Must Read....

February 5, 2003

Hi guys

I stumbled upon this on a casual reading.....really intersting to know that our

ancient education system not only created scholars but also created a "Beggar

Free INDIA".

Munitrayan.

Origin of the Western subversive agenda in India

It was February 1835, a time when the British were striving to take control of

the whole of India. Lord Macaulay, a historian and a politician, made a

historical speech in the British Parliament, commonly referred to as The

Minutes, which struck a blow at the centuries old system of Indian education.

His words were to this effect: I have traveled across the length and breadth of

India and I have not seen one person who is a beggar, who is a thief. Such

wealth I have seen in this country, such high moral values, people of such

calibre, that I do not think we would ever conquer this country, unless we break

the very backbone of this nation, which is her spiritual and cultural heritage,

and, therefore, I propose that we replace her old and ancient education system,

her culture, for if the Indians think that all that is foreign and English is

good and greater than their own, they will lose their self-esteem, their native

self-culture and they will become what we want them, a truly dominated nation.

(Source: The Awakening Ray, Vol. 4 No. 5, The Gnostic Centre)

Reproduced in Niti issue of April, 2002 at p. 10 - a periodic publication of

Bharat Vikas Parishad, Delhi.

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February 17, 2003

, Muni Trayam <munitraya>

wrote:

>

> I propose that we replace her old and ancient education system, her

culture, for if the Indians think that all that is foreign and

English is good and greater than their own, they will lose their self-

esteem, their native self-culture and they will become what we want

them, a truly dominated nation.

If this was true, the only conclusion is

that we did not value our age old ancient

educational system much anyway, for, we so

easily surrendered to the designs of the

English.

-- Dileepan

February 20, 2003

dear sir,

ur 100% true . we dontgive due respect to our ancient educationakl system . in

olden days the aim of education was the all round developemnt of the human .

nowadays its sole aim is to win bread. thats y we brahmins seeking breads do not

do vedaadyana and do not read saastras.

off all the creaters man is superior. even in man only the bhramin males are

allowed to learn vedas. but we having a birth like this do not do our duty. is

it not the duty of us to save these traditional values?

think over

dasan kaasyapah

"dileepan <dileepan" <dileepan wrote:--- In

, Muni Trayam <munitraya>

wrote:

>

> I propose that we replace her old and ancient education system, her

culture, for if the Indians think that all that is foreign and

English is good and greater than their own, they will lose their self-

esteem, their native self-culture and they will become what we want

them, a truly dominated nation.

If this was true, the only conclusion is

that we did not value our age old ancient

educational system much anyway, for, we so

easily surrendered to the designs of the

English.

-- Dileepan

Srirangasri-

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February 20, 2003

Dear Sri Dileepan,

Whether it is due to the reason deduced by Muni Trayam or the conclusion

inferred by you, certain facts are to be faced and i am sure this does not

bode well for the future.

i) The Gurukula system is almost fading out and there is a severe shortage

of Vidyarthis opting for the "old & ancient education system",

ii) Culture is a different focus altogether, that cannot be so easily

submerged or replaced; in spite of all this "westernisation" the roots are

still very firm but culture is a shock as many Indians find out today, they

want the material comforts arising out of that is "foreign and English" but

yearn for the values of our ancient culture - a strange admixture that will

not happen,

iii) In our 'secular' society we need to strike a balance,

iv) how do we continue to reap the benefits of the modern e-age but still

retain the roots of our culture,

v) this is a dilemma faced by many ABCD's and others of the Indian Diaspora

to start with but this query is uppermost in the minds of every one of us as

the internet has erased all boundaries,

vi) we find the many youngsters employed in IT services' companies

practically living or imitating the life of Westerners (the current divorce

rates in these metros (in the forward communities) are alarming,

vii) we also find many abroad living the life of religiousity ((e.g.

yourself, Satagopan, Nadathur Mathavan, Rajaji, Rangarajan (in London)

etc.,)) and at the same time combining the life of modernity and affluence

derived solely out of your exteme hard work and brilliance in your chosen

professions,

This is a very very serious situation and i do not claim to know the

answers.

But I do know that ALL of us have to get together and take immediate steps

to revive the traditional Sanskrit education which to state the least is in

utter doldrums and has to be the strongest doses of Oxygen.

By a separate mail i will keep you advised of the steps that i have been

privileged to take under the Niyamanam of H.H. Srimad Andavan. This is

equivalent to the blooming of one flower and i am afraid that unless a

hundred such flowers bloom together the future for sustaining our Culture

and oue Values will be very bleak.

If that is the will the Lord then so be it.

Warmest regards.

RR.

-

<dileepan

<>

Tuesday, February 18, 2003 12:03 AM

Re: Must Read....

> , Muni Trayam <munitraya>

> wrote:

> >

> > I propose that we replace her old and ancient education system, her

> culture, for if the Indians think that all that is foreign and

> English is good and greater than their own, they will lose their self-

> esteem, their native self-culture and they will become what we want

> them, a truly dominated nation.

>

> If this was true, the only conclusion is

> that we did not value our age old ancient

> educational system much anyway, for, we so

> easily surrendered to the designs of the

> English.

>

> -- Dileepan

>

> Srirangasri-

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

February 20, 2003

--- RR <rr wrote:

> Dear Sri Dileepan,

> vi) we find the many youngsters employed in IT services' companies

> practically living or imitating the life of Westerners (the current

> divorce

> rates in these metros (in the forward communities) are alarming,

> This is a very very serious situation and i do not claim to know

> the> answers.

>> But I do know that ALL of us have to get together and take

> immediate steps> to revive the traditional Sanskrit education which

to state the> least is in> utter doldrums and has to be the strongest

doses of Oxygen.

Dear friends,

Adiyane has been following this thread of discussion on the list for

some days. It keeps coming up again and again in one form or the

other in all lists. It seems to me it is the eternal schism in the

brahmin's soul and troubles him to no end like a recurring relapse.

Re; this subject I have always admired what the Sage of Kanchi, Sri

Chandrasekharendra Saraswati had to say in his book "deivattin

kural". He may not be our own 'achArya' but the substance and

significance of what he said cannot be ignored by us. And it is so

thought provoking and passionate it is simply marvellous. It is

reproduced below for your information.

Regards,

dAsan,

Sudarshan

QUOTE:

“People today are caught between two groups holding opposing views.

On the one side they feel the pull of individuals like (me) who

maintain that they must take to the path shown by the (vedic)

sAstrA-s; on the other hand they find themselves drawn in the

opposite direction by reformers who want these “sAstrA-s” to be

changed….”

“Even now there are people who at heart long for a life of peace

lived according to the old (vedic) tradition. But they do not have

the courage to give up the either the trammels of modern life or the

feeling of pride in the changes effected under reformist movements.

They are in an awkward predicament because they are not fully

committed to the traditional way of life or to the new.

“Let me tell you how people cannot decide for themselves… of how they

are neither here nor there. In most of their homes you will see

Gandhiji’s portrait and mine too. Now Gandhiji advocated widow

marriage… and I advocate wearing the “sikhA”. Those who respect

Gandhiji do not however have the courage to marry widows. Those who

say they respect me also do not have the courage to wear “sikhA”.

Poor people are these! They do not have any moorings and keep

swinging between one set of beliefs and another. Instead, I tell you,

we must have courage of our convictions and unflinching faith in the

“sAstrA-s”.”

“If we start to make small compromises in our adherence to the

sAstrAs it will eventually mean following only such scriptural

practices as we find convenient in our everyday life. Some people

tell me with all good intentions: “The dharmasAstrAs are the creation

of r-shis. You are like a r-shi. So you must make (appropriate)

changes in the sAstrA-s in keeping with the times”. Their view is

that just as we remove weeds from the fields we must change (vedic)

customs and duties according to our times. If I take out some rites

and observances from the sAstrA now, thinking them to be weeds, later

another man will turn up and remove some more for the same reason. At

this rate, a time will come when we will not be able to distinguish

the weed from the crop and the entire (vedic) field will become

barren.”

“It is my duty to see that the sAstrAs are preserved as they are…

founded as they are in the Vedas which are nothing but what the

“parabrahmham” has ordained. I have no authority to change them.”

“We must not give up the sAstra-ic way of life thinking it to be

difficult to follow. If we are not carried away by the glitter of

modern mundane life, if we reduce our wants and do not run after

money, there will be no need to abandon the customs and rites laid

down by our canonical texts. If we are not obsessed with making money

there will be plenty of time to think of the Lord. And peace and

contentment and happiness will reign.”

(unquote)

********** ************* *************

Continuing to quote the same “AchAryA”, here is another extract from

his speech:

(quote)

“The brahmin, if he is true to his dharma, HAS to spend all his time

in learning and chanting the vedas, in performing sacrifices, in

preserving the sAstrA etc. What will he do for a living? If he goes

in search of money or material he WILL NOT BE ABLE TO ATTEND TO HIS

LIFETIME MISSION…. and this mission IS NOT ACCOMPLISHED ON A

PART-TIME BASIS. And if he takes up some other work for his

livelihood, he is likely to become lax in the pursuit of his dharma.

It would be like taking medicine without the necessary diet regimen:

the benign power gained by the brahmin from his vedic learning will

be reduced and there will be a corresponding dimunition in the good

accruing to mankind from his work.”

“This is one reason why brahmins alone are permitted by the sAstrA-s

to beg for a living (“Unchavrtti”). But the sAstra also has it that

the brahmin must not accept more charity than what is needed for his

bare sustenance. If he received anything in excess, he would be

tempted to seek sensual pleasures and thereby an impediment would be

placed to his inner advancement. There is also the danger that he

would become submissive to the donor and of his twisting the sastrA

to the latter’s liking.

“The vedic religion prospered in the past … because people belonging

to all varnA-s contributed generously to the brahmin's upkeep and to

the nurturing of the vedic tradition. In Tamilnadu the nAttukOtta

nagarattArs, the kommutti chettis and the vEllAlas raised funds for

Vedic institutions. They felt the vedas were essential for social

good.

“If the brahmin had not been tempted by the European (or American)

life-style and if he were willing to live austerely according to the

dictates of the sAstrA, other castes (even today) would come forward

to help him. It is not that the others deserted the brahmin. He

himself ran away from his dharma, from his agrahArA, from his village

and from the vedic school because of his new appetite for the life of

luxury made possible with the new technology of the West. He forgot

the high ideals… All told, the argument that the brahmin was

compelled to abandon his dharma because he was denied his daily bread

does not hold water. We cannot but admit that the brahmin became

greedy, that he yearned far more than what he needed for sustenance.”

“Let us concede that the brahmin left his village because he could

not feed himself there and came to a city like Madras. But did he

find contentment here? What do we see today in actual practice?

Suppose a brahmin receives a salary of Rs.1000/- in Madras today. If

he gets a job in Delhi with double the salary he runs off there. When

he goes to Delhi he would abandon totally the dharma he was able to

practise at least to a small extent in Madras. Later if he were

offered US$4000/- a month in America he would leave his motherland

for that country, lured by the prospect of earning a fortune. There

in the US he would become totally alienated from his religion, from

his dharma, from all his traditions. The brahmin is willing to do

anything, go to any extent, for the sake of money…. The usual excuse

trotted out for the brahmin deserting his dharma does not wash…. Were

he true to his dharma the brahmin would tell himself, “I will

continue to adhere to my dharma come what may, even at the risk of

death.”

“There is no point in suggesting what people belonging to the past

generations should have done. I would urge the present generation to

perform duties that the past generation neglected to perform. To

repeat, you must not forsake your dharma even on the pain of death.

Are we going to remain deathless? As things stand today, we

accumulate money, suffer humiliation and earn the jealousy of others

and finally we die losing caste by not remaining true to our dharma.

Is it not better then to starve and yet be attached firmly to our

dharma so long as there is breath in us? Is not such loyalty to our

dharma a matter of pride? Why should we care about how others see us,

whether they honour us or speak ill of us? So long as we do not

compete with them for jobs they will not have any cause for jealousy

or resentment against us. Let them call us backward or stupid or

think we are not capable of keeping abreast of the times. Are we not

now already their butt of ridicule? Let us be true to our dharma in

the face of the mockery of others, even in the face of death. Is not

such a lot preferable to suffering the slings of scorn and criticism

earned by forsaking our dharma for the sake of filling our belly?”

“People ask me: “What is the remedy then today? Do you expect all

brahmins to leave their new life-style and return to vedic learning?”

“Whether or not I expect them to do so and whether or not such a step

seems possible, I must ask them to do so.

“Where is the need for a “guru-peeTam” or a seat on which an AchAryA

is installed if I am to keep my mouth shut and watch idly as the

dharma that is the source of everything is being endangered?

“Even if it seems impossible for brahmins to return to their

varnAshrama-dharma it must be shown to be possible in practice… that

is the whole purpose of the institution called “mutta-s”. They must

harness all their energies towards the attainment of this goal.

“It is not for me to say that the return of the brahmins to their

vedic dharma is not possible. To take such a view would be contrary

to our very dharma. It is up to you all to make it possible in

practice or not to make it possible. All I can do is to keep

reminding you of the message of the dharmasAstrA-s”.

(unquote)

************** **************** *************

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February 21, 2003

Dear Sri krishna Tatachar,

I think ur wrong in ur views. Sorry to say so. In our visishtaadvaita smapradaya

both Karmakanda and janakandaare considered as single Sastra and its a must for

every one of us to perform all those nitya karmas till we r here in this world.

It is said so in SRIBHASHAYAM. What i meant in my previous mail is nowadays we

r not taking care for the vedaadyana and its a pity that our soceity which is

bound to save vedas is not doing so. SAVING OF VEDAS ARE PROTECTED ALL THEESE

YEARS ONLY BY LEARNING AND OUR GENERETION IS NOT DOING SO.nowadays who learn

vedas also go to paurohityam where they can make more money and gradually they

forget the vaedas. Only a few at kanchi and else where are good in vedasand

otheres are using it only to win their bread

what a pity I dont want to hurt anybody . if any body fell so plz pardon me

dasan kaashaypah

Tatachar wrote:I think we can look at the whole thing from a different

perspective:

Vedas have two parts: karma khanDam and jNAna khAnDam.

Karma khANDam emphasis was more on rituals for material gains, harmony, and

prosperity of the individual as well as the community and nation as a whole.

Following this guaranteed only swargam,

Indra padavi etc. and never mOxam. For liberation, one needed to advance to

jnAna khANDam portion (the Upanishads).

In a way our college degrees or any kind of vocational training serves the part

of karma khANDam. We do put in solid 15-20 years of training. Here again greater

the effort greater the potential for material reward (just like 100 yAgas etc).

The means of livelihood is dicatated by our inerent attitudes

(satva-raja-tamas)and aptitudes(brahmana, xatriya etc.).

We are all equally eligible for Moxam

(the purpose of jnAna khANDam part, which we can and will naturally follow as we

mature. This can happen in one life or the other, in ine way or teh other).

Thus, the karma khADa of VedAs are temporal in style and details. Even 1000s of

years ago they had 5 ways of chanting vedAs. However the jnAna khANDam is

eternal and immutable. It is presented to us in the simplified form called

BhagavadgItA.

The truth implored here is eternal.

Sometimes we get mixed up and don't know what is more important. Thus we waste

time seeking out for darba grass or a by gone tradition or worse yet, feel

guilty for not being able to follow Vedic rituals, while that time could be

better used to excell in our profession and pursue jnAna khAnDam part of our

scriptures.

K. Sreekrishna Tatachar.

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February 21, 2003

Hi all,

Namasakaram,

I don't know how qualified I am to talk in this forum considering the

fact that I know very little abt scriptures but I thought I shd express

my two cents worth...

The discussion centers around that fact that as Brahmins, the main task

is to give up material benefits and focus on adhering to the shastras

and follow all the rituals/ customs outlined in our vedas, upanishads

etc... Question is are we just Brahmins alone? We have engineers,

administrators, businessman amindst us...basically all kinds of

professions, we all have to follow our profession rules etc.... Not all

those people gave up Brahminical customs, rules because they wanted to

just to focus on money itself, most of us are in our fields because we

also happen to love our profession too....

Lots of people in this forum are born in Brahmin family and by virtue

of it, we feel that we must follow the rules and skirt the so called

material pursuits etc. Also there is an underlying implication that

there is a virtue in following the so called Brahmin duties etc....

My point is we in our professions must follow whatever is the duties of

the profession and it is as much as virtue as following our job duties

as much as we follow the Vedic rituals,

Srivaishnavas are people inclusive of all professions as long as they

surrender to The Lord in a selfless manner. Azhvars exemplify that....

All our epics embody that character.... Counter argument may be the

fact that Srivaishnavm itself came

The message from Kanch Acharya applies to people who wants to be

Brahmins but could not do so, the major challenge ahead is how do we

carry the message of Srivaishnavm towards people in non-brahmanical

professions without feeling any regrets about it....

Please forgive me if I had offended anybody, I donot want to sound like

an upstart and if I do, please forgive me

Dasan,

Mugundhan

--- "M.K.Sudarshan" <sampathkumar_2000 wrote:

>

> --- RR <rr wrote:

> > Dear Sri Dileepan,

> > vi) we find the many youngsters employed in IT services' companies

> > practically living or imitating the life of Westerners (the current

> > divorce

> > rates in these metros (in the forward communities) are alarming,

> > This is a very very serious situation and i do not claim to know

> > the> answers.

> >> But I do know that ALL of us have to get together and take

> > immediate steps> to revive the traditional Sanskrit education which

> to state the> least is in> utter doldrums and has to be the strongest

> doses of Oxygen.

>

> Dear friends,

>

> Adiyane has been following this thread of discussion on the list for

> some days. It keeps coming up again and again in one form or the

> other in all lists. It seems to me it is the eternal schism in the

> brahmin's soul and troubles him to no end like a recurring relapse.

>

> Re; this subject I have always admired what the Sage of Kanchi, Sri

> Chandrasekharendra Saraswati had to say in his book "deivattin

> kural". He may not be our own 'achArya' but the substance and

> significance of what he said cannot be ignored by us. And it is so

> thought provoking and passionate it is simply marvellous. It is

> reproduced below for your information.

>

> Regards,

> dAsan,

> Sudarshan

>

> QUOTE:

>

> “People today are caught between two groups holding opposing views.

> On the one side they feel the pull of individuals like (me) who

> maintain that they must take to the path shown by the (vedic)

> sAstrA-s; on the other hand they find themselves drawn in the

> opposite direction by reformers who want these “sAstrA-s” to be

> changed….”

>

> “Even now there are people who at heart long for a life of peace

> lived according to the old (vedic) tradition. But they do not have

> the courage to give up the either the trammels of modern life or the

> feeling of pride in the changes effected under reformist movements.

> They are in an awkward predicament because they are not fully

> committed to the traditional way of life or to the new.

>

> “Let me tell you how people cannot decide for themselves… of how they

> are neither here nor there. In most of their homes you will see

> Gandhiji’s portrait and mine too. Now Gandhiji advocated widow

> marriage… and I advocate wearing the “sikhA”. Those who respect

> Gandhiji do not however have the courage to marry widows. Those who

> say they respect me also do not have the courage to wear “sikhA”.

> Poor people are these! They do not have any moorings and keep

> swinging between one set of beliefs and another. Instead, I tell you,

> we must have courage of our convictions and unflinching faith in the

> “sAstrA-s”.”

>

> “If we start to make small compromises in our adherence to the

> sAstrAs it will eventually mean following only such scriptural

> practices as we find convenient in our everyday life. Some people

> tell me with all good intentions: “The dharmasAstrAs are the creation

> of r-shis. You are like a r-shi. So you must make (appropriate)

> changes in the sAstrA-s in keeping with the times”. Their view is

> that just as we remove weeds from the fields we must change (vedic)

> customs and duties according to our times. If I take out some rites

> and observances from the sAstrA now, thinking them to be weeds, later

> another man will turn up and remove some more for the same reason. At

> this rate, a time will come when we will not be able to distinguish

> the weed from the crop and the entire (vedic) field will become

> barren.”

>

> “It is my duty to see that the sAstrAs are preserved as they are…

> founded as they are in the Vedas which are nothing but what the

> “parabrahmham” has ordained. I have no authority to change them.”

>

> “We must not give up the sAstra-ic way of life thinking it to be

> difficult to follow. If we are not carried away by the glitter of

> modern mundane life, if we reduce our wants and do not run after

> money, there will be no need to abandon the customs and rites laid

> down by our canonical texts. If we are not obsessed with making money

> there will be plenty of time to think of the Lord. And peace and

> contentment and happiness will reign.”

>

> (unquote)

> ********** ************* *************

>

> Continuing to quote the same “AchAryA”, here is another extract from

> his speech:

>

> (quote)

> “The brahmin, if he is true to his dharma, HAS to spend all his time

> in learning and chanting the vedas, in performing sacrifices, in

> preserving the sAstrA etc. What will he do for a living? If he goes

> in search of money or material he WILL NOT BE ABLE TO ATTEND TO HIS

> LIFETIME MISSION…. and this mission IS NOT ACCOMPLISHED ON A

> PART-TIME BASIS. And if he takes up some other work for his

> livelihood, he is likely to become lax in the pursuit of his dharma.

> It would be like taking medicine without the necessary diet regimen:

> the benign power gained by the brahmin from his vedic learning will

> be reduced and there will be a corresponding dimunition in the good

> accruing to mankind from his work.”

>

> “This is one reason why brahmins alone are permitted by the sAstrA-s

> to beg for a living (“Unchavrtti”). But the sAstra also has it that

> the brahmin must not accept more charity than what is needed for his

> bare sustenance. If he received anything in excess, he would be

> tempted to seek sensual pleasures and thereby an impediment would be

> placed to his inner advancement. There is also the danger that he

> would become submissive to the donor and of his twisting the sastrA

> to the latter’s liking.

>

> “The vedic religion prospered in the past … because people belonging

> to all varnA-s contributed generously to the brahmin's upkeep and to

> the nurturing of the vedic tradition. In Tamilnadu the nAttukOtta

> nagarattArs, the kommutti chettis and the vEllAlas raised funds for

> Vedic institutions. They felt the vedas were essential for social

> good.

>

> “If the brahmin had not been tempted by the European (or American)

> life-style and if he were willing to live austerely according to the

> dictates of the sAstrA, other castes (even today) would come forward

> to help him. It is not that the others deserted the brahmin. He

> himself ran away from his dharma, from his agrahArA, from his village

> and from the vedic school because of his new appetite for the life of

> luxury made possible with the new technology of the West. He forgot

> the high ideals… All told, the argument that the brahmin was

> compelled to abandon his dharma because he was denied his daily bread

> does not hold water. We cannot but admit that the brahmin became

> greedy, that he yearned far more than what he needed for sustenance.”

>

> “Let us concede that the brahmin left his village because he could

> not feed himself there and came to a city like Madras. But did he

> find contentment here? What do we see today in actual practice?

> Suppose a brahmin receives a salary of Rs.1000/- in Madras today. If

> he gets a job in Delhi with double the salary he runs off there. When

> he goes to Delhi he would abandon totally the dharma he was able to

> practise at least to a small extent in Madras. Later if he were

> offered US$4000/- a month in America he would leave his motherland

> for that country, lured by the prospect of earning a fortune. There

> in the US he would become totally alienated from his religion, from

> his dharma, from all his traditions. The brahmin is willing to do

> anything, go to any extent, for the sake of money…. The usual excuse

> trotted out for the brahmin deserting his dharma does not wash…. Were

> he true to his dharma the brahmin would tell himself, “I will

> continue to adhere to my dharma come what may, even at the risk of

> death.”

>

> “There is no point in suggesting what people belonging to the past

> generations should have done. I would urge the present generation to

> perform duties that the past generation neglected to perform. To

> repeat, you must not forsake your dharma even on the pain of death.

> Are we going to remain deathless? As things stand today, we

> accumulate money, suffer humiliation and earn the jealousy of others

> and finally we die losing caste by not remaining true to our dharma.

> Is it not better then to starve and yet be attached firmly to our

> dharma so long as there is breath in us? Is not such loyalty to our

> dharma a matter of pride? Why should we care about how others see us,

> whether they honour us or speak ill of us? So long as we do not

> compete with them for jobs they will not have any cause for jealousy

> or resentment against us. Let them call us backward or stupid or

> think we are not capable of keeping abreast of the times. Are we not

> now already their butt of ridicule? Let us be true to our dharma in

> the face of the mockery of others, even in the face of death. Is not

> such a lot preferable to suffering the slings of scorn and criticism

> earned by forsaking our dharma for the sake of filling our belly?”

>

> “People ask me: “What is the remedy then today? Do you expect all

> brahmins to leave their new life-style and return to vedic learning?”

>

> “Whether or not I expect them to do so and whether or not such a step

> seems possible, I must ask them to do so.

>

> “Where is the need for a “guru-peeTam” or a seat on which an AchAryA

> is installed if I am to keep my mouth shut and watch idly as the

> dharma that is the source of everything is being endangered?

>

> “Even if it seems impossible for brahmins to return to their

> varnAshrama-dharma it must be shown to be possible in practice… that

> is the whole purpose of the institution called “mutta-s”. They must

> harness all their energies towards the attainment of this goal.

>

> “It is not for me to say that the return of the brahmins to their

> vedic dharma is not possible. To take such a view would be contrary

> to our very dharma. It is up to you all to make it possible in

> practice or not to make it possible. All I can do is to keep

> reminding you of the message of the dharmasAstrA-s”.

>

> (unquote)

>

> ************** **************** *************

>

> Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more

> http://taxes./

>

> Srirangasri-

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more

http://taxes./

February 22, 2003

--- Mugundhan Varadanarayanan <mugundv wrote:

> My point is we in our professions must follow whatever is the

> duties of> the profession and it is as much as virtue as following

our job> duties> as much as we follow the Vedic rituals,

************************

Dear Sir,

You make a good point but I think you can find the answer to your

question in the Kanchi AchArya's own quote (probably you might have

missed it while reading the quote y/day for the first time):

QUOTE:

> > “The brahmin, if he is true to his dharma, HAS to spend all his

> time> > in learning and chanting the vedas, in performing

sacrifices, in> > preserving the sAstrA etc. What will he do for a

living? If he

> goes> > in search of money or material he WILL NOT BE ABLE TO

ATTEND TO> HIS

> > LIFETIME MISSION…. and this mission IS NOT ACCOMPLISHED ON A

> > PART-TIME BASIS. And if he takes up some other work for his

> > livelihood, he is likely to become lax in the pursuit of his

> dharma.

> > It would be like taking medicine without the necessary diet

> regimen:> > the benign power gained by the brahmin from his vedic

learning> will be reduced and there will be a corresponding

dimunition in the good accruing to mankind from his work.”

UNQUOTE

Sir, I think the key words in the Kanchi achArya's quote is "good

accruing to mankind from his (the brahmin's) work".

In Indian society the work of brahmins dedicated solely to Vedic

pursuits used to be greatly valued by members of other

classes/communities. The work done by "full-time", dedicated

Vedaviths was seen to be important (though not always well

compensated, but that's a different matter altogether) since it

contributed greatly to the spiritual upliftment and well-being of

society as a whole. It is only when brahmins started taking a casual,

"part-time" approach to their Vedic life-mission that they rapidly

lost their credibility and respect in the eyes of the rest of

society. Nobody takes a "part-time" carpenter or plumber seriously.

So why would they take a "part-time" Vedavith seriously?

Please allow me to paraphrase for you the 'key' point that the Kanchi

achArya was making so that you can reflect upon it more deeply:

Society's conviction that there is enduring value in Vedic and

spiritual pursuit has to be at all times firm. If that conviction is

weakened, and nobody believes any longer there is any worth in such

activity, then the Vedic ethos and legacy will simply wither away to

the lasting detriment of Indian society. Now, who but brahmins

themselves -- and I mean credible "full-time brahmins" here -- who

can alone affirm society's conviction in the Vedas?

Please give this important matter some genuine thought (and not just

for sake of academic discussion on cyber-groups) and revert with

comments, if any. I appeal to bright young people like you to take

this matter seriously and do something about it in their lifetimes

for the sake of the Vedas. If this thread of discussion is not

welcome on this list you and others interested are welcome to

continue it on Tiruvengadam

Regards,

dAsan,

Sudarshan

Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more

http://taxes./

February 22, 2003

Respected Sir,

I agree with the points you raised. When we say a Brahmin, being a part

time Brahmin is not good. When a Brahmin moves away from his profession

because his faith is weakened on Vedas, then we have a serious problem

and its manifestation is very much obvious nowadays....

But my view point is that Srivaishnava and Brahmin are not exactly the

same. Most of the Azhvars are non-brahmins but they are sri vaishnavas.

There are lots of Brahmins who do not to the Vaishnava

philosophy. Lots of kings were srivaishnavas (Pandavas from

Mahabharatham are good eg, same with Kulasekara Azhvar etc). In these

cases, I feel what Kanch Acharya said is not applicable. His Holiness

spoke of people who took Brahmin profession and who did not do justice

to the same. In this case for people outside Brahmin fold, is giving up

material pursuits and seek exclusively knowledge the right thing to do?

I am not sure. Karma Yoga is as important as other yogas... I am an

engineer, I love my field. I have deep faith in Sriman Narayana. I

enjoy listening to Tamil Prabhandhams and feel humbled by the fact only

endless devotion can produce such profound and interesting verses and

this only increases my faith...

But am I a Brahmin? I come from a very traditional Brahmin family with

Ahobil Mutt Acharya as our Acharya and my home village of Thuvariman is

a devout Vaishanva village. But me learning or the desire to learn

Tamil Prabhandhams is not because of my family background but rather

the fact that faith is the key, Deep meanings in Prabhandhams and the

rich poetry in those songs could have occured only when Azhars felt the

presence of The Lord, and deep down I feel that I can never deny the

presence of Para Brahmam and unless I put utmost faith, I will never

find peace....

But should I renounce my job, go back to my agraharam and focus on

acquiring knowledge? I think that is not the right thing to do because

I chose engineering as my profession and it is my duty to shine on this

profession as enshrined in Karma Yoga.

If I chose to go back to my Brahmin background, I agree I must remain

committed to that full time, renounce material pursuits .... I must

follow my Acharya and try to follow the exact tradition without any

deviation.

My point is how do we draw to our fold other people who are not from

brahmin family but who have deep faith in the Lord? Because Vaishnava

fold is different from Brahmin fold and reaching out to people who are

not from Brahmin background but who believe in Sri Narayanan will make

sure that knowledge gained in vedas remain available to future

generations for ever....

I am willing to accept any criticisms to my view and if I am wrong, I

am willing to change myself, I am just a 27 year old guy trying to

understand things and i believe things are not as straightforward as I

say. Again, please accept my apologies in case I said something

offensive....

Dasan,

Mugundhan

--- "M.K.Sudarshan" <sampathkumar_2000 wrote:

>

> --- Mugundhan Varadanarayanan <mugundv wrote:

>

> > My point is we in our professions must follow whatever is the

> > duties of> the profession and it is as much as virtue as following

> our job> duties> as much as we follow the Vedic rituals,

>

> ************************

>

> Dear Sir,

>

> You make a good point but I think you can find the answer to your

> question in the Kanchi AchArya's own quote (probably you might have

> missed it while reading the quote y/day for the first time):

>

> QUOTE:

> > > “The brahmin, if he is true to his dharma, HAS to spend all his

> > time> > in learning and chanting the vedas, in performing

> sacrifices, in> > preserving the sAstrA etc. What will he do for a

> living? If he

> > goes> > in search of money or material he WILL NOT BE ABLE TO

> ATTEND TO> HIS

> > > LIFETIME MISSION…. and this mission IS NOT ACCOMPLISHED ON A

> > > PART-TIME BASIS. And if he takes up some other work for his

> > > livelihood, he is likely to become lax in the pursuit of his

> > dharma.

> > > It would be like taking medicine without the necessary diet

> > regimen:> > the benign power gained by the brahmin from his vedic

> learning> will be reduced and there will be a corresponding

> dimunition in the good accruing to mankind from his work.”

> UNQUOTE

>

> Sir, I think the key words in the Kanchi achArya's quote is "good

> accruing to mankind from his (the brahmin's) work".

>

> In Indian society the work of brahmins dedicated solely to Vedic

> pursuits used to be greatly valued by members of other

> classes/communities. The work done by "full-time", dedicated

> Vedaviths was seen to be important (though not always well

> compensated, but that's a different matter altogether) since it

> contributed greatly to the spiritual upliftment and well-being of

> society as a whole. It is only when brahmins started taking a casual,

> "part-time" approach to their Vedic life-mission that they rapidly

> lost their credibility and respect in the eyes of the rest of

> society. Nobody takes a "part-time" carpenter or plumber seriously.

> So why would they take a "part-time" Vedavith seriously?

>

> Please allow me to paraphrase for you the 'key' point that the Kanchi

> achArya was making so that you can reflect upon it more deeply:

>

> Society's conviction that there is enduring value in Vedic and

> spiritual pursuit has to be at all times firm. If that conviction is

> weakened, and nobody believes any longer there is any worth in such

> activity, then the Vedic ethos and legacy will simply wither away to

> the lasting detriment of Indian society. Now, who but brahmins

> themselves -- and I mean credible "full-time brahmins" here -- who

> can alone affirm society's conviction in the Vedas?

>

> Please give this important matter some genuine thought (and not just

> for sake of academic discussion on cyber-groups) and revert with

> comments, if any. I appeal to bright young people like you to take

> this matter seriously and do something about it in their lifetimes

> for the sake of the Vedas. If this thread of discussion is not

> welcome on this list you and others interested are welcome to

> continue it on Tiruvengadam

>

> Regards,

>

> dAsan,

> Sudarshan

>

> Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more

> http://taxes./

>

> Srirangasri-

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more

http://taxes./

February 23, 2003

/namastE Sri Mugundhan.

Your point of view is valid. What /kAJnci periyavAL says is that all should

encourage the practice of both the external and internal aspects delineated

in the /vEdAs. The external rites are the way to reach people and also they

have deep economic implications. Let me take an example:

Take professional sports --- I mean big-time sports. It involves a lot of

money and has great impact on the economy. But big sports does not produce

new wealth except indirectly. What it does is redistribution of wealth. That

is a little money is taken from each one of the fans and eventually reaches

some of the big stars and others who are directly invloved. It does provide

jobs to a number of intermediaries. But these jobs do not produce new

wealth.

A second example is Christmas, for example. But it is in a different light.

In all these examples, food is consumed, drinks gulped --- perhaps more

than at normal times. Festive moods and excitement do produce an increase in

consumption and these do produce new wealth in the form of production from

soil and manufacturing. Of course, souvenirs, insignia -- all of that are

also produced and they may be considered as new wealth.

Can you find a substitute? The ancients did find a means similar to this,

but which also produced new wealth in greater abundance and which does not

seem to have involved a large redistribution of wealth as big sports does.

These are our religious functions. Take for example: Right now we have /mAga

snAnam. This involves a large number of people travelling to sea shores and

river beds for an early morning bath about the time of sunrise. The event is

comparble to sports events for a series. A lot of money does exchange hands

and there is redistribution of wealth. But there is new wealth produced, if

I can assume, that everyone performs some alms in the form of food and does

an /arcanA, abhi/shEkam or something similar. The new wealth is in the form

of produce. I am not including bathing ghats, hygiene facilities,

transportation, etc. The later do give more jobs at least temporarily.

Another good example is /vinAyaka caturthi, which is universal and involves

in addition to food making of clay /vigrahAs. Notice that all these are

environment friendly.

What /kAJnci PeriyavAl says is to increase such activities at the level of

each village, and since we need people as full-time performers, let us call

them /brAhmins. One way to do is to perform /yaGnAs, /abhi/shEkams etc.

Recite /vEdAs. We get more schools, more teachers (called /brAhmins by

training) etc. It does not mean that being a /brAhmin is a mater of birth

right, but rather one of qualifications. The influence of birth is obviously

there, as it takes a lot to change one's profession. Also an engineer or a

mechanic earning decently is not likely to make the change. And each one is

respected in his or her position.

The question of caste become centarl only when there are economic issues.

And that is what the British created by destroying production at the village

level. /kAJnci PeriyavAL is simply saying, "revive it". It is not difficult

to see /mahAtmA Gandhi did exactly that. He revived village-level production

and he was able to do so only by appealing to religion. And he was able to

overcome caste and even religious diferences in the beginning and for a long

time. The British worked hard to create communal difernces and they did

succeed to some extent as they could control economy and politics.

Gloablism is a similar issue today used to thwart exonomic growth at the

local level. What /PeriyavAL says is that it is easy as Gandhi did by

working with institutions which were successful in the past and finding new

models of the same. Gandhiji did not reject caste, but he saw a need to make

appropriate changes without uprooting basics. He relied on the /gITA

throughout his life and in his earlier times, he constantly wrote to a

/gujarAti businessman who practiced buisness strictly according to the

tradition of the /vEdAs. This businessman was very honest and did not

believe in profit the way people do now-a-days. Today it is based on law. If

I can cheat you legally, it is fine. "You are a fool for being not careful".

Finally let me close by pointing out that /shOdasha upa/cAram --- the

sixteen-point worship service --- even when performed at home does increase

production and wealth including that of cotton. If performed in a temple we

all can share. We can add music and dance as new weekly /upa/cArams even

though I notice that for /ganApati, it is already included in the service as

an aside!! I also notice that /gaNapatui pUjA includes leaves of different

kinds. Thus complete service even on a weekly basis will increase wealth and

provide new jobs. Notice the cows will enjoy more attention.

/vantanam.

Visu

>Mugundhan Varadanarayanan <mugundv

>"M.K.Sudarshan" <sampathkumar_2000,

>

>CC: tiruvengadam

>Re: Re: Must Read....

>Sat, 22 Feb 2003 14:58:49 -0800 (PST)

>

>Respected Sir,

>I agree with the points you raised. When we say a Brahmin, being a part

>time Brahmin is not good. When a Brahmin moves away from his profession

>because his faith is weakened on Vedas, then we have a serious problem

>and its manifestation is very much obvious nowadays....

>

>But my view point is that Srivaishnava and Brahmin are not exactly the

>same. Most of the Azhvars are non-brahmins but they are sri vaishnavas.

>There are lots of Brahmins who do not to the Vaishnava

>philosophy. Lots of kings were srivaishnavas (Pandavas from

>Mahabharatham are good eg, same with Kulasekara Azhvar etc). In these

>cases, I feel what Kanch Acharya said is not applicable. His Holiness

>spoke of people who took Brahmin profession and who did not do justice

>to the same. In this case for people outside Brahmin fold, is giving up

>material pursuits and seek exclusively knowledge the right thing to do?

>

> I am not sure. Karma Yoga is as important as other yogas... I am an

>engineer, I love my field. I have deep faith in Sriman Narayana. I

>enjoy listening to Tamil Prabhandhams and feel humbled by the fact only

>endless devotion can produce such profound and interesting verses and

>this only increases my faith...

>

>But am I a Brahmin? I come from a very traditional Brahmin family with

>Ahobil Mutt Acharya as our Acharya and my home village of Thuvariman is

>a devout Vaishanva village. But me learning or the desire to learn

>Tamil Prabhandhams is not because of my family background but rather

>the fact that faith is the key, Deep meanings in Prabhandhams and the

>rich poetry in those songs could have occured only when Azhars felt the

>presence of The Lord, and deep down I feel that I can never deny the

>presence of Para Brahmam and unless I put utmost faith, I will never

>find peace....

>

>But should I renounce my job, go back to my agraharam and focus on

>acquiring knowledge? I think that is not the right thing to do because

>I chose engineering as my profession and it is my duty to shine on this

>profession as enshrined in Karma Yoga.

>

>If I chose to go back to my Brahmin background, I agree I must remain

>committed to that full time, renounce material pursuits .... I must

>follow my Acharya and try to follow the exact tradition without any

>deviation.

>

>My point is how do we draw to our fold other people who are not from

>brahmin family but who have deep faith in the Lord? Because Vaishnava

>fold is different from Brahmin fold and reaching out to people who are

>not from Brahmin background but who believe in Sri Narayanan will make

>sure that knowledge gained in vedas remain available to future

>generations for ever....

>

>I am willing to accept any criticisms to my view and if I am wrong, I

>am willing to change myself, I am just a 27 year old guy trying to

>understand things and i believe things are not as straightforward as I

>say. Again, please accept my apologies in case I said something

>offensive....

>

>Dasan,

>Mugundhan

>

>--- "M.K.Sudarshan" <sampathkumar_2000 wrote:

> >

> > --- Mugundhan Varadanarayanan <mugundv wrote:

> >

> > > My point is we in our professions must follow whatever is the

> > > duties of> the profession and it is as much as virtue as following

> > our job> duties> as much as we follow the Vedic rituals,

> >

> > ************************

> >

> > Dear Sir,

> >

> > You make a good point but I think you can find the answer to your

> > question in the Kanchi AchArya's own quote (probably you might have

> > missed it while reading the quote y/day for the first time):

> >

> > QUOTE:

> > > > “The brahmin, if he is true to his dharma, HAS to spend all his

> > > time> > in learning and chanting the vedas, in performing

> > sacrifices, in> > preserving the sAstrA etc. What will he do for a

> > living? If he

> > > goes> > in search of money or material he WILL NOT BE ABLE TO

> > ATTEND TO> HIS

> > > > LIFETIME MISSION…. and this mission IS NOT ACCOMPLISHED ON A

> > > > PART-TIME BASIS. And if he takes up some other work for his

> > > > livelihood, he is likely to become lax in the pursuit of his

> > > dharma.

> > > > It would be like taking medicine without the necessary diet

> > > regimen:> > the benign power gained by the brahmin from his vedic

> > learning> will be reduced and there will be a corresponding

> > dimunition in the good accruing to mankind from his work.”

> > UNQUOTE

> >

> > Sir, I think the key words in the Kanchi achArya's quote is "good

> > accruing to mankind from his (the brahmin's) work".

> >

> > In Indian society the work of brahmins dedicated solely to Vedic

> > pursuits used to be greatly valued by members of other

> > classes/communities. The work done by "full-time", dedicated

> > Vedaviths was seen to be important (though not always well

> > compensated, but that's a different matter altogether) since it

> > contributed greatly to the spiritual upliftment and well-being of

> > society as a whole. It is only when brahmins started taking a casual,

> > "part-time" approach to their Vedic life-mission that they rapidly

> > lost their credibility and respect in the eyes of the rest of

> > society. Nobody takes a "part-time" carpenter or plumber seriously.

> > So why would they take a "part-time" Vedavith seriously?

> >

> > Please allow me to paraphrase for you the 'key' point that the Kanchi

> > achArya was making so that you can reflect upon it more deeply:

> >

> > Society's conviction that there is enduring value in Vedic and

> > spiritual pursuit has to be at all times firm. If that conviction is

> > weakened, and nobody believes any longer there is any worth in such

> > activity, then the Vedic ethos and legacy will simply wither away to

> > the lasting detriment of Indian society. Now, who but brahmins

> > themselves -- and I mean credible "full-time brahmins" here -- who

> > can alone affirm society's conviction in the Vedas?

> >

> > Please give this important matter some genuine thought (and not just

> > for sake of academic discussion on cyber-groups) and revert with

> > comments, if any. I appeal to bright young people like you to take

> > this matter seriously and do something about it in their lifetimes

> > for the sake of the Vedas. If this thread of discussion is not

> > welcome on this list you and others interested are welcome to

> > continue it on Tiruvengadam

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > dAsan,

> > Sudarshan

> >

> > Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more

> > http://taxes./

> >

> > Srirangasri-

> >

> > Your use of is subject to

> >

>

> Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more

>http://taxes./

>

>Srirangasri-

>

>Your use of is subject to

>

_______________

Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online

http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

February 23, 2003

Dear friend,

(1)Being a brahmin or a SriVaishnava has nothing to do with caste.

Anyone -- repeat, anyone -- who dedicates his life wholly (not

"part-time") to the pursuit of Brahman (the ideal of the Upanishads)

is said to be a 'brAhmanan'. A brahmin is obliged to pursue Brahman

in life through the Vedic pathway. That is his "karma-yOga".

(2) SriVaishnavam is not separate or distinct from the Veda. It is an

offshoot of the Vedic tradition. SriVaishnavism is "rAmAnuja

darsanam".

"rAmAnuja darsanam" has its roots wholly in the Vedas.

(3) The DivyaPrabhandhams of the AzhwArs are also not separate and

distinct from the Vedas. They owe their roots and inspiration to the

Vedic 'sruti'. The AzhwArs were all well-versed in the Vedas -- you

only have to take the example of Tirumazhisai and NammAzhwAr to

confirm that they were Vedic adepts in their own right, although they

were not 'brahmin' by birth. The AzhwArs, who belonged variously to

many caste-backgrounds and occupations, were all brAhmanA-s too in

the larger Upanishadic sense of the term.

(4) The Prabhandams do not and cannot compete with the Vedas. They

complement it. They are the equal of the Vedas in the same way that

one eye of ours is the equal of the other. This is why "rAmAnuja

darsanam" or SriVaishnavism has always been called the tradition of

"ubhaya-vedanta" -- the royal path of Vedanta paved on both sides: on

one side, is the gilded Vedic 'marai' and on the other, is the gilded

Tamil 'marai'.

(6) To think therefore, as you seem to be doing, that we can all do

very well with just the Prabhandhams and abandon the Vedas, or the

Vedic way of life, is like saying "Who needs the cane-stalk when I

have the cane-juice at hand?". Let's not forget that the elixir of

Prabhandham was extracted from the cane-stalk of the Vedas.

(7) Cultivating cane-crop, unfortunately, is far more difficult than

drinking cane-juice. Farming is hard, back-breaking labour. And Vedic

learning and Vedic-living is precisely like that. Just as no one

wants to be engaged in farming these days, the brahmin community too,

over the centuries, got away from the hard Vedic life. And now since

we find it so difficult to go back to farming we come up with clever

rationalizations as to why farming is an outdated, outmoded

occupation.

But let us then ponder deeply about the fact of life: If there is no

one to raise the crop, where will future supplies of cane-juice come

from?

Sir, the points you have raised are also very valid. Can we all

abandon our professions and way of life now and go back to the

'agrahAram'? For what purpose? There seems to be no wisdom in that at

all. But see what the Kanchi AchArya had to say to that too (which is

also in the original passage I quoted):

(QUOTE):