RE: [Y-Indology] "zAp" / "shaapa"

[Guest guest]

Dear Prashant,

 

Curses don't necessarily cause real changes in the real world (although I

have accumulated insufficient tapas to verify this experientially), but they

certainly do help to govern the textworld. They are one of the many

resources offered by narrative texts as constraints, (partial) causes or

explanations of certain (textual) events.

 

Regarding the textual conventions of cursing, please see P. V. Ramankutty

(1999), Curse as a motif in the Mahabharata. Delhi: Nag Publishers.

 

Also useful is Minoru Hara (1997), 'The losing of tapas', in D. van der Meij

(ed.), India and beyond: aspects of literature, meaning, ritual and thought

- Essays in honour of Frits Staal, pp. 226-248. London and New York: Kegan

Paul International. Here the emphasis is on instances where a

tapas-accumulator is shorn of power (usually by a scheme of Indra's) through

being provoked into making a curse.

 

Indeed it is only 'spiritually' powerful people who can curse (and they can

even curse the gods). Tapas or an excellent dharmic record are

prerequisites. Male kshatriyas seem less in need of curses as they can

overpower their enemies in a different way. Curses once uttered cannot be

revoked but they can be modified or partially ameliorated by the

intervention of another 'spiritually' powerful individual.

 

The curse is closely related to the boon, the vow, and the act of truth, so

general literature on truth-in-utterance might be useful to you also.

 

Can anybody say anything about the relation between cursing someone (with

the mouth) and burning them up (with the eyes)? Gandhari visually scorches

Yudhishthira's fingertips shortly after being persuaded not to curse him,

and elsewhere we are repeatedly told, at moments of his vexation, that

Yudhishthira's glance could reduce one to ashes should he wish it. It seems

that visual scorching is a lesser expression of anger than cursing, but that

it is powered similarly (by tapas / dharmic accumulation).

 

All the best,

Simon Brodbeck

SOAS, University of London.

 

 

Prashant Bagad [prashantbagad]

12 October 2004 15:44

INDOLOGY

[Y-Indology] "zAp" / "shaapa"

 

 

 

 

"zAp" / "shaapa"

 

It is curious that ancient rishis could just utter a "zAp" and make

the concerned person go through disasters which, according to the

zAp-giver, are appropriate given the person's vice. And a rishi like

Durwas utters a zAp purely out of his anger caused by his personal

discomfort and not due to his perception of a wrong act. Even if we

prefer to overlook the unbelievable magical power of a zAp-giver to

cause some physical, real changes in the world, the act of zAp-

giving seems to have a believable logic.

In the Marathi language, an ordinary person, on whom some

person inflicts some pain out of sheer malice, quite naturally says

that that person will suffer his "TalaTalAt". The difference between

uttering a zAp and uttering words of TalaTalAt seems to me that

while the latter is a private utterance, a temporary act of

comforting oneself by saying that one will again have a normal,

happy life and the wrong-doer will have to suffer, the former

appears to be a public act with its well-established conventions. So

there might be formal eligibility conditions as to who can utter a

zAp and who will have to suffer it and who can escape. There might

also be elaborate means to utter or evade a zAp which are recognized

by a community.

Do my intuitions have any ground? Can you suggest me a book

or article?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Links

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, "Simon Brodbeck" <sb4@s...> wrote:

 

> Can anybody say anything about the relation between cursing

someone (with

> the mouth) and burning them up (with the eyes)? Gandhari visually

scorches

> Yudhishthira's fingertips shortly after being persuaded not to

curse him,

> and elsewhere we are repeatedly told, at moments of his vexation,

that

> Yudhishthira's glance could reduce one to ashes should he wish it.

It seems

> that visual scorching is a lesser expression of anger than

cursing, but that

> it is powered similarly (by tapas / dharmic accumulation).

 

That's what they say about what he might do, but does he or anyone

else ever deliberately zap with the eyes? Perhaps cursing is a

voluntary use of tapas, while the burning with the eyes is a kind of

involuntary overflow of tapas when it has been brought to the

surface by anger. That seemed to be the case with Gandhari.

 

FS

[Guest guest]

We might add:

 

Smith, William L. Explaining the Inexplicable: Uses of the Curse in Rama

Literature. In: Eivind Kahrs, ed., Kalyanamitraraganam, Essays in Honor of

Nils Simonsson. Oslo: Norwegian University Press; 1986;(Instituttet for

Sammenlignende Kulturforskning Series B; v. 70).

 

Regards,

 

Luis González-Reimann

___________

 

At 10:10 AM 10/14/2004 +0100, Simon Brodbeck wrote:

 

 

>Regarding the textual conventions of cursing, please see P. V. Ramankutty

>(1999), Curse as a motif in the Mahabharata. Delhi: Nag Publishers.

>

>Also useful is Minoru Hara (1997), 'The losing of tapas', in D. van der Meij

>(ed.), India and beyond: aspects of literature, meaning, ritual and thought

>- Essays in honour of Frits Staal, pp. 226-248. London and New York: Kegan

>Paul International. Here the emphasis is on instances where a

>tapas-accumulator is shorn of power (usually by a scheme of Indra's) through

>being provoked into making a curse.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Burning with eyes seems to be the exreme [high voltage] step one

instantaneously takes when overwhelmed by moral indignation. Classic cases of

burning , of course are the burning of Kamadeva by Siva and the burning of the

hunter by Damayanti when he tries to molest her. Curse, a verbal punishment is

less physical and more negotiable as there is always the prospect of a

Sapamoksa, a release frm the curse.Consider the cases of Kamadeva being burnt

by Siva and Sakuntala being cursed by Sage Durvassa. The cases are not

interchangeable.

Rajendran

 

 

Dr.C.Rajendran

Professor of Sanskrit

University of Calicut

Calicut University P.O

Kerala 673 635 Phone: 0494-2401144

Residential address:28/1097,Rajadhani Kumaran Nair Road,

Chevayur, Calicut Kerala 673 017 Phone: 0495-2354 624

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, Rajendran C <crajenin> wrote:

 

Consider the cases of Kamadeva being burnt by Siva and Sakuntala

being cursed by Sage Durvassa. The cases are not interchangeable.

 

Many of the sages seem to have almost as little control over the

irascibility that leads them to curse, as over the incendiary power

of their eyes, hence the usual post-curse negotiations.

 

FS

[Guest guest]

In the discussion about zApa I have not noticed anybody mention Robert P.

Goldman's excellent article "Karma, Guilt, and Buried Memories: Public

Fantasy and Private Reality in Traditional India." published in The Journal

of the American Oriental Society. Vol. 105: 3, 1985, pp. 413-25.

Goldman has interesting and amusing things to say about curses.

 

Stella Sandahl

 

 

on 18/10/2004 14:41, filippo_senzadenaro at filippo_senzadenaro

wrote:

 

>

>

>

> INDOLOGY, Rajendran C <crajenin> wrote:

>

> Consider the cases of Kamadeva being burnt by Siva and Sakuntala

> being cursed by Sage Durvassa. The cases are not interchangeable.

>

> Many of the sages seem to have almost as little control over the

> irascibility that leads them to curse, as over the incendiary power

> of their eyes, hence the usual post-curse negotiations.

>

> FS

>

>

>

>

>

>

Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, Stella Sandahl <ssandahl@E...>

wrote:

> In the discussion about zApa I have not noticed anybody mention

Robert P.

> Goldman's excellent article "Karma, Guilt, and Buried Memories:

Public

> Fantasy and Private Reality in Traditional India." published in

The Journal

> of the American Oriental Society. Vol. 105: 3, 1985, pp. 413-25.

> Goldman has interesting and amusing things to say about curses.

 

Thanks, Professor. In the absence of an effective method of

searching journals, this seems to be the best way to find out about

such articles, besides starting at volume one.

 

On the matter of the intentionality or lack thereof in cursing and

zapping: I just happened to come across this passage in A.N.D.

Haskar's new translation of the Sukasaptati:

 

'Once, while the young ascetic was sitting by the riverside, telling

his beads, a stork flying overhead happened to shit upon him. As he

looked up, his eyes blazing with anger, the bird was incinerated in

the fire of his wrathful gaze and fell dead to the ground.'

 

Sounds like he meant it.

 

FS

[Guest guest]

Exactly. Neverthless, it seems to be the degree in the intensity of the wrath of

the enraged person which determines whether the reaction is burning or simply

a curse.

Rajendran

..

 

 

Dr.C.Rajendran

Professor of Sanskrit

University of Calicut

Calicut University P.O

Kerala 673 635 Phone: 0494-2401144

Residential address:28/1097,Rajadhani Kumaran Nair Road,

Chevayur, Calicut Kerala 673 017 Phone: 0495-2354 624

 

 

 

vote. - Register online to vote today!

 

 

[Guest guest]

An excellent work that has not been noticed

as much as it should have been is Pendse. S.N. ,

'Oaths and Ordeals in Dharma Sharastra", Baroda : MSU of Baroda, 1985.

Pendse shows how much of the ordeals and vows resting upon

the power of the given word were actual practices in the ancient

Hindu society. One gets a very good idea of the relationship

bwtween the myth and the prescribed codes of sicial conduct.

 

Curse is an Indo European phenomenon and the

'shame culture' of aidos operated in classical Greek

life as much. For the complex working of oath and curses,

and their legitimacy, perhaps my article on "Indo European Beliefs in Greek

and Indian Drama" available on the web site of IF

could be useful.

regards,

 

 

Bharat Gupt

Associate Professor, CVS, Delhi University,

Founder member and Trustee

International Forum for India's Heritage.

PO Box 8518, Ashok Vihar, Delhi 110052 INDIA.

mobile: +91-98100 77914

home phones: +91-11-2724-1490, +91-11-2741-5658,

+91-129-227-6223, +91-129-504-4590

email: bharatgupt

homepage: http://personal.vsnl.com/bharatgupt

 

-

"filippo_senzadenaro" <filippo_senzadenaro

<INDOLOGY>

Tuesday, October 19, 2004 7:47 PM

Re: [Y-Indology] "zAp" / "shaapa"

 

 

>

>

>

> INDOLOGY, Stella Sandahl <ssandahl@E...>

> wrote:

> > In the discussion about zApa I have not noticed anybody mention

> Robert P.

> > Goldman's excellent article "Karma, Guilt, and Buried Memories:

> Public

> > Fantasy and Private Reality in Traditional India." published in

> The Journal

> > of the American Oriental Society. Vol. 105: 3, 1985, pp. 413-25.

> > Goldman has interesting and amusing things to say about curses.

>

> Thanks, Professor. In the absence of an effective method of

> searching journals, this seems to be the best way to find out about

> such articles, besides starting at volume one.

>

> On the matter of the intentionality or lack thereof in cursing and

> zapping: I just happened to come across this passage in A.N.D.

> Haskar's new translation of the Sukasaptati:

>

> 'Once, while the young ascetic was sitting by the riverside, telling

> his beads, a stork flying overhead happened to shit upon him. As he

> looked up, his eyes blazing with anger, the bird was incinerated in

> the fire of his wrathful gaze and fell dead to the ground.'

>

> Sounds like he meant it.

>

> FS

>

>

>

>

>

Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

For a better treatment of the concept of shapa and its usefulness in Indian

stories please refer to the recent work-

 

"Curse as a Motif in the Mahabhatrata" published by Nag publishers,11A/

u.A,Jawhar Nagar,Delhi-110007 first Ed.1999,pp235

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Bharat Gupt <bharatgupt wrote:

 

An excellent work that has not been noticed

as much as it should have been is Pendse. S.N. ,

'Oaths and Ordeals in Dharma Sharastra", Baroda : MSU of Baroda, 1985.

sicial conduct.

 

Curse is an Indo European phenomenon and the

'shame culture' of aidos operated in classical Greek

life as much. For the complex working of oath and curses,

and their legitimacy, perhaps my article on "Indo European Beliefs in Greek

and Indian Drama" available on the web site of IF

could be useful.

 

 

 

These sound more promising than the Goldman article, whose forcing of

psychoanalysis upon classical indian culture must, I suspect, have seemed a bit

jejune and tired even when it was published, which may be why the only voices in

the discourse that he cites in support of his argument, are his own and Jeffrey

Masson's, who, I think, had really said all there was to say about past lives

and childhood memories about ten years before. Goldman's comparison of the

doctrine of karma to belief in Santa Claus's sleigh, and his reference to

brahmins as 'a professional, if parasitic, class of entrepreneurs prepared to

serve the "spiritual needs" of the faithful and in doing so, earn their

livelihood', made me check the spine of the volume to make sure that the year

was not 1885 rather than 1985, and that it was really the JAOS and not the

Journal of the American Missionary Society or something.

 

 

 

Specifically, I found it an interesting oversight when Goldman writes:

 

 

 

'In this blind circle of negative emotions a kind of shared paranoia is

generated as a result of which people begin to view the natural misfortunes of

their lives as richly deserved punishment for their past aggressions and genuine

hostility towards their parents and those who have come to represent them. But

in a society that values above all else filial deference and devotion it is

unthinkable to own up to one's negative feelings towards one's elders. It is

especially difficult for someone in such a situation to ascribe such feelings to

children or to take responsibility for them as genuine emotions produced by real

events in his own early life.'

 

 

 

Considering that Goldman makes use in this article of a couple of passages from

the Mahabharata, I thought that he might have wanted to consider the case of

Karna's encounter with Kunti in the Udyogaparvan as, apparently, a quite

spectacular exception to the rule he here lays down. Karna's complete awareness

of his feelings about the childhood trauma he suffered at Kunti's hands,

feelings experienced both as a child and as an adult, is famous.

 

 

 

FS

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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