Talk 8 - Mantra

[Guest guest]

om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya

---------

 

8: Can anyone get any benefit by repeating sacred syllables (mantras)

picked up casually?

 

Maharshi: 'No. He must be competent and initiated in such mantras.'

Maharshi illustrated this by the following story :

 

A King visited his Premier in his residence. There he was told that the

Premier was engaged in repetition of sacred syllables (japa). The King

waited for him and, on meeting him, asked what the japa was. The Premier

said it was the holiest of all, Gayatri. The King desired to be initiated by

the Premier. But the Premier confessed his inability to initiate him.

Therefore the King learned it from someone else, and meeting the Minister

later he repeated the Gayatri and wanted to know if it was right. The

minister said that the mantra was correct, but it was not proper for him to

say it. When pressed for an explanation, the Minister called to a page close

by and ordered him to take hold of the King. The order was not obeyed. The

order was often repeated, and still not obeyed. The King flew into a rage

and ordered the same man to hold the Minister, and it was immediately done.

The Minister laughed and said that the incident was the explanation required

by the King. 'How?' asked the King. The Minister replied, 'The order was the

same and the executor also, but the authority was different. When I ordered,

the effect was nil, whereas, when you ordered, there was immediate effect.

Similarly with mantras.'

[Guest guest]

Dear Mark,

 

It seems that that cogent little story gets around. I heard it as a

satsang in Sant Mat some years ago. That it makes rounds and no one

is really given credit for the story does not in any way diminish its

Truth. I guess the characters could be changed around infinitely and

the effect would yet be the same.

 

However, I did question this story's relevance to the "outer guru" do

you know what I mean? It presupposes then that someone physically

outside of the aspirant is "giving power" to the mantra of the

aspirant. And ultimately that seeker is told "not to question" the

fact that this mantra has power "as it is given to the seeker" versus

"inner power" wherein the seeker who receives it, via making it up or

hearing it in a dream etc...Then uses it and finds the Self just the

same. Are both possible? and

 

It is this faith without question?

 

Namaste

 

Netemara

 

******

 

PS I am settled in here and will check in when I can. Thanks

 

 

RamanaMaharshi, Miles Wright <ramana.bhakta@v...> wrote:

>

> om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya

> ---------

>

> 8: Can anyone get any benefit by repeating sacred syllables

(mantras)

> picked up casually?

>

> Maharshi: 'No. He must be competent and initiated in such mantras.'

> Maharshi illustrated this by the following story :

>

> A King visited his Premier in his residence. There he was told that

the

> Premier was engaged in repetition of sacred syllables (japa). The

King

> waited for him and, on meeting him, asked what the japa was. The

Premier

> said it was the holiest of all, Gayatri. The King desired to be

initiated by

> the Premier. But the Premier confessed his inability to initiate

him.

> Therefore the King learned it from someone else, and meeting the

Minister

> later he repeated the Gayatri and wanted to know if it was right.

The

> minister said that the mantra was correct, but it was not proper for

him to

> say it. When pressed for an explanation, the Minister called to a

page close

> by and ordered him to take hold of the King. The order was not

obeyed. The

> order was often repeated, and still not obeyed. The King flew into a

rage

> and ordered the same man to hold the Minister, and it was

immediately done.

> The Minister laughed and said that the incident was the explanation

required

> by the King. 'How?' asked the King. The Minister replied, 'The order

was the

> same and the executor also, but the authority was different. When I

ordered,

> the effect was nil, whereas, when you ordered, there was immediate

effect.

> Similarly with mantras.'

[Guest guest]

RamanaMaharshi, Miles Wright <ramana.bhakta@v...> wrote:

>

> om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya

> ---------

> The correctness of assertions is not proven by parables. There's

only one way to demonstrate the benefits of chanting mantras, and

that's to try it out for yourself!. The proof is in the pudding.

Chant the Gayatri mantra for one month, one round per day, and not

the benefits for yourself.....jiva

 

> 8: Can anyone get any benefit by repeating sacred syllables

(mantras)

> picked up casually?

>

> Maharshi: 'No. He must be competent and initiated in such mantras.'

> Maharshi illustrated this by the following story :

>

> A King visited his Premier in his residence. There he was told that

the

> Premier was engaged in repetition of sacred syllables (japa). The

King

> waited for him and, on meeting him, asked what the japa was. The

Premier

> said it was the holiest of all, Gayatri. The King desired to be

initiated by

> the Premier. But the Premier confessed his inability to initiate

him.

> Therefore the King learned it from someone else, and meeting the

Minister

> later he repeated the Gayatri and wanted to know if it was right.

The

> minister said that the mantra was correct, but it was not proper

for him to

> say it. When pressed for an explanation, the Minister called to a

page close

> by and ordered him to take hold of the King. The order was not

obeyed. The

> order was often repeated, and still not obeyed. The King flew into

a rage

> and ordered the same man to hold the Minister, and it was

immediately done.

> The Minister laughed and said that the incident was the explanation

required

> by the King. 'How?' asked the King. The Minister replied, 'The

order was the

> same and the executor also, but the authority was different. When I

ordered,

> the effect was nil, whereas, when you ordered, there was immediate

effect.

> Similarly with mantras.'

[Guest guest]

Net:

 

What are you talking about? What story? Perhaps you're assigning

someone else's discussion to me. I made no comments about this

story.

 

Mark

 

 

Dear Mark,

 

It seems that that cogent little story gets around. I heard it as a

satsang in Sant Mat some years ago. That it makes rounds and no one

is really given credit for the story does not in any way diminish its

Truth. I guess the characters could be changed around infinitely and

the effect would yet be the same.

 

However, I did question this story's relevance to the "outer guru" do

you know what I mean? It presupposes then that someone physically

outside of the aspirant is "giving power" to the mantra of the

aspirant. And ultimately that seeker is told "not to question" the

fact that this mantra has power "as it is given to the seeker" versus

"inner power" wherein the seeker who receives it, via making it up or

hearing it in a dream etc...Then uses it and finds the Self just the

same. Are both possible? and

 

It is this faith without question?

 

Namaste

 

Netemara

 

******

 

PS I am settled in here and will check in when I can. Thanks

 

 

RamanaMaharshi, Miles Wright <ramana.bhakta@v...> wrote:

>

> om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya

> ---------

>

> 8: Can anyone get any benefit by repeating sacred syllables

(mantras)

> picked up casually?

>

> Maharshi: 'No. He must be competent and initiated in such mantras.'

> Maharshi illustrated this by the following story :

>

> A King visited his Premier in his residence. There he was told that

the

> Premier was engaged in repetition of sacred syllables (japa). The

King

> waited for him and, on meeting him, asked what the japa was. The

Premier

> said it was the holiest of all, Gayatri. The King desired to be

initiated by

> the Premier. But the Premier confessed his inability to initiate

him.

> Therefore the King learned it from someone else, and meeting the

Minister

> later he repeated the Gayatri and wanted to know if it was right.

The

> minister said that the mantra was correct, but it was not proper for

him to

> say it. When pressed for an explanation, the Minister called to a

page close

> by and ordered him to take hold of the King. The order was not

obeyed. The

> order was often repeated, and still not obeyed. The King flew into a

rage

> and ordered the same man to hold the Minister, and it was

immediately done.

> The Minister laughed and said that the incident was the explanation

required

> by the King. 'How?' asked the King. The Minister replied, 'The order

was the

> same and the executor also, but the authority was different. When I

ordered,

> the effect was nil, whereas, when you ordered, there was immediate

effect.

> Similarly with mantras.'

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Net:

 

Ok, now that I've read this story I will comment on it from my perspective.

When one begins spiritual practice, it's foolish to consider oneself an

expert. Mantras and other practices can have profound effects that one

shouldn't meddle in unless one is trained and empowered. There are

many stories of people going insane from dabbling with kundalini and other

yogic practices without being properly prepared and trained. If you don't

believe this read the experiences of Gopi Krishna.

Would you try to rewire high voltage lines because you read a book or

two and had a discussion on an internet news group? I don't think so.

So, don't presume you are an expert in matters where you have little

experience or understanding. In ancient times, it took years to be

initiated into even basic practices and this wasn't a power trip on the

part of the masters it was to protect people from the hazards and

dangers of doing things improperly.

One clear example of this in Bhagavan's case is where he advises

someone to inquire into a blissful state he was experiencing. Without

this simple advice this devotee would have wasted years of valuable

time in a sleep state. Only the guru had suffiicient experience to guide

the devotee out of this trap and expecting that he could dig his way out

on his own is nonsense. Yes, there is an inner guru but until one is

intelligent enough and experienced enough to recognize the inner guru

one needs external guidance. There are many, many traps and one of

which is assuming oneself to be an expert in profound matters when

one is only a novice.

 

Mark

 

 

 

Dear Mark,

 

It seems that that cogent little story gets around. I heard it as a

satsang in Sant Mat some years ago. That it makes rounds and no one

is really given credit for the story does not in any way diminish its

Truth. I guess the characters could be changed around infinitely and

the effect would yet be the same.

 

However, I did question this story's relevance to the "outer guru" do

you know what I mean? It presupposes then that someone physically

outside of the aspirant is "giving power" to the mantra of the

aspirant. And ultimately that seeker is told "not to question" the

fact that this mantra has power "as it is given to the seeker" versus

"inner power" wherein the seeker who receives it, via making it up or

hearing it in a dream etc...Then uses it and finds the Self just the

same. Are both possible? and

 

It is this faith without question?

 

Namaste

 

Netemara

 

******

 

PS I am settled in here and will check in when I can. Thanks

 

 

RamanaMaharshi, Miles Wright <ramana.bhakta@v...> wrote:

>

> om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya

> ---------

>

> 8: Can anyone get any benefit by repeating sacred syllables

(mantras)

> picked up casually?

>

> Maharshi: 'No. He must be competent and initiated in such mantras.'

> Maharshi illustrated this by the following story :

>

> A King visited his Premier in his residence. There he was told that

the

> Premier was engaged in repetition of sacred syllables (japa). The

King

> waited for him and, on meeting him, asked what the japa was. The

Premier

> said it was the holiest of all, Gayatri. The King desired to be

initiated by

> the Premier. But the Premier confessed his inability to initiate

him.

> Therefore the King learned it from someone else, and meeting the

Minister

> later he repeated the Gayatri and wanted to know if it was right.

The

> minister said that the mantra was correct, but it was not proper for

him to

> say it. When pressed for an explanation, the Minister called to a

page close

> by and ordered him to take hold of the King. The order was not

obeyed. The

> order was often repeated, and still not obeyed. The King flew into a

rage

> and ordered the same man to hold the Minister, and it was

immediately done.

> The Minister laughed and said that the incident was the explanation

required

> by the King. 'How?' asked the King. The Minister replied, 'The order

was the

> same and the executor also, but the authority was different. When I

ordered,

> the effect was nil, whereas, when you ordered, there was immediate

effect.

> Similarly with mantras.'

 

 

 

Post message: RamanaMaharshi

Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi-

Un: RamanaMaharshi-

List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner

 

Shortcut URL to this page:

/community/RamanaMaharshi

 

 

 

 

Post message: RamanaMaharshi

Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi-

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List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner

 

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[Guest guest]

Mark,

 

thank you for your comment. However, I respectfully disagree, up to a

point. Why? Because I (only my opinion) believe that those who are so

savvy to pick up and use such a mantra are doing it out of past

sanskaras. And we are all novices, until the bitter end really.

 

And yes I have read Gopi's book, many times, and many others and I

still have the same conclusion. In his case, IMO, it was probably his

first life in raising kundalini reason being he lost control so many

times.

 

And I think you are supposing that one considers oneself an expert

because one does not take a teacher. In some cases it may be ignorance

or the principle that this person could not hold back on this karma

to have this experience. It was out of his control to have or not have

this experience. I believe preordained by the incarnating jiva.

 

I don't really think it is a case of arrogance, but ignorance.

 

 

But thank you for your insight.

 

 

Net

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

RamanaMaharshi, "Mark" <milarepa@a...> wrote:

> Net:

>

> Ok, now that I've read this story I will comment on it from my

perspective.

> When one begins spiritual practice, it's foolish to consider oneself

an

> expert. Mantras and other practices can have profound effects that

one

> shouldn't meddle in unless one is trained and empowered. There are

> many stories of people going insane from dabbling with kundalini and

other

> yogic practices without being properly prepared and trained. If you

don't

> believe this read the experiences of Gopi Krishna.

> Would you try to rewire high voltage lines because you read a book

or

> two and had a discussion on an internet news group? I don't think

so.

> So, don't presume you are an expert in matters where you have little

> experience or understanding. In ancient times, it took years to be

> initiated into even basic practices and this wasn't a power trip on

the

> part of the masters it was to protect people from the hazards and

> dangers of doing things improperly.

> One clear example of this in Bhagavan's case is where he advises

> someone to inquire into a blissful state he was experiencing.

Without

> this simple advice this devotee would have wasted years of valuable

> time in a sleep state. Only the guru had suffiicient experience to

guide

> the devotee out of this trap and expecting that he could dig his way

out

> on his own is nonsense. Yes, there is an inner guru but until one

is

> intelligent enough and experienced enough to recognize the inner

guru

> one needs external guidance. There are many, many traps and one of

> which is assuming oneself to be an expert in profound matters when

> one is only a novice.

>

> Mark

>

>

>

> Dear Mark,

>

> It seems that that cogent little story gets around. I heard it as a

> satsang in Sant Mat some years ago. That it makes rounds and no one

> is really given credit for the story does not in any way diminish

its

> Truth. I guess the characters could be changed around infinitely

and

> the effect would yet be the same.

>

> However, I did question this story's relevance to the "outer guru"

do

> you know what I mean? It presupposes then that someone physically

> outside of the aspirant is "giving power" to the mantra of the

> aspirant. And ultimately that seeker is told "not to question" the

> fact that this mantra has power "as it is given to the seeker"

versus

> "inner power" wherein the seeker who receives it, via making it up

or

> hearing it in a dream etc...Then uses it and finds the Self just the

> same. Are both possible? and

>

> It is this faith without question?

>

> Namaste

>

> Netemara

>

> ******

>

> PS I am settled in here and will check in when I can. Thanks

>

>

> RamanaMaharshi, Miles Wright <ramana.bhakta@v...> wrote:

> >

> > om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya

> > ---------

> >

> > 8: Can anyone get any benefit by repeating sacred syllables

> (mantras)

> > picked up casually?

> >

> > Maharshi: 'No. He must be competent and initiated in such

mantras.'

> > Maharshi illustrated this by the following story :

> >

> > A King visited his Premier in his residence. There he was told

that

> the

> > Premier was engaged in repetition of sacred syllables (japa). The

> King

> > waited for him and, on meeting him, asked what the japa was. The

> Premier

> > said it was the holiest of all, Gayatri. The King desired to be

> initiated by

> > the Premier. But the Premier confessed his inability to initiate

> him.

> > Therefore the King learned it from someone else, and meeting the

> Minister

> > later he repeated the Gayatri and wanted to know if it was right.

> The

> > minister said that the mantra was correct, but it was not proper

for

> him to

> > say it. When pressed for an explanation, the Minister called to a

> page close

> > by and ordered him to take hold of the King. The order was not

> obeyed. The

> > order was often repeated, and still not obeyed. The King flew into

a

> rage

> > and ordered the same man to hold the Minister, and it was

> immediately done.

> > The Minister laughed and said that the incident was the

explanation

> required

> > by the King. 'How?' asked the King. The Minister replied, 'The

order

> was the

> > same and the executor also, but the authority was different. When

I

> ordered,

> > the effect was nil, whereas, when you ordered, there was immediate

> effect.

> > Similarly with mantras.'

>

>

>

> Post message: RamanaMaharshi@o...

> Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi-@o...

> Un: RamanaMaharshi-@o...

> List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner@o...

>

> Shortcut URL to this page:

> /community/RamanaMaharshi

>

>

>

> Sponsor

>

>

>

> Post message: RamanaMaharshi@o...

> Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi-@o...

> Un: RamanaMaharshi-@o...

> List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner@o...

>

> Shortcut URL to this page:

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>

>

[Guest guest]

Net:

 

I think you may have misunderstood my comments. I don't believe

Gopi Krishna or anyone like him is ignorant. He experienced the

awakening from a very long-term meditation practice where he

advanced to sitting for 3 hours every morning with an unusual level

of concentration as he narrates. When the Kundalini finally did awaken,

he didn't have an adept available to help him and he nearly died because of it.

I know of two people who experienced extreme emotional difficulties resulting

from their practice of kriya yoga.

 

These situations aren't unique or rare. A old acquaintance of mine, Dr. Lee

Sanella wrote a good book titled "Kundalini, Psychosis or Transcendence"

which talks about all the symptoms many people experience from having

subtle energies awaken from various meditative and yogic practices. Another

good book on the subject is "Spiritual Emergency" by San Grof. Without proper

guidance in practice, there is significant risk involved unless one happens to

be a very, very rare one like Bhagavan who apparently moved into full

enlightenment

in one fell swoop.

 

Anyway the initial issue we were discussing was the idea of the need for

empowerment when taking on spiritual practices and I believe I've given

enough proof that for the vast majority, finding a trained and experienced

teacher is a smart move. Again I'll refer to the experiences of Bhagavan's

devotees who were continually being guided and corrected in their practice.

Very, very few people are savvy enough to judge their past karmas.

 

Mark

[Guest guest]

Net,

 

I would also like to make one short comment: without a teacher, the

seeker has the real risk of having their practice run by the ego.

This will be a limited approach. This is like meditating, only when

you 'feel like it." Won't go far.

 

WE are Not two,

Richard

 

RamanaMaharshi, "Mark" <milarepa@a...> wrote:

> Net:

>

> I think you may have misunderstood my comments. I don't believe

> Gopi Krishna or anyone like him is ignorant. He experienced the

> awakening from a very long-term meditation practice where he

> advanced to sitting for 3 hours every morning with an unusual level

> of concentration as he narrates. When the Kundalini finally did

awaken,

> he didn't have an adept available to help him and he nearly died

because of it.

> I know of two people who experienced extreme emotional difficulties

resulting

> from their practice of kriya yoga.

>

> These situations aren't unique or rare. A old acquaintance of

mine, Dr. Lee

> Sanella wrote a good book titled "Kundalini, Psychosis or

Transcendence"

> which talks about all the symptoms many people experience from

having

> subtle energies awaken from various meditative and yogic

practices. Another

> good book on the subject is "Spiritual Emergency" by San Grof.

Without proper

> guidance in practice, there is significant risk involved unless one

happens to

> be a very, very rare one like Bhagavan who apparently moved into

full enlightenment

> in one fell swoop.

>

> Anyway the initial issue we were discussing was the idea of the

need for

> empowerment when taking on spiritual practices and I believe I've

given

> enough proof that for the vast majority, finding a trained and

experienced

> teacher is a smart move. Again I'll refer to the experiences of

Bhagavan's

> devotees who were continually being guided and corrected in their

practice.

> Very, very few people are savvy enough to judge their past karmas.

>

> Mark

[Guest guest]

Mark,

 

Yes, we are in basic agreement. I have even seen some of my high

school students experience effects or phenomenon related to kundalini

activity because of their proximity to myself. But when I say

ignorant (read the average person) I do mean that. We are not born

knowing what we will experience. But the actual choice of meditating

and seeking is an indication of "knowing" your past karmas IMO.

 

I most certainly do believe in the power of teachers, I am one after

all. Just did not play that up in my comments.

 

Thank you.

 

Net

*******

 

 

-- In RamanaMaharshi, "Mark" <milarepa@a...> wrote:

> Net:

>

> I think you may have misunderstood my comments. I don't believe

> Gopi Krishna or anyone like him is ignorant. He experienced the

> awakening from a very long-term meditation practice where he

> advanced to sitting for 3 hours every morning with an unusual level

> of concentration as he narrates. When the Kundalini finally did

awaken,

> he didn't have an adept available to help him and he nearly died

because of it.

> I know of two people who experienced extreme emotional difficulties

resulting

> from their practice of kriya yoga.

>

> These situations aren't unique or rare. A old acquaintance of mine,

Dr. Lee

> Sanella wrote a good book titled "Kundalini, Psychosis or

Transcendence"

> which talks about all the symptoms many people experience from

having

> subtle energies awaken from various meditative and yogic practices.

Another

> good book on the subject is "Spiritual Emergency" by San Grof.

Without proper

> guidance in practice, there is significant risk involved unless one

happens to

> be a very, very rare one like Bhagavan who apparently moved into

full enlightenment

> in one fell swoop.

>

> Anyway the initial issue we were discussing was the idea of the need

for

> empowerment when taking on spiritual practices and I believe I've

given

> enough proof that for the vast majority, finding a trained and

experienced

> teacher is a smart move. Again I'll refer to the experiences of

Bhagavan's

> devotees who were continually being guided and corrected in their

practice.

> Very, very few people are savvy enough to judge their past karmas.

>

> Mark

[Guest guest]

Good point Richard. I am not in any disagreement about the need for

teachers. I am just always concerned about those who are "out there."

I firmly believe in "leave no seeker behind." Smile.

 

Net

 

********

 

-- In RamanaMaharshi, "richard_clarke95125" <r_clarke@i...>

wrote:

> Net,

>

> I would also like to make one short comment: without a teacher, the

> seeker has the real risk of having their practice run by the ego.

> This will be a limited approach. This is like meditating, only when

> you 'feel like it." Won't go far.

>

> WE are Not two,

> Richard

>

> RamanaMaharshi, "Mark" <milarepa@a...> wrote:

> > Net:

> >

> > I think you may have misunderstood my comments. I don't believe

> > Gopi Krishna or anyone like him is ignorant. He experienced the

> > awakening from a very long-term meditation practice where he

> > advanced to sitting for 3 hours every morning with an unusual

level

> > of concentration as he narrates. When the Kundalini finally did

> awaken,

> > he didn't have an adept available to help him and he nearly died

> because of it.

> > I know of two people who experienced extreme emotional

difficulties

> resulting

> > from their practice of kriya yoga.

> >

> > These situations aren't unique or rare. A old acquaintance of

> mine, Dr. Lee

> > Sanella wrote a good book titled "Kundalini, Psychosis or

> Transcendence"

> > which talks about all the symptoms many people experience from

> having

> > subtle energies awaken from various meditative and yogic

> practices. Another

> > good book on the subject is "Spiritual Emergency" by San Grof.

> Without proper

> > guidance in practice, there is significant risk involved unless

one

> happens to

> > be a very, very rare one like Bhagavan who apparently moved into

> full enlightenment

> > in one fell swoop.

> >

> > Anyway the initial issue we were discussing was the idea of the

> need for

> > empowerment when taking on spiritual practices and I believe I've

> given

> > enough proof that for the vast majority, finding a trained and

> experienced

> > teacher is a smart move. Again I'll refer to the experiences of

> Bhagavan's

> > devotees who were continually being guided and corrected in their

> practice.

> > Very, very few people are savvy enough to judge their past karmas.

> >

> > Mark

[Guest guest]

Net:

 

After witnessing many a guru, lama, Zen master fall during the 1980's after

being accused of various misdeeds, I agree with you completely. There are

wolves among the sheep and one must be very circumspect when

selecting a teacher.

 

Mark

 

 

 

Good point Richard. I am not in any disagreement about the need for

teachers. I am just always concerned about those who are "out there."

I firmly believe in "leave no seeker behind." Smile.

 

Net

 

[Guest guest]

RamanaMaharshi, "Mark" <milarepa@a...> wrote:

> Net:

>

> Ok, now that I've read this story I will comment on it from my

perspective.

> When one begins spiritual practice, it's foolish to consider

oneself an

> expert. Mantras and other practices can have profound effects

that one

> shouldn't meddle in unless one is trained and empowered. There are

> many stories of people going insane from dabbling with kundalini

and other

> yogic practices without being properly prepared and trained. If

you don't

> believe this read the experiences of Gopi Krishna.

> Would you try to rewire high voltage lines because you read a book

or

> two and had a discussion on an internet news group? I don't think

so.

> So, don't presume you are an expert in matters where you have

little

> experience or understanding. In ancient times, it took years to be

> initiated into even basic practices and this wasn't a power trip

on the

> part of the masters it was to protect people from the hazards and

> dangers of doing things improperly.

> One clear example of this in Bhagavan's case is where he advises

> someone to inquire into a blissful state he was experiencing.

Without

> this simple advice this devotee would have wasted years of valuable

> time in a sleep state. Only the guru had suffiicient experience

to guide

> the devotee out of this trap and expecting that he could dig his

way out

> on his own is nonsense. Yes, there is an inner guru but until one

is

> intelligent enough and experienced enough to recognize the inner

guru

> one needs external guidance. There are many, many traps and one of

> which is assuming oneself to be an expert in profound matters when

> one is only a novice.

>

> Mark

>

>

>

> Dear Mark,

>

> It seems that that cogent little story gets around. I heard it as

a

> satsang in Sant Mat some years ago. That it makes rounds and no

one

> is really given credit for the story does not in any way diminish

its

> Truth. I guess the characters could be changed around infinitely

and

> the effect would yet be the same.

>

> However, I did question this story's relevance to the "outer guru"

do

> you know what I mean? It presupposes then that someone physically

> outside of the aspirant is "giving power" to the mantra of the

> aspirant. And ultimately that seeker is told "not to question"

the

> fact that this mantra has power "as it is given to the seeker"

versus

> "inner power" wherein the seeker who receives it, via making it up

or

> hearing it in a dream etc...Then uses it and finds the Self just

the

> same. Are both possible? and

>

> It is this faith without question?

>

> Namaste

>

> Netemara

>

> ******

>

> PS I am settled in here and will check in when I can. Thanks

>

>

> RamanaMaharshi, Miles Wright <ramana.bhakta@v...>

wrote:

> >

> > om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya

> > ---------

> >

> > 8: Can anyone get any benefit by repeating sacred syllables

> (mantras)

> > picked up casually?

> >

> > Maharshi: 'No. He must be competent and initiated in such

mantras.'

> > Maharshi illustrated this by the following story :

> >

> > A King visited his Premier in his residence. There he was told

that

> the

> > Premier was engaged in repetition of sacred syllables (japa).

The

> King

> > waited for him and, on meeting him, asked what the japa was. The

> Premier

> > said it was the holiest of all, Gayatri. The King desired to be

> initiated by

> > the Premier. But the Premier confessed his inability to initiate

> him.

> > Therefore the King learned it from someone else, and meeting the

> Minister

> > later he repeated the Gayatri and wanted to know if it was

right.

> The

> > minister said that the mantra was correct, but it was not proper

for

> him to

> > say it. When pressed for an explanation, the Minister called to

a

> page close

> > by and ordered him to take hold of the King. The order was not

> obeyed. The

> > order was often repeated, and still not obeyed. The King flew

into a

> rage

> > and ordered the same man to hold the Minister, and it was

> immediately done.

> > The Minister laughed and said that the incident was the

explanation

> required

> > by the King. 'How?' asked the King. The Minister replied, 'The

order

> was the

> > same and the executor also, but the authority was different.

When I

> ordered,

> > the effect was nil, whereas, when you ordered, there was

immediate

> effect.

> > Similarly with mantras.'

>

greetings

 

Just would like to share my views.

Mantras by themselves are NOT HARMFUL even if you donot get

initiated by a competent Guru.

If Mantras are used to achieve a selfish motive then they back fire.

If they are used to heal someone indeed or to promote harmony ..they

> work wonders.

Mantra is like a knife...its result depends on what you use it for.

If the sadhak starts reciting Gayathri manthra, with an ulterior

motive of misusing its power..then the sadhak will experience

negative effects like going insane etc.

 

Here the guru's role is to testify the purity of the sadhak's

motives.

If your motives are really sincere then your self itself becomes

your GURU and you can go ahead reciting the manthra which gives you

peace of mind.

heer Bhagavan's words are worth remembering:

 

whatever is done lovingly and with peace of mind is good action.

Everything which is done with the stain of desire and with agitation

filling the mind is bad action. Donot perform any good deed through

bad means , thinking ''its sufficient if it bears good fruit''and

vice versa. Even if the means is good[like manthra in this case] if

the motive is bad it is considered as bad karma and the doer has to

bear its negative consequences.

 

 

 

>

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[Guest guest]

RamanaMaharshi, "viorica weissman" <viorica@z...> wrote:

> > Just would like to share my views.

> > Mantras by themselves are NOT HARMFUL even if you donot get

> > initiated by a competent Guru.

>

I've been chanting mantras for over 25 years with great benefit.

There's nothing like direct experience!!!. The words of authorities

are fine, but the real test comes only with experience. Try chanting

the GAYATRI MANTRA for one month. Just get it off numerous websites

on the subject, and start chanting. I also recommend listening tto

the audio tape by Shreemaa which can be obtained through

http://www.shreemaa.org . I realize that Ramana Maharshi is an

authority on Self-inquiry but Shreemaa is an authority on chanting

mantras. She recommends the practice. Ultimately, one must try

things out for one's self. Don't get sucked into strict blind faith

on anybody's words, including mine. jiva

>

> I would like to share a view also ;

>

> We are coming back in a circle to the initial post :

>

> 8: Can anyone get any benefit by repeating

> sacred syllables (mantras) picked up casually?

>

> Maharshi: 'No. He must be competent and initiated

> in such mantras.'

>

>

>

>

> vicki

[Guest guest]

RamanaMaharshi, "viorica weissman" <viorica@z...> wrote:

> > Just would like to share my views.

> > Mantras by themselves are NOT HARMFUL even if you donot get

> > initiated by a competent Guru.

>

> dear arunaramana,

>

> I would like to share a view also ;

>

> We are coming back in a circle to the initial post :

>

> 8: Can anyone get any benefit by repeating

> sacred syllables (mantras) picked up casually?

>

> Maharshi: 'No. He must be competent and initiated

> in such mantras.'

>

>

>

>

> vicki

dear vicki

I appreciate your faith in Bhagavan's sayings. The question uses the

word''casually'' without mentioning the intention of the person

chanting those manthras. When you come to think of it ''what is a

manthra''...its a thought or a series of thoughts . while you are

repeating them you are keeping the ''other unwanted thoughts''

at bay.

If you repeat them with good intention, you ''feel'' the benefit of

them since your conscience becomes your friend[remember your mind is

your friend or foe depending on what you make out of it]

On the contrary if you repeat them with some ''evil'' motive or

desire ...you ''feel'' uncomfortable since your conscience is guilty.

 

I RESPECT BHAGAVAN AND HE IS THE FATHER FIGURE IN MY LIFE AND I HAVE

NO INTENTION TO WRITE OR SAY ANYTHING CONTRARY TO WHAT HE SAID.

But many a time devotees did come to Him and took his permission to

repeat mantras [such as ram or shirdinathaya namah and the like ]

and he did give his consent to them.I will get back to you later

with proper reference on this point.

 

I've posted the message with a sincere intention of highlighting the

many benefits of repeating the manthra sincerely and with pure heart.

[Guest guest]

RamanaMaharshi, "viorica weissman" <viorica@z...> wrote:

> dear arunaramana,

>

> first of all thank you for your answer.

>

> > > vicki

> > dear vicki

> > I appreciate your faith in Bhagavan's sayings. The question uses

the

> > word''casually'' without mentioning the intention of the person

> > chanting those manthras. When you come to think of it ''what is a

> > manthra''...its a thought or a series of thoughts . while you are

> > repeating them you are keeping the ''other unwanted thoughts''

> > at bay.

> > If you repeat them with good intention, you ''feel'' the benefit

of

> > them since your conscience becomes your friend[remember your

mind is

> > your friend or foe depending on what you make out of it]

> > On the contrary if you repeat them with some ''evil'' motive or

> > desire ...you ''feel'' uncomfortable since your conscience is

guilty.

>

>

> What you say it seems only correct and I share the same opinion

> so far.

>

> > I RESPECT BHAGAVAN AND HE IS THE FATHER FIGURE IN MY LIFE AND I

HAVE

> > NO INTENTION TO WRITE OR SAY ANYTHING CONTRARY TO WHAT HE SAID.

> > But many a time devotees did come to Him and took his permission

to

> > repeat mantras [such as ram or shirdinathaya namah and the like ]

> > and he did give his consent to them.I will get back to you later

> > with proper reference on this point.

>

>

> As it is quite known , he always tried to give the push to

the

> highest ,

> to the 'who is repeating the mantra', but when it didn't

work and

> the devotee couldn't part from his particular practice ,

then only

> Ramana gave his consent that what the devotee was doing was

the

> right thing to do.

>

> > I've posted the message with a sincere intention of highlighting

the

> > many benefits of repeating the manthra sincerely and with pure

heart.

> >

>

> I believe you , and sincere intentions are always to be

appreciated ,

>

> vicki

 

dear vicky

Thanks

 

now i got your point.

thanks for the clarification.

[Guest guest]

RamanaMaharshi, "purushaz" <purushaz> wrote:

> RamanaMaharshi, "viorica weissman" <viorica@z...> wrote:

> > > Just would like to share my views.

> > > Mantras by themselves are NOT HARMFUL even if you donot get

> > > initiated by a competent Guru.

> >

> I've been chanting mantras for over 25 years with great benefit.

> There's nothing like direct experience!!!. The words of authorities

> are fine, but the real test comes only with experience. Try

chanting

> the GAYATRI MANTRA for one month. Just get it off numerous websites

> on the subject, and start chanting. I also recommend listening tto

> the audio tape by Shreemaa which can be obtained through

> http://www.shreemaa.org . I realize that Ramana Maharshi is an

> authority on Self-inquiry but Shreemaa is an authority on chanting

> mantras. She recommends the practice. Ultimately, one must try

> things out for one's self. Don't get sucked into strict blind faith

> on anybody's words, including mine. jiva

> >

 

*****************

Purushaz,

 

You enforced the point I was trying to make, but did not want to make

it with any authority. I don't want to thank you because I know you

were not doing it for me directly. But that is all I was trying to

say: is a mantra any less a mantra when given by any other lesser

authority figure than oneself?

 

I know what Ramana people would say, but again it is experience and

the real power on this comes from within.

 

Net

*******

 

> > I would like to share a view also ;

> >

> > We are coming back in a circle to the initial post :

> >

> > 8: Can anyone get any benefit by repeating

> > sacred syllables (mantras) picked up casually?

> >

> > Maharshi: 'No. He must be competent and initiated

> > in such mantras.'

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > vicki

[Guest guest]

Lalitha,

 

I like your comment. I would add to it my first experience with

mantras. After I was taught by a group of vegetarians (1971) how to

be a proper vegan and really taught well, one of the brothers in the

group gave me my first mantra. He told me to memorize and to repeat

the 23rd Psalm (I shall walk in the valley.....) and so I did. I

don't know how long I kept to this practice. He probably told me it

was an mantra, but I was really too green to know what it was about or

question whether or not it was "harmful." As for the question of

picking up a mantra and using it casually that is essentially what I

did. We were not in a formal situation and he was not a professional

guru.

 

But he was sincere, older, wise and really a guru to many, and I was

sincere. And as you write there was no harm in it and it was probably

the thing which reinforced my power to maintain the diet. I have been

a vegetarian since (the breaks have been deliberate and short).

 

So, IMO the best of the best gurus are also and always models to

others. I have been studying physics modeling here at Notre Dame, and

that is the way that people learn best. When they are in effect not

trying to fight the inflow of knowledge which leads to wisdom. They

are being coached, for lack of a better word, into right practices.

 

They are also allowed 'TO MAKE MISTAKES.' IN fact the process is what

is encouraged. If the right process and right practices are followed

then the mistakes are lessened in effect, automatically almost.

 

Net

 

Namaste

 

*********

 

 

RamanaMaharshi, "lalithamachiraju" <arunaramana@h...>

wrote:

> RamanaMaharshi, "viorica weissman" <viorica@z...> wrote:

> > > Just would like to share my views.

> > > Mantras by themselves are NOT HARMFUL even if you donot get

> > > initiated by a competent Guru.

> >

> > dear arunaramana,

> >

> > I would like to share a view also ;

> >

> > We are coming back in a circle to the initial post :

> >

> > 8: Can anyone get any benefit by repeating

> > sacred syllables (mantras) picked up casually?

> >

> > Maharshi: 'No. He must be competent and initiated

> > in such mantras.'

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > vicki

> dear vicki

> I appreciate your faith in Bhagavan's sayings. The question uses the

> word''casually'' without mentioning the intention of the person

> chanting those manthras. When you come to think of it ''what is a

> manthra''...its a thought or a series of thoughts . while you are

> repeating them you are keeping the ''other unwanted thoughts''

> at bay.

> If you repeat them with good intention, you ''feel'' the benefit of

> them since your conscience becomes your friend[remember your mind is

> your friend or foe depending on what you make out of it]

> On the contrary if you repeat them with some ''evil'' motive or

> desire ...you ''feel'' uncomfortable since your conscience is

guilty.

>

> I RESPECT BHAGAVAN AND HE IS THE FATHER FIGURE IN MY LIFE AND I HAVE

> NO INTENTION TO WRITE OR SAY ANYTHING CONTRARY TO WHAT HE SAID.

> But many a time devotees did come to Him and took his permission to

> repeat mantras [such as ram or shirdinathaya namah and the like ]

> and he did give his consent to them.I will get back to you later

> with proper reference on this point.

>

> I've posted the message with a sincere intention of highlighting the

> many benefits of repeating the manthra sincerely and with pure

heart.