Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Thanks for filling me in. The picture becomes clearer. I have the following comments: 1. As a matter of principle, I defend Courtright's right to publish his book. That does not mean that I endorse what he says. Academia works in freedom-of-speech mode. 2. Comparing the death threat against Courtright with the threat to boycott Motilal is certainly misplaced. We are talking about two very different dimensions here. 3. Provided the quotes are correct, I still stand by my first gut level reaction: Courtright has read too much Freud. There are, in fact, Indian myths where Agni drinks semen, but I can't see that C. has the right to claim this in connection with Ganesa without any cultural or mythological material. I may change my mind if I read the whole book, but so far, I think he's gone a bit overboard. The broken tusk interpretation does not convince me either. But then I have never seen any Freudian interpretations of Indian mythology that sounded very convincing to me. They may of course exist. 4. Given that there is ample space for rejecting his interpretations with a sound academic argument, the threats against him are not only morally unacceptable, they are also quite pathetic. It is the work of intellectual weaklings. End of comments. Lars Martin Fosse Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, 0674 Oslo - Norway Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 E-mail: lmfosse DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY MALICIOUS OPERATORS. > -----Opprinnelig melding----- > Fra: vishalsagarwal [vishalsagarwal] > Sendt: 3. november 2003 21:50 > Til: INDOLOGY > Emne: Re: SV: [Y-Indology] Ganesh > > > INDOLOGY, "Lars Martin Fosse" <lmfosse@o...> > wrote: > > What exactly is it that is so objectionable about the book? > > > > I found the following description of it on Amazon: > > > > Synopsis > > I learnt about a petition circulating on this book today. I have not > read the book personally, nor have signed the petition so far as I > would like to read the book forst. However, FYI, the petition > contains the following quotations from that book - > > "Its (Ganesha's ) trunk is the displaced phallus, a caricature of > Shiva's linga. > It poses no threat because it is too large, flaccid, and in the wrong > place to > be useful for sexual purposes" (page 121) > "So Ganesha takes on the attributes of his father but in an inverted > form, with > an exaggerated limp phallus-ascetic and benign whereas Siva is "hard" > (un-dhvalinga) erotic and destructive." (page 121) > "Both in his behavior and iconographic form Ganesha resembles in some > aspects, > the figure of the eunuch,.Ganesha is like eunuch guarding the women > of the > harem." (page 111) > "Although there seems to be no myths or folk tales in which Ganesha > explicitly > performs oral sex; his insatiable apetite for sweets may be > interpreted as an > effort to satisfy a hunger that seems inappropriate in an otherwise > ascetic > disposition, a hunger having clear erotic overtones." (page > 111) "Ganesha's broken tusks, his guardian's staff, and > displaced head can > be > interpreted as symbols of castration." (page 111) > > Now, some academics are saying that the quotations have been taken > out of context. I personally wonder how ny context (except if > Courtright cited them as a purvapaksha) could justify such a > statements, Freud or no Freud. > > So I would slightly disagree with V V Raman and argue that such books > merely reflect the perversity of the author, not just insensitivity. > > BTW, defenders of the author are now in turn threatening MLBD that > they will boycott the publisher and will not submit any manuscripts > in future and will withdraw manuscripts submitted to him and under > publication. I find this much more intimidating than the petition. It > is plain academic terrorism. > > For that matter, how would the RISA-jans feel if Freudian techniques > were applied to the author ('He suffers from Penis-Envy vis a vis Sri > Ganesha) or to them as a group ('Risajans, who are defending the > author of the book have a secret wish to be a part of a swinger's > club')? > > Vishal ------------------------ Sponsor > ---------------------~--> Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 > titles. No Late Fees & Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! > http://us.click./x> lw.sC/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/x3XolB/> TM > > > ----------------------------- > -------~-> > > > indology > > > > Your use of is subject to > http://docs./info/> terms/ > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Dear Lars, No I have not found one. The followers of the faith are too poor to write and pursue disciplines other than an academic study of themselves. That's sad. This does include people like me who only develop a cursory interest in their second half. Others make pictures and are stuck with the trunk! However we have hope and all that goes on will certainly lead to better understanding. I have certainly found a few scholars with academic rigor in archaelogy, history and linguistics. No such luck for me in religion. Not being a scholar of religion I can only observe. I even do not know what standards are used to accept and reject a paper. Free speech is political. Academic research is analytic. Whatever I have seen in "conclusions" in so-called Hinduism is mostly sloppy and half-baked. All animals possess genitals. A doctor and a businessman look at them differently. It's the interest and training that make the difference. So we train ourselves more to become real specialists before we indulge in free speech in diagnosis. Best regards, Bijoy Quoting Lars Martin Fosse <lmfosse: > Dear Bijoy, > > You are of course entitled to think and say that I and others do bad > work. However, this makes me curious about one thing: what exactly do > you regard as good work? I would appreciate some bibliographic data > here. Could you refer to some books/articles that you regard as a fair > and good representation of Hinduism? > > Best regards, > > Lars Martin > > > Dr.art. Lars Martin Fosse > Haugerudvn. 76, Leil. 114, > 0674 Oslo - Norway > Phone: +47 22 32 12 19 Fax: +47 850 21 250 > Mobile phone: +47 90 91 91 45 > E-mail: lmfosse > DO NOT OPEN UNEXPECTED ATTACHMENTS. > MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS BEING ABUSED BY > MALICIOUS OPERATORS. > indology > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 INDOLOGY, "Lars Martin Fosse" <lmfosse@o...> wrote: >There are, in fact, Indian > myths where Agni drinks semen, but I can't see that C. has the right to > claim this in connection with Ganesa without any cultural or > mythological material. VA: Yes there are. And in fact, no one objects when MLBD publishes translations of the Brahmavaivarta and other Puranas with all such descriptions. The texts obviously have to be published the way they are, but interpretations are a totally different matter. Unfortunately, there is just too much eroticization of Indian texts these days, it has become a fad and more and more people have started objecting to it. The reasons are the real life situations that we are subjected to. Like my family members being accosted by perfect strangers in the US and asked about Kamasutra (I am not joking on this one - it really happened). Or someone approaching me and asking me what I know about Tantric sex (again, this has happened). As if there is nothing else in India. What we see here however is an interpretation which is pornography in my opinion, and I personally do not attach any legitmacy to such interpretations. Banning a book is different from the publisher withdrawing the book himself. The owners of MLBD are devout Hindus/Jains. So let us respect their wishes. The question is not necessarily of freedom of academicians. I could interpret it as an attempt to pass of soft-pornography as scholarship. There are many times more offensive books in the market. What does surprise me is how this particular case got some much publicity and attention? But then, life does not always follow logic. Sincerely, Vishal Agarwal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Prof Larse, I would argue exactly your way if I were in your place. But whatever is going on is not good for Indology as a discipline. Indians had always held Indology in high esteem, from what I heard from my elders. Whatever bad blook spilled on these boards for last 10 years (regarding the question whether Indology truly represents Indic subjects, the AIT/AMT debates) hardly reached the living rooms of Indians; and nobody would want to annoy guests at home with that kind of stuff. I am afraid things may change, to the worse. Would any Indological journal accept a synopsis of the book in question? If not, I believe it shouldn't be a big deal to disown the book as 'not Indology', as the book is not supported by any known texts. Kindly note that MLBD claims to be an Indological publisher. When the book is not Indology any more their withdrawal makes sense. Best regards Bhadraiah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 INDOLOGY, "Lars Martin Fosse" <lmfosse@o...> wrote: > There are, however, some problems that won't go away, even if >scholars try to be sensitive. For instance, there is no doubt that >Shiva's linga is a phallos - this is verifiable in various ways. Yet, >most Hindus do not think about the linga as a phallos, they see it >as a cosmic symbol, and some might be shocked if the origin of the >symbol was pointed out. It is a well-known fact that sensibilities >change with time, and the people who once introduced the linga as a >religious symbol did not think of it as something shocking or bad, >to the contrary. Scholars all over the world will study old texts, cultures and art, with aid from church or otherwise. Now that the world is much more interconnected, awareness is spreading. "Discourses on Siva : proceedings of a symposium on the nature of religious imagery" / edited and with an introduction by Michael W. Meister. Publisher: Philadelphia : University of Pennsylvania Press, 1984 has essays on Siva lingam. The earliest Hindu monument is the Gudimallam temple near Madras and Tirupati. It's dated now to 3rd to 2nd century BCE, Ananda Coomaraswamy has written about the Gudimallam lingam, the cosmic pillar is clearly a phallic symbol in origins: http://www.gunn.co.nz/anand/hinduism/lingum.html What is interesting is the dwarf carrying the Gudimallan Shiva with a parasu axe in his hand. Excavation by the ASI led by I. Kartikeya Sarma shows the dwarf as either creature living in water - either an alligator reptile or fish. The alligator mouth in some ways is like the elephant proboscis. Philip Rawson, Indian art, Studio Vista:Dutton Picturebook, 1972 Look in p. 9 "Drawing of seal representing female in intercourse with a phallic crocodile, c 2000 BC, stone, from Harappa". Gharial is related to the tamil word, karaa. Rawson's sketch is based on M.S.Vats 1943, Vol. II, Plate XCIII (H-180A&B). The gharial alligator shown by rawson is almost like that in Fig. 10.1.d (p.180, Parpola, Deciphering the Indus script). Two beautiful gharial descriptions from Mohenhjadaro (amulets worn for fertility - for children or plant harvest?): http://www.harappa.com/script/parpola5.html Another is the unicorn deity, Rishyashringa and his associations have been discussed in Indological works also. ------------- Alice Getty, Ganesa (1936), R. L. Brown, Ganesh: studies of an Asian god, SUNY: 1991, ... many have discussed Ganapati. and Oedipus story. A.K. Ramanujan, early in his career, wrote on oedipus myth in India, perhaps he tells the same. I remember seeing erotic Ganesh idols from South East Asia and Far East. There was a similar controversy back in 1930s and 40s in Tamil Nadu. The rationalists like EVR Naicker and Annadurai mentioned the oedipal myths about Vinayakar. Maramalai aTikaL opposed in public debates, Atikal sais "en tAy kaLaGkam aRRavaL" (my mother (Parvati) is blemishelss) or some thing like that. E.Leach, Pulleyar and the Lord Buddha, Psychoanalysis and the Psychoanalytic review (1962): 80-102 perhaps tells these as pulleyar is the colloquial for "piLLaiyaar" in Lanka. See Indonesian tantric temple: http://asiaforvisitors.com/indonesia/java/central/solo/sukah/ (Ganesh ?? there) http://asiaforvisitors.com/indonesia/java/central/solo/sukah/fullsize/frie ze8.jpg Regards, N. Ganesan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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