Panini sutras memorized by 3 year-olds.

[Guest guest]

Walter Ong, S.J., the scholar of Renaissance studies and above all of

orality-literacy interactions, somewhere says that in Jesuit schools in

the first centuries of the Society it was a standard punishment for

misbehavior to keep a boy after classes until he had memorized 100 lines

of Latin verse. I presume this would mean at the very most a couple of

hours, since the teachers themselves eventually have other things to do.

These however would be at the equivalent of a modern middle or

secondary school.

 

It's notorious, at least in the U.S., that little children want to hear

their favorite bedtimes stories over and over in a totally unvarying

verbal form, and will correct parents if they make a mistake.

 

Interesting question to follow up on this: Do Indian etc. children

getting stories in a non-written form from their grannies insist on

verbal invariance? If they do, it would affect the Lord-Parry thesis on

verbal literature.

 

Allen Thrasher

 

 

 

Allen W. Thrasher, Ph.D.

Senior Reference Librarian

Southern Asia Section

Asian Division

Library of Congress

Jefferson Building 150

101 Independence Ave., S.E.

Washington, DC 20540-4810

tel. 202-707-3732

fax 202-707-1724

athr

The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Library

of Congress.

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, "Allen W Thrasher" <athr@l...> wrote:

 

> Interesting question to follow up on this: Do Indian etc. children

> getting stories in a non-written form from their grannies insist on

> verbal invariance? If they do, it would affect the Lord-Parry

thesis on

> verbal literature.

>

> Allen Thrasher

 

My maternal grandmother was a great storyteller. We used to look

forward to her bedtime stories when we visited our native place... I

don't remember any of us siblings and/or cousins insisting on verbal

invariance. Most times we just listened to her in wonderment and a

somewhat soporofic state after consuming the obligatory "thayir oxide"

i.e curd rice.

 

My daughter used to look at me askance if I improvise while reading a

book to her, even while running my fingers over the words, but

didn't complain. That was when she couldn't read.

 

However when I tell her stories, she loves any amount of yarn that I

spin even on very standard tales like Rama and the squirrel.

 

-Srini.

[Guest guest]

A few years ago, one of these Maharashtrian Veda reciters, Shri.

Madhav Ganesh Joshi, from NIpani, published a book

"Svarayuktaa Ashtaadhyaayii", 1992 (Sadhakashram, Alandi,

Pune). I met him in Pune and got a copy of his book from him.

The book presents an accented text of the Ashtadhyayi based on

a manuscript, evidently used by the Vaidikas. Interestingly, the

book has a preface by Professor S.D. Joshi in English, where

S.D. Joshi analyses the accent markings on this text, and

concludes: "The conclusion I draw from what I have noted is that

the manuscript which is obviously meant as a help for pandits

during recitation does not strictly follow the paninian rules of

accentuation, both as regards word-or-sentence accent, and as

regards technical accent. But from what I heard from Mr.

Nipanikar Shastri I understand that Vaidika Dashagranthi

pandits like Vedamurti Ghaisas Shastri from Poona have

assured Mr. Nipanikar Shastri that the accentuation given by the

manuscript is exactly that which they have learnt for purposes of

recitation."

 

Michael Witzel is evidently not aware of the value of recounting

the exact numerical location of a Panini sutra in the traditional

recitation. The tradition has devised an elaborate system of

quickly recovering the exact number of a given rule. Each of the

Paadas of the Ashtadhyayi is assigned a mnemonic key

consisting of the first word of rule 1, 20, 40, 60 etc, and the

number of remaining rules (smaller than 20). For example, the

key for the 1st Paada of the first Adhyaya is:

 

v.rddhir-aadyantavad-avyayiibhaava.h-pratyayasyaluk-pa~ncadaz

a

 

There are 32 such keys. A reciter who knows the whole text by

heart starts reciting from a given sutra until he hits one of the

markers in one of these keys. This happens in the recitation of

20 or less rules, and one can immediately figure out the exact

number of the rule. Knowing the exact number of a given rule is

important in deciding which rule will override the other rule.

 

Madhav Deshpande

 

 

INDOLOGY, "vishalsagarwal

<vishalsagarwal>" <vishalsagarwal> wrote:

> I have heard that amongst Maharashtrian Brahmins, an

accented text of

> the Ashtadhyayi was recited as a part of their

Rgvedaadhyayana, at

> least till the 1950's. It was said that the text was 1 of the 10

> works the Rgvedi Deshastha brahmins were supported to

memorize.

> Does anyone have any further information on this 'accented'

text of

> Panini?

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Vishal

>

> INDOLOGY, "deshpandem

<mmdesh@U...>"

> <mmdesh@U...> wrote:

> > The last time I personally heard a child recite the Ashtadhyayi

> > was sometime in the late (or was it early?) sixties in Pune.

Pt.

> > Athalekar of Pune had trained his young daughter to recite

the

> > Ashtadhyayi and the Bhagavadgita. Given a sutra she could

> > immediately give its number. Given a number, she could give

the

> > rule. Given a word, she would recite all the sutras containing

that

> > word. She was eight or nine years old at that time. She did

not

> > understand the meaning of the rules at this time.

> >

> > Madhav Deshpande

> >

[Guest guest]

INDOLOGY, "Allen W Thrasher" <athr@l...> wrote:

> It's notorious, at least in the U.S., that little children want to hear

> their favorite bedtimes stories over and over in a totally unvarying

> verbal form, and will correct parents if they make a mistake.

>

> Interesting question to follow up on this: Do Indian etc. children

> getting stories in a non-written form from their grannies insist on

> verbal invariance? If they do, it would affect the Lord-Parry thesis on

> verbal literature.

 

Indian children do not insist on verbal invariance. Acc. to

prof. M. Deshpande even the Rgveda in the original didn't have

retroflexes, but found later by means of slow creep phenom.

"However, the fact that the present text of the Rgveda has retroflexion

does not at all prove that there must have been retroflexion in

the original compositions of the RV" p. 257, Aryan and Non-Aryan

in India, 1979

 

p. 239, M. Deshpande, 1979, (same book)

"Grierson (1929) has given a fascinating account of how

the Kashmiri text of LallA-vAkyAni, originally composed

in the later half of the 14th century, has been preserved orally

to the present day without ever having been written down.

Grierson (1929:74) points out that "save for a few forms

that have remained unchanged ... her verses are in what is

practically modern Kashmiri." However, the text of the

Mahaanayaprakasa was composed in the 15th century and was

written down at the time it was composed, and hence its

language is preserved without any further change. Grierson

describes the "unconscious" change taking place in a precodification

oral tradition: "Each hymn [ of LallA-vAkyAni] was handed down

from teacher to pupil though 5 centuries, care being taken to

preserve the text unchanged. But during all this time

the language was insensibly changing, and, as there was

no written record of the originals in the form in which

they were first uttered, the language of the hymns

insensibly changed at the same time. The reciters, it is

hardly necessary to point out, were unaware of the change

of language that was going on. In each generation that was

slight, and was not noticeable, but the total of the changes

at the end of five centuries was very great indeed.... It was

so gradual that no one was ever aware that any change was takingplace

at all" (1929:75). Grierson clearly perceived that the same

must have happened in the case of the Vedic texts before they

were codified by the redacters. He says: "Unfortunately,

for the Veda, we have nothing corr. to the Mahanayaprakasa,

i.e. nothing written, and fixed in writing, at about the time

that the oldest Vedic hymns were composed, so that we were

unable to guage the difference between the original form of the

hymns and the form given to us by the Vyasa (i.e. the redactor);

but the parallel case of the Mahanayapraka'sa, is instructive,

and shows us that the difference must have been great. In other

words, the Rgveda, as we have it now, is couched in a

modernized form of the language in which the oldest hymns

were originally composed" (1929:76-77)."