Awareness/God?

June 16, 2002

om namo Bhagavate sri ramanaya

Dear Sri Chris,

I have reproduced below a Jan 24 posting by Sri Miles,

which describes the meaning of verse no 23 from

Upadesa saram (composed by Bhagavan in sanskrit) and

the corresponding verse no 23 from upadesa undiyar

(composed by Bhagavan in tamil, earlier). It confirms

what you have said.

--- cromanyak <cromanyak wrote:

> Awareness seem to me to be god. It never changes, no

> matter ho far away your mind drifts its allways

> there welcoming you back. Could it be that awareness

> is the sun, and the mind is the moon, just

> borrowing its light from the sun? Awareness doesn't

> miss even the deepest occurences, so that's why I'm

> thinking it is the gorunds of being. What do you all

> thnk?

>

> with metta,

>

> Chris

=============

23a Upadesa saram

sattvabhAsikAcit kvavetarA /

sattayAhicit cittayAhyaham //

How is it possible that another consciousness is

illuminating Existence? (Not possible) because

consciousness comes through Existence (Self) alone,

and the 'I' comes through consciousness alone.

---------

23b Upadesa undiyar

uLLa duNara uNarvuvE r^inmayi

nuLLa duNarvAgu mun*dIpar^a

uNarvEnA mAyuLa mun*dIpar^a

To be aware of 'What Is' there is no awareness

different(from what Is). What 'Is' is 'Awareness'. We

are that 'Awareness'.

=========

om guave namah

suri

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June 16, 2002

dear Chris. this is a beautiful thought; reflection of sun, or the moon ref=

lecting the sun, or god.

Gabriele quoting Ramana is also an analog for me: as the moon yields one of=

the "markers' of meditation, (or states of samadhi). Mediation is mapped an=

d has it "markers" and these are the same in all traditions. "Markers" (ligh=

ts, visions and sounds) are corresponding to one's spiritual devolvement, th=

ere are high states which have no words tho, eg. zen monks have gestures for=

them. (like to add, that a state of deep meditation HAVE NO SUBJECT as mess=

#3580-vichara is samadhi erroneously states, there are many meditation metho=

ds I couldn't make out the Url where is that info from)

The inner-vision of the moon (Ramana knows) at third-eye is just before the=

light of the sun and following that the light of million suns (enlightenmen=

t) appears.

~all love Karta~

explaining the markers of inner-planes

http://santmat-meditation.net/santmat/shabd-1.html

RamanaMaharshi, "gabriele_ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote:

> Observing the moon before the rising sun, Sri Bhagavan remarked:

>

> "See the moon and also the cloud in the sky.

> There is no difference in their brilliance.

> The moon looks only like a speck of cloud.

> The jnani's mind is like this moon before sunlight.

> It is there but not shining of itself."

>

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi, Talk 460

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>

> -- In RamanaMaharshi, "cromanyak" <cromanyak> wrote:

> > Awareness seem to me to be god. It never changes, no matter ho far

> > away your mind drifts its allways there welcoming you back. Could

> it

> > be that awareness is the sun, and the mind is the moon, just

> > borrowing its light form the sun? Awareness doesn't miss even the

> > deepest occurences, so that's why I'm thinking it is the gorunds of

> > being. What do you all thnk?

> >

> > with metta,

> >

> > Chris

June 16, 2002

Hi Karta:

Your explanation is one of a yogic approach. Bhagavan taught the Amrita Nadi

that extends from the heart on the right to the Sahasrar. Enlightenment, as

Bhagavan

taught relates to the Amrita Nadi and not the third eye. You are describing the

yogic idea of enlightenment and not Bhagavan's.

If you had the opportunity to ask him personally, I'm sure he would ask you to

inquire

into who was seeing the thousand suns.

Bhagavan's teaching is prior to experience, sensation and ALL objects of

attention

mundane or apparently divine. As long as there is someone witnessing phenomena,

enlightenment isn't complete.

Mark

The inner-vision of the moon (Ramana knows) at third-eye is just before the=

light of the sun and following that the light of million suns (enlightenmen=

t) appears.

~all love Karta~

explaining the markers of inner-planes

http://santmat-meditation.net/santmat/shabd-1.html

--- In

June 16, 2002

yes Mark, you are right, but my

understanding of the Amritnadi is;

that first one has reach

"enlghtenment" as everybody else does

and IMHO there is no other route: at

the third-eye and the seventh-chakra

from where the Jivanadi leads back to

the HEART.

om namo RAMANA

portion of my first post #3520:

Around nine month ago around 9/11 I got

on line that is when I had kundalini

quickening accompanied with pain inside

my spine with excruciating force around

my neck and heart, and confusion about

what happened to me.

The answer was under my nose since I'm practicing yoga a long long time, among

them Kundalini in the eighties, but it

was hidden from me; sounds familiar?

--as it is the case most of the time. I'm trained in Sant Mat have a SatGuru,

but I didn't turn to any of the "dear ones", I know their answer is just keep on

meditating, keep simran, stay at third-eye, but non of these were possible for

me.

What I found is the jivanadi aka AMRITNADI, Ramana, my HEART and I hope

I'll be able to live there.

~all love Karta~

RamanaMaharshi, "Mark" <milarepa@a...> wrote:

> Hi Karta:

>

> Your explanation is one of a yogic approach. Bhagavan taught the Amrita Nadi

> that extends from the heart on the right to the Sahasrar. Enlightenment, as

> Bhagavan

> taught relates to the Amrita Nadi and not the third eye. You are describing

the

> yogic idea of enlightenment and not Bhagavan's.

> If you had the opportunity to ask him personally, I'm sure he would ask you to

> inquire

> into who was seeing the thousand suns.

> Bhagavan's teaching is prior to experience, sensation and ALL objects of

attention

> mundane or apparently divine. As long as there is someone witnessing

phenomena,

> enlightenment isn't complete.

>

> Mark

>

> The inner-vision of the moon (Ramana knows) at third-eye is just before the=

> light of the sun and following that the light of million suns (enlightenmen=

> t) appears.

>

> ~all love Karta~

>

> explaining the markers of inner-planes

> http://santmat-meditation.net/santmat/shabd-1.html

>

> --- In

>

June 16, 2002

No so. There is no reference to the chakras in Advaita. Chakras

only are mentioned in tantras and yogic practice. Once again I

have to say that all these experiences happen to a "someone" that

doesn't exist in the first place. I believe a good source for understanding

enlightment without the yogic tour of the spine is found in the Zen tradition

which I've discovered to be very similar to Bhagavan's teaching.

You are still insisting on laying your yoga template on Bhagavan's teaching

and it doesn't fit. It is your teaching and opinion not his.

The only references I've read in Bhagavan's teaching that are even

similar are his references to the Sahasrar but he didn't teach people

to aspire to it. He taught insight into it.

The chakras are yoga, not Advaita. "Everybody else" doesn't get "enlightenment

as everyone else does." You don't understand Advaita so please don't

tell people what they have to do. You are misrepresenting Bhagavan's

teaching.

Also, the hear on the right is the source of the causal being and it isn't

the HEART and has nothing to do with the heart chakra.

Mark

yes Mark, you are right, but my

understanding of the Amritnadi is;

that first one has reach

"enlghtenment" as everybody else does

and IMHO there is no other route: at

the third-eye and the seventh-chakra

from where the Jivanadi leads back to

the HEART.

om namo RAMANA

June 16, 2002

RamanaMaharshi, "Mark" <milarepa@a...> wrote:

> No so. There is no reference to the chakras in Advaita. Chakras

> only are mentioned in tantras and yogic practice. Once again I

> have to say that all these experiences happen to a "someone" that

> doesn't exist in the first place. I believe a good source for

understanding

> enlightment without the yogic tour of the spine is found in the Zen

tradition

> which I've discovered to be very similar to Bhagavan's teaching.

> You are still insisting on laying your yoga template on Bhagavan's

teaching

> and it doesn't fit. It is your teaching and opinion not his.

> The only references I've read in Bhagavan's teaching that are even

> similar are his references to the Sahasrar but he didn't teach

people

> to aspire to it. He taught insight into it.

>

> The chakras are yoga, not Advaita. "Everybody else" doesn't

get "enlightenment

> as everyone else does." You don't understand Advaita so please

don't

> tell people what they have to do. You are misrepresenting

Bhagavan's

> teaching.

>

> Also, the hear on the right is the source of the causal being and

it isn't

> the HEART and has nothing to do with the heart chakra.

>

> Mark

Mark, do you know this from experience?

Chris

>

> yes Mark, you are right, but my

> understanding of the Amritnadi is;

> that first one has reach

> "enlghtenment" as everybody else does

> and IMHO there is no other route: at

> the third-eye and the seventh-chakra

> from where the Jivanadi leads back to

> the HEART.

>

> om namo RAMANA

>

June 16, 2002

RamanaMaharshi, "viorica weissman" <viorica@z...> wrote:

> dear Karta,

> it is interesting that you say you are new to Ramana and keep

contradicting

> so old devotees who practice and live his teaching.

> If it is something erroneous here , it is your insistance on the

chakras and

> the third eye

> in the context of the teachings of Ramana Maharshi ;

> why don't you give yourself some time to know what Ramana's

teaching is

> about

> before going on in contradiction with members who know the teaching

> and practice it?

>

> vicki

I remenber reading Ramana say to a question that the third eye and

the crown chakra was a good place for a person to concentrate if that

sort of thing was still necessary. I believe I'm one of the medioce

devotees, who's not ripe enough for inquiry yet. Do any of you know

which meditation techniques Ramana gave to disciples at this stage in

their development? He also said that pranayama was a good one to

pracice for the mediocre to still their mind. Can anyone reccomend a

good teacher, or book to learn from?

>

> (like to add, that a state of deep meditation HAVE NO SUBJECT as

mess=

> #3580-vichara is samadhi erroneously states, there are many

meditation

> metho=

> ds I couldn't make out the Url where is that info from)

>

> ~all love Karta~

June 16, 2002

dear Mark, please let me learn more

about Ramana's teachings; I do feel

close to Him, Ramana's grace gave me

an awarness a great giftt, but

I have no idea how I got here.

I didn't read any of the non-dualist literature yet, so I don't understand

this negation of self.

The Sant Mat tradition never speaks of,

or uses consciously the chakras either.

I think this subject came up by

mentioning the Amritnadi.

There are neurological markers of

altered states, but all lyes in the interpretation attitude and in the

state achieved on the end.

~ with love Karta~

RamanaMaharshi, "Mark" <milarepa@a...> wrote:

> No so. There is no reference to the chakras in Advaita. Chakras

> only are mentioned in tantras and yogic practice. Once again I

> have to say that all these experiences happen to a "someone" that

> doesn't exist in the first place. I believe a good source for understanding

> enlightment without the yogic tour of the spine is found in the Zen tradition

> which I've discovered to be very similar to Bhagavan's teaching.

> You are still insisting on laying your yoga template on Bhagavan's teaching

> and it doesn't fit. It is your teaching and opinion not his.

> The only references I've read in Bhagavan's teaching that are even

> similar are his references to the Sahasrar but he didn't teach people

> to aspire to it. He taught insight into it.

>

> The chakras are yoga, not Advaita. "Everybody else" doesn't get "enlightenment

> as everyone else does." You don't understand Advaita so please don't

> tell people what they have to do. You are misrepresenting Bhagavan's

> teaching.

>

> Also, the hear on the right is the source of the causal being and it isn't

> the HEART and has nothing to do with the heart chakra.

>

> Mark

>

> yes Mark, you are right, but my

> understanding of the Amritnadi is;

> that first one has reach

> "enlghtenment" as everybody else does

> and IMHO there is no other route: at

> the third-eye and the seventh-chakra

> from where the Jivanadi leads back to

> the HEART.

>

> om namo RAMANA

>

June 17, 2002

Karta:

That would be an excellent idea. There are many good books on Bhagavan's

teaching that would better sources than I am. My favorite is "Talks with Ramana

Maharshi" which is about as complete as any text. I'd also recommend "Who am

I?"

and "Letters From Ramanashram." These would give you a better introduction.

Once again, you are supposing that there are common neurological markers and

these

relate to yoga, not Advaita. Bhagavan's realization has nothing to do with the

ajna

chakra

and, in fact, nothing to do with the body-mind ultimately. Identification with

the

body-mind

is an illusion that can be transcended through practice that has nothing to do

with

yoga.

Bhagavan's first entry into realization came when he was a teenage boy and went

through

a kind of death crisis. We aren't talking about ascent here but the penetrating

of

illusions.