Question related to Bharniyasanam

[Guest guest]

I was faced with a similar situation, it has been a practise to have the babies

tontured at a temple of one devathanthram in our ancestoral village. Even veru

orthodox person such as my grand father had suscribed to such acts in the past.

Recently when i had an occassion, I made a mention about this to H.H. Azagiya

Singar- my acharya. "koodathu ethavathu nadakkum endru nee ninaithaal lakshmi

nrusimhan jawab" (Strict No, if you feel there could be any unplesant

conseqences, Lord Lakshmi Nrusimhan will take the responsibility.) was his

reply.

The main tenet of saranagathi is Maha Viswasam. There is one God and none to

whom we shall pray except his own bakthas.

Saranagathi is done for obtaining moksha. Puthukku Paal are all done expecting

results such as health, wealth, children etc., Para Nyasam is done to surrender

our soul to the Lord and seek Him. Other karmas such as puthukku paal would be a

barrier in performing saranagathi.

It is common knowledge that it is only Sriman Narayana who grants what ever is

prayed to the other devathanthrams

adiyen baktha angari renu

vasu venkataraghavan

-

askanth

 

Tuesday, January 22, 2002 1:57 AM

Question related to Bharniyasanam

Dear group members,If a person has had bharniyasanam from HH Acharyas, can that

person get involved with "puthukku paal" if it was being followed from

ancestors who also had bharniyasanam, so that traditions would be

maintained?Thank you all very much,RegardsadiyenTo from this group,

send an email to:Srirangasri-Your use of is

subject to the

[Guest guest]

Thanks for sri Vasu Venkatraghavan for the clarification.  tradition just

because it was followed by ancestors does not mean anything. tradition has to

be evaluated in the light of shaastras.  I seriously advice everyone to make

effort to learn the essence of our shastras.  WE are bringing so many learned

scholars and acharyas on the teleconference.  If you do not want to quit US and

go to india to study under acharyas, at least make effort to listen to their

lectures and learn these issues.  strictly speaking one should not even have

such doubts after prapatti. before prapatti itself one has to make effort to

find out what it is about. this can be done  by effort. to come to US one takes

up exams such as GRE, GMAT etc. to go to vaikuntam one has to work  to

understand what the paths are.  One has to clearly know what is bhakti yogam,

prapatti etc. Every attainment here or hereafter requires some sacrifice.  Even

getting a job requires effort.  Hence I suggest everyone to focus and learn some

details deeply regarding prapatti. there are a number of books also. However

learning under gurus is definitely preferable and books should be used only for

additional clarifications or anusandhanam - practice.

 

Dr. NS anantharangachar is teaching sharangati gadyam - the essence of the

theory and practice of sharanagathi or surrender.  Please look into bhaktilist

postings and probably there will be a class next week.

 

adiyen Krishna Kashyap

VASU VENKAT.K.

[vasu_venkat (AT) hotmail (DOT) com]Tuesday, January 22, 2002 6:32 AMTo:

; askanthRe: Question related

to Bharniyasanam

I was faced with a similar situation, it has been a practise to have the babies

tontured at a temple of one devathanthram in our ancestoral village. Even veru

orthodox person such as my grand father had suscribed to such acts in the

past. Recently when i had an occassion, I made a mention about this to H.H.

Azagiya Singar- my acharya. "koodathu ethavathu nadakkum endru nee ninaithaal

lakshmi nrusimhan jawab" (Strict No, if you feel there could be any unplesant

conseqences, Lord Lakshmi Nrusimhan will take the responsibility.) was his

reply.

The main tenet of saranagathi is Maha Viswasam. There is one God and none to

whom we shall pray except his own bakthas.

Saranagathi is done for obtaining moksha. Puthukku Paal are all done expecting

results such as health, wealth, children etc., Para Nyasam is done to surrender

our soul to the Lord and seek Him. Other karmas such as puthukku paal would be a

barrier in performing saranagathi.

It is common knowledge that it is only Sriman Narayana who grants what ever is

prayed to the other devathanthrams

adiyen baktha angari renu

vasu venkataraghavan

-

askanth

 

Tuesday, January 22, 2002 1:57 AM

Question related to Bharniyasanam

Dear group members,If a person has had bharniyasanam from HH Acharyas, can that

person get involved with "puthukku paal" if it was being followed from

ancestors who also had bharniyasanam, so that traditions would be

maintained?Thank you all very much,RegardsadiyenTo from this group,

send an email to:Srirangasri-Your use of is

subject to the To from this group, send an

email to:Srirangasri-Your use of is

subject to the

[Guest guest]

asmad gurubhyo namah,

 

I would like everyone to be free and ask questions whatever they may be. it is

better if one asks and several people benefit from the answers they get.

 

adiyen Krishna Kashyap

[Guest guest]

Thondar Uhakkum Un Thunai Adi Vaazhi

 

 

Respected Bhagavadhothamas

 

This is a topic that has been engaging the attention of our

fellow-vaishnavites. Though in general I agree with the exponential theme

put forth by Sriman Vasu and Sriman Krishna, adiyen differs with the views

of Krishnaji with respect to his mention "just because it was followed by

ancestors does not mean anything". Ancestors have given us everything. If

we are in this state today, it is their blessing and the atmosphere in which

we were brought up. Suddenly, we cannot throw to winds the preachings and

the anushtanams that we have been taught. Probably, with the amount of

literatures/lectures/ charyans' Arulvaakku, etc. we are enriching our

knowledge. At the same time, it is difficult to give a go-by to the

anushtanams/practices that our ancestors, who are none other than our

Acharyans, have bequeathed to us. Even the Almighty comes in the last of

four, "Matha, Pitha, Guru and Deivam".

 

Further, in Thondaradipodi Alwar's pasuram "Thirumalai", "Saadhi

Andanarhalelum, numarhali pazhipparahil.....", the essence is that even if

the vedic-chanting Brahmins cause any disrespect to Ranganathan's adiyargal,

he will not forgive.

 

A section of our vaishnavite sect adopts the teachings (only after Swami

Desikan's avatharam) Azhwars only when it suits them. For instance,

Samayapuram Mariamman Temple was under the administrative control of Lord

Ranganathaswamy Devasthanam till a decade or so ago. For some inexplicable

reasons, the Govt. of the day chose to hive off Samayapuram Devasthanam of

Goddess Mariamman separately. They of course co-exist. Many of the

vaishnavites of Srirangam original would vouchsafe the coordination between

these two temples in conduct of Uthsavams. Goddess Mariamman even today

comes to the banks of Cauvery at Srirangam, as it is only 4 miles away.

Many of the Satthanis {flower merchants who are doing kainkaryam in

Srirangam temple) used to offer flowers to the Goddess and the Mariamman

Temple's daily poojas are performed by hereditary Gurukkal. For decades

these practices are going on. To say that whateve ancestors have done is

not correct, it is, I BEG TO SUBMIT, difficult to digest. Whatever our

parents say is VEDHA VAKKU. How will you differ?

 

Another interesting instance. Nowadays, lakhs are undertaking pilgrimage to

Sabarimala. H H Mukkur Azhagiayasinghar once chided a friend of mine, when

he went in a black dress, to the Mutt. But at the same time, when another

friend of mine could not secure the consent of his parents (srivaishnavites)

to undertake this yatra, he was advised by the group not to undertake as

without the parents' consent (veda vakku), no pilgrimage of the sort can be

undertaken.

 

I am just amplifying. PLEASE FORGIVE ME IF I AM WRONG OR I GO ASTRAY.

PLEASE DO CORRECT ME.

 

I am performing Nithyaradhanam of about 16 perumals in my residence, I am

not failing in performing my Nithya karmas. After Saaya Sandhyavandanam, I

offer my dhandam to my parents. I am a Sama vedhi, doing Sama Adhyananam

for the past 8 years. Being the blessed son-in-law of late Natteri

Sesadrichariar swami, I know Thiruvoimozhi and Mudhalayiram.

 

However, I am putting across the above views only to elicit further thoughts

and response. ONCE AGAIN I SEEK THE PARDON IF I AM WRONG.

 

Srirangam Srinivasa Raghava dasan

 

SWAMI DESIKAN THIRUVADIGALE CHARANAM

[Guest guest]

respected bhagavathas,

 

It is a pleasure to communicate with esteemed members like sri Srirangam

Srinivasa Raghavan swamy with vedic and naalayiram background. I would

refer to my sentences :

 

tradition just

> because it was followed by ancestors does not mean anything. tradition has

> to be evaluated in the light of shaastras.

 

I would request Sri Srinivasa Raghavn swamy to kindly re consider both the

sentences of mine before making a conclusion regarding my views. Tradition

has to be evaluated in the light of shastras. This is a age old time tested

strategy suggested by all vedantic schools including Sri Shankaracharya who

stated : shastra acharya mukhena - which means - contemplate the words of

guru and compare it with the words of shastras. Matru devo bhava and pitru

devo bhava are valid vedic statements. However, I am not commenting on any

particular parents here. However, for example if sri Prahladan had listened

to his father Hiranyakasipu, it would be wrong or if vibheesanan had

listened to Ravanan, who was jyesta putran and hence equal to father, it

would be again wrong. Hence, eventhough we have to respect our parents, we

have to evaluate everything in the light of shastras.

 

Some mistakes are more deadly compared to others. our acharyar, HH

Azhagiasingar stated that " for a prapannan, anyadevata puja or sambandam is

"suicidal" and will obliterate his / her prapatti". I questioned HH further

and said - " Respected Acharyar - why should we say that? ; bhagavatam

states that "vaishnavanam yatha shambhuh" ( meaning Siva is foremost among

vaishnavas) and further, ahirbudhnya samhita, from which our acharyas gain

support to the concept of prapatti was given as upadesam by Ahirbudhnyan who

is Sattvic Form of Sivan to Sage Narada". Considering all these should

Sivan not be considered as a great acharyan in our system ?"

 

HH Azhagiasingar stated " Inspite of all these pramanams, Lord

Srimannarayanan is the ultimate God and all others are dependent. We should

not have Anya devata sambandam, since we are seshabhutas or servants of

that srimannarayan alone and not other jivas. We should not consider anya

devatas as deities since even such practices will slowly develop into major

issues in families in a couple of generations, due to fear etc. We have to

firmly believe even when faced with great dangers in life on srimannarayan

only. NOTHING should change this mahavishvasam in us. All these scriptural

support etc. you are mentioning only means that we should not disrespect

other deities or have any hatred towards them."

 

In practice, things may change over several generations due to traditions in

families. For example, I know a person whose grand parents had kept a

"VEL" - ( belonging to Murugan deity) along with the Saligramams in their

puja griham. This person after his grandparents passed away, due to respect

and as per parental guidance, kept on worshipping Murugan and also

celebrating the appropriate festivals for Murugan. HE has become so staunch

devotee of Murugan now, it is impossible for him to see the relative

difference between Murugan ( who is a demiGod) and Srimannarayan who is the

Ultimate Bramhan! Demi Gods are also Jivans. If this person had put some

efforts to ask Acharyas who are more knowlegeable than parents and conducted

a study of shastras like rahasysatrayasaram or srivachanabhusanam, it would

have been better for him.

 

All these issues matter to MUMUKSHUS and Prapannas. Sri vedanta desikar

states: Bramhanam shitikantam cha yaashcanyah devata smritah pratibuddhah na

sevante yasmat parimitam phalam. - the intelligent ones do not pray to Siva,

Bramha and other such dieties since they can only give limited fruits.

 

If one gives great importance to one's Moksham, I think it is best to avoid

any questionable acts or thoughts that may affect their relationship with

srimannarayan. It is not just a question of life and death but - millions

of lives and deaths!! This is so important. Even for a simple issue like

keeping our jobs, we take so much care not to do something that displeases

our company presidents or CEOs. Hence it is in our interest to keep our

relationship with srimannarayan, who is the CEO of everything. - Let me

remind people about the great mantra here - vasuranyo vibhurasi prane

tvamasi sandhatha bramhan tvamasi vishvadhrit tejo das tvamasi

gnirasi...( Mahanarayaniya - quoted in support for prapatti)

 

Adiyen Krishna Kashyap.

 

 

Raghav [Raghav]

Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:37 PM

vasu_venkat; ;

hotsamosa; kkalale1

RE: Question related to Bharniyasanam

 

 

Thondar Uhakkum Un Thunai Adi Vaazhi

 

 

Respected Bhagavadhothamas

 

This is a topic that has been engaging the attention of our

fellow-vaishnavites. Though in general I agree with the exponential theme

put forth by Sriman Vasu and Sriman Krishna, adiyen differs with the views

of Krishnaji with respect to his mention "just because it was followed by

ancestors does not mean anything". Ancestors have given us everything. If

we are in this state today, it is their blessing and the atmosphere in which

we were brought up. Suddenly, we cannot throw to winds the preachings and

the anushtanams that we have been taught. Probably, with the amount of

literatures/lectures/ charyans' Arulvaakku, etc. we are enriching our

knowledge. At the same time, it is difficult to give a go-by to the

anushtanams/practices that our ancestors, who are none other than our

Acharyans, have bequeathed to us. Even the Almighty comes in the last of

four, "Matha, Pitha, Guru and Deivam".

 

Further, in Thondaradipodi Alwar's pasuram "Thirumalai", "Saadhi

Andanarhalelum, numarhali pazhipparahil.....", the essence is that even if

the vedic-chanting Brahmins cause any disrespect to Ranganathan's adiyargal,

he will not forgive.

 

A section of our vaishnavite sect adopts the teachings (only after Swami

Desikan's avatharam) Azhwars only when it suits them. For instance,

Samayapuram Mariamman Temple was under the administrative control of Lord

Ranganathaswamy Devasthanam till a decade or so ago. For some inexplicable

reasons, the Govt. of the day chose to hive off Samayapuram Devasthanam of

Goddess Mariamman separately. They of course co-exist. Many of the

vaishnavites of Srirangam original would vouchsafe the coordination between

these two temples in conduct of Uthsavams. Goddess Mariamman even today

comes to the banks of Cauvery at Srirangam, as it is only 4 miles away.

Many of the Satthanis {flower merchants who are doing kainkaryam in

Srirangam temple) used to offer flowers to the Goddess and the Mariamman

Temple's daily poojas are performed by hereditary Gurukkal. For decades

these practices are going on. To say that whateve ancestors have done is

not correct, it is, I BEG TO SUBMIT, difficult to digest. Whatever our

parents say is VEDHA VAKKU. How will you differ?

 

Another interesting instance. Nowadays, lakhs are undertaking pilgrimage to

Sabarimala. H H Mukkur Azhagiayasinghar once chided a friend of mine, when

he went in a black dress, to the Mutt. But at the same time, when another

friend of mine could not secure the consent of his parents (srivaishnavites)

to undertake this yatra, he was advised by the group not to undertake as

without the parents' consent (veda vakku), no pilgrimage of the sort can be

undertaken.

 

I am just amplifying. PLEASE FORGIVE ME IF I AM WRONG OR I GO ASTRAY.

PLEASE DO CORRECT ME.

 

I am performing Nithyaradhanam of about 16 perumals in my residence, I am

not failing in performing my Nithya karmas. After Saaya Sandhyavandanam, I

offer my dhandam to my parents. I am a Sama vedhi, doing Sama Adhyananam

for the past 8 years. Being the blessed son-in-law of late Natteri

Sesadrichariar swami, I know Thiruvoimozhi and Mudhalayiram.

 

However, I am putting across the above views only to elicit further thoughts

and response. ONCE AGAIN I SEEK THE PARDON IF I AM WRONG.

 

Srirangam Srinivasa Raghava dasan

 

SWAMI DESIKAN THIRUVADIGALE CHARANAM

[Guest guest]

Dear Friend: Samayapuram koil belonging to Srirangam PeriyaKoil was done for

administrative reasons, making a few temples come under Sri Ranganathar

Vahaiyaraa (etc.) Devasthanam and for the same reason, Koil Mariyaadi, like

Poochchoriyal is sent to other temples from PeriyaKoil. This has nothing to do

with the Agamic tradition followed by The Temple. As you know, for income

reasons the other temple got split with PeriyaKoil. Vada-Thirukkaaveri

manal-thittu does not belong to PeriyaKoil. Other temples can use the area for

Thai-poosam and Maasi-makam.

 

Dr. K. P. Sarathy

----

--- raghav wrote:

> Thondar Uhakkum Un Thunai Adi Vaazhi

>

>

> Respected Bhagavadhothamas

>

> This is a topic that has been engaging the attention of our

> fellow-vaishnavites. Though in general I agree with the exponential theme

> put forth by Sriman Vasu and Sriman Krishna, adiyen differs with the views

> of Krishnaji with respect to his mention "just because it was followed by

> ancestors does not mean anything". Ancestors have given us everything. If

> we are in this state today, it is their blessing and the atmosphere in which

> we were brought up. Suddenly, we cannot throw to winds the preachings and

> the anushtanams that we have been taught.

 

 

 

Send FREE video emails in Mail!

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[Guest guest]

srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha

srImadh varavara munayE namaha

 

Dear Sri Raghav.

 

I beg to differ from your views. While it shows one's respect for his

elders while following their family traditions unquestioned, that is not a

desired charactersitic of an intellectual. I do agree that, even in our

family we had some traditions to pray to some dEvathAntharAs. But I do not

follow them now.

 

In order to accept this, we have to have a change in our mindset and try to

research the reasons that prompted our ancestors to do some anya devatha

ArAdhanA. I am sure 100% that, there would be no valid reason, except that

some one in our lineage due to some kAmya buddhi would have performed

something and got some results and hence the same is being followed.

 

However, as a true Srivaishnavite we are not to indulge is seeking anything

that is kAmyam in nature. We are to seek only for the highest, which is

salvation (mOkshA) and who else can give it other than Sriman nArAyaNa?

 

So to follow the family traditions and do some ArAdhanAs to anya dEvathAs

is right if you seek materialistic pleasure as, though capable, our

emberumAn is so merciful that he will hesitate to give them to you, because

you will still remain in this world away from Him. Afterall he is always

wanting a unison with the jeevAtmAs.

 

An interesting slOka from VaradarAjasthavam from Sri koorathAzhwAn comes to

my mind here.

 

" varada! yadhi ha vasthu vAnchAmyaham thava charaNa labhA virOdhas thatha

yadhi na bhavathi thath pradhEhi prabhO! jatithi vidhara pAdhamEvAnyatha"

 

He Sri AzhwAn prays to Sri Varadharaja, " Please do give me whatever I ask,

only if it leads me to your lotus feet. If not, please do not give them.

But do take me into your lotus feet immediately". See the greatness of this

noble AchArya.

 

Then the prodigious Thondaradippodi AzhwAr is always there. How many

pAsuram is "thirumAlai" talk about renouncing anya dEvatha worship.

 

" pulaiyaRamAgi ninRa puthodu samaNamellAm..."

" veRuppodu samaNar muNdar..."

and the clearest pAsuram

 

"maRRumOr dheivamuNdE madhiyilA mAnidangAL

uRRa pOdhanRi neengaL oruvan enRu uNara mAtter

aRRa mEl onRu aRiyIr avanallAl dheivam illai

kaRRinam mEitha endhai kazhaliNai paNimin neerE"

 

For those who can follow Tamil, no need to explain the above pAsuram as it

is in the simplest of the simple language. Here the AzhwAr calls those who

worship anya dEvathAs (may be we can include here, those who worship due to

family traditions also) as "madhiyilA mAnidangAL", one without knowledge.

 

If we are to write about these things, I believe one message is not enough.

A lot more may be required. However to end my note I would invite your

attention to one of the main "angA" of the saraNAgathi, "mahAviswAsam".

 

Can you justify the act of worshipping the anya dEvathAs, due to family

tradition etc, with respect to this mahAviswAsam. When Sriman nArAyaNan can

give the highest of the desirable, which is the mOksham, then can't He give

what we want even if it is materialistic. The only problem is that he will

hesitate to give into our materialistic desires, as that will take us away

from Him. As every poorvAchAryA says, while He hesitates, He will still

give it to us, if we still desire only for the materialistic pleasures.

 

So IMHO, the worship of anya dEvathAs with family tradition in backgroud

cannot be accepted in a justified sense.

 

AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh

[Guest guest]

Thondar Uhakkum Nin Thunai Adi Vaazhi

 

Can I be enlightened on the following

 

1. As we enter our temples, after paying obeisance at Dwajasthambam, we

worship Garuthman and go to Gajanar (equivalent of Pilliayar). Is it OK ?

 

2. What is the role of Gajanar in our temples

 

3. Is it true that on Vinayaka Chathurthi day, kozhukattai is being offered

to the Gajanar in Sri Ranga Vimanam ?

 

4. In Thirumaalai, I want our friends to elucidate on pasuram "Saadhi

Andhanarhalelum, numarhalai pazhipparahil..."

 

5. In the pasurams mentioned by Shri Venkatesh swami, the reference is to

Buddha, Samana, i.e. other Religions. It is correct ?

 

6. Thirumizhisai piran was in our faith and then switched over to other

faiths before coming back to our fold. Thereby he established the supremacy

of our faith. correct ? Swami Desikan's pasuram "Thai Magathi

varum.......Matrai samayangal pala therindhu"

 

7. For a person who has not had a Bharanyasam (only of course Samasrayam),

can he continue his own way till he comes forward for Baranyasa.

 

It is only with a view to generating interest in the topic and ensure that

the message percolates down to the last srivaishnavan, I am raising them.

Please forgive me if I am wrong.

 

Adiyen

 

Srirangam Srinivasa Raghava dasan

[Guest guest]

This is an excellent article by sri TV VENKATESH. One should read it.

 

adiyen Krishna

 

 

TV Venkatesh/FXSLF/SEC/SANMAR [tvv1]

Wednesday, January 23, 2002 9:11 PM

raghav

Cc:

RE: Question related to Bharniyasanam

 

 

srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha

srImadh varavara munayE namaha

 

Dear Sri Raghav.

 

I beg to differ from your views. While it shows one's respect for his

elders while following their family traditions unquestioned, that is not a

desired charactersitic of an intellectual. I do agree that, even in our

family we had some traditions to pray to some dEvathAntharAs. But I do not

follow them now.

 

In order to accept this, we have to have a change in our mindset and try to

research the reasons that prompted our ancestors to do some anya devatha

ArAdhanA. I am sure 100% that, there would be no valid reason, except that

some one in our lineage due to some kAmya buddhi would have performed

something and got some results and hence the same is being followed.

 

However, as a true Srivaishnavite we are not to indulge is seeking anything

that is kAmyam in nature. We are to seek only for the highest, which is

salvation (mOkshA) and who else can give it other than Sriman nArAyaNa?

 

So to follow the family traditions and do some ArAdhanAs to anya dEvathAs

is right if you seek materialistic pleasure as, though capable, our

emberumAn is so merciful that he will hesitate to give them to you, because

you will still remain in this world away from Him. Afterall he is always

wanting a unison with the jeevAtmAs.

 

An interesting slOka from VaradarAjasthavam from Sri koorathAzhwAn comes to

my mind here.

 

" varada! yadhi ha vasthu vAnchAmyaham thava charaNa labhA virOdhas thatha

yadhi na bhavathi thath pradhEhi prabhO! jatithi vidhara pAdhamEvAnyatha"

 

He Sri AzhwAn prays to Sri Varadharaja, " Please do give me whatever I ask,

only if it leads me to your lotus feet. If not, please do not give them.

But do take me into your lotus feet immediately". See the greatness of this

noble AchArya.

 

Then the prodigious Thondaradippodi AzhwAr is always there. How many

pAsuram is "thirumAlai" talk about renouncing anya dEvatha worship.

 

" pulaiyaRamAgi ninRa puthodu samaNamellAm..."

" veRuppodu samaNar muNdar..."

and the clearest pAsuram

 

"maRRumOr dheivamuNdE madhiyilA mAnidangAL

uRRa pOdhanRi neengaL oruvan enRu uNara mAtter

aRRa mEl onRu aRiyIr avanallAl dheivam illai

kaRRinam mEitha endhai kazhaliNai paNimin neerE"

 

For those who can follow Tamil, no need to explain the above pAsuram as it

is in the simplest of the simple language. Here the AzhwAr calls those who

worship anya dEvathAs (may be we can include here, those who worship due to

family traditions also) as "madhiyilA mAnidangAL", one without knowledge.

 

If we are to write about these things, I believe one message is not enough.

A lot more may be required. However to end my note I would invite your

attention to one of the main "angA" of the saraNAgathi, "mahAviswAsam".

 

Can you justify the act of worshipping the anya dEvathAs, due to family

tradition etc, with respect to this mahAviswAsam. When Sriman nArAyaNan can

give the highest of the desirable, which is the mOksham, then can't He give

what we want even if it is materialistic. The only problem is that he will

hesitate to give into our materialistic desires, as that will take us away

from Him. As every poorvAchAryA says, while He hesitates, He will still

give it to us, if we still desire only for the materialistic pleasures.

 

So IMHO, the worship of anya dEvathAs with family tradition in backgroud

cannot be accepted in a justified sense.

 

AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Srirangasri-

 

 

 

Your use of is subject to

[Guest guest]

srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha

srImadh varavara munayE namaha

 

Dear Members,

 

Please pardon me for having accidentally hit the send button before

completing the same.

 

AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh

 

srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha

srImadh varavara munayE namaha

 

Dear Sri Krishna,

 

Thanks for your foreword. Interestingly, today morning I tuned into Jaya TV

and they were telecasting a upanyAsam of Srimadh Azhagiasingar. As if to

clear our doubts , he clearly quoted the pAsuram "kAkkum iyalvinan kaNNa

perumAn..", means , it is kaNNan who has the 'saviour character' by nature.

So why to go to any other devathAs. Additionally he added, even within the

avatArAs of Sriman nArAyaNan, the best saviour is Narasimhan. Not Rama,

not Krishna. The reason is of course, it was only Narasimhan who destroyed

the enemy (HiraNyakasibhu) of His devotee (PrahalAdha) immediately when the

avathArA was made. Rama killed Ravana only at 37 years of age. Even

Krishna, when He killed the sakaTAsuran, He was either 4 or 5 months old as

told by Sri periyAzhwAr "nAlgaLOr nAlainthu thingaLaLavilE, thALai

nimirtthuch chagadatthaich chADippOi..."

 

While pondering over this the following pAsuram of ThiruvAimozhi and the

explanation given by Sri Velukkudi Krishnan swami came into my mind.

 

" AdiyAdi agam karainthu, isai

pAdip pAdik kaNNeermalgi - engum

nAdi nAdi narasingA enRu

vAdi vAdum ivvaNudalE"

 

Continuation.

 

Here, why the AzhwAr does not say " engum nAdi nAdi rAmA or KrishNa".

Because for the same reason as stated above by Srimadh Azhagiasingar, it

was only Narasimha who came to the help of His devotee immediately, true to

word of the same AzhwAr in another pAsuram "... angu appozhudE avan veeya

thOndRiya, en singappirAn perumai ArAyum seernaitthE".

 

I hope no more clarification is required after these words from the Jeeyar

swAmi.

 

AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh

Attachment: pic08723.pcx [not stored]

[Guest guest]

srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha

srImadh varavara munayE namaha

 

Dear Sri Srinivasa Raghavan swamy,

 

I would try to answer your question to my knowledge. The left out questions

mean, I do not know the answer.

 

1. Upto entering the temple, paying obeisance near the dwajasthambam and

praying to garudAzhwAr is okay. To my knowledge I haven't heard about going

to Gajananar mandatorily. As Sri garudAzhwAr is standing opposite perumAL,

signifying that the vEdAs will always be looking at the perumAL, we should

not stand in between perumAL and garudAzhwAr and also after paying

obeisance to the vEda swaroopi, we should go towards thAyAr sannidhi first.

This is what I heard of. Interestingly, in ThiruvallikkENi, there is a

Gajananar in entrance and I have noticed, not a single Sri Vaishnvaite

going to him after praying to Sri GarudAzhwAr.

 

2. The Gajananar whom we see in Sri Vaishnavite temples are not the Son of

Siva, but the commander-in-chief of Sri ViswaksEna, who in turn is the

commander-in-chief of emberumAn Himself.

 

4. This pAsuram talks about the bhAgavatApachAram. It should be noted that,

the AzhwAr says, If one talks ill about His 'adiyAr', no matter even if

that man is born in the Brahmin family, he will be treated as "pulayar" or

untouchable. Here the word adiyAr carries a deeper meaning in that, the

"adiyArs" are not just those who pray Sriman nArAyaNan, but are "maRandum

puRam thozhA mAndhar". The mahAviswAsam that they have on Sriman nArAyaNan

is unparalleled.

 

5. Yes, in the first two pAsuram that I had referred, the reference is to

Jains and Buddhists. But please remember that this can be extended to anya

dEvathAs also, as our poorvAchAryAs have equally chided the anya dEvatha

worship. Unfortunately, the term Hinduism is now being interpreted as one

religion by the westerners. Actually our poorvAchAryAs have classified,

even the advaitha and dvaitha as different religions. Similarly Saivism is

also considered as a separate religion only by our poorvAchAryAs. So we can

conveniently tell that though the two pAsurams were for Jains and Buddhist,

it is applicable to other Vedic religions too.

 

However, the third pAsuram, beyond any doubt, clarifies our question of

justifying anya dEvathA worship as a long followed family tradition.

 

6. The answer for first portion is correct. I do not know dEsika prabhandam

and hence I do not want to comment on it. However, coming to the first

part, the question itself is the answer. Yes, Thirumazhisai AzhwAr did

follow all other religion and came back to our fold. Why? He was completely

convinced beyond any doubts that Sriman nArAyaNan is the parathatvAm and

hence He can give every thing that we need.

 

7. This question has to be viewed with correct mindset. If memebers will

pArdon me, I would like to ask a very rough looking question! This is like

a kanyA sthree asking (having known, I repeat, having known, it is wrong to

do) 'can I go to anybody until I get married. I will become a true wife

after I get married'. Any answer to this?

 

Dear members, I would like to convey here, that though I have asked a rough

question in 7 above, my intention is never to hurt anybody. I was only

trying to bring out the logic in it. So if you feel, you are hurt by this

question, I beg you all to pardon me kindly.

 

AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh

 

 

 

 

Thondar Uhakkum Nin Thunai Adi Vaazhi

 

Can I be enlightened on the following

 

1. As we enter our temples, after paying obeisance at Dwajasthambam, we

worship Garuthman and go to Gajanar (equivalent of Pilliayar). Is it OK ?

 

 

2. What is the role of Gajanar in our temples

 

3. Is it true that on Vinayaka Chathurthi day, kozhukattai is being offered

to the Gajanar in Sri Ranga Vimanam ?

 

4. In Thirumaalai, I want our friends to elucidate on pasuram "Saadhi

Andhanarhalelum, numarhalai pazhipparahil..."

 

5. In the pasurams mentioned by Shri Venkatesh swami, the reference is to

Buddha, Samana, i.e. other Religions. It is correct ?

 

6. Thirumizhisai piran was in our faith and then switched over to other

faiths before coming back to our fold. Thereby he established the

supremacy

of our faith. correct ? Swami Desikan's pasuram "Thai Magathi

varum.......Matrai samayangal pala therindhu"

 

7. For a person who has not had a Bharanyasam (only of course Samasrayam),

can he continue his own way till he comes forward for Baranyasa.

 

It is only with a view to generating interest in the topic and ensure that

the message percolates down to the last srivaishnavan, I am raising them.

Please forgive me if I am wrong.

 

Adiyen

 

Srirangam Srinivasa Raghava dasan

 

 

 

Srirangasri-

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha -Srimathe Nigamantha Mahadesijkaya Namaha - Srimathe

Sri Lakshminarasimha Divya Paduka Sevaka Srivansatakopa Sri Narayana Yateendra

Mahadesikaya Namaha

Nanmathi VAindha NallOrgalE,

Dasasya Vigyapanam. It may be recalled that Nrisimha appeared from the pillar

the moment the asura king hit it. Was the instant Avathara to protect his boy

devotee Prahladha or to tear to pieces his demonic father? Neither.When

Prahladha was thrown into the sea, pushed down the hills, given poison,

trampled by elephants, put into the raging fire, or attacked by fierce snakes,

though the boy devotee was protected by Sriman Narayana's sankalpa, the Lord

himself did not appear on the scene. But surely he manifested at the exact

moment when Hiranyaksha smashed the pillar.Why? The reason (given by our

elders) is The Lord appeared to keep up the word of His boy devotee who said

The Lord is omnipresent (Engumulan Kannan). This one illustration is enough to

prove Who the Supreme Being is. Again When Gajendra wailed in agony and called

"Aadhimoolame" in a distress signal, Who but Sriman Narayana rushed (dragging

even his Vahana Garuda) to the rescue of that elephant king. Aadhimoolame is a

term which does not specifically refer to any deity Vishnu, Siva, Brahma or

Indra. Because the origin or the original source and cause (Adhimoolam) applied

to Sri Maha Vishnu only ie., Sriman Narayana, He alone by virtue of His

omnipotency in all respects spontaneously responded to the agonising call of

his animal devotee who desired to offer a lotus flower in all sincerety in

spite of the torure inflicted by the clutching crocodile. Other deities did not

respond at all and were inwardly praising the Supreme Being who went to the

rescue of that animal with such a great compassion. All our Acharyas and

Azhwars repeatedly glorify the supremacy of Sriman Narayana by quoting these

two episodes. Can there still be doubt in the minds of Bhagavathas? Dasan

Devanathan

>"TV Venkatesh/FXSLF/SEC/SANMAR"

>"Krishna Kashyap"

>CC: raghav (AT) tasugars (DOT) com, >RE:

Question related to Bharniyasanam >Fri, 25 Jan 2002

09:39:27 +0530 > >srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha >srImadh varavara munayE namaha >

>Dear Members, > >Please pardon me for having accidentally hit the send button

before >completing the same. > >AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam

>adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan >Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh > >srImathE rAmAnujAya

namaha >srImadh varavara munayE namaha > >Dear Sri Krishna, > >Thanks for your

foreword. Interestingly, today morning I tuned into Jaya TV >and they were

telecasting a upanyAsam of Srimadh Azhagiasingar. As if to >clear our doubts ,

he clearly quoted the pAsuram "kAkkum iyalvinan kaNNa >perumAn..", means , it

is kaNNan who has the 'saviour character' by nature. >So why to go to any other

devathAs. Additionally he added, even within the >avatArAs of Sriman nArAyaNan,

the best saviour is Narasimhan. Not Rama, >not Krishna. The reason is of

course, it was only Narasimhan who destroyed >the enemy (HiraNyakasibhu) of His

devotee (PrahalAdha) immediately when the >avathArA was made. Rama killed Ravana

only at 37 years of age. Even >Krishna, when He killed the sakaTAsuran, He was

either 4 or 5 months old as >told by Sri periyAzhwAr "nAlgaLOr nAlainthu

thingaLaLavilE, thALai >nimirtthuch chagadatthaich chADippOi..." > >While

pondering over this the following pAsuram of ThiruvAimozhi and the >explanation

given by Sri Velukkudi Krishnan swami came into my mind. > >" AdiyAdi agam

karainthu, isai > pAdip pAdik kaNNeermalgi - engum > nAdi nAdi narasingA enRu >

vAdi vAdum ivvaNudalE" > >Continuation. > >Here, why the AzhwAr does not say "

engum nAdi nAdi rAmA or KrishNa". >Because for the same reason as stated above

by Srimadh Azhagiasingar, it >was only Narasimha who came to the help of His

devotee immediately, true to >word of the same AzhwAr in another pAsuram "...

angu appozhudE avan veeya >thOndRiya, en singappirAn perumai ArAyum

seernaitthE". > >I hope no more clarification is required after these words

from the Jeeyar >swAmi. > >AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam

>adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan >Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh > > > > ><< pic08723.pcx

>> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click Here

[Guest guest]

Devanathan K

[kdevanathan (AT) hotmail (DOT) com]Friday, January 25, 2002 8:03 AMTo:

tvv1 (AT) sanmargroup (DOT) com; kkalale1 (AT) san (DOT) rr.comCc: raghav (AT) tasugars (DOT) com;

Subject: RE: Question related to

Bharniyasanam

>

 

Dear sri Devanathan,

 

I like to know the difference in speed at which the Lord protected different devotees :

 

Dhruva : 6 months

Prahlada: several years ( since as you mentioned: when he got tortured in

different ways the Lord did not appear)

Draupadi: probably in a kshanam due to distress call. I am not sure about

draupadi's prior efforts or bhakti yogam

arjuna: dont know?

the elephant gajendra : several yugas - since the devotee in the past janma, who

became an elephant due to curse, fought with the crocodile for several yugas

according to srimadbhagatam and then got the purva janma jnanam and cried :"

adimoolame".

 

others can cry adimoolame even knowing this issue, but I think it depends on

the karma of each individual and the real bhakti in that person for the lord to

answer right away. Sri krishnapremi maharaj mentions this in his bhagavatam

lectures - that it is really the amount of bhakti people have which will make

the difference. we say "narayana" even while eating or sitting down. we could

even be doing nama sankirtham with all bhakti we have with tears in our eyes (

I mean real feeling in our hearts too) . Though, I am sure there may be a

glimpse of assurance provided internally by the Lord by some kind of peace of

mind or even some internal revelation of some sort to some lucky devotees,

direct pratyaksham of perumal like that of Prahladan or Dhruvan etc. is really

a gift for the bhakti yogis of the highest order. No wonder that bhakti margam

is so difficult to many and probably easy to the folks who have the realization

from purva janma samkaras. Unless one has completely burned all the karmas

vision of God will not be continuous.

 

One thing common to all these devotees is that they probably are closer to

bhakti yogis rather than prapannas. for example sri Prahlada was asked to

meditate for 12000 years more after he experienced the nrisimhavataram, which

probably indicates the amount of prarabhdham or some thing which might have

been left out. THis brings another question as to what happens to statements

such as " bhidyate hridaya granthih chiddhyante sarva samsayah.... tasmin

driste paravare" - ie. all knots of doubts are cut asunder when he is seen". I

guess Prahladan had no doubts from that point though he lived for 12000 years

after seeing Nrisimhar.

 

adiyen Krishna

[Guest guest]

srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha

srImadh varavara munayE namaha

 

Dear Sri Krishna

 

You wrote

 

=== Quote===

Unless one has completely burned all the karmas vision of God will not be

continuous.

 

One thing common to all these devotees is that they probably are closer to

bhakti yogis rather than prapannas. for example sri Prahlada was asked to

meditate for 12000 years more after he experienced the nrisimhavataram,

which probably indicates the amount of prarabhdham or some thing which

might have been left out. THis brings another question as to what happens

to statements such as " bhidyate hridaya granthih chiddhyante sarva

samsayah.... tasmin driste paravare" - ie. all knots of doubts are cut

asunder when he is seen". I guess Prahladan had no doubts from that point

though he lived for 12000 years after seeing Nrisimhar.

=====Unquote====

 

I have a doubt here. W.r.t to the first line, atleast to my knowledge, I

understood that the effects of dOsha, hence karma, will be negated, once

the divine grace of Sriman nArAyaNan falls on the jeevAtmA. While there may

be a difference of opnion in this aspect between Thenkalais and Vadagalais,

as to how it is negated, atleast I understood that the karma has no role to

play before His divine grace. The only difference between Thenkalais and

Vadagalais is that, in Thenkalai, once the prapanna surrenders completely,

His dOsha (again may be interpreted as the karma) becomes bhOgya for Sriman

nArAyaNan, while in Vadagalai, He does not look into the prapanna's dOsha

if the bharanyAsam is done. So how is that He makes the prapanna wait until

the prArabhdha karmAs are completely gotten rid of.

 

If He has to wait for the prapanna to burn down his prArabhdha karmAs and

only then He will take him, will it not become a short coming of His 'sarva

swAmitvam' (Being the lord of everything and anything), and the 'nirankusa

swAthanthriyam'(Unfettered independence)

 

In the same lines as above , in my humble opinion, Sri PrahalAdhA's case

must have been just due to His command ( again nirankusa swAthanthriyam)

and it has nothing to do with Sri PrahalAdhA's prArabhdha karma. For, just

think about the fact that Sri Narasimha, after the HiraNaya vadham, is said

to have blessed prahalAdha directly. Can one think that, such a great

bhAgavatha, even after getting His diving blessings, will still remain to

burn out his karma. Your last three lines exactly mentions the above, in my

humble opinion, but may be in a different perspective.

 

Also if the karma is bound to continue with the prapannA even after His

divine blessings, then how can we justify Sri poigaiyAzhwAr's pAsuram "

kunRanaiya kuRRam seiyyinum guNam koLLum, inRu mudhalAga en nenjE". As is

clear, AzhwAr here refers the day of doing surrender, to the words "inRu

mudhalAga". So he is clear that, from the day when the jeevAtmA realises

the true nature of his, i.e, the sEshatvam, and does prapatti, emberumAn

considers all his past deeds (good and bad both) as bhOgya for Him. And

from here is there a way back for such a jeevAtmA into this materialistic

world?

 

Request you to kindly enlighten me based on my about doubts.

 

AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh

[Guest guest]

asmad gurubhyo namah

srimathe srivan shatakopa sri vedanta desika yathindra maha desikaya namah

srimathe sri lakshmi nrisimha divya paduka sevaka srivan shatakopa sri

narayana yathindra maha desikaya namah

sri lakshmi nrisimha parabramhane namah

 

Sri Venkatesh wrote:

 

 

TV Venkatesh/FXSLF/SEC/SANMAR [tvv1]

Sunday, January 27, 2002 11:37 PM

Krishna Kashyap

Cc: Devanathan K; raghav;

RE: Question related to Bharniyasanam

 

 

srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha

srImadh varavara munayE namaha

 

Dear Sri Krishna

 

You wrote

 

=== Quote===

Unless one has completely burned all the karmas vision of God will not be

continuous.

 

 

***************************

 

Let me explain the first question here only. In the next email I will deal

with sri prahladan's case.

the burning of all karmas is only for a bhakti yogi. this does not apply to

prapannas. a number of examples such as jadabharatha, prahlada etc. come

under bhakti yogi category. the issue whether sri prahladan asked for

moksha immediately is the question which I have to refer to bhagavatam to

make sure. I will do that shortly.

 

for a prapanna complete mahavishvasa at the time of prapatti and an

appropriate life style till the end of his/her life acts as a vyajam for

srimannarayana's grace to completely annihilate all the karmas within this

life itself. Hence there is no issue here.

 

 

adiyen Krishna Kashyap

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Srirangasri-

 

 

 

Your use of is subject to

[Guest guest]

srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha

srImadh varavara munayE namaha

 

Dear Sri Krishna,

 

Thanks for the message. Now it is clear. I am awaiting your posting on Sri

PrahalAdhA's case.

 

AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan

Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh

 

 

 

 

"Krishna

Kashyap" "TV Venkatesh/FXSLF/SEC/SANMAR"

<kkalale1@san <tvv1, "Krishna

Kashyap"

.rr.com> <kkalale1

cc: "Devanathan K"

29-01-02 <kdevanathan,

08:56 PM <raghav,

<>

RE: Question

related to Bharniyasanam

 

 

 

 

 

asmad gurubhyo namah

srimathe srivan shatakopa sri vedanta desika yathindra maha desikaya namah

srimathe sri lakshmi nrisimha divya paduka sevaka srivan shatakopa sri

narayana yathindra maha desikaya namah

sri lakshmi nrisimha parabramhane namah

 

Sri Venkatesh wrote:

 

 

TV Venkatesh/FXSLF/SEC/SANMAR [tvv1]

Sunday, January 27, 2002 11:37 PM

Krishna Kashyap

Cc: Devanathan K; raghav;

RE: Question related to Bharniyasanam

 

 

srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha

srImadh varavara munayE namaha

 

Dear Sri Krishna

 

You wrote

 

=== Quote===

Unless one has completely burned all the karmas vision of God will not be

continuous.

 

 

***************************

 

Let me explain the first question here only. In the next email I will deal

with sri prahladan's case.

the burning of all karmas is only for a bhakti yogi. this does not apply

to

prapannas. a number of examples such as jadabharatha, prahlada etc. come

under bhakti yogi category. the issue whether sri prahladan asked for

moksha immediately is the question which I have to refer to bhagavatam to

make sure. I will do that shortly.

 

for a prapanna complete mahavishvasa at the time of prapatti and an

appropriate life style till the end of his/her life acts as a vyajam for

srimannarayana's grace to completely annihilate all the karmas within this

life itself. Hence there is no issue here.

 

 

adiyen Krishna Kashyap

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Srirangasri-

 

 

 

Your use of is subject to

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The information contained in this message is legally privileged and

confidential information intended only for the use of the addressed

individual or entity indicated in this message (or responsible for

delivery of the message to such person). It must not be read, copied,

disclosed, distributed or used by any person other than the addressee.

Unauthorised use, disclosure or copying is strictly prohibited and may be

unlawful.

 

Opinions, conclusions and other information on this message that do not

relate to the official business of any of the constituent companies of

the SANMAR GROUP shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by

the Group.

 

If you have received this message in error, you should destroy this

message and kindly notify the sender by e-mail.

 

Thank you.

 

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