Guest guest Posted June 26, 2004 Report Share Posted June 26, 2004 --- Dear Miles, thanks for this posting.Coincidently part of yesterday's Chat Room was spent on asking on what were the fundamental flaws in Neo Advaita .I felt that they do not admit there is any obscuration of the Self and therefore do not advocate Sadhana .Also they do not seem to make any distinction between Reflected and Absolute Consciousness. .The West is flooded with Neo Advaita , currently , many teachers clainng 'awakening has happened' so times don't change .I expect there are many other differences as well .Ramana tells us 'why all these arguements." We missed you in the Chat Room , but John coped admirably .Warmest regards and best wishes ,in His Grace, Alan <miles.wright wrote: > > > The article below is from 'Letters from Sri Ramanasramam' by Srimati Suri > Nagamma, published by the Ashram (taken from 1995 edition). Although the > events took place almost 60 years ago, like most (if not all) Bhagavan > stories, it seems to maintain a poignancy which transcends time and > environment. > > > > > > 8th February, 1948 > > Nihilists and Advaitins > > When I went into the hall this morning, everything was quiet. The smoke of > the incense-sticks enveloped the whole atmosphere and a sweet smell was > emanating from all sides. Bhagavan had finished reading the newspapers and > was sitting in a calm attitude. Krishnaswami was winding the clock. > Unexpectedly someone asked, 'Nihilists and Advaitins go on arguing among > themselves without end. What exactly are their differences?' > > The clock struck the hours 'Tung, Tung.' With a smile, Bhagavan said, ''You > want to know the differences of opinion? Look here. Just now, the clock has > been wound; it has been working and has struck the hours. 'There must be > someone to wind the clock; otherwise the clock will not work,' say the > Advaitins. 'It is admitted that there must be someone to wind the clock; > there must then be someone to give the power or the ability to that someone, > and so on. If we proceed on that basis, there will be no beginning and no > end, and so there is no such person as 'doer' (Karta),' say the Nihilists. > These are the differences of opinion. For instance, take this towel. It is > not separate from the cotton. What does that mean? The cotton is first > changed into seedless cotton, then into yarn and finally into cloth. For > doing all that there must be someone, and so the weaver is called the > 'doer', and it is admitted that the various colours and varieties of cloth > are not different from the basic thing, namely, the cotton. In the same > manner, the Advaitins say that though there is a 'doer' for the innumerable > varieties that go to make up the world, none of them is different from that > which Is, namely, Existence (Sat). There must be pots--big and small--but > they are all mere earth. If anyone of them gets broken, we say that the pot > is lost. But what is it that is lost? Only the name and form. When name and > form are lost, the earth still remains, as earth. But then, pots can only be > made if there is a potter. So the Advaitins say there is a 'doer' as an > efficient cause. Nihilists say, 'No'. Arguments increase but the net result > is zero. There will be no difficulties if they find out who it is that is > arguing.'' > > ''Why then all these arguments?'' said the questioner. > > ''That is because all which is inside of a person must come out. There will > be several thoughts inside,'' said Bhagavan. > > One of the devotees who heard this said, ''What, Bhagavan? You say that > which is inside will always come out. How will it come out? What is there > inside?'' > > Bhagavan smilingly said, ''Unless there is something inside, how can > anything come out? Unless some desire is born inside, nothing appears > outside. Desire is born inside only. It develops into a big thing and come > out ultimately.'' > > > > > -- > "ekam sat vipraa bahudhaa vadanti > That which exists is One; sages call it by various names." > > ===== Life is a pure flame,and we live by an invisible Sun within us. _________ALL-NEW Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2004 Report Share Posted June 26, 2004 --- Dear Miles, thanks for this posting.Coincidently part of yesterday's Chat Room was spent onasking on what were the fundamental flaws in Neo Advaita .I felt that they do not admit there is any obscuration of the Self There being none other that the Self, the apparent obscuration of the Self, has to be a play of the Self. The ending of which, is also by the Self. and therefore do not advocate Sadhana . Not advocating Sadhana, is also an advocation. Jiddu Krishnamurthy for 6 decades spoke of the Pathless path to Truth. Which became the Path. The presence of Sadhana, in whichever form in the moment or the absence of Sadhana in the moment, has no casual link to the removal of the obscuration of the Self, if that is believed to be the objective of the Sadhana. Sadhana in the moment, seen to be complete in itself in that moment, is nothing but the Self. The Self for which, neither obscuration nor clarity is of any relevance. Also they do not seem to makeany distinction between Reflected and Absolute Consciousness. Who is the "they", when there is no distinction between the Relative and the Absolute. "The Absolute is all there IS. Hence the Absolute must necessarily transcend the relative, because the relative is only it's image. And the Absolute must also be immanent in the relative because the relative has no independent existence of it's own. The substance must necessarily at once transcend and be immanent in the shadow. Thus manifestation appears in Consciousness, and is cognized by Consciousness, the cognizing happening only in Consciousness. And it is thus, that duality is purely notional." The great neo-Advaitist Ramana himself said There is no greater mystery than this - that being the Reality ourselves, we seek to gain Reality. We think that there is something binding our Reality and that it must be destroyed before the Reality is gained. It is so ridiculous. A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That,...... which is on the day of laughter,......... is also now. .The West is flooded with NeoAdvaita , currently , many teachers clainng 'awakening has happened' so times don't change .Iexpect there are many other differences as well .Ramana tells us 'why all these arguements." We missed you in the Chat Room , but John coped admirably .Warmest regards and best wishes ,in HisGrace, Alan Love Avril Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2004 Report Share Posted June 27, 2004 om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya Dear Alan, > ---thanks for this posting.Coincidently part of yesterday's Chat Room was > spent on asking on what were the fundamental flaws in Neo Advaita .I felt that they do > not admit there is any obscuration of the Self and therefore do not advocate Sadhana .Also they > do not seem to make any distinction between Reflected and Absolute Consciousness. .The West is > flooded with Neo Advaita , currently , many teachers clainng 'awakening has happened' so times > don't change .I expect there are many other differences as well .Ramana tells us 'why all > these arguements." Indeed. If there are any flaws in Neo Vedanta, they are of little real concern to any but the philosophers, academics and others with a vested self-interest. That one fundamental flaw, having reared its head, sets all others in motion. As long as one does not look closely at this fundamental flaw it gives so much trouble, yet, when one looks closely for it, it is found not to exist. All these 'things' are inseparable from this primary 'flaw' - ahamkara ('I'-maker). If one is pulled towards Ramana and his Self-enquiry, worrying about teachers who say otherwise becomes counter-productive to this sadhana. That which is at one time faith will become knowledge.* To simply apply oneself to the steady search for Self is all that is required. It is ego and ego alone which is pulled hither and thither. Like a hammer searching around frantically for spurious nails, which it believes it has a natural (innate) ability to bang in, it begs the question! The obscuration or veiling (avarana) of the Self is a characteristic of ignorance and not of the Self, which remains Self-evident at all times. So why should one not make an attempt to brush the veil aside? Where's the harm? If it is the case that I know I exist, yet do not really know who I am, then looking for a little extra light to shine on the problem seems sensible. Although the veiling might not obscure completely, pulling aside a closed curtain in the middle of the day is a very revealing experience. * 'The faith of every man is in accordance with his innate disposition (whether sattva; rajas; or tamas etc.), O Bharata. Man is made of faith, as his faith is, so he is. The man of faith, occupied with That only, with senses under control, obtains Knowledge (jñana). Having obtained knowledge he very soon discovers Peace Supreme. To those, who are constantly engaged in worshipping Me with devotion, I give the Yoga of intellect (i.e. Enquiry), by which they come to Me. Out of compassion for them, abiding in their Self, I destroy their nescience born of ignorance, with the resplendent Lamp of Knowledge. For those whose ignorance is destroyed by Knowledge of the Self, Knowledge, like the sun, reveals the Supreme in them.' (Verses 17 - 21 of Bhagavan's Selection from Bhagavad Gita) Self-enquiry has never been something alien. It is the natural predilection. > We missed you in the Chat Room , but John coped admirably . I trust all went well. Ever Yours in SrI bhagavAn, Miles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2004 Report Share Posted June 27, 2004 ---Dear Miles, Thank you for this valuable posting , which brings light on the topic .My only concern is for oir Members of Ramana Maharshi Foundation UK who are swamped by the 'nothing to do-no -where to go school' and it is my role to assist in pointing out what you rightly term the fundamental flaw where there is confusion ..With respect and thanks, warm regards , in His Grace, Alan <miles.wright wrote: > om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya > > Dear Alan, > > > ---thanks for this posting.Coincidently part of yesterday's Chat Room was > > spent on asking on what were the fundamental flaws in Neo Advaita .I felt that > they do > > not admit there is any obscuration of the Self and therefore do not advocate > Sadhana .Also they > > do not seem to make any distinction between Reflected and Absolute > Consciousness. .The West is > > flooded with Neo Advaita , currently , many teachers clainng 'awakening has > happened' so times > > don't change .I expect there are many other differences as well .Ramana tells > us 'why all > > these arguements." > > Indeed. > > If there are any flaws in Neo Vedanta, they are of little real concern to > any but the philosophers, academics and others with a vested self-interest. > That one fundamental flaw, having reared its head, sets all others in > motion. As long as one does not look closely at this fundamental flaw it > gives so much trouble, yet, when one looks closely for it, it is found not > to exist. All these 'things' are inseparable from this primary 'flaw' - > ahamkara ('I'-maker). > > If one is pulled towards Ramana and his Self-enquiry, worrying about > teachers who say otherwise becomes counter-productive to this sadhana. That > which is at one time faith will become knowledge.* To simply apply oneself > to the steady search for Self is all that is required. It is ego and ego > alone which is pulled hither and thither. Like a hammer searching around > frantically for spurious nails, which it believes it has a natural (innate) > ability to bang in, it begs the question! > > The obscuration or veiling (avarana) of the Self is a characteristic of > ignorance and not of the Self, which remains Self-evident at all times. So > why should one not make an attempt to brush the veil aside? Where's the > harm? If it is the case that I know I exist, yet do not really know who > I am, then looking for a little extra light to shine on the problem seems > sensible. Although the veiling might not obscure completely, pulling aside a > closed curtain in the middle of the day is a very revealing experience. > > * 'The faith of every man is in accordance with his innate disposition > (whether sattva; rajas; or tamas etc.), O Bharata. Man is made of faith, as > his faith is, so he is. The man of faith, occupied with That only, with > senses under control, obtains Knowledge (jñana). Having obtained knowledge > he very soon discovers Peace Supreme. To those, who are constantly engaged > in worshipping Me with devotion, I give the Yoga of intellect (i.e. > Enquiry), by which they come to Me. Out of compassion for them, abiding in > their Self, I destroy their nescience born of ignorance, with the > resplendent Lamp of Knowledge. For those whose ignorance is destroyed by > Knowledge of the Self, Knowledge, like the sun, reveals the Supreme in > them.' > > (Verses 17 - 21 of Bhagavan's Selection from Bhagavad Gita) > > Self-enquiry has never been something alien. It is the natural predilection. > > > We missed you in the Chat Room , but John coped admirably . > > I trust all went well. > > Ever Yours in SrI bhagavAn, > Miles > ===== Life is a pure flame,and we live by an invisible Sun within us. _________ALL-NEW Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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