Guest guest Posted March 25, 2002 Report Share Posted March 25, 2002 Jaya Sri Radhey! The great Rasik Saint Sri Lilasuka Bilva mangala Thakur said: "zaivAvayam na khalu tatra vicAraNIyam paGcAkSarI japa parAn itarAM tadhApi ceto madIya matasI kusumAvabhAsaM smerAnanam smarati gopa vadhU kizoraM" (Sri Krishna Karnamritam 2.24) Meaning- I have always belonged to the 'Shaiva Sect' and I have been sincerely CHANTING the "Shiva Pancaakshari Mantra", (that is "Om Namah Shivaaya") all along. But I have NO IDEA WHY this Young Sweetheart of Gopis is following me and my heart is also enjoying the REMEMBERENCE of His smiling, tender Blue face!!! " Jaya Sri Radhey! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2002 Report Share Posted March 25, 2002 Om Sankarrukku Again, with all due respect, allow me to point out that it was you yourself that introduced Ishtadevata, the gunas, and use the term `nirguna' in the post. Allow me also address the tone of your post. Just as there are 3 gunas, so, too, do your posts have 3 tones. Unfortunately, none of the tones are sattvic. When you are posting in an attempt to present yourself as an pundit, you cite many sources in an effort to bolster your opinions and your tone is one of condescension and haughtiness with an underlying hint of desperation about being accepted. When you are replying to those who agree with you, your tone is unctuous, fawning, obsequious, almost servile. And when you are replying to those who refute the material you present as factual or who disagree with your opinion, your tone is hostile, rude and dismissive. All 3 of these tones has fear as its basis. An defensive ego that feels it has nothing on which to focus is the cause of fear. You demean only yourself with these tones. You also cheapen the value of whatever it is that you are attempting to present. Please try to act more with your authentic voice without the posturing. I'm sure your posts would be more informative and much better received. And you would be happier. You like to quote Swami Sivananda. Please allow me also to quote Swami Sivananda on fear: "Fear is the beginning of all evil. From fear proceeds misfortune. The fears of a coward expose him dangers. "Constant fear saps your vitality, shakes confidence, and destroys your ability. It makes you powerless. It is an enemy of your success. "What paralysis is to the physical body, so it fear to the mind. It paralyzes the mind and makes you powerless. Fear is the most destructive emotion. It breaks down the nervous system and undermines your health. "Fear in all its different phases is the greatest enemy of man. It has destroyed the happiness and efficiency of man. It has made more men cowards, more people failures. "Fear is a great human curse. Fear blights many lives, makes people unhappy and unsuccessful. Fear is a negative thought. Fear is your worst enemy. "Raga or attachment is the long-standing association of fear. Attachment is the cause of fear. Attachment to objects causes fear. Attachment to name and fame causes fear. Attachment to women and money causes fear. Any attachment is the womb of terrible fear. "He does not fear who has renounced everything, who perceives the Atman in all. If there is no Raga, there is no fear. "Drowning waves of fear may at times rush down upon us. We may lose mental balance for a while. We may be over-sensitive and agitated. [sound familiar?] "Sit for a while. Reflect well. Introspect. All imaginary fears will take to their heels. They will dwindle into an airy nothingness. " Put the seeds of courage in your heart. Develop your will-power. Develop mental power of endurance. Be courageous and patient. Have courage and manly character. "Remember the saints and their virtuous deeds. Live in the company of sages and Yogins. Meditate on the fearless Atman. "God bestows perfect security on His devotees and removes all sorts of fears. I'm sure that if you followed these prescriptions you would be much happier and your posts would be more readable. Incidentally, Swami Vishnu and Swami Vishnu-devananda practiced the Yoga of Synthesis. They did not bind themselves slavishly to one rigid path. For them, Paths are many, Truth is One. At the moment of his death, Swami Sivananda is reported to have said just 2 words, "Remember. Forget." This meant "Remember God. Forget the rest." Someday, you will be able to do the same. Om Aim Hreem Kleem Chamundaya Viche Namaha Omprem , sankarrukku <no_reply> wrote: > Sri Omprem, > > Your message is has no relevance to the subject matter that is Ishta > Devata. Where did I talk about mantras? How come you never thought of > replying to the query about Ishta devata? Both Swami Sivananda and > Swami Vishnudevananda (page 62 of his book Meditation and mantras) > have given excellent exposition on Ishta Devata. > > About Saguna Mantras and Nirguna mantras Swami Vishnudevananda has > defined Nirguna mantras thus > > "As Saguna mantras have form, Nirguna mantras are without forms. > There are no deities or personalized aspect of God to be invoked. > Rather one uses the abstract mantras and Vedantic formulas to assert > identification with all of creation." > > This is a vedantins point of view. When we are discussing Ishta > Devata why are you talking abut Nirguna mantras. All Ishtadevatas > have forms. All Mantras in Mantra Sashthra are saguna. > > You have quoted the KAALI Mantra from Swami Vishnu Devananda's book. > > There are nine forms of MAA KAALI. There are more than hundred > mantras of MAA KAALI. > > About MAA KAALI, Bagavan Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa says in his > Gospel about Brahman and Kali > > " The primordial power is ever at play. She is creating, preserving, > and destroying in play, as it were. This power is called Kali. Kali > is verily Brahman, and Brahman is verily Kali. It is one and the same > reality. When think of it is inactive, that is to say, not engaged in > the acts of creation, preservation and destruction, then we call it > Brahman. But when it engages in these activities, then we call it > Kali or Sakthi. The reality is one and the same: the difference in > name and form." > > We find from the life and works of Swami Vivekananda and many of the > disciples of Bagavan Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, that even in the > eyes of many Vedantins Kali is Brahman. > > There are six systems of philosophy in Hinduism. There are many > margas/Yogas. All of them do not aim at the Brahman. If you have read > Swami Sivananda you will know about the different yogas and different > goals. > > The different Goals are > > 1. Realizing the Brahman - Brahma Sutras > 2. Everlasting happiness and Moksha or Liberation from the cycle of > rebirths. - Ramayana & Mahabharata. > 3. Merging with god. > 4. Perfection of man in order to become the divine. > 5. Sahaja and Samarasa - Avadhuta Gita > 6. Union of Jivatma and Paramatma - Yoga Vishishta. > 7. Saktha- The aspirant thinks that the world is identical with the > Divine mother. He moves about thinking his own form to be the form of > the divine mother and thus beholds oneness everywhere. He also feels > that the divine mother is identical with Para Brahman. > > All definitions except Avadhuta gita from Swami Sivananda's books. > > Swami Sivananda has also written a book called Tantra Yoga, Nada yoga > and Kriya Yoga. Swami Sivananda had knowledge of all the margas. But > he talks of Brahman only in the margas in which it is appropriate. > > You seem to believe that only Vedanta is Hinduism and you look at > Bhakthi, Tantra and everything else only from the Vedantin's point of > view. > > As Tatwamasi rightly put it > > " When we look at Bhakti aspects of sadhna with the eyes of a > vedantin, total > confusion ensues unless one has learnt to bridge that apparent gap. > This may explain the typical "fights" between Bhaktas who are "in > love" and Vedantins who are attempting to put things into a box with > logical rules. " > > > Jai MAA KAALI !!! > > P.S: I would advise you to confine your messages to Hatha yoga and > Vedanta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2002 Report Share Posted March 26, 2002 Om Sankarrukku Again, with all due respect, allow me to point out that it was you yourself that introduced Ishtadevata, the gunas, and use the term `nirguna' in the post. Allow me also address the tone of your post. Just as there are 3 gunas, so, too, do your posts have 3 tones. When you are posting in an attempt to present yourself as an pundit, you cite many sources in an effort to bolster your opinions and your tone is one of condescension, haughtiness and pomposity. The Bhagavad Gita describes the true pandit as one 'whose undertakings are all devoid of desires and purposes, and whose actions have been burnt by the Fire-of-Knowledge' (IV/19). Unfortunately, your posts done not meet these criteria. When you are replying to those who agree with you, your tone is unctuous, fawning, obsequious, almost servile. And when you are replying to those who refute the material you present as factual or who disagree with your opinion, your tone is hostile, rude and dismissive. All 3 of these tones has fear as its basis. An defensive ego that has nothing on which to focus is the cause of fear. You demean only yourself with these tones. You also cheapen the value of whatever it is that you are attempting to present. Please try to act more with your authentic voice without the posturing. I'm sure your posts would be more informative and much better received. And you would be happier. You like to quote Swami Sivananda. Please allow me also to quote Swami Sivananda on fear: "Fear is the beginning of all evil. From fear proceeds misfortune. The fears of a coward expose him dangers. "Constant fear saps your vitality, shakes confidence, and destroys your ability. It makes you powerless. It is an enemy of your success. "What paralysis is to the physical body, so it fear to the mind. It paralyzes the mind and makes you powerless. Fear is the most destructive emotion. It breaks down the nervous system and undermines your health. "Fear in all its different phases is the greatest enemy of man. It has destroyed the happiness and efficiency of man. It has made more men cowards, more people failures. "Fear is a great human curse. Fear blights many lives, makes people unhappy and unsuccessful. Fear is a negative thought. Fear is your worst enemy. "Raga or attachment is the long-standing association of fear. Attachment is the cause of fear. Attachment to objects causes fear. Attachment to name and fame causes fear. Attachment to women and money causes fear. Any attachment is the womb of terrible fear. "He does not fear who has renounced everything, who perceives the Atman in all. If there is no Raga, there is no fear. "Drowning waves of fear may at times rush down upon us. We may lose mental balance for a while. We may be over-sensitive and agitated. [sound familiar?] "Sit for a while. Reflect well. Introspect. All imaginary fears will take to their heels. They will dwindle into an airy nothingness. " Put the seeds of courage in your heart. Develop your will-power. Develop mental power of endurance. Be courageous and patient. Have courage and manly character. "Remember the saints and their virtuous deeds. Live in the company of sages and Yogins. Meditate on the fearless Atman. "God bestows perfect security on His devotees and removes all sorts of fears. I'm sure that if you followed these prescriptions you would be much happier and your posts would be more readable. Incidentally, Swami Vishnu and Swami Vishnu-devananda practiced the Yoga of Synthesis. They did not bind themselves slavishly to one rigid path. For them, Paths are many, Truth is One. At the moment of his death, Swami Sivananda is reported to have said just 2 words, "Remember. Forget." This meant "Remember God. Forget the rest." Someday, you will be able to do the same. Om Aim Hreem Kleem Chamundaya Viche Namaha Omprem , sankarrukku <no_reply> wrote: > Sri Omprem, > > Your message is has no relevance to the subject matter that is Ishta > Devata. Where did I talk about mantras? How come you never thought of > replying to the query about Ishta devata? Both Swami Sivananda and > Swami Vishnudevananda (page 62 of his book Meditation and mantras) > have given excellent exposition on Ishta Devata. > > About Saguna Mantras and Nirguna mantras Swami Vishnudevananda has > defined Nirguna mantras thus > > "As Saguna mantras have form, Nirguna mantras are without forms. > There are no deities or personalized aspect of God to be invoked. > Rather one uses the abstract mantras and Vedantic formulas to assert > identification with all of creation." > > This is a vedantins point of view. When we are discussing Ishta > Devata why are you talking abut Nirguna mantras. All Ishtadevatas > have forms. All Mantras in Mantra Sashthra are saguna. > > You have quoted the KAALI Mantra from Swami Vishnu Devananda's book. > > There are nine forms of MAA KAALI. There are more than hundred > mantras of MAA KAALI. > > About MAA KAALI, Bagavan Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa says in his > Gospel about Brahman and Kali > > " The primordial power is ever at play. She is creating, preserving, > and destroying in play, as it were. This power is called Kali. Kali > is verily Brahman, and Brahman is verily Kali. It is one and the same > reality. When think of it is inactive, that is to say, not engaged in > the acts of creation, preservation and destruction, then we call it > Brahman. But when it engages in these activities, then we call it > Kali or Sakthi. The reality is one and the same: the difference in > name and form." > > We find from the life and works of Swami Vivekananda and many of the > disciples of Bagavan Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, that even in the > eyes of many Vedantins Kali is Brahman. > > There are six systems of philosophy in Hinduism. There are many > margas/Yogas. All of them do not aim at the Brahman. If you have read > Swami Sivananda you will know about the different yogas and different > goals. > > The different Goals are > > 1. Realizing the Brahman - Brahma Sutras > 2. Everlasting happiness and Moksha or Liberation from the cycle of > rebirths. - Ramayana & Mahabharata. > 3. Merging with god. > 4. Perfection of man in order to become the divine. > 5. Sahaja and Samarasa - Avadhuta Gita > 6. Union of Jivatma and Paramatma - Yoga Vishishta. > 7. Saktha- The aspirant thinks that the world is identical with the > Divine mother. He moves about thinking his own form to be the form of > the divine mother and thus beholds oneness everywhere. He also feels > that the divine mother is identical with Para Brahman. > > All definitions except Avadhuta gita from Swami Sivananda's books. > > Swami Sivananda has also written a book called Tantra Yoga, Nada yoga > and Kriya Yoga. Swami Sivananda had knowledge of all the margas. But > he talks of Brahman only in the margas in which it is appropriate. > > You seem to believe that only Vedanta is Hinduism and you look at > Bhakthi, Tantra and everything else only from the Vedantin's point of > view. > > As Tatwamasi rightly put it > > " When we look at Bhakti aspects of sadhna with the eyes of a > vedantin, total > confusion ensues unless one has learnt to bridge that apparent gap. > This may explain the typical "fights" between Bhaktas who are "in > love" and Vedantins who are attempting to put things into a box with > logical rules. " > > > Jai MAA KAALI !!! > > P.S: I would advise you to confine your messages to Hatha yoga and > Vedanta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2002 Report Share Posted March 26, 2002 I remember a friend about ten years ago who saw someone (i forget who) who was able to find their Isthadevata. His was Ganesha. Is there a particular way to find ones Isthadevata? Berhaps through jyotish? What is the means? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2002 Report Share Posted March 26, 2002 Respected members, Thank you all so much for your posts on this topic. I am finding all of them very infomative. I wonder, though, why it seems that messages have gotten a little bit combative, especially when we are talking about something so personal and individual. I wanted to start the topic simply because I wanted others' experiences and input; I didn't want to start a battle about right/wrong. I am curious to know how everyone learned about different Goddesses/Gods. Did you read a book, or just learn from experience? With much love, Erica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2002 Report Share Posted March 26, 2002 Yes, I've also seen this. Also, I wish differences could be overlooked. As my wife told me once, it's very hard to read the expression on an email and therefore since human speech is half gesture and tone of voice only poet laureates can successfully represent their real meaning over the net. Please everyone accept that differences on the net can be even more maya than in regular life. - sugarandbrine Tuesday, March 26, 2002 1:34 PM Re: Ishta Devata Respected members, Thank you all so much for your posts on this topic. I am finding all of them very infomative. I wonder, though, why it seems that messages have gotten a little bit combative, especially when we are talking about something so personal and individual. I wanted to start the topic simply because I wanted others' experiences and input; I didn't want to start a battle about right/wrong. I am curious to know how everyone learned about different Goddesses/Gods. Did you read a book, or just learn from experience? With much love, Erica Sponsor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2002 Report Share Posted March 26, 2002 Sri Omprem "condescension, haughtiness and pomposity, unctuous, fawning, obsequious, almost servile, hostile, rude and dismissive " These are the choice invectives you have used in your message about me. You had earlier found fault with my grammar and advised me, that it is much better, much more interesting and more enlightening to meditate with Mantras rather than talking about them? However all this cannot change the fact that I was only responding to a members query about Ishta Devata and did not mention anything about Mantras. So your message had no relevance to the subject of Ishta Devata. May be you were preparing me for this kind of message when you quoted Swami Sivananda in one of your earlier messages ," Bear insult. Bear Injury. This is the highest sadhana. Bear insult. Bear injury. This is the highest Yoga." Your general attitude is seen from the statement in one of your messages "If Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's Guru was of the Saraswati lineage that's more than good enough for me" I have heard about your driving away some members earlier. But you cannot drive me away by your bullying attitude. You cannot cow down everyone. Civilized behavior is often mistaken for cowardice. Sankar , omprem <no_reply> wrote: > Om Sankarrukku > > Again, with all due respect, allow me to point out that it was you > yourself that introduced Ishtadevata, the gunas, and use the term > `nirguna' in the post. > > Allow me also address the tone of your post. Just as there are 3 > gunas, so, too, do your posts have 3 tones. > > When you are posting in an attempt to present yourself as an > pundit, you cite many sources in an effort to bolster your opinions > and your tone is one of condescension, haughtiness and > pomposity. > > The Bhagavad Gita describes the true pandit as one 'whose > undertakings are all devoid of desires and purposes, and whose > actions have been burnt by the Fire-of-Knowledge' (IV/19). > Unfortunately, your posts done not meet these criteria. > > When you are replying to those who agree with you, your tone is > unctuous, fawning, obsequious, almost servile. > > And when you are replying to those who refute the material you > present as factual or who disagree with your opinion, your tone > is hostile, rude and dismissive. > > All 3 of these tones has fear as its basis. An defensive ego that > has nothing on which to focus is the cause of fear. > > You demean only yourself with these tones. You also cheapen > the value of whatever it is that you are attempting to present. > Please try to act more with your authentic voice without the > posturing. I'm sure your posts would be more informative and > much better received. And you would be happier. > > You like to quote Swami Sivananda. Please allow me also to > quote Swami Sivananda on fear: > > "Fear is the beginning of all evil. From fear proceeds misfortune. > The fears of a coward expose him dangers. > > "Constant fear saps your vitality, shakes confidence, and > destroys your ability. It makes you powerless. It is an enemy of > your success. > > "What paralysis is to the physical body, so it fear to the mind. It > paralyzes the mind and makes you powerless. Fear is the most > destructive emotion. It breaks down the nervous system and > undermines your health. > > "Fear in all its different phases is the greatest enemy of man. It > has destroyed the happiness and efficiency of man. It has made > more men cowards, more people failures. > > "Fear is a great human curse. Fear blights many lives, makes > people unhappy and unsuccessful. Fear is a negative thought. > Fear is your worst enemy. > > "Raga or attachment is the long-standing association of fear. > Attachment is the cause of fear. Attachment to objects causes > fear. Attachment to name and fame causes fear. Attachment to > women and money causes fear. Any attachment is the womb of > terrible fear. > > "He does not fear who has renounced everything, who perceives > the Atman in all. If there is no Raga, there is no fear. > > "Drowning waves of fear may at times rush down upon us. We > may lose mental balance for a while. We may be over-sensitive > and agitated. [sound familiar?] > > "Sit for a while. Reflect well. Introspect. All imaginary fears will > take to their heels. They will dwindle into an airy nothingness. > > " Put the seeds of courage in your heart. Develop your will-power. > Develop mental power of endurance. Be courageous and > patient. Have courage and manly character. > > "Remember the saints and their virtuous deeds. Live in the > company of sages and Yogins. Meditate on the fearless Atman. > > "God bestows perfect security on His devotees and removes all > sorts of fears. > > I'm sure that if you followed these prescriptions you would be > much happier and your posts would be more readable. > > Incidentally, Swami Vishnu and Swami Vishnu-devananda > practiced the Yoga of Synthesis. They did not bind themselves > slavishly to one rigid path. For them, Paths are many, Truth is > One. > > At the moment of his death, Swami Sivananda is reported to > have said just 2 words, "Remember. Forget." This meant > "Remember God. Forget the rest." > > Someday, you will be able to do the same. > > > Om Aim Hreem Kleem Chamundaya Viche Namaha > > Omprem > > > > , sankarrukku <no_reply> wrote: > > Sri Omprem, > > > > Your message is has no relevance to the subject matter that is > Ishta > > Devata. Where did I talk about mantras? How come you never > thought of > > replying to the query about Ishta devata? Both Swami > Sivananda and > > Swami Vishnudevananda (page 62 of his book Meditation and > mantras) > > have given excellent exposition on Ishta Devata. > > > > About Saguna Mantras and Nirguna mantras Swami > Vishnudevananda has > > defined Nirguna mantras thus > > > > "As Saguna mantras have form, Nirguna mantras are without > forms. > > There are no deities or personalized aspect of God to be > invoked. > > Rather one uses the abstract mantras and Vedantic formulas > to assert > > identification with all of creation." > > > > This is a vedantins point of view. When we are discussing > Ishta > > Devata why are you talking abut Nirguna mantras. All > Ishtadevatas > > have forms. All Mantras in Mantra Sashthra are saguna. > > > > You have quoted the KAALI Mantra from Swami Vishnu > Devananda's book. > > > > There are nine forms of MAA KAALI. There are more than > hundred > > mantras of MAA KAALI. > > > > About MAA KAALI, Bagavan Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa > says in his > > Gospel about Brahman and Kali > > > > " The primordial power is ever at play. She is creating, > preserving, > > and destroying in play, as it were. This power is called Kali. > Kali > > is verily Brahman, and Brahman is verily Kali. It is one and the > same > > reality. When think of it is inactive, that is to say, not engaged in > > the acts of creation, preservation and destruction, then we call > it > > Brahman. But when it engages in these activities, then we call > it > > Kali or Sakthi. The reality is one and the same: the difference in > > name and form." > > > > We find from the life and works of Swami Vivekananda and > many of the > > disciples of Bagavan Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, that > even in the > > eyes of many Vedantins Kali is Brahman. > > > > There are six systems of philosophy in Hinduism. There are > many > > margas/Yogas. All of them do not aim at the Brahman. If you > have read > > Swami Sivananda you will know about the different yogas and > different > > goals. > > > > The different Goals are > > > > 1. Realizing the Brahman - Brahma Sutras > > 2. Everlasting happiness and Moksha or Liberation from the > cycle of > > rebirths. - Ramayana & Mahabharata. > > 3. Merging with god. > > 4. Perfection of man in order to become the divine. > > 5. Sahaja and Samarasa - Avadhuta Gita > > 6. Union of Jivatma and Paramatma - Yoga Vishishta. > > 7. Saktha- The aspirant thinks that the world is identical with > the > > Divine mother. He moves about thinking his own form to be the > form of > > the divine mother and thus beholds oneness everywhere. He > also feels > > that the divine mother is identical with Para Brahman. > > > > All definitions except Avadhuta gita from Swami Sivananda's > books. > > > > Swami Sivananda has also written a book called Tantra Yoga, > Nada yoga > > and Kriya Yoga. Swami Sivananda had knowledge of all the > margas. But > > he talks of Brahman only in the margas in which it is > appropriate. > > > > You seem to believe that only Vedanta is Hinduism and you > look at > > Bhakthi, Tantra and everything else only from the Vedantin's > point of > > view. > > > > As Tatwamasi rightly put it > > > > " When we look at Bhakti aspects of sadhna with the eyes of a > > vedantin, total > > confusion ensues unless one has learnt to bridge that > apparent gap. > > This may explain the typical "fights" between Bhaktas who are > "in > > love" and Vedantins who are attempting to put things into a box > with > > logical rules. " > > > > > > Jai MAA KAALI !!! > > > > P.S: I would advise you to confine your messages to Hatha > yoga and > > Vedanta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2002 Report Share Posted March 26, 2002 Respected sankarrukku, I respect your wordings. I am hearing this for the second time in my life. God Bless you. Please dont leave this place. I remember Jyotishguru uttered the same feelings when people insulted him. And I know it is only possible for the Higher Souls Like YOU. As you are a worshipper of Ma Kali you are a blessed soul. Anyone who will try to insult will be punished by your Ishta you have nothing to do for it. covengem , sankarrukku <no_reply> wrote: > Sri Omprem > > "condescension, haughtiness and pomposity, unctuous, fawning, > obsequious, almost servile, hostile, rude and dismissive " > > These are the choice invectives you have used in your message about > me. > You had earlier found fault with my grammar and advised me, that it > is much better, much more interesting and more enlightening to > meditate with Mantras rather than talking about them? > > However all this cannot change the fact that I was only responding to > a members query about Ishta Devata and did not mention anything about > Mantras. So your message had no relevance to the subject of Ishta > Devata. > > May be you were preparing me for this kind of message when you quoted > Swami Sivananda in one of your earlier messages > > ," Bear insult. Bear Injury. This is the highest sadhana. Bear > insult. Bear injury. This is the highest Yoga." > > Your general attitude is seen from the statement in one of your > messages > > "If Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's Guru was of the Saraswati lineage > that's more than good enough for me" > > I have heard about your driving away some members earlier. But you > cannot drive me away by your bullying attitude. You cannot cow down > everyone. Civilized behavior is often mistaken for cowardice. > > > Sankar > > > > , omprem <no_reply> wrote: > > Om Sankarrukku > > > > Again, with all due respect, allow me to point out that it was you > > yourself that introduced Ishtadevata, the gunas, and use the term > > `nirguna' in the post. > > > > Allow me also address the tone of your post. Just as there are 3 > > gunas, so, too, do your posts have 3 tones. > > > > When you are posting in an attempt to present yourself as an > > pundit, you cite many sources in an effort to bolster your opinions > > and your tone is one of condescension, haughtiness and > > pomposity. > > > > The Bhagavad Gita describes the true pandit as one 'whose > > undertakings are all devoid of desires and purposes, and whose > > actions have been burnt by the Fire-of-Knowledge' (IV/19). > > Unfortunately, your posts done not meet these criteria. > > > > When you are replying to those who agree with you, your tone is > > unctuous, fawning, obsequious, almost servile. > > > > And when you are replying to those who refute the material you > > present as factual or who disagree with your opinion, your tone > > is hostile, rude and dismissive. > > > > All 3 of these tones has fear as its basis. An defensive ego that > > has nothing on which to focus is the cause of fear. > > > > You demean only yourself with these tones. You also cheapen > > the value of whatever it is that you are attempting to present. > > Please try to act more with your authentic voice without the > > posturing. I'm sure your posts would be more informative and > > much better received. And you would be happier. > > > > You like to quote Swami Sivananda. Please allow me also to > > quote Swami Sivananda on fear: > > > > "Fear is the beginning of all evil. From fear proceeds misfortune. > > The fears of a coward expose him dangers. > > > > "Constant fear saps your vitality, shakes confidence, and > > destroys your ability. It makes you powerless. It is an enemy of > > your success. > > > > "What paralysis is to the physical body, so it fear to the mind. It > > paralyzes the mind and makes you powerless. Fear is the most > > destructive emotion. It breaks down the nervous system and > > undermines your health. > > > > "Fear in all its different phases is the greatest enemy of man. It > > has destroyed the happiness and efficiency of man. It has made > > more men cowards, more people failures. > > > > "Fear is a great human curse. Fear blights many lives, makes > > people unhappy and unsuccessful. Fear is a negative thought. > > Fear is your worst enemy. > > > > "Raga or attachment is the long-standing association of fear. > > Attachment is the cause of fear. Attachment to objects causes > > fear. Attachment to name and fame causes fear. Attachment to > > women and money causes fear. Any attachment is the womb of > > terrible fear. > > > > "He does not fear who has renounced everything, who perceives > > the Atman in all. If there is no Raga, there is no fear. > > > > "Drowning waves of fear may at times rush down upon us. We > > may lose mental balance for a while. We may be over-sensitive > > and agitated. [sound familiar?] > > > > "Sit for a while. Reflect well. Introspect. All imaginary fears > will > > take to their heels. They will dwindle into an airy nothingness. > > > > " Put the seeds of courage in your heart. Develop your will- power. > > Develop mental power of endurance. Be courageous and > > patient. Have courage and manly character. > > > > "Remember the saints and their virtuous deeds. Live in the > > company of sages and Yogins. Meditate on the fearless Atman. > > > > "God bestows perfect security on His devotees and removes all > > sorts of fears. > > > > I'm sure that if you followed these prescriptions you would be > > much happier and your posts would be more readable. > > > > Incidentally, Swami Vishnu and Swami Vishnu-devananda > > practiced the Yoga of Synthesis. They did not bind themselves > > slavishly to one rigid path. For them, Paths are many, Truth is > > One. > > > > At the moment of his death, Swami Sivananda is reported to > > have said just 2 words, "Remember. Forget." This meant > > "Remember God. Forget the rest." > > > > Someday, you will be able to do the same. > > > > > > Om Aim Hreem Kleem Chamundaya Viche Namaha > > > > Omprem > > > > > > > > , sankarrukku <no_reply> wrote: > > > Sri Omprem, > > > > > > Your message is has no relevance to the subject matter that is > > Ishta > > > Devata. Where did I talk about mantras? How come you never > > thought of > > > replying to the query about Ishta devata? Both Swami > > Sivananda and > > > Swami Vishnudevananda (page 62 of his book Meditation and > > mantras) > > > have given excellent exposition on Ishta Devata. > > > > > > About Saguna Mantras and Nirguna mantras Swami > > Vishnudevananda has > > > defined Nirguna mantras thus > > > > > > "As Saguna mantras have form, Nirguna mantras are without > > forms. > > > There are no deities or personalized aspect of God to be > > invoked. > > > Rather one uses the abstract mantras and Vedantic formulas > > to assert > > > identification with all of creation." > > > > > > This is a vedantins point of view. When we are discussing > > Ishta > > > Devata why are you talking abut Nirguna mantras. All > > Ishtadevatas > > > have forms. All Mantras in Mantra Sashthra are saguna. > > > > > > You have quoted the KAALI Mantra from Swami Vishnu > > Devananda's book. > > > > > > There are nine forms of MAA KAALI. There are more than > > hundred > > > mantras of MAA KAALI. > > > > > > About MAA KAALI, Bagavan Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa > > says in his > > > Gospel about Brahman and Kali > > > > > > " The primordial power is ever at play. She is creating, > > preserving, > > > and destroying in play, as it were. This power is called Kali. > > Kali > > > is verily Brahman, and Brahman is verily Kali. It is one and the > > same > > > reality. When think of it is inactive, that is to say, not > engaged in > > > the acts of creation, preservation and destruction, then we call > > it > > > Brahman. But when it engages in these activities, then we call > > it > > > Kali or Sakthi. The reality is one and the same: the difference > in > > > name and form." > > > > > > We find from the life and works of Swami Vivekananda and > > many of the > > > disciples of Bagavan Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, that > > even in the > > > eyes of many Vedantins Kali is Brahman. > > > > > > There are six systems of philosophy in Hinduism. There are > > many > > > margas/Yogas. All of them do not aim at the Brahman. If you > > have read > > > Swami Sivananda you will know about the different yogas and > > different > > > goals. > > > > > > The different Goals are > > > > > > 1. Realizing the Brahman - Brahma Sutras > > > 2. Everlasting happiness and Moksha or Liberation from the > > cycle of > > > rebirths. - Ramayana & Mahabharata. > > > 3. Merging with god. > > > 4. Perfection of man in order to become the divine. > > > 5. Sahaja and Samarasa - Avadhuta Gita > > > 6. Union of Jivatma and Paramatma - Yoga Vishishta. > > > 7. Saktha- The aspirant thinks that the world is identical with > > the > > > Divine mother. He moves about thinking his own form to be the > > form of > > > the divine mother and thus beholds oneness everywhere. He > > also feels > > > that the divine mother is identical with Para Brahman. > > > > > > All definitions except Avadhuta gita from Swami Sivananda's > > books. > > > > > > Swami Sivananda has also written a book called Tantra Yoga, > > Nada yoga > > > and Kriya Yoga. Swami Sivananda had knowledge of all the > > margas. But > > > he talks of Brahman only in the margas in which it is > > appropriate. > > > > > > You seem to believe that only Vedanta is Hinduism and you > > look at > > > Bhakthi, Tantra and everything else only from the Vedantin's > > point of > > > view. > > > > > > As Tatwamasi rightly put it > > > > > > " When we look at Bhakti aspects of sadhna with the eyes of a > > > vedantin, total > > > confusion ensues unless one has learnt to bridge that > > apparent gap. > > > This may explain the typical "fights" between Bhaktas who are > > "in > > > love" and Vedantins who are attempting to put things into a box > > with > > > logical rules. " > > > > > > > > > Jai MAA KAALI !!! > > > > > > P.S: I would advise you to confine your messages to Hatha > > yoga and > > > Vedanta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2002 Report Share Posted March 27, 2002 Om Sankarrukku I am not interested in driving you away. I only ask that you speak from your own personal experience and not try to present yourself as a pandit in areas where you have little or no experience. Those adjectives you quote are descriptions of your various tones. You make a mistake when you attempt to use them as weapons. Perhaps you should listen to your self more closely. Serve. Love. Give. Meditate. Purify. Realize. Be Good. Do Good. Be Kind. Be Compassionate. Adapt. Adjust. Accommodate. Bear Insult. Bear Injury. Highest Sadhana. Bear Insult. Bear Injury. Highest Yoga. Inquire, "Who am I." Know thyself and be free. Om Tat Sat Omprem , sankarrukku <no_reply> wrote: > Sri Omprem > > "condescension, haughtiness and pomposity, unctuous, fawning, > obsequious, almost servile, hostile, rude and dismissive " > > These are the choice invectives you have used in your message about > me. > You had earlier found fault with my grammar and advised me, that it > is much better, much more interesting and more enlightening to > meditate with Mantras rather than talking about them? > > However all this cannot change the fact that I was only responding to > a members query about Ishta Devata and did not mention anything about > Mantras. So your message had no relevance to the subject of Ishta > Devata. > > May be you were preparing me for this kind of message when you quoted > Swami Sivananda in one of your earlier messages > > ," Bear insult. Bear Injury. This is the highest sadhana. Bear > insult. Bear injury. This is the highest Yoga." > > Your general attitude is seen from the statement in one of your > messages > > "If Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's Guru was of the Saraswati lineage > that's more than good enough for me" > > I have heard about your driving away some members earlier. But you > cannot drive me away by your bullying attitude. You cannot cow down > everyone. Civilized behavior is often mistaken for cowardice. > > > Sankar > > > > , omprem <no_reply> wrote: > > Om Sankarrukku > > > > Again, with all due respect, allow me to point out that it was you > > yourself that introduced Ishtadevata, the gunas, and use the term > > `nirguna' in the post. > > > > Allow me also address the tone of your post. Just as there are 3 > > gunas, so, too, do your posts have 3 tones. > > > > When you are posting in an attempt to present yourself as an > > pundit, you cite many sources in an effort to bolster your opinions > > and your tone is one of condescension, haughtiness and > > pomposity. > > > > The Bhagavad Gita describes the true pandit as one 'whose > > undertakings are all devoid of desires and purposes, and whose > > actions have been burnt by the Fire-of-Knowledge' (IV/19). > > Unfortunately, your posts done not meet these criteria. > > > > When you are replying to those who agree with you, your tone is > > unctuous, fawning, obsequious, almost servile. > > > > And when you are replying to those who refute the material you > > present as factual or who disagree with your opinion, your tone > > is hostile, rude and dismissive. > > > > All 3 of these tones has fear as its basis. An defensive ego that > > has nothing on which to focus is the cause of fear. > > > > You demean only yourself with these tones. You also cheapen > > the value of whatever it is that you are attempting to present. > > Please try to act more with your authentic voice without the > > posturing. I'm sure your posts would be more informative and > > much better received. And you would be happier. > > > > You like to quote Swami Sivananda. Please allow me also to > > quote Swami Sivananda on fear: > > > > "Fear is the beginning of all evil. From fear proceeds misfortune. > > The fears of a coward expose him dangers. > > > > "Constant fear saps your vitality, shakes confidence, and > > destroys your ability. It makes you powerless. It is an enemy of > > your success. > > > > "What paralysis is to the physical body, so it fear to the mind. It > > paralyzes the mind and makes you powerless. Fear is the most > > destructive emotion. It breaks down the nervous system and > > undermines your health. > > > > "Fear in all its different phases is the greatest enemy of man. It > > has destroyed the happiness and efficiency of man. It has made > > more men cowards, more people failures. > > > > "Fear is a great human curse. Fear blights many lives, makes > > people unhappy and unsuccessful. Fear is a negative thought. > > Fear is your worst enemy. > > > > "Raga or attachment is the long-standing association of fear. > > Attachment is the cause of fear. Attachment to objects causes > > fear. Attachment to name and fame causes fear. Attachment to > > women and money causes fear. Any attachment is the womb of > > terrible fear. > > > > "He does not fear who has renounced everything, who perceives > > the Atman in all. If there is no Raga, there is no fear. > > > > "Drowning waves of fear may at times rush down upon us. We > > may lose mental balance for a while. We may be over-sensitive > > and agitated. [sound familiar?] > > > > "Sit for a while. Reflect well. Introspect. All imaginary fears > will > > take to their heels. They will dwindle into an airy nothingness. > > > > " Put the seeds of courage in your heart. Develop your will-power. > > Develop mental power of endurance. Be courageous and > > patient. Have courage and manly character. > > > > "Remember the saints and their virtuous deeds. Live in the > > company of sages and Yogins. Meditate on the fearless Atman. > > > > "God bestows perfect security on His devotees and removes all > > sorts of fears. > > > > I'm sure that if you followed these prescriptions you would be > > much happier and your posts would be more readable. > > > > Incidentally, Swami Vishnu and Swami Vishnu-devananda > > practiced the Yoga of Synthesis. They did not bind themselves > > slavishly to one rigid path. For them, Paths are many, Truth is > > One. > > > > At the moment of his death, Swami Sivananda is reported to > > have said just 2 words, "Remember. Forget." This meant > > "Remember God. Forget the rest." > > > > Someday, you will be able to do the same. > > > > > > Om Aim Hreem Kleem Chamundaya Viche Namaha > > > > Omprem > > > > > > > > , sankarrukku <no_reply> wrote: > > > Sri Omprem, > > > > > > Your message is has no relevance to the subject matter that is > > Ishta > > > Devata. Where did I talk about mantras? How come you never > > thought of > > > replying to the query about Ishta devata? Both Swami > > Sivananda and > > > Swami Vishnudevananda (page 62 of his book Meditation and > > mantras) > > > have given excellent exposition on Ishta Devata. > > > > > > About Saguna Mantras and Nirguna mantras Swami > > Vishnudevananda has > > > defined Nirguna mantras thus > > > > > > "As Saguna mantras have form, Nirguna mantras are without > > forms. > > > There are no deities or personalized aspect of God to be > > invoked. > > > Rather one uses the abstract mantras and Vedantic formulas > > to assert > > > identification with all of creation." > > > > > > This is a vedantins point of view. When we are discussing > > Ishta > > > Devata why are you talking abut Nirguna mantras. All > > Ishtadevatas > > > have forms. All Mantras in Mantra Sashthra are saguna. > > > > > > You have quoted the KAALI Mantra from Swami Vishnu > > Devananda's book. > > > > > > There are nine forms of MAA KAALI. There are more than > > hundred > > > mantras of MAA KAALI. > > > > > > About MAA KAALI, Bagavan Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa > > says in his > > > Gospel about Brahman and Kali > > > > > > " The primordial power is ever at play. She is creating, > > preserving, > > > and destroying in play, as it were. This power is called Kali. > > Kali > > > is verily Brahman, and Brahman is verily Kali. It is one and the > > same > > > reality. When think of it is inactive, that is to say, not > engaged in > > > the acts of creation, preservation and destruction, then we call > > it > > > Brahman. But when it engages in these activities, then we call > > it > > > Kali or Sakthi. The reality is one and the same: the difference > in > > > name and form." > > > > > > We find from the life and works of Swami Vivekananda and > > many of the > > > disciples of Bagavan Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, that > > even in the > > > eyes of many Vedantins Kali is Brahman. > > > > > > There are six systems of philosophy in Hinduism. There are > > many > > > margas/Yogas. All of them do not aim at the Brahman. If you > > have read > > > Swami Sivananda you will know about the different yogas and > > different > > > goals. > > > > > > The different Goals are > > > > > > 1. Realizing the Brahman - Brahma Sutras > > > 2. Everlasting happiness and Moksha or Liberation from the > > cycle of > > > rebirths. - Ramayana & Mahabharata. > > > 3. Merging with god. > > > 4. Perfection of man in order to become the divine. > > > 5. Sahaja and Samarasa - Avadhuta Gita > > > 6. Union of Jivatma and Paramatma - Yoga Vishishta. > > > 7. Saktha- The aspirant thinks that the world is identical with > > the > > > Divine mother. He moves about thinking his own form to be the > > form of > > > the divine mother and thus beholds oneness everywhere. He > > also feels > > > that the divine mother is identical with Para Brahman. > > > > > > All definitions except Avadhuta gita from Swami Sivananda's > > books. > > > > > > Swami Sivananda has also written a book called Tantra Yoga, > > Nada yoga > > > and Kriya Yoga. Swami Sivananda had knowledge of all the > > margas. But > > > he talks of Brahman only in the margas in which it is > > appropriate. > > > > > > You seem to believe that only Vedanta is Hinduism and you > > look at > > > Bhakthi, Tantra and everything else only from the Vedantin's > > point of > > > view. > > > > > > As Tatwamasi rightly put it > > > > > > " When we look at Bhakti aspects of sadhna with the eyes of a > > > vedantin, total > > > confusion ensues unless one has learnt to bridge that > > apparent gap. > > > This may explain the typical "fights" between Bhaktas who are > > "in > > > love" and Vedantins who are attempting to put things into a box > > with > > > logical rules. " > > > > > > > > > Jai MAA KAALI !!! > > > > > > P.S: I would advise you to confine your messages to Hatha > > yoga and > > > Vedanta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2002 Report Share Posted April 5, 2002 Erica, If you are born a Hindu and grow up in India you worship a number of Gods and goddesses. But the path of spirituality is through Japa/Mantra/Meditation. If you do Japa of many different Gods it is not effective. Also the first step in spirituality is the realisation that God is one. Who is this one God? Your Ishtadevata. Then you do Japa of that God with Mantra. As the mantras vary depending on the God, you choose the Mantra of the Ishtadevata. In meditation and Japa you have to visualize the form of the God. So you visualize the form of your Ishta Devata. One God -- with form -- without form Though many people may not even know the term Ishta Devata the process of progress in spirituality is the same. There are people who do not have an Ishta devata and learn the mantras of many Gods. This fritters away your energy making it more difficult to reach a higher stage. The whole process is about raising of the Kundalini Sakthi (Consciously or otherwise). Erica if you do not know many Hindu Gods/Goddesses the process is simpler. Choose a God/Goddess known to you. The process of visualization is also simpler. We have a music season every year in Madras during which there are a number of Carnatic (south Indian Classical) music concerts. During the last two years a Catholic Nun has become our friend as she also attends these concerts regularly. Carnatic music is basically Bhakthi. When we were discussing the music the nun told us that her Ishta devata is Lord Jesus and her Sadhana is through Carnatic music. Hindus in India come to know about the different gods and Goddesses through the family and environment. But they also learn by visiting temples and through books/magazines. Books are a major source of information. The more gods you know about the more difficult the process of selection. As per the classical texts the Guru selects the Ishta Devata if you do not have one. The process of selection also includes Astrology. You should be extremely fortunate to get a Guru like that. Sankar , sugarandbrine <no_reply> wrote: > Respected members, > > Thank you all so much for your posts on this topic. I am finding all > of them very infomative. I wonder, though, why it seems that messages > have gotten a little bit combative, especially when we are talking > about something so personal and individual. I wanted to start the > topic simply because I wanted others' experiences and input; I didn't > want to start a battle about right/wrong. > > I am curious to know how everyone learned about different > Goddesses/Gods. Did you read a book, or just learn from experience? > > With much love, > Erica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2002 Report Share Posted April 6, 2002 Sankarukkuji, Thanks so much for bringing this topic up again. Something you said confused me a bit though, and I was wondering if you'd be gracious enough to clarify so I can understand. God is one, but you say learning mantras to different Gods/Goddesses fritters away our energy. If all are One, how would it waste any of the energy? If we are concentrating on God as one form at one time, but as we progress down our own path, we feel drawn to another form, how does it effect us negatively? I think if we are drawn one way or another, it is for a reason. With love, Erica , sankarrukku <no_reply> wrote: > Erica, > > If you are born a Hindu and grow up in India you worship a number of > Gods and goddesses. But the path of spirituality is through > Japa/Mantra/Meditation. If you do Japa of many different Gods it is > not effective. Also the first step in spirituality is the realisation > that God is one. Who is this one God? Your Ishtadevata. Then you do > Japa of that God with Mantra. As the mantras vary depending on the > God, you choose the Mantra of the Ishtadevata. In meditation and Japa > you have to visualize the form of the God. So you visualize the form > of your Ishta Devata. > > One God -- with form -- without form > > Though many people may not even know the term Ishta Devata the > process of progress in spirituality is the same. There are people who > do not have an Ishta devata and learn the mantras of many Gods. This > fritters away your energy making it more difficult to reach a higher > stage. > > The whole process is about raising of the Kundalini Sakthi > (Consciously or otherwise). > > Erica if you do not know many Hindu Gods/Goddesses the process is > simpler. Choose a God/Goddess known to you. The process of > visualization is also simpler. > > We have a music season every year in Madras during which there are a > number of Carnatic (south Indian Classical) music concerts. During > the last two years a Catholic Nun has become our friend as she also > attends these concerts regularly. Carnatic music is basically > Bhakthi. When we were discussing the music the nun told us that her > Ishta devata is Lord Jesus and her Sadhana is through Carnatic music. > > Hindus in India come to know about the different gods and Goddesses > through the family and environment. But they also learn by visiting > temples and through books/magazines. Books are a major source of > information. The more gods you know about the more difficult the > process of selection. > > > As per the classical texts the Guru selects the Ishta Devata if you > do not have one. The process of selection also includes Astrology. > You should be extremely fortunate to get a Guru like that. > > Sankar > > > , sugarandbrine <no_reply> wrote: > > Respected members, > > > > Thank you all so much for your posts on this topic. I am finding > all > > of them very infomative. I wonder, though, why it seems that > messages > > have gotten a little bit combative, especially when we are talking > > about something so personal and individual. I wanted to start the > > topic simply because I wanted others' experiences and input; I > didn't > > want to start a battle about right/wrong. > > > > I am curious to know how everyone learned about different > > Goddesses/Gods. Did you read a book, or just learn from experience? > > > > With much love, > > Erica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2002 Report Share Posted April 7, 2002 <God is one, but you say learning mantras to different Gods/Goddesses fritters away our energy. If all are One, how would it waste any of the energy? If we are concentrating on God as one form at one time, but as we progress down our own path, we feel drawn to another form, how does it effect us negatively? I think if we are drawn one way or another, it is for a reason.> I should have used the term "the ultimate principle" instead of God. Your Ishta Devata is the ultimate principle. Since it is easier to go from form to formless, you choose a form for the Ishta devata. We have misunderstandings when it is not realised that the ultimate principle is the Ishta Devata. When I say MAA KAALI is Brahman or Lord Krishna is Brahman it only means that the ultimate principle is in the form of MAA KAALI or Lord Krishna. Since I am comfortable with a form with compassion, love etc. I imagine MAA to be like that though I do realise that, since she is Brahman she is Nirguna. This is in conformity with my reasoning of going from Bhakthi marga to Jnana Marga. You concentrate on only one form at a time. To explain this I have to use the term Upasana. I am more comfortable with this term than with Sadhana. Your Ishta Devata is your Upasana murthi. Though you may worship many Gods there should be only one Upasana murthi. I was warning about doing Upasana of many murthis at the same time. You may change your Upasana murthi depending on many factors. There is no harm in that. It does happen often. Meditation requires concentration. You concentrate on the form of your Ishta Devata. Even for meditation on the formless many Gurus suggest imagining sky with a bird flying or open ocean. Many people collect mantras like stamps. They also start Upasana of many Gods simultaneously. This leads to frittering of energy. I do hope my message has been able to address your queries. Please do not hesitate to ask any questions. Sankar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.