Celestial Music Miles et al.

[Guest guest]

Dear Miles, Rob, et al,

Alton:When Ramana stated that "only a purified mind can do any practice", is not

a purified mind on a progressive scale of a more purified and less purified?

Well, not really! A purified mind is one which dedicates its actions (and any

fruit of said actions) to God. You mean A purified mind dedicates its actions

to a CONCEPT. Why not Satan? As far as spiritual practice goes... it doesn't

happen until this fundamental principal is understood. Are you talking from

experience or theory? For the present discussion this is very important because

if one is still looking for results and monitoring progress then dedication of

actions (surrender) has not happened. Then why practice at all? How can one

practice and surrender at the same time or is surrender on a gradual scale?

When Richard talks about deepening and when Miles talks about Vichara becoming

automatic, is that not progress? When Nisargadatta talks about stages and at a

certain stage one will be able to see the past and future is that not progress?

The various states of Samadhi, is that not progress? At a certain stage

headaches may come, is that not progress toward a goal?

Of course if you want to take the conceptual view that everything is the Self

than I agree with your premises, but since only a few, according to Godman have

reached the state of no 'I' thoughts and what Ramana calls 'non-perception of

objects, I go with the progress faction.

If one accepts the working of prarabdha then we should blindly surrender to what

ever in happening in our life and say it is the will of God? If we strive for

anything is our life we then can characterize it as ego foolishness. Lets now

become enslaved in surrender and take a hit of the opiate religions of the

masses.This is not my cup of tea. I wont wait for Christ to come and raise us

from the grave. Now aren't I a sinful seeker?

Surrender of fruits of action (good and bad) is all that is required. This does

not mean that one should not go about life to the best of one's abilities. Only

that one need not stand up and demand credit, kudos etc. Prarabdha is, in

effect, an expunging of unspent vasanas, that's all. 'The karma disapproved by

them [scriptures] is that which is done with a sense of doership.... Karma may

be done for fame, or may be done unselfishly and for the public good. Yet even

then they want applause.' (Ramana Maharshi)

 

These are very high mental states, that few can attain? More win the 200 million dollar lottery.

Anything attempted in this phenomenal plane can be measured on a progressive scale.

This desire to measure is the very problem we are trying to overcome. It is this

very 'measuring out' which sustains 'maya'.

 

At a certain stage of progress one gives up the quest to get through the door to

the Godhead. I agree with that. When I first stated to meditate when I sat for

1/2 hour it was like torture. Now at 5 hours per day I see that some powers of

progress are manifesting. The fact that I can stay up and meditate with only

two hours of sleep to me is progress.

When I am able to concentrate enough to stop the discursive thinking I will see progress.

When I am able to go into Samadhi at will I will see that as progress. When an

unexpected event arises that causes a reaction and I am able to let it go as

soon as it is seen, I will see that as progress.

People here want something that only a handful can attain. They put their spin

on the teachings and hoodwink themselves into believing that it will happen to

them. I am a realist and want what I can attain with training.

 

 

To attain that state IMO took many lifetimes of practice and it could have been

measured on a progressive gradient scale. Maybe two lifetimes ago when you hit

his on the head during his trance he would come out. With more practice he

would not.Practice is not cumulative. The mind's desire to pattern its world

makes it appear cumulative. Practice is practice until it spontaneously stops

being practice.

I agree the mind is deluded but until the delusions disappear though mindfulness

I see it as being on a gradient from delusion to clarity.

Really, how many alive today have achieved the no "I thought state".

It is a daily occurrence for every one.

 

We have a family friend that when someone spit on her face she would say it raining.

A very nice mental state to be in and to believe that we are in the no "I

thought state is also a very nice place to be in.

Miles I hope that your wont loose to many member because of this dialogue.

You know that I am very sensitive to receives email with expletive on them say

that you are loosing members because of me. ROFLMAO

With all the love that a concept grants me,

 

If God does not give me what I desire, as far as progress in meditation, before

I exit this vehicle, I will give God the finger and then worship Satan, who

might fulfill my meditation desires.

 

Some great Pakistani psychic came to our house and he said I have too much

desire. Do you think he was right? LOL.

Alton

[Guest guest]

Xerox obliterates this sentence which is not very important but here

it is anyway.

 

You mean A purified mind dedicates its actions to a CONCEPT. Why not

Satan?

[Guest guest]

Dear Alton,

 

Just a couple of comments:

 

One of the teachers at SAT, Russell Smith, says that inquiry is

systematic and progressive. (Naturally he also has talked

about "Sudden Enlightenment.)

 

(all of these statements depend on the "point of view." If they are

from the standpoint of "No Creation" held by the jnani, this

statement makes no sense, since there is no one ever created to

practice. If from the standpoint of one who identifies with this

body/mind/ego, then it makes sense and encourages continued practice.)

 

When it was said, of the no I-thought state that "It is a daily

occurrence for every one." the deep sleep state was what was referred

to.

 

Also it was said, "Practice is not cumulative." I do not know that my

teacher would agree with this. I have heard it said that no practice

is ever waisted. I have also read (I think in Ramana's words)0 of

practice in previous incarnations that lead to jnani's Self-

realization in this incarnation.

 

I am glad to "see" your voice again in these newgroups. (Even though

you are a troublemaker).

 

We are not two,

Richard

 

RamanaMaharshi, "UNBOUND" <leenalton@h...>

wrote:

>

> Dear Miles, Rob, et al,

>

>

> Alton:

> When Ramana stated that "only a purified mind can do any

practice", is not a purified mind on a progressive scale of a more

purified and less purified?

[Guest guest]

Mind purification for 24 hrs is not pssible for any humanbeing. Only God can

have the same.Great saints of all religion have such problems.

-

UNBOUND

RAMANA GROUP

Thursday, February 27, 2003 3:17 AM

[RamanaMaharshi] Celestial Music Miles et al.

Dear Miles, Rob, et al,

Alton:When Ramana stated that "only a purified mind can do any practice", is not

a purified mind on a progressive scale of a more purified and less purified?

Well, not really! A purified mind is one which dedicates its actions (and any

fruit of said actions) to God. You mean A purified mind dedicates its actions

to a CONCEPT. Why not Satan? As far as spiritual practice goes... it doesn't

happen until this fundamental principal is understood. Are you talking from

experience or theory? For the present discussion this is very important because

if one is still looking for results and monitoring progress then dedication of

actions (surrender) has not happened. Then why practice at all? How can one

practice and surrender at the same time or is surrender on a gradual scale?

When Richard talks about deepening and when Miles talks about Vichara becoming

automatic, is that not progress? When Nisargadatta talks about stages and at a

certain stage one will be able to see the past and future is that not progress?

The various states of Samadhi, is that not progress? At a certain stage

headaches may come, is that not progress toward a goal?

Of course if you want to take the conceptual view that everything is the Self

than I agree with your premises, but since only a few, according to Godman have

reached the state of no 'I' thoughts and what Ramana calls 'non-perception of

objects, I go with the progress faction.

If one accepts the working of prarabdha then we should blindly surrender to what

ever in happening in our life and say it is the will of God? If we strive for

anything is our life we then can characterize it as ego foolishness. Lets now

become enslaved in surrender and take a hit of the opiate religions of the

masses.This is not my cup of tea. I wont wait for Christ to come and raise us

from the grave. Now aren't I a sinful seeker?

Surrender of fruits of action (good and bad) is all that is required. This does

not mean that one should not go about life to the best of one's abilities. Only

that one need not stand up and demand credit, kudos etc. Prarabdha is, in

effect, an expunging of unspent vasanas, that's all. 'The karma disapproved by

them [scriptures] is that which is done with a sense of doership.... Karma may

be done for fame, or may be done unselfishly and for the public good. Yet even

then they want applause.' (Ramana Maharshi)

 

These are very high mental states, that few can attain? More win the 200 million dollar lottery.

Anything attempted in this phenomenal plane can be measured on a progressive scale.

This desire to measure is the very problem we are trying to overcome. It is this

very 'measuring out' which sustains 'maya'.

 

At a certain stage of progress one gives up the quest to get through the door to

the Godhead. I agree with that. When I first stated to meditate when I sat for

1/2 hour it was like torture. Now at 5 hours per day I see that some powers of

progress are manifesting. The fact that I can stay up and meditate with only

two hours of sleep to me is progress.

When I am able to concentrate enough to stop the discursive thinking I will see progress.

When I am able to go into Samadhi at will I will see that as progress. When an

unexpected event arises that causes a reaction and I am able to let it go as

soon as it is seen, I will see that as progress.

People here want something that only a handful can attain. They put their spin

on the teachings and hoodwink themselves into believing that it will happen to

them. I am a realist and want what I can attain with training.

 

 

To attain that state IMO took many lifetimes of practice and it could have been

measured on a progressive gradient scale. Maybe two lifetimes ago when you hit

his on the head during his trance he would come out. With more practice he

would not.Practice is not cumulative. The mind's desire to pattern its world

makes it appear cumulative. Practice is practice until it spontaneously stops

being practice.

I agree the mind is deluded but until the delusions disappear though mindfulness

I see it as being on a gradient from delusion to clarity.

Really, how many alive today have achieved the no "I thought state".

It is a daily occurrence for every one.

 

We have a family friend that when someone spit on her face she would say it raining.

A very nice mental state to be in and to believe that we are in the no "I

thought state is also a very nice place to be in.

Miles I hope that your wont loose to many member because of this dialogue.

You know that I am very sensitive to receives email with expletive on them say

that you are loosing members because of me. ROFLMAO

With all the love that a concept grants me,

 

If God does not give me what I desire, as far as progress in meditation, before

I exit this vehicle, I will give God the finger and then worship Satan, who

might fulfill my meditation desires.

 

Some great Pakistani psychic came to our house and he said I have too much

desire. Do you think he was right? LOL.

Alton

[Guest guest]

om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya

Dear Alton,

Are you talking from experience or theory?

Theory supports experience. Experience confirms theory. I used to check for

progress and set deadlines for attainment at regular intervals. But then no one

was kind enough to tell me that was the illusion. I stumbled on that, by

accident.

A purified mind dedicates its actions to a CONCEPT.

Surrender of ego is essential. To God, Guru, or Self. If you want to surrender

ego to CONCEPT, then that will do if it eradicates the 'I did this' or 'I am

doing this' syndrome.

but since only a few, according to Godman have reached the state of no 'I'

thoughts and what Ramana calls 'non-perception of objects, I go with the

progress faction.

That's not the experience here. If we must measure/acknowledge progress here is

the formula: 'Progress is measured by the degree of removal of the obstacles to

understanding that the Self is always realised.' (Ramana Maharshi) Any linear

progress which posits a future Realisation should be dismissed.

Then why practice at all?

When there is ego, there is practice, with effort. Ego senses the innate state

and begins to search for a way out of the human condition. But practice remains

practice until ego is not, then practice is resolved as Being. This is

spontaneous. The illusion of progress is the domain of ego. Ego is the problem.

If we search for progress, acknowledge progress, then we do no more than bolster

ego and encourage it on to an 'enlightenment' in the distant future, when

progress is sufficient. This is nonsense. We can put up with that for a little

while until the folly is noticed. There is no enlightenment in the future.

There is only the removal of the erroneous idea 'I am not realised' now. Vicara

having been practiced, at some point clicks in spontaneously. Opening to this is

Grace.

How can one practice and surrender at the same time or is surrender on a gradual scale?

Surrender is a prerequisite to practice. Practice is a prerequisite to

surrender. In relative terms the illusion of gradual surrender might be

acknowledged. But real surrender must be absolute, without gradation. Surrender

(of ego) is Vicara and vice versa.

when Miles talks about Vichara becoming automatic, is that not progress?

It is an end to progress. And the realisation that to seek progress was the problem.

When Nisargadatta talks about stages and at a certain stage one will be able to

see the past and future is that not progress?

You'll have to ask him.

Of course if you want to take the conceptual view that everything is the Self

than I agree with your premises,

This is not conceptual. This is common sense. This is common experience. The

only barrier is Self-denial.

People here want something that only a handful can attain. They put their spin

on the teachings and hoodwink themselves into believing that it will happen to

them. I am a realist and want what I can attain with training.

 

The 'I' wanting to attain is symptomatic of the problem.

Ever Yours in Sri Bhagavan,

Miles

[Guest guest]

An ancient maxim found in the Dhammapada sums up the practice of the Buddha's

teaching in three simple guidelines to training: to abstain from all evil, to

cultivate good, and to purify one's mind. These three principles form a graded

sequence of steps progressing from the outward and preparatory to the inward

and essential . Each step leads naturally into the one that follows it, and the

culmination of the three in purification of mind makes it plain that the heart

of Buddhist practice is to be found here.

Purification of mind as understood in the Buddha's teaching is the sustained

endeavor to cleanse the mind of defilements, those dark unwholesome mental

forces which run beneath the surface stream of consciousness vitiating our

thinking, values, attitudes, and actions. The chief among the defilements are

the three that the Buddha has termed the "roots of evil" -- greed, hatred, and

delusion -- from which emerge their numerous offshoots and variants: anger and

cruelty, avarice and envy, conceit and arrogance, hypocrisy and vanity, the

multitude of erroneous views. Contemporary attitudes do not look favorably upon

such notions as defilement and purity, and on first encounter they may strike us

as throwbacks to an outdated moralism, valid perhaps in an era when prudery and

taboo were dominant, but having no claims upon us emancipated torchbearers of

modernity. Admittedly, we do not all wallow in the mire of gross materialism

and many among us seek our enlightenments and spiritual highs, but we want them

on our own terms, and as heirs of the new freedom we believe they are to be won

through an unbridled quest for experience without any special need for

introspection, personal change, or self-control. However, in the Buddha's

teaching the criterion of genuine enlightenment lies precisely in purity of

mind. The purpose of all insight and enlightened understanding is to liberate

the mind from the defilements, and Nibbana itself, the goal of the teaching, is

defined quite clearly as freedom from greed, hatred, and delusion. From the

perspective of the Dhamma defilement and purity are not mere postulates of a

rigid authoritarian moralism but real and solid facts essential to a correct

understanding of the human situation in the world. As facts of lived

experience, defilement and purity pose a vital distinction having a crucial

significance for those who seek deliverance from suffering. They represent the

two points between which the path to liberation unfolds -- the former its

problematic and starting point, the latter its resolution and end. The

defilements, the Buddha declares, lie at the bottom of all human suffering.

Burning within as lust and craving, as rage and resentment, they lay to waste

hearts, lives, hopes, and civilizations, and drive us blind and thirsty through

the round of birth and death. The Buddha describes the defilements as bonds,

fetters, hindrances, and knots; thence the path to unbonding, release, and

liberation, to untying the knots, is at the same time a discipline aimed at

inward cleansing. The work of purification must be undertaken in the same place

where the defilements arise, in the mind itself, and the main method the Dhamma

offers for purifying the mind is meditation. Meditation, in the Buddhist

training, is neither a quest for self-effusive ecstasies nor a technique of

home-applied psychotherapy, but a carefully devised method of mental

development -- theoretically precise and practically efficient -- for attaining

inner purity and spiritual freedom. The principal tools of Buddhist meditation

are the core wholesome mental factors of energy, mindfulness, concentration,

and understanding. But in the systematic practice of meditation, these are

strengthened and yoked together in a program of self-purification which aims at

extirpating the defilements root and branch so that not even the subtlest

unwholesome stirrings remain. Since all defiled states of consciousness are

born from ignorance the most deeply embedded defilement, the final and ultimate

purification of mind is to be accomplished through the instrumentality of

wisdom, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are. Wisdom, however,

does not arise through chance or random good intentions, but only in a purified

mind. Thus in order for wisdom to come forth and accomplish the ultimate

purification through the eradication of defilements, we first have to create a

space for it by developing a provisional purification of mind -- a purification

which, though temporary and vulnerable, is still indispensable as a foundation

for the emergence of all liberative insight. The achievement of this

preparatory purification of mind begins with the challenge of

self-understanding. To eliminate defilements we must first learn to know them,

to detect them at work infiltrating and dominating our everyday thoughts and

lives. For countless eons we have acted on the spur of greed, hatred, and

delusion, and thus the work of self-purification cannot be executed hastily, in

obedience to our demand for quick results. The task requires patience, care, and

persistence -- and the Buddha's crystal clear instructions. For every defilement

the Buddha in his compassion has given us the antidote, the method to emerge

from it and vanquish it. By learning these principles and applying them

properly, we can gradually wear away the most stubborn inner stains and reach

the end of suffering, the "taintless liberation of the mind."

-----

[Guest guest]

Yoga -- Purification of Mind

This is a favourable time, too, for the practice of yoga. You must have heard

something about yoga, and seen people trying to put their bodies in strange

positions, to make them lighter and more pliable. Through centuries of

experiment it has been discovered that certain postures favour health and

peacefulness. Looking closely you may also see the yogi practising breathing

exercises, which he has carefully learned from a teacher. Control of the

breath, the yogis say, eventually gives us control of the mind; it is wrong

thoughts which produce bad deeds. But so far, this is the physical side of

yoga. Its purpose is health and self-control, so that one's body may not be

disturbed by anything. That is only a part. What Indians know as yoga embraces

the whole of life. It is putting into practice the great truths of Hindu

religious belief. There is nothing in life which is not yoga; our thoughts, our

actions and feelings -- all have to be brought into harmony; for yoga means

"union".So there is the yoga of concentration or meditation. This is a great

art, learning to make our mind, which is often restless as a monkey, calm and

still. Then, like still water it will reflect the Divine Light. The yogi has to

take his attention away from sights and sounds and feelings, whether outside or

inside his body. Then he has to concentrate on the Light within. After a while

he begins to see the Light and to feel its strength and peace.

[Guest guest]

The Seven Purifications

Process Only

We have looked at the path to freedom by analysing it into three aspects:

anicca, followed by dukkha, followed by anatta. Now we will expand this

structure into seven aspects, seeing the path in terms of the seven

purifications. Note that while the list is different, the path is the same. It

is just that we are analysing it into more detail.

In the Rathavinita-sutta, Sariputta questions ` Ven. Punna Mantaniputta about

the reason for living the "holy life" - ie, doing the practice:

"Is it for the sake of purification of ethics that the holy life is lived under the Blessed One?"

"No, friend."

"Is it for the sake of purification of mind that the holy life is lived under the Blessed One?"

"No, friend."

"Is it for the sake of purification of view that the holy life is lived under the Blessed One?"

"No, friend."

"Is it for the sake of purification by overcoming doubt that the holy life is

lived under the Blessed One?"

"No, friend."

"Is it for the sake of purification by knowing and seeing what is and what is

not the path that the holy life is lived under the Blessed One?"

"No, friend."

"Is it for the sake of purification by knowledge and vision of the way that the

holy life is lived under the Blessed One?"

"No, friend."

"Is it for the sake of purification by knowledge and vision that the holy life

is lived under the Blessed One.?"

"No, friend."

"For the sake of what, friend, is the holy life lived under the Blessed One?"

"Friend, it is for the sake of final nibbana without clinging that the holy life

is lived under the Blessed One."

Ven. Punna mantaniputta explains:

"Suppose that King Pasenadi of Kosala, while living at Savatti had some urgent

business to settle at Saketa, and that between Savatthi and Saketa seven relay

chariots were kept ready for him. Then king Pasenadii of Kosala, leaving

Savatthi…would mount the first relay chariot, and by means of the first relay

chariot he would arrive at the second relay chariot, then he would dismount

from the first relay chariot and mount the second relay chariot, and by means

of the second chariot, he would arrive at the third chariot…the fourth

chariot…the fifth chariot…the sixth chariot…the seventh chariot, and by means

of the seventh chariot he would arrive at…Saketa…

"So too, friend, purification of ethics is for the sake of reaching purification

of mind; purification of mind is for the sake of reaching purification of view;

purification of view is for the sake of reaching purification by knowing and

seeing what is and what is not the path, purification by knowing and seeing

what is and what is not the path for the sake of purification by knowledge and

vision of the way; purification by knowledge and vision of the way is for the

sake of purification by knowledge and vision; purification by knowledge and

vision is for the sake of reaching final nibbana without clinging that the holy

life is lived under the Blessed One."

Note how we began with one simple principle: just see body as body, mind as

mind. From this we analysed the meditator’s experience into three aspects:

anicca, dukkha, anatta. Now experience is divided into seven aspects. The

simplicity of the practice remains; but the analysis of what happens as a

result of the practice becomes more complex, as it is subject to more detailed

analysis.

What is the basic point that Ven. Punna Mantaniputta is trying to get across? He

is seeing experience as a process of purification. Here I want to emphasise the

aspect of process. When he investigates his mind-body process, consciousness

begins to change; things start to happen. He looks for the cracks in the

solidity of his experience, and as a result he discovers that his mind-body is

not a solid entity but a process, flowing like a river, never still for a

single moment. What he does not do is stop this process at any point.

This is one of the most difficult aspects of satipatthana practice: maintaining

the purity of process; not getting stuck anywhere. Where we get stuck is where

we identify with experience, where we think "This is me!". It may be pleasant

experience. The meditator has a clear and peaceful session, thinks "This is it!

This is what it’s all about", and then tries to reproduce the same experience

later. Or he wants some particular experience to occur, and he gets stuck on

his hopes, desires and ambitions. Or he has some unpleasant, painful

experience, reacts against it and tries to avoid it in the future. All these

are examples of getting stuck in attachment or aversion. The opposite of

stuckness is process: just watching the ceaseless flow of experiences that make

up mind and body. Getting stuck in experience is like King Pasendi becoming so

obsessed by one particular chariot that he never makes it to Saketa; he just

spends his time riding back and forth in one or two chariots, completely

forgetting the purpose of his journey.