Vivartavada

[Guest guest]

Ref. Message: 8

Thu, 2 Feb 2006 17:34:13 +0530

bhaskar.yr

Re: Brahman, the Material Cause

 

 

Thus the position of the Vedanta as regards the material causehood of

Brahman is the Vivartavaada.

 

praNAms Sri SubramaNiyan prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

Kindly give me the shankara bhAshya reference for this *brahma

vivartavAda*....also kindly let me know what is the difference

between

kArikA's mAyA satkArya vAda & brahma vivartavAda...

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

 

Reply:

Namaste Bhaskarji:

Here are two references in Shankara Bhashya which have been shown as depicting

the vivartavaada:

1. In the Aarambhanaadhikarana first sutra: Tadananyatvam...2.1.6.14 the

bhashya vakyam is: Tasmaad yathaa ghatakarakaadyaakaashaanaam

mahakaasha-ananyatvam, yathaa cha mrgatrshnikodakaadiinaam uusharaadibhyo

ananyatvam drshtanashtasvarupena anupaakhyatvaat, evamasya

bhogya-bhoktraadi-prapancha-jaatasya brahmavyatirekena abhaava iti drashtavyam.

 

Meaning: As the space within pots or jars are non-different from the cosmic

space, or as water in a mirage is non-different from the (sandy) desert - since

they sometimes appear and sometimes vanish away, even so it is to be understood

that this diverse phenomenal world of experiences, things experienced, and so

on, has no existence apart from Brahman.

 

At the beginning of this adhikaranam, the Ratnaprabha points out: ..with

respect to the earlier purvapaksha alone, the mukhyam samaadhaanam, the main

reply, is provided by resorting to the vivartavaada...

 

2. In the Chandogya bhashya 6.2.3 for the mantra: Tadaikshata... the Acharya

says:

bahu syaam....yathaa mrd ghataadyaakaarena, yathaa vaa rajjvaadi

sarpaadyaakaarena buddhiparikalpitena.

Meaning: I shall become many...just like mud taking the form of pot, etc. or

just like rope, etc. are imagined to be snake, etc ...

 

The Anandagiri for this portion points out: parinaama-vivartavaadau aasritya

udaaharana-dvayam: the two examples provided in the bhashyam are based upon the

parinaamavaada and the vivartavaada respectively.

 

On the basis of this sample, one may view the various other places where the

Acharya uses such examples as denoting the vivarta-vada.

 

It may be noted that the Bhashyam nowhere uses the word vivarta/vivartavaada.

I learnt that the usage first appears in the Vivarana texts. In case one is not

confortable with the vyaakhyaanams, the loss definitely is not of the

vyaakhyaataas or the Bhashyakara; it is only of the one who rejects the glosses.

 

Regarding the other question of yours, i think the explanation provided by

Sadanandaji appearing in the first portion in the Prof.V.Krishnamurti's just

provided link to the 2001 discussion should give you the clarification.

 

With pranams

subbu

 

 

 

 

 

Brings words and photos together (easily) with

PhotoMail - it's free and works with Mail.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Subrahmanian-ji,

 

advaitin, V Subrahmanian <subrahmanian_v

wrote:

> It may be noted that the Bhashyam nowhere uses the

> word vivarta/vivartavaada. I learnt that the usage

> first appears in the Vivarana texts.

 

I would be grateful if you (or someone here) can tell me the exact

Sanskrit word that Sri Shankaracharya uses for the word translated

as 'evolved' in the following bhashya:

 

"The condition in which name and form become evolved is different

from the condition in which name and form is not so evolved. Hence

although the effect exists as non-different from the cause before

creation, still from the standpoint of this difference in conditions

the effect is declared to be non-existent before creation."

(BS.II.1.17)

 

 

Warm regards,

Chittaranjan

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Chittaranjan Naik"

<chittaranjan_naik wrote:

>

>

> I would be grateful if you (or someone here) can tell me the exact

> Sanskrit word that Sri Shankaracharya uses for the word translated

> as 'evolved' in the following bhashya:

>

> "The condition in which name and form become evolved is different

> from the condition in which name and form is not so evolved. Hence

> although the effect exists as non-different from the cause before

> creation, still from the standpoint of this difference in conditions

> the effect is declared to be non-existent before creation."

> (BS.II.1.17)

 

------\

-----

 

Please use the RTF option (NOT Plain Text) to see the diacritics

properly. Thanks.

 

If not, proceed to the link directly.

 

 

 

http://www.sankara.iitk.ac.in/aus.htm

 

 

 

asadvyapad®¿¡nn®ti c®nna dharm¡ntar®¸a

v¡kya¿®À¡t..2.1.17..

 

 

...2.1.17..

 

nanu kvacidasattvamapi pr¡gutpatt®Å k¡ryasya vyapadi¿ati

¿rutiÅ -- 'asad®v®damagra ¡s¢t' iti, 'asadv¡

idamagra ¡s¢t' iti ca; tasm¡dasadvyapad®¿¡nna

pr¡gutpatt®Å k¡ryasya sattvamiti c®t -- n®ti

br£maÅ; na hyayamatyant¡sattv¡bhipr¡y®¸a

pr¡gutpatt®Å k¡ryasy¡sadvyapad®¿aÅ; kiÆ tarhi,

 

vy¡k¤tan¡mar£patv¡ddharm¡davy¡k¤tan¡mar£pa\

tvaÆ dharm¡ntaram, t®na

dharm¡ntar®¸¡yamasadvyapad®¿aÅ pr¡gutpatt®Å sata

®va k¡ryasya k¡ra¸ar£p®¸¡nanyasya;

katham®tadavagamyat®? v¡kya¿®À¡t. yadupakram®

saÆdigdh¡rthaÆ v¡kyaÆ tacch®À¡nni¿c¢yat®; iha

ca t¡vat 'asad®v®damagra ¡s¢t'

ityasacchabd®n°pakram® nirdiÀ¶aÆ yat, tad®va

punastacchabd®na par¡m¤¿ya, saditi vi¿inaÀ¶i --

'tatsad¡s¢t' iti -- asata¿ca

p£rv¡parak¡l¡saÆbandh¡t

¡s¢cchabd¡nupapatt®¿ca; 'asadv¡ idamagra ¡s¢t'

ityatr¡pi 'tad¡tm¡naÆ svayamakuruta' iti v¡kya¿®À®

vi¿®Àa¸¡nn¡tyant¡sattvam;

tasm¡ddharm¡ntar®¸aiv¡yamasadvyapad®¿aÅ

pr¡gutpatt®Å k¡ryasya; n¡mar£pavy¡k¤taÆ hi vastu

sacchabd¡rhaÆ l°k® prasiddham; ataÅ

pra´an¡mar£pavy¡kara¸¡dasadiv¡s¢dityupacaryat®..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/bs_2/bs_2-1-06.html

 

 

 

Asadvyapadesanneti chet na dharmantarena

vakyaseshat II.1.17 (151)

If it be said that on account of (the effect) being described as

that which is not, (the effect does) not (exist before creation), we

reply 'not so', because the term 'that which is not' denotes another

characteristic or attribute (as is seen) from the latter part of the

text.

 

Asadvyapadesat: on account of its being described as

non-existent; Na: not; Iti chet: if it be said; Na: no; Dharmantarena:

by another attribute or characteristic; Vakyaseshat: from the latter

part of the text or passage, because of the complementary passage.

 

The argument that the world had no existence before creation is

refuted.

 

From the word 'Asat', literally meaning non-existence, in the

Sruti, it may be argued that before creation the world had no existence.

But that argument cannot stand as the latter part of the same text uses

epithets other than "non-existent" to describe the condition of the

world before creation. We understand from this that the world was

existent before creation. This is established by reasoning also because

something cannot come out of nothing and also by clear statements on

other texts of Sruti. "Asad va idam agra asit" - Asat was this verily in

the beginning (Tait. Up. II-7-1).

 

"Asat eva agre asit" - This universe was at first but

non-existent. Asat indeed was this in the beginning. From it verily

proceeded the Sat (Chh. Up. III.19.1). The latter part of the passage is

"Tatsadasit" (That was existent). The word 'non-existent' (asat) does

not certainly mean absolute non-existence, but that the universe did not

exist in a gross, differentiated state. It existed in an extremely

subtle unmanifested state. It was not differentiated. It had not yet

developed name and form. The world was projected. Then it became gross,

and developed name and form. You can get the meaning if you go through

the latter part of the passage 'It became existent.' "It grew."

 

It is absurd to say that non-existence (Asat) existed. Therefore,

Sat means manifest, i.e. having name and form, whereas Asat simply means

fine, subtle and unmanifested. 'Asat' refers to another attribute of the

effect, namely non-manifestation. The words Sat and Asat refer to two

attributes of one and the same object, namely to its gross or manifested

condition and subtle or unmanifested condition.

 

Asad va idamagra asit. Tato vai sadajayata. Tadatmanam

svayamkuruta. Tasmat tatsukritamuchyata ita. Yadvai tatsukritam. Asat

indeed was this in the beginning. From it verily proceeded the Sat. That

made itself its Self. Therefore, it is said to be self-made.

 

The words "Asat made itself its Self" clears up any doubt as to

the real meaning of the word "that". If the word "Asat" meant absolute

non-existence, then there will be a contradiction in terms, because

non-existence can never make itself the Self of anything. The word

"Asit" or "was" becomes absurd when applied to "Asat" because absolute

non-existence can never be said to exist and 'was' means 'existed'. An

absolute non-existence can have no relation with time past or present.

Further, it cannot have any agency also as we find in the passage, "It

made itself its Self." Hence the word 'Asat' should be explained as a

subtle state of an object.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste to all Advaitins,

 

 

advaitin, "advaitins" <advaitins wrote:

> It is absurd to say that non-existence (Asat) existed.

> Therefore, Sat means manifest, i.e. having name and form,

> whereas Asat simply means fine, subtle and unmanifested.

> 'Asat' refers to another attribute of the effect, namely

> non-manifestation. The words Sat and Asat refer to two

> attributes of one and the same object, namely to its

> gross or manifested condition and subtle or unmanifested

> condition.

>

> The words "Asat made itself its Self" clears up any

> doubt as to the real meaning of the word "that". If the

> word "Asat" meant absolute non-existence, then there

> will be a contradiction in terms, because non-existence

> can never make itself the Self of anything. The word

> "Asit" or "was" becomes absurd when applied to "Asat"

> because absolute non-existence can never be said to

> exist and 'was' means 'existed'. An absolute non-existence

> can have no relation with time past or present. Further,

> it cannot have any agency also as we find in the passage,

> "It made itself its Self." Hence the word 'Asat' should

> be explained as a subtle state of an object.

 

 

This is a beautiful explanation of vivartavada (irrespective of

whether the word 'vivarta' has been used by the Acharya or not).

 

In his Mahabhashya on Panini's Astadhyayi, Patanjali explains the

following Rg Veda verse:

 

"There are others who though perceiving cannot see speech; others

again though listening cannot hear it. There are others again to whom

she reveals herself as a well-dressed wife desiring her husband would

do." (Rg Veda. 10.71.4)

 

And Patanjali comments on it as follows:

 

"'And others'. There is again some one who though perceiving cannot

see speech and there is again some one who though auditive cannot

hear her. This half-rk-verse speaks about the ignorant."

 

"'Again to him reveal herself'. Reveals the body. 'Like a wife well-

dressed desiring her husband' i.e., just as the wife well-dressed and

desiring the husband reveals her own body, so to one who knows speech

(she i.e., speech) reveals her own self. Grammar should be studied so

that the speech may reveal herself to us."

 

Commenting on this, the commentator Nagesa says:

 

"All the four kinds of words such as nouns, verbs, etc., have four

stages - the para, pasyanti, madhyama, and vaikhari. Of these the

para represents the Brahman stage of words. The pasyanti is that

stage of words in which it is in the form of incipient ideation, and

therefore has not the capacity of being used as language. The

madhyama is the stage wherein the effort of constructive word-

formation is being noticed in the heart and vaikhari is that when it

attains the audible stage. Of the four classes of words, each one has

these four stages. Of these the first three remain in the darkness of

ignorance for the ordinary man. The grammarians, however, by virtue

of their wisdom of the shastras can break open the darkness of

ignorance and know the word in all its stages. The ordinary man

merely speaks. He does not know the mystery of speech or its origins.

Grammar is therefore to be studied for attaining such wisdom as has

been specified above. The para stage of speech has been declared by

Bhartrahari as being like internal eternal Light and by its true

intuition a man attains salvation."

 

 

In the books of Grammar, the phenomenon of the four-fold staging of

speech is known as vivarta. Bhartrhari's Vakhyapadiyam begins with

the following two verses:

 

anadinidhanam brahma sabdatattvam yadaksaram

vivartate rthabhavena prakriya jagato yatah

 

That Brahman, beginningless, deathless, imperishable, and sabatattva,

through vivarta, the unfoldment, rthabhavena, of the meaning existent

(in Brahman), brings forth the world into manifestation.

 

ekameva yadamnatam bhinnam saktivyapasrayat

aprthaktvepi saktibhyah prthaktveneva vartate

 

Although One, and described in the Vedas to be in so many forms due

to It being the basis of different powers, and although not

different, is seen as different due to the powers inherent in Itself.

 

 

Quotes from:

 

1. 'The Mahabhashya of Patanjali',

translated by Surendranath Dasgupta

Edited by Sibajan Bhattacharya

Published by the Indian Council of Philosophical Research

 

2. 'The Vakhiyapadiyam of Bhartrahari, Brahmakanda'

translated by K Subrahmanyam

Published by Sri Satguru Publications

 

 

Warm regards,

Chittaranjan

[Guest guest]

advaitin, V Subrahmanian <subrahmanian_v

wrote:

>

>> Brahman is the Vivartavaada.

>

> praNAms Sri SubramaNiyan prabhuji

> Hare Krishna

>

> Kindly give me the shankara bhAshya reference for this *brahma

> vivartavAda*....also kindly let me know what is the difference

> between

> kArikA's mAyA satkArya vAda & brahma vivartavAda...

>

> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

> bhaskar

>

> Reply:

> Namaste Bhaskarji:

> Here are two references in Shankara Bhashya which have been

shown as depicting the vivartavaada:

> 1. In the Aarambhanaadhikarana first sutra:

Tadananyatvam...2.1.6.14 the bhashya vakyam is: Tasmaad yathaa

ghatakarakaadyaakaashaanaam mahakaasha-ananyatvam, yathaa cha

mrgatrshnikodakaadiinaam uusharaadibhyo ananyatvam

drshtanashtasvarupena anupaakhyatvaat, evamasya bhogya-bhoktraadi-

prapancha-jaatasya brahmavyatirekena abhaava iti drashtavyam.

>

> Meaning: As the space within pots or jars are non-different from

the cosmic space, or as water in a mirage is non-different from the

(sandy) desert - since they sometimes appear and sometimes vanish

away, even so it is to be understood that this diverse phenomenal

world of experiences, things experienced, and so on, has no

existence apart from Brahman.

 

Namaste V-Ji et al,

 

Vivarta, as per Monnier Williams Dictionary, means:

(in Veda7nta) error , illusion , an apparent or illusory form ,

unreality (caused by A-vidya1 "' , ignorance "' , and removed by

Vidya1 , `" true knowledge ) Veda7ntas.

 

Other meanings for the word, as per the same source, are:

 

changing from one state to another , modification , alteration ,

transformation , altered form or condition Ka1v. Katha1s

 

{-vAda} m. a method of asserting the Vedanta doctrine (maintaining

the development of the Universe from Brahma as the sole real

entity , the phenomenal world being held to be a mere illusion or

Ma1ya1 ; cf. %{pariNAma-vAdA})

 

In my way of thinking Vivarta is an illusion, that is only evident

in delusion.

 

There is no time so everything seemingly happens at once so nothing

is unfolding or being projected.

 

In deep sleep or sushupti the world disappears, except for a thought

of existence in the jiva.

 

The Sages say when one becomes realised the world becomes then an

appearance on the Self/Saguna.

 

However when the body drops there is no appearance, no reason for

Saguna only Nirguna. This is why I said that Sankara taught

Ajitavada....................ONS...Tony.

[Guest guest]

Namaste

 

The words in reference are *vyAkRta* (evolved, differentiated) and

*avyAkRta* (not evolved, un differentiated).

 

The quoted passage in Sanskrit is:

 

vyAkRta-nAma-rUpatvAt dharmAt avyAkRta-nAma-rUpatvaM dharmAntaraM tena

dharmAnatareNa ayaM asad-vyapadeshaH prAgutpatteH sata eva kAryasya

kAraNa-rUpeNa-ananyasya .

 

Some explanation: The word 'noin-existent' does not mean absolute

non-existence in this context. It means the world did not exist in a

differentiated condition. It was undifferentiated - had not yet

developed name and form - in which sense the word 'non-existence' is

also used in common parlance.

 

PraNAms to all advaitins.

profvk

 

 

advaitin, V Subrahmanian <subrahmanian_v

wrote:

 

 

 

I would be grateful if you (or someone here) can tell me the exact

Sanskrit word that Sri Shankaracharya uses for the word translated

as 'evolved' in the following bhashya:

 

"The condition in which name and form become evolved is different

from the condition in which name and form is not so evolved. Hence

although the effect exists as non-different from the cause before

creation, still from the standpoint of this difference in conditions

the effect is declared to be non-existent before creation."

(BS.II.1.17)

 

 

Warm regards,

Chittaranjan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

 In Brhadaranyakopanishad, there is a passage I. 2. 4 , I think in which Sri

Samkara Bhagavatpujyapa:da comments on Sa Bha:n'a Karoth and tells us that the

baby cried because of "natural ignorance". i don't have the original. Could some

one please let me know the exact SAnskrit phrase used by My Lord.

 

Lov

Bhuvaneswar

 

 

 

 

On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 Tony OClery wrote :

>advaitin, V Subrahmanian <subrahmanian_v

>wrote:

> >

> >> Brahman is the Vivartavaada.

> >

> > praNAms Sri SubramaNiyan prabhuji

> > Hare Krishna

> >

> > Kindly give me the shankara bhAshya reference for this *brahma

> > vivartavAda*....also kindly let me know what is the difference

> > between

> > kArikA's mAyA satkArya vAda & brahma vivartavAda...

> >

> > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

> > bhaskar

> >

> > Reply:

> > Namaste Bhaskarji:

> > Here are two references in Shankara Bhashya which have been

>shown as depicting the vivartavaada:

> > 1. In the Aarambhanaadhikarana first sutra:

>Tadananyatvam...2.1.6.14 the bhashya vakyam is: Tasmaad yathaa

>ghatakarakaadyaakaashaanaam mahakaasha-ananyatvam, yathaa cha

>mrgatrshnikodakaadiinaam uusharaadibhyo ananyatvam

>drshtanashtasvarupena anupaakhyatvaat, evamasya bhogya-bhoktraadi-

>prapancha-jaatasya brahmavyatirekena abhaava iti drashtavyam.

> >

> > Meaning: As the space within pots or jars are non-different from

>the cosmic space, or as water in a mirage is non-different from the

>(sandy) desert - since they sometimes appear and sometimes vanish

>away, even so it is to be understood that this diverse phenomenal

>world of experiences, things experienced, and so on, has no

>existence apart from Brahman.

>

>Namaste V-Ji et al,

>

>Vivarta, as per Monnier Williams Dictionary, means:

>(in Veda7nta) error , illusion , an apparent or illusory form ,

>unreality (caused by A-vidya1 "' , ignorance "' , and removed by

>Vidya1 , `" true knowledge ) Veda7ntas.

>

>Other meanings for the word, as per the same source, are:

>

>changing from one state to another , modification , alteration ,

>transformation , altered form or condition Ka1v. Katha1s

>

>{-vAda} m. a method of asserting the Vedanta doctrine (maintaining

>the development of the Universe from Brahma as the sole real

>entity , the phenomenal world being held to be a mere illusion or

>Ma1ya1 ; cf. %{pariNAma-vAdA})

>

>In my way of thinking Vivarta is an illusion, that is only evident

>in delusion.

>

>There is no time so everything seemingly happens at once so nothing

>is unfolding or being projected.

>

>In deep sleep or sushupti the world disappears, except for a thought

>of existence in the jiva.

>

>The Sages say when one becomes realised the world becomes then an

>appearance on the Self/Saguna.

>

>However when the body drops there is no appearance, no reason for

>Saguna only Nirguna. This is why I said that Sankara taught

>Ajitavada....................ONS...Tony.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman

and Brahman.

>Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

>To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

>Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

>

>

> Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste Shri Prof VK-ji,

 

advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk

wrote:

> The words in reference are *vyAkRta* (evolved, differentiated)

> and *avyAkRta* (not evolved, un differentiated).

>

> The quoted passage in Sanskrit is:

>

> vyAkRta-nAma-rUpatvAt dharmAt avyAkRta-nAma-rUpatvaM

> dharmAntaraM tena dharmAnatareNa ayaM asad-vyapadeshaH

> prAgutpatteH sata eva kAryasya kAraNa-rUpeNa-ananyasya .

 

 

Thank you, Sir. I relate it to the Fourth Power that the Acharya

mentions in the Saundaryalahari, verse 97. It is the Lord's Power of

Freedom and the over-powered jiva's illusion of bandha.

 

Warm regards,

Chittaranjan

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "bhuvan eswar chilukuri"

<bhuvaneswarc wrote:

>

>  In Brhadaranyakopanishad, there is a passage I. 2. 4 , I think

in which Sri Samkara Bhagavatpujyapa:da comments on Sa Bha:n'a

Karoth and tells us that the baby cried because of "natural

ignorance". i don't have the original. Could some one please let me

know the exact SAnskrit phrase used by My Lord.

>

 

 

http://www.sankara.iitk.ac.in/aus.htm

 

Brihad. upan.

[i.ii.4]

 

taM jAtamabhivyAdadAt

sa bhANakarot

saiva vAgabhavat.h || 4 ||

 

sa ca kumaaro bhiitaH svaabhaavikyaavidyayaa yuktaH bhaaNityevaM

shabdam akarot.h; saiva vaagabhavat.h, vaak shabdaH abhavat.h.