindergarden?

 

 

 

> No human being can ever live for more than 300 years ... that is the

> maximum age one can prolong his life up to ... do not talk of

miracles

> ... do not talk of something you have not seen yourself ...

 

I have reasons to trust people who have seen these themselves.

Because I do have respect for great avatars such as Paramhansa

Yogananda who mentions Babaji living in the himalayas for many

centuries still in his body. I have good reasons to trust truly

enlightened souls such as Vivekananda and geniouses such as Swami

Satyananda who also support the same views. On the other hand I have

no reason to believe a single person who comes forth to claim god

realization which is itself a proof of his ignorance. No godrealized

soul will claim and reveal his enlightment.

 

 

> I have within my power today to

> extend my body up to 150 years approximately ...

 

Then your power is very limited. Strange, for a god-realized person

to be so weak in power.... For Gods powers are unlimited and endless..

..

[Guest guest]

Dialogues are significant tools for spiritual growth if one monitors

the motivation and emotion behind the responses.

 

Over the years we have had this satsangh, we have had several

members say that they are self-realized, or have attained "samadhi"

etc . Some claim their satsanghs are for self-realized people!!

 

Whether one is or not, is to be determined by the seekers. Each will

be attracted to their levels of consciouness. The power

of "Hindusim" is that no one path is forced on any one. Where they

need to be at a present moment, is literally left to

the "forces"; "the invisible hand" to "take seekers" according to

their karmic journey, led by the powers of attraction and

attachment. One of the key ingredient of those who have attained a

certain levels of evolution is their behavior. Actions and behavior

speak volumes more than words can ever do.

 

Let's keep this discussion centered on information, and viewpoints,

recognizing that "the world is only as we are" - our world view is

determined by our baggage of experiences, spiritual and material. As

I have pointed out before, the net is in fact abound with spiritual

web sites, and it is important to be decerning about the

information. Everyone has the right to express their views, whether

we agree with it or not. At the same time, everyone has the

responsibility to present arguments/information to make sure that

different views are presented and members can seive through the it

all and gather the essence.

 

Interestingly enough, I have often invited sadhaks who feel they are

very advanced to express their views on the topics that come up for

discussion here, however many want unconditional acceptance of what

is being said and are not comfortable with discussion and debate.

They exclusively prefer their own forum where they have an audience

to speak TO instead of speaking With. They forget that TRUTH (unless

it is veiled by Maya) CAN stand the test of discusion.

 

All TRUTH can be presented at every level of understanding, if so

desired and we are blessed with many such individuals among us here

who are testimony to this.

 

Science may not have the current capability/tools to study ALL

spiritual phenomenon, but that is not because of its limitation,

rather its due to OUR limited knowledge of science and related

tools. In fact all phenomenon can be proven if we had appropriate

measurement tools and a complete database of information.

 

I invite all members to particiapte in this lively discussion in a

healthy manner.

 

_/\_ tat twam asi

 

Uma

 

PS. I have not been able to participate personally due to several

things going on in my world at present, which includes a sick

friend, son leaving for college, and a total revamping of my worldly

life. Everytime I feel I am ready to focus onmy interests, karma

drags me away!! Be that as it may, I am around, albeit briefly, and

look forward to hearing from everyone.

[Guest guest]

Uma, I agree with you, this was a nice posting. But I disagree with

one point:

 

>They forget that TRUTH (unless

> it is veiled by Maya) CAN stand the test of discusion.

 

Truth can be discussed, but can truth be debated when there is no

common platform of communication?

 

I have said it a thousand times and I will say it a million times more

that there can be no discussion unless we speak the same language. I

often find the english language being abused, we must stick to some

standards in order to make a communication possible.

 

I dont consider myself an advanced sadhaka, but it feels rediculous

when someone claims for example that there is no kundalini and

preaches his divine dogmas. (oh yes I have heard that too).

 

We cannot hide behind our little finger. Most major and serious

schools of yoga teach the same principles. It is not difficult to

perceive them and use them as the base of discussion. Truth is simple.

 

We are given the standards of the english language and the yogic

terminology, the ones who cannot stick to them must have other motives

than promoting truth.

[Guest guest]

All members of the forum

 

It seems my language has been curt and blunt. I profusely apolozise

if someone has felt hurt. The intention has never been that.

 

I would really miss the discussion for the coming 3~5 days and shall

be posting replies to all queries immediately after my return,

 

I only more and more members could participate/put their views ... I

promise to make it a really lively discussion!

 

Vijay Kumar

http://www.godrealized.com/