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Raju Chidambaran poses a very interesting question whether science exists

because it is not matter. So we cannot really call Scientists the

Charvakas.

 

Any scientist has to admit despite the great progress made in understanding

and harnessing nature, that there are limitations to knowledge and

technology. However, even the limitations to knowledge need not be a

general one. We can study it. We can understand and discern the specific

problems that may not have a solution either because they are unanswerable

or because their computation may not yield an outcome in finite time. The

most important point in science is testability. Any thing that falls

outside the realm of testability is put in the same bin as belief and is

considered poetry or inspirational but does not get confused with the bin in

which are placed concepts termed "knowledge".

 

Any scientist will admit that there are a lot of things that are done, not

based on knowledge, but on faith, inspiration, poetry and fiction and we may

perhaps have no way of knowing how or what it is. However, the scientist

will carefully distinguish it and set it apart from knowledge. This

distinction is extremely important. In fact, personally I feel the current

climate in the United States is extremely political and inconducive to

science, because of the ascendancy of the religious right. It is almost as

if we are on the cusp of a second dark age in the world. Case in point, the

inability to understand how evolution and creationism are not competing

theories. One is pure speculation with no potential to provide a basis for

experiment while the other has been so useful in systematizing biology that

the effort to prove it is considered unnecessary.

 

When Frederick Wohler synthesized the chemical urea in 1828, it disproved

the the theory that the chemicals of living organisms are fundamentally

different from inanimate matter and started the discipline of organic

chemistry. In the 1950s the metabolic pathways were worked out. Almost all

of biochemistry today is just matter, if we look at the knowledge portion.

That does not mean things other than matter don't exist. It falls under the

umbrella of ignorance. It will remain there until tested and proved. Given

the history of "spirit" and "soul", as a handle for experiments, it has most

often proved unfruitful in adding to the bin of knowledge. Also it has

always been proven unnecessary. This is the reason why some scientists

consider such questions as too early to be able to tackle and prove, and

therefore left alone in the bin of speculation, inspiring poetry, and

philosophy. When a scientist speculates, other scientists recognize the

speculative element and if they are good scientists they will only look for

one thing in the speculation - is this giving me a new way of thinking for

an experiment to show something that has not been established today.

Otherwise just as any human being has a right to write poetry, fiction and

philosophy, a scientist also has the right to be speculative.

 

This is where the peer review system in science relegates the speculative

and unproductive works to the lesser known works and pushes up those that

contribute to the bin of knowledge to a more widely accepted set of works.

The science of consciousness is very new, and the expectation is that

whatever it can deposit in the bin of knowledge will be useful in making

ethical decisions in clinical settings, and provide the impetus for further

experiments.

 

Another point is the use of the term emergent property of matter. While

many may see it as knowledge, a hardcore scientist would term it speculation

in the absence of a better explanation. What the scientist considers deep

explanation should have mechanistic detail or a consistent demonstration of

cause and effect.

 

In this regard, maybe science won't be capable of adding consciousness to

the bin of knowledge in the foreseeable future. But, the interesting thing

is that they have even dared to start asking the questions and probing.

 

It is in regard to what science considers knowledge is what makes it

Charvaka.

 

Pranaams

 

Gopinath Mavankal

 

 

 

Does Science Exist?

Fri, 07 Oct 2005 18:38:16 +0000

 

I have been following the discussions on Consciousness and Science with

great

interest.

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Sada ji and Ramachandran ji have rightly pointed out that science, and all

"lower" knowledge, have their existence, but only in the relative

"vyaavahaarik" sense.

 

The purpose of my question "Does Science Exist?" was not to deny existence to

science. But it was for the purpose of proposing a counter argument when

scientists make, directly or by implication, assertions such as "Nothing exists

other than matter" or "Everything is Matter". These statements contain a

logical self-contradiction and are therefore false. It is noteworthy that the

falsehood of such statements is apparent without the scientist having to accept

any vedantic concepts regarding reality or pramaanas.

 

Hari Om!

 

- Raju Chidambaram

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Namaste Chidambaramji

 

In the bin of "knowldege" as established through experimental proof, there

is nothing other than matter. All else is difficult to discern away from

speculation.

 

This distinction is important to understand, because we keep using the

term knowledge, which when explained to any scientist will appear as faith

in disguise.

 

Shraddha is more than faith, only because it has the element of accepting

that the ultimate test is not that some shashtra or apta says so, but it has

to be verified in one's own experience. This is the only element that is

scientific and sets Vedanta apart from other religious works or savants.

 

 

Regards

 

Gopinath Mavankal

 

 

----Original Message Follows----

aiyers

advaitin

advaitin (Group Advaitin)

Does Science Exist?

Mon, 10 Oct 2005 15:57:58 +0000

 

Sada ji and Ramachandran ji have rightly pointed out that science, and all

"lower" knowledge, have their existence, but only in the relative

"vyaavahaarik" sense.

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advaitin, aiyers@c... wrote:

>

> Sada ji and Ramachandran ji have rightly pointed out that science,

and all "lower" knowledge, have their existence, but only in the

relative "vyaavahaarik" sense.

>

> The purpose of my question "Does Science Exist?" was not to deny

existence to science. >

> - Raju Chidambaram

>

Namaste all.

 

I have not been following this thread carefully. Did anybody raise

the analogous question: 'Does Mathematics exist?'. A number for

example, which is itself only an abstrction, does not exist per se,

except in the minds of mathematicians, as a mental construct. This

itself tells us a great advaitic truth that the entire universe is

only a mental construct. If the mind vanishes, the universe ceases

to 'exist' for that 'mind'! Brahman alone exists, irrespective of

the mind!

 

PraNAms to all advaitins.

profvk

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Namaste profvk-JI, Chittaranjan-JI and all Advaitins

 

After a very invigorating discussion on Spinoza and Advaita can I

seek your opinion on another (1685 ) philosopher George Berkeley.

There seems to be quite a lot of similarity between Advaita and his

thought. The following snippet from ProfVK-JI seems to be in accord

with Berkeley's thought.

 

<snippet>

I have not been following this thread carefully. Did anybody raise

the analogous question: 'Does Mathematics exist?'. A number for

example, which is itself only an abstrction, does not exist per se,

except in the minds of mathematicians, as a mental construct. This

itself tells us a great advaitic truth that the entire universe is

only a mental construct. If the mind vanishes, the universe ceases

to 'exist' for that 'mind'! Brahman alone exists, irrespective of

the mind!

<end snippet>

 

George Berkeley

~~~~~~~~~~~~

This extract is from this url:

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art32037.asp

(please see also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Berkeley)

 

George Berkeley was born in 1685 and became one of the most well-

known empiricists. He is known mostly for his philosophy of Idealism,

coined in the motto, esse is percipi, which means to be is to be

perceived. Idealism puts forth the idea that everything that is known

in the world is mind-dependent. Since we cannot know anything about

the world, except through the filter of our own mind and the ideas

which we have in our mind, we can only know the reality of our ideas.

We cannot know that the external world exists, in fact, because

everything is perceived with the senses and known with the mind.

Therefore, everything in the so-called external world is merely ideas

of the senses or mind.

 

Berkeley's empiricism led him to the conclusion that the external

world does not exist. This seems like an odd conclusion, but his

argument is quite logical and valid, based on his own observations.

If everything we know about the world is merely through our senses

and ideas then we can only be sure of the reality of our perceptions

and ideas. We could easily have sensory experiences occur within our

minds which are a product of a continuity of ideas put their by

some "eternal spirit." As far as we can verify, all we have are ideas

and sense-ideas. Furthermore, matter itself would serve no purpose or

function if it could not be known by a mind.

 

The mind which experiences, forms concepts and can imagine is the

functional aspect of the universe. Soulless, purposeless matter need

not exist without minds to know it. Therefore, matter does not

actually exist, only ideas and perceptions. This argument seems to go

a little too far and is counterintuitive to the materialist, but it

raises an interesting argument which is worth consideration.

 

Regards

Hersh

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"If the mind would fain ascend to the height of science, let its first and

principal study be to know itself"

- Richard of St Victor

 

 

 

 

 

Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

 

 

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This

itself tells us a great advaitic truth that the entire universe is

only a mental construct. If the mind vanishes, the universe ceases

to 'exist' for that 'mind'! Brahman alone exists, irrespective of

the mind!

 

praNAms Sri VK prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

Kindly clarify what is the difference between vignAna vAdins *mind all*

view & above advaitic view...and also if possible please clarify

gaudapAdAchArya's views on *mAyA satkArya vAda*.

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

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advaitin, bhaskar.yr@i... wrote (in #28015):

>

>

> This

> itself tells us a great advaitic truth that the entire universe is

> only a mental construct. If the mind vanishes, the universe ceases

> to 'exist' for that 'mind'! Brahman alone exists, irrespective of

> the mind!

>

> praNAms Sri VK prabhuji

> Hare Krishna

>

> Kindly clarify what is the difference between vignAna vAdins *mind

all*

> view & above advaitic view...and also if possible please clarify

> gaudapAdAchArya's views on *mAyA satkArya vAda*.

>

> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

> bhaskar

>

 

Namaste Bhaskar prabhuji,

 

Please don't pull my leg, Bhaskar prabhuji! I am sure you know the

answer and you are only asking me so that others may know.

 

Well, please correct me if I am wrong in the following.

 

Mandukya-karika IV - 25, 26 and 27 presents the view of the

vijnAnavadins. The advaita view accepts that view only in respect of

the non-existence of external objects.

 

I do not have technical knowledge about *mAyA satkArya vAda*. I

would like to know from you. I have been thinking that satkAryavAda

is the principle of causation which asserts that the cause is in the

effect. What is common to both cause and effect is existence.

Brahman is the fundamental existence. Therefore Brahman is the only

thing everywhere and in everything. The transient notion of

something becoming something else is in the ultimate analysis,

fictitious in character. Am I right?

 

PraNAms to all advaitins.

profvk

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Please don't pull my leg, Bhaskar prabhuji! I am sure you know the

answer and you are only asking me so that others may know.

 

Humble praNAms Sri VK prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

Oh No!! kindly dont be under the impression like that!!! prabhuji, you

know what prompts me to ask this question...earlier we have had extended

discussion on pUrNamidaM & *reality* of the world apart from *mind

perception*...Just I thought, by asking this question, I shall get more

insights on the *reality* of the world(!!??) in brahman or world as brahman

....which has been upholded by other scholars in this list.

 

Ofcourse, its been a fact that both paramaguru of bhagavadpAda &

bhagavadpAda upholds the *mAyA satkAryavAda* from the empirical point of

view as against vijnAnavAdins denial of external objects. vijnAnavAdins

assert that the object is identical with the idea since both of them are

experienced together (this is only my naivy understanding of *vijnAnavAda*

of bhuddhists..advance apologies if anything presented against their

doctrine). Shankara frames his objections against this theory and says it

is on the evidence or want of evidence of some valid means of knowledge,

that we have to determine the conceivability or the inconceivability of the

existence of a thing and not vice versa.

 

But this does not anyway affect a bit to advaita's paramArtha satya i.e.

Atmaikatva or the only absolute truth of Atman. coz. the distinction of

sentient and non-sentient nature of this universe remain quite real from

the empirical view point. This shankara makes clear in AraMbhAdhikaraNa

sUtra bhAshya by asserting that all this universe of manifold things such

as experienced and the experiencers does not exist apart from brahman...in

continuation he confirms that this identification is like the same way as

pot-space & jar space are not distinct from ether in general (mahAkAsha)

and mirage water or snake in rope is not distinct from a sandy desert or

rope respectively. Here important point to be note is shankara comparing

the experiencing selves (the socalled jIvAtman) with the pot ethers and the

experienced external objects ( the socalled jagat / universe) with that of

mirage water on sandy surface or snake superimposed on rope...which

ultimately does not have any existence at any point of time.

 

Thanks prabhuji, for quoting the kArikA-s with regard to mAyA

satkAryavAda...shankara's commentary on these kArikA-s is a must read for

those who want to know the ultimate stand of advaita with regard to

universe.

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

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>He is known mostly for his philosophy of Idealism,

> coined in the motto, esse is percipi, which means to be is to be

> perceived. Idealism puts forth the idea that everything that is

known

> in the world is mind-dependent. Since we cannot know anything about

> the world, except through the filter of our own mind and the ideas

> which we have in our mind, we can only know the reality of our

ideas.

> We cannot know that the external world exists, in fact, because

> everything is perceived with the senses and known with the mind.

> Therefore, everything in the so-called external world is merely

ideas

> of the senses or mind.

 

This position of Berkeley is quite illogical.

 

According to him, if all our knowing process is only through the

mind, then how can he so positively say that world does not exist

without such mind? This is because, any positive assertion about

absence of anything (in general and about world in this case)

requires positive knowledge of such absence. Now, given that all

knowledge is only through the mind for him, how can he has any

knowledge of absence of world without such mind?

 

At the best all he could say is; "Since we cannot know anything about

the world, except through the filter of our own mind, without such

mind the existence or otherwise of this world is unknown"

 

Also, there are host of problems in such vijnyAnavadi position.

 

Even the very beginning concept of `all knowledge through the mind

only' can be questioned.

 

When Berkeley says "Since we cannot know anything about the world,

except through the filter of our own mind. . . ." , what is that "we"

meant here?

 

This assertion requires independent frame of reference other than the

mind and knowing process themselves.

 

So, what is that frame of reference?

 

Is it again the mind? Or something else?

 

If former, a vEdAntin would argue , that would lead to anavastha

(infinite regress), for the mind is not self illuminous (svaprakAsha

vastu) because it is jada vastu.

 

If later, then we would have at least one thing other than the mind

which can know something, and that destroys his position.

 

Thus, vEdAntin would continue, one has to accept a knowledge

perceiving entity behind the the mind.

 

In Dvaita vEdAnta, this is nothing but the sAkshi jnyAna of jIva.

sAkshi is the final arbitrator of validity or otherwise of all

knowledge what so ever apprehended through the mind and other sensory

instruments. Mind along with other indiriyas are just instruments

(karaNa-s) in knowledge apprehension process.

 

There is no infinite regress issue for vEdAntins, because given that

jIva is a chaitanya vastu and since svaprakAsha by nature; frame of

reference lies with the jIva itself hence there is no another frame

of reference and thus no anavastha problem there.

 

Regards,

Srinivas.

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