[Y-Indology] Genetic Research

February 24, 2004

On a cursory look Dr. Bamshad's work does not look any different from

Dr Jorde's "Genetics evidence" which I had analysed earlier. Here it

is for those who are interested. I welcome any comments.

Regards,

======================================

INDOLOGY, "rkk" <rkk@N...> wrote:

> Geneticists should address a well-defined pilot project. Let them

> look at Parsis, Kashmiri Pandits, Namboodiri brahmins , and

> Ayyangars to see if there are commonalities..

> Rajesh Kochhar

http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/21st/projects/GeneticDiversity/jorde.html

I went through the above article. The article seems to be transcript

of Prof. Lynn Jorde's oral presentation. The slides are missing so

little can be said about it. (Lynn Jorde is Professor of Human

Genetics at the University of Utah. He has been involved in a

collaborative effort between geneticists, physical

anthropologists, and indigenous populations in India.)

It is my conclusion that the data presented by Prof. Jorde fits the

OIT better than the AIT/AMT. Here is my analysis of the article.

Early in the article Prof. Jorde presents the picture that he wants

to research (in Prof. Jorde's words):

"So here are some of the research questions that we've been

addressing in our studies in south India. First of all, is there

significant between-population genetic variation, and we've been

looking thus far primarily at caste variation, and what is the

pattern of between-caste genetic distances? What are the likely

origins of south Indian castes and tribal populations? And finally,

is there evidence of a sex-biased gene flow between castes? And this

is essentially the system that we were testing with mitochondrial and

Y-chromosome genetic markers, and I'll talk a little bit more about

that as we go along."

Later he builds his premise to test out the data he collected.

"Now, we can summarize -- and this is a very, very oversimplified

summary of major historical events in India, but it gives us at least

a framework from which to proceed -- Paleolithic settlement of

probable African origins, migrations of proto-Dravidian speakers from

the Fertile Crescent area about nine or ten thousand years ago. And

then most recently, a third major event, migrations of Indo-European-

speaking, so-called Aryans from West Asia, about 3500 years ago, and

it was these individuals who established, who are thought

to have established, the caste system. And I'll be referring to these

waves of migration as we go through the talk."

It is clear that the premise of Prof. Jorde's research is based on

the AIT/AMT.

So, strictly speaking, this presentation cannot be taken as a proof of

migration. This presentation can be limited to what Prof. Jorde set

out to prove namely: Genetic variation and caste. However, lets see

how it all goes.

Prof. Jorde first shows that genetic variations across the caste

exists. A loose summary goes like this: The transmission of

mitochondrial DNA across generations is associated with the female of

the species while Y-chromosomal DNA is associated with the male. It

is observed that females had greater mobility across the castes as

opposed to males. The more homogenous nature of the motochondrial DNA

across the castes shows this, while a 6-7 times higher

variation in Y-chromosomal DNA in males of the population shows their

lower mobility across the castes.

For the "cricitcal" conclusions, which "prove" AIT/AMT, I'll use

Prof. Jorde's words:

"Now, we can also look at -- and this is some fairly new work that

hasn't yet been published -- mitochondrial DNA, genetic distances

between various caste groups and continental populations. And one of

the things we see here is that all of the castes are most similar to

groups of Asian populations. And that's expected, given the origins

of the proto-Dravidian populations, so that we see much, much smaller

distances between Asian populations and each of the caste

groups for the mitochondrial DNA."

Comments: Given the geographical isolation of the sub-continental

population for long periods of time and the female mobility across

castes, a homogeneity in mitochondrial DNA is not totally unexpected,

even according to Prof. Jorde's analysis. IOW, assumption of the

existence of a proto-Dravidian population is unnecessary.

Further Prof. Jorde says:

"When we look at Y chromosome DNA, we again see a somewhat different

pattern. For the upper castes, they actually have slightly greater

genetic affinity (smaller distances) for European populations than

for any other population. The middle castes, a little bit smaller

distance between them and Europeans, and the lower castes instead

have the greatest affinity to Asian populations."

Comments: ".....greatest affinity to Asian populations"? This is

ambigous. If it refers to the Dravidian population as Prof Jorde

previously alluded, then it is fictitious comparision since, then he

is comparing the supposed "lower caste" with themselves and obviously

a good match will be found.

OTOH, it would be naive to imagine that the population across whole

of Europe has very low variation in Y-chormosomal DNA. It would be

interesting to see which European population set has the maximum

affinity to the "upper caste".

And then he concludes;

"Now, if we think back about the history of the population, the most

recent wave, and the one that is the most recent wave of migrants,

the one that instituted the caste system is thought to have come from

West Asia, Eurasia, and those individuals would likely have been more

similar to individuals from Europe. And as those individuals who

began the caste system, they also likely appropriated the highest

positions in the system. So, a very interesting historical insight,

again consistent with some historical hypotheses that the

invaders who came in about 3500 years ago, established the system, and

primarily who were male, so we see the Y chromosome versus

mitochondrial difference, we can still see that signature in today's

genes."

Comments: Prof. Jorde started with a premise and his data set proves

it. If Prof. Jorde had started with a different premise, will the

data-set disprove the different and incorrect premise? Theoretically,

it should. Let see how the data set fits for example the OIT. We take

OIT because, it runs diametrically opposite to AIT/AMT.

But, first, let us re-build the premise.

In 3500 BP or so the life-sustaining ability of river Saraswathi was

on decline. Migrations of population from its banks began. It is well

known that the "upper caste" brahmin population migrated down the

coast upto Kerala, populating the regions all along the way. The

saraswath brahmins the tulu-brahmins the namboodris are examples and

there is hardly any dispute in this. The other wave moved across to

the gangetic plains and upto Brahmaputra.

I am afraid I have little to go on here. (Can somebody tell me more?)

But what about the other castes? Did they move along with them? What

artefacts have they left behind I have no idea. However, it is

tempting to assume that the "upper class" mobility was much higher.

As it turns out, this is the ONLY assumption one has to make to fit

Prof Jorde's data-set to OIT! Lets see how.

Now, it is downright silly to assume that R. Saraswathi was populated

only on the Eastern bank! What happened to those who lived on the

west side? Did they die out as the Saraswathi dried up? Likely no.

They too migrated? Very possible. Where did they migrate to? Did they

run across the river and into the eastern side? Possible too. But,

did they moved out to present-day Afghanistan and beyond, through to

Middle-East and to Europe!! Lets pick up this possibility and see how

Prof Jorde's data fits.

No disputes about the variation of the Y-chromosomal DNA and

similarities of the mitochondrial DNA across the castes in the sub-

continent. The issue is the similarity of the Y-Chromosomal DNA of

the European population with that of the "upper caste" with gradually

decreasing similarities with other castes. This can easily be

explained as a representation of the mobility pattern. The "upper

caste" had a higher mobility and moved to Europe. The homogenization

of the Y-Chromosome can be explained as the lack of "caste-system"

and it is no surprise that this homogenized population's Y-Chromosome

DNA shows greater similarity to the population that showed the

greatest mobility - namely - the "upper caste".

So, as compared to Prof. Jorde's premise, where he had to make several

assumptions (the Aryan invasion into India, mostly male, formation of

caste system by them, appropriation of the "higher caste" by these

invaders etc.), one has to use just one simple and probably very

likely assumption that the so called "upper caste" had higher

mobility and the premise of "OIT" fits much better.

Guess, the idea is, the lesser the assumptions one has to make to fit

a data-set, the higher the probabilty of the theory to be true.

Suman Singh · May 7, 2009

What is certain that the first time we hear of the Aryan Race is in Rigveda (Northwestern India) and Avesthan (Iranian texts). The Aryans have nothing to do genetically or linguisticly with the Semites (Jews and Arabs). There is an attempt to Semitize Aryan India by inserting Semitic prophets in our culture or even by making Semitic prophets to be of Indian origin! Indians are thus amused.

Take care of genetics as all this theory of the first man being an African is carefully planted and has long term political benefits for the planters. Also racial genetic data circulating is politically loaded and is made to change as the situation desires. The real history of India is ths close to this and no Aryan migration to india occurred and Aryans are native to India: Kashmir's Contribution to Indian Culture

by Dr. ( Mrs. ) Bimla K. Munshi

Some scholars in the Centre of Central Asian Studies of Kashmir University are probing in the direction of establishing the thesis that First man appeared in the Kashmir Valley. This has reference also to the Burzahom excavation and the remains of the so called pit-dwellers found there. All scientists agree that the earliest Homo Erectus named as Ramapithecus Panjabicus appeared in the Northern parts of India situated just south of Kashmir. In my opinion, all these facts point to the inescapable conclusion that Kashmir is the original home of the Aryans and that Aryan and Vedic Culture spread out to other parts of the country from Kashmir Valley itself. We should not forget that there was a time when Gandhar Pradesh ( present Afganistan and N. W. F. P. of Pakistan ) included Kashmir also. There are certain symbols and sacred things of Hinduism which were and are, found in Kashmir only. I mean to say that Kashmir Valley is the only place where all of them are found. Some of them are: Srichakra Fish (Sacred as Matsyavatora and worshipped here even now ) Lotus ( connected with Brahma, Vishnu and Lakshmi ) Bhoorjva ( Bhoj-Patra on which ancient scriptures were etched ), Devadaru Tree, Kesar, Kustoori, Snow, The Snow white God Shiv (Him-Rund-Endu-Karpur-Varna ), Mountains, Water, Nag and Sarp, (not only in Humun form ), Som ( it is being proved now that it was found in the mountains of Kashmir towards Sharada teerth ), Kesar Dhatura ( Used in Shiv Worship) and Kasturi these all have an essential place in our ancient traditions and also in present religious rituals.

The boat of Manu, when it was floundering in the floods of the Khand-Pralaya had found its final resting ground at a place called Manoravsarpan, which is situated in the Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Manu was the Adi Purush from whom sprang the modern human race and Kashmir was the place where the first human of the present civilisation originated.

The seals of the Sindh-Valley Civilisation have been deciphered and it has now been proved that they contain the picture of the Aryan God Shiv in Makhanasan Mudra. Foreign scholars have been trying to squeeze the Vedic, Ramayan and Mahabharat periods between 1500 B.C., (when Sindh Valley Civilisation was destroyed) to 600 B. C., to prove that the movement of Aryans had been from the west to the east, the time of Buddha ( 600 B. C. ) a historically confirmed fact. If the Sindh Valley civilisation is a vedic civilisation and/or it was destroyed earlier than 1500 B. C. then the movement of Aryans will be proved to have been from the East (from India ) to the west ( to Iran and other parts of Europe ). The creation of Vedas, their reduction into writing and the spread of their oral tradition, the spread of Aryan Culture to the eastern parts of India, the time-lag between the Vedic and Ramayana period, the Ramayan and Mahabharat periods, the Mahabharat and Buddha periods and the gradual evolution (or degeneration) of the Vedic language into Sanskrit, and of Sanskrit into Pali could not have taken place during only 900 years ( between 1500 B. C. to 600 B. C. ). Thus, when it has been proved that the Sindh Valley Civilisation is post Vedic ( not pre-vedic as some foreign scholars have been trying to project ), the movement of the Aryans had surely been from the east to the west and their original home was Kashmir. It is a different matter that more than 80% of the people of the Aryan stock in Asia are now muslims and they inhabit the areas of Kashmir, Pakistan, Afganistan and Iran.

There is another point of importance. The Jews who migrated from the city of Or to their present country of Israel in about 4000 B. C. have a mention of this movement in their scriptures but nowhere in the Vedas is a mention that the Aryan had come from anywhere outside India.

The Kashmiri language which is the only Apabhransha ( degenerate form ) of the Vedic language ( not of Sanskrit ) also proves that the original home of the Aryans was this sacred valley of Kashmir of noble traditions.

This is a very big subject to discuss, hence I am only listing below the other factors which prove that Kashmir has contributed to Indian culture more than any other ' Pradesh ' of the Country:

1) There is a tradition that Bhagwan Ramchandra had come to Kashmir in search of Devi Sita.

2) Lord Krishna himself had come to Kashmir to put on throne the widow ( Yashomati ) of the Kashmiri King defeated by him. There are hints in the Mahabharata that the forces of the King of Kashmir had taken part in great Indian war though they were on the side of the Kauravas, and that Takshak (Nag), who belonged to Kashmir later killed Raja Parikshit.

3 ) During the Buddhist period, Kashmir was a great centre of Buddhism and it was from Kashmir that this faith spread ( through Khotan) to China, Mangolia, Japan and Turkey (from where it was eliminated later). The last Buddhist Congress during the times of Kanishka was held in Kashmir.

4 ) Pantni the great grammarian of Sanskrit was also from Kashmir. Gandharadesh ( present Afganistan) and Kashmir were part of the same region in olden times.

5 ) It is a well known fact that even today the old Vedic rituals of marriages and Yajnas are followed only by the Brahmans of Kerala, Kashmir and Karnatak.

6) When Jagatguru Shankaracharya eliminated the impossible religion of Buddhism from India he came to Kashmir also. The Shankaracharya temple still stands as a monument of his visit.

7) After Takshila and Nalanda, the Centre of Sanskrit studies shifted to the Sanskrit University Brajbihara in Kashmir, which was, along with its huge library, later destroyed by Sikander Butshikhan.

8 ) A majority of the major poets and scholars of Sanskrit of India were Kashmiris: - Kalidas, Kshirswamin, Kalhan, Bilhan, Mammat, Anand Vardhan, Vaman, Kshemendra, Abhinav Gupta, Rojanak Shitianth and others. The first historically viable book of history in Sanskrit is Rajtarangini.

9) The Kashmiri Shaivism and Tantra Schools are also distinct contributions to the ethos of India. Even Vamachar is sort of a contribution of Kashmir to Indian rituals.

Thus Kashmir has been the home of Vedic Culture and religion, Buddhist faith, Sanskrit scholarship, Shaivism, Islam, Sufism ( Kashmiri Sufism is a little different from the Sufism which developed in other parts of the country ) and Sikhism.