Guest guest Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 Raju Chidambaran poses a very interesting question whether science exists because it is not matter. So we cannot really call Scientists the Charvakas. Any scientist has to admit despite the great progress made in understanding and harnessing nature, that there are limitations to knowledge and technology. However, even the limitations to knowledge need not be a general one. We can study it. We can understand and discern the specific problems that may not have a solution either because they are unanswerable or because their computation may not yield an outcome in finite time. The most important point in science is testability. Any thing that falls outside the realm of testability is put in the same bin as belief and is considered poetry or inspirational but does not get confused with the bin in which are placed concepts termed "knowledge". Any scientist will admit that there are a lot of things that are done, not based on knowledge, but on faith, inspiration, poetry and fiction and we may perhaps have no way of knowing how or what it is. However, the scientist will carefully distinguish it and set it apart from knowledge. This distinction is extremely important. In fact, personally I feel the current climate in the United States is extremely political and inconducive to science, because of the ascendancy of the religious right. It is almost as if we are on the cusp of a second dark age in the world. Case in point, the inability to understand how evolution and creationism are not competing theories. One is pure speculation with no potential to provide a basis for experiment while the other has been so useful in systematizing biology that the effort to prove it is considered unnecessary. When Frederick Wohler synthesized the chemical urea in 1828, it disproved the the theory that the chemicals of living organisms are fundamentally different from inanimate matter and started the discipline of organic chemistry. In the 1950s the metabolic pathways were worked out. Almost all of biochemistry today is just matter, if we look at the knowledge portion. That does not mean things other than matter don't exist. It falls under the umbrella of ignorance. It will remain there until tested and proved. Given the history of "spirit" and "soul", as a handle for experiments, it has most often proved unfruitful in adding to the bin of knowledge. Also it has always been proven unnecessary. This is the reason why some scientists consider such questions as too early to be able to tackle and prove, and therefore left alone in the bin of speculation, inspiring poetry, and philosophy. When a scientist speculates, other scientists recognize the speculative element and if they are good scientists they will only look for one thing in the speculation - is this giving me a new way of thinking for an experiment to show something that has not been established today. Otherwise just as any human being has a right to write poetry, fiction and philosophy, a scientist also has the right to be speculative. This is where the peer review system in science relegates the speculative and unproductive works to the lesser known works and pushes up those that contribute to the bin of knowledge to a more widely accepted set of works. The science of consciousness is very new, and the expectation is that whatever it can deposit in the bin of knowledge will be useful in making ethical decisions in clinical settings, and provide the impetus for further experiments. Another point is the use of the term emergent property of matter. While many may see it as knowledge, a hardcore scientist would term it speculation in the absence of a better explanation. What the scientist considers deep explanation should have mechanistic detail or a consistent demonstration of cause and effect. In this regard, maybe science won't be capable of adding consciousness to the bin of knowledge in the foreseeable future. But, the interesting thing is that they have even dared to start asking the questions and probing. It is in regard to what science considers knowledge is what makes it Charvaka. Pranaams Gopinath Mavankal Does Science Exist? Fri, 07 Oct 2005 18:38:16 +0000 I have been following the discussions on Consciousness and Science with great interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Sada ji and Ramachandran ji have rightly pointed out that science, and all "lower" knowledge, have their existence, but only in the relative "vyaavahaarik" sense. The purpose of my question "Does Science Exist?" was not to deny existence to science. But it was for the purpose of proposing a counter argument when scientists make, directly or by implication, assertions such as "Nothing exists other than matter" or "Everything is Matter". These statements contain a logical self-contradiction and are therefore false. It is noteworthy that the falsehood of such statements is apparent without the scientist having to accept any vedantic concepts regarding reality or pramaanas. Hari Om! - Raju Chidambaram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Namaste Chidambaramji In the bin of "knowldege" as established through experimental proof, there is nothing other than matter. All else is difficult to discern away from speculation. This distinction is important to understand, because we keep using the term knowledge, which when explained to any scientist will appear as faith in disguise. Shraddha is more than faith, only because it has the element of accepting that the ultimate test is not that some shashtra or apta says so, but it has to be verified in one's own experience. This is the only element that is scientific and sets Vedanta apart from other religious works or savants. Regards Gopinath Mavankal ----Original Message Follows---- aiyers advaitin advaitin (Group Advaitin) Does Science Exist? Mon, 10 Oct 2005 15:57:58 +0000 Sada ji and Ramachandran ji have rightly pointed out that science, and all "lower" knowledge, have their existence, but only in the relative "vyaavahaarik" sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 advaitin, aiyers@c... wrote: > > Sada ji and Ramachandran ji have rightly pointed out that science, and all "lower" knowledge, have their existence, but only in the relative "vyaavahaarik" sense. > > The purpose of my question "Does Science Exist?" was not to deny existence to science. > > - Raju Chidambaram > Namaste all. I have not been following this thread carefully. Did anybody raise the analogous question: 'Does Mathematics exist?'. A number for example, which is itself only an abstrction, does not exist per se, except in the minds of mathematicians, as a mental construct. This itself tells us a great advaitic truth that the entire universe is only a mental construct. If the mind vanishes, the universe ceases to 'exist' for that 'mind'! Brahman alone exists, irrespective of the mind! PraNAms to all advaitins. profvk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Namaste profvk-JI, Chittaranjan-JI and all Advaitins After a very invigorating discussion on Spinoza and Advaita can I seek your opinion on another (1685 ) philosopher George Berkeley. There seems to be quite a lot of similarity between Advaita and his thought. The following snippet from ProfVK-JI seems to be in accord with Berkeley's thought. <snippet> I have not been following this thread carefully. Did anybody raise the analogous question: 'Does Mathematics exist?'. A number for example, which is itself only an abstrction, does not exist per se, except in the minds of mathematicians, as a mental construct. This itself tells us a great advaitic truth that the entire universe is only a mental construct. If the mind vanishes, the universe ceases to 'exist' for that 'mind'! Brahman alone exists, irrespective of the mind! <end snippet> George Berkeley ~~~~~~~~~~~~ This extract is from this url: http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art32037.asp (please see also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Berkeley) George Berkeley was born in 1685 and became one of the most well- known empiricists. He is known mostly for his philosophy of Idealism, coined in the motto, esse is percipi, which means to be is to be perceived. Idealism puts forth the idea that everything that is known in the world is mind-dependent. Since we cannot know anything about the world, except through the filter of our own mind and the ideas which we have in our mind, we can only know the reality of our ideas. We cannot know that the external world exists, in fact, because everything is perceived with the senses and known with the mind. Therefore, everything in the so-called external world is merely ideas of the senses or mind. Berkeley's empiricism led him to the conclusion that the external world does not exist. This seems like an odd conclusion, but his argument is quite logical and valid, based on his own observations. If everything we know about the world is merely through our senses and ideas then we can only be sure of the reality of our perceptions and ideas. We could easily have sensory experiences occur within our minds which are a product of a continuity of ideas put their by some "eternal spirit." As far as we can verify, all we have are ideas and sense-ideas. Furthermore, matter itself would serve no purpose or function if it could not be known by a mind. The mind which experiences, forms concepts and can imagine is the functional aspect of the universe. Soulless, purposeless matter need not exist without minds to know it. Therefore, matter does not actually exist, only ideas and perceptions. This argument seems to go a little too far and is counterintuitive to the materialist, but it raises an interesting argument which is worth consideration. Regards Hersh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 "If the mind would fain ascend to the height of science, let its first and principal study be to know itself" - Richard of St Victor Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 This itself tells us a great advaitic truth that the entire universe is only a mental construct. If the mind vanishes, the universe ceases to 'exist' for that 'mind'! Brahman alone exists, irrespective of the mind! praNAms Sri VK prabhuji Hare Krishna Kindly clarify what is the difference between vignAna vAdins *mind all* view & above advaitic view...and also if possible please clarify gaudapAdAchArya's views on *mAyA satkArya vAda*. Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2005 Report Share Posted October 11, 2005 advaitin, bhaskar.yr@i... wrote (in #28015): > > > This > itself tells us a great advaitic truth that the entire universe is > only a mental construct. If the mind vanishes, the universe ceases > to 'exist' for that 'mind'! Brahman alone exists, irrespective of > the mind! > > praNAms Sri VK prabhuji > Hare Krishna > > Kindly clarify what is the difference between vignAna vAdins *mind all* > view & above advaitic view...and also if possible please clarify > gaudapAdAchArya's views on *mAyA satkArya vAda*. > > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! > bhaskar > Namaste Bhaskar prabhuji, Please don't pull my leg, Bhaskar prabhuji! I am sure you know the answer and you are only asking me so that others may know. Well, please correct me if I am wrong in the following. Mandukya-karika IV - 25, 26 and 27 presents the view of the vijnAnavadins. The advaita view accepts that view only in respect of the non-existence of external objects. I do not have technical knowledge about *mAyA satkArya vAda*. I would like to know from you. I have been thinking that satkAryavAda is the principle of causation which asserts that the cause is in the effect. What is common to both cause and effect is existence. Brahman is the fundamental existence. Therefore Brahman is the only thing everywhere and in everything. The transient notion of something becoming something else is in the ultimate analysis, fictitious in character. Am I right? PraNAms to all advaitins. profvk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2005 Report Share Posted October 11, 2005 Please don't pull my leg, Bhaskar prabhuji! I am sure you know the answer and you are only asking me so that others may know. Humble praNAms Sri VK prabhuji Hare Krishna Oh No!! kindly dont be under the impression like that!!! prabhuji, you know what prompts me to ask this question...earlier we have had extended discussion on pUrNamidaM & *reality* of the world apart from *mind perception*...Just I thought, by asking this question, I shall get more insights on the *reality* of the world(!!??) in brahman or world as brahman ....which has been upholded by other scholars in this list. Ofcourse, its been a fact that both paramaguru of bhagavadpAda & bhagavadpAda upholds the *mAyA satkAryavAda* from the empirical point of view as against vijnAnavAdins denial of external objects. vijnAnavAdins assert that the object is identical with the idea since both of them are experienced together (this is only my naivy understanding of *vijnAnavAda* of bhuddhists..advance apologies if anything presented against their doctrine). Shankara frames his objections against this theory and says it is on the evidence or want of evidence of some valid means of knowledge, that we have to determine the conceivability or the inconceivability of the existence of a thing and not vice versa. But this does not anyway affect a bit to advaita's paramArtha satya i.e. Atmaikatva or the only absolute truth of Atman. coz. the distinction of sentient and non-sentient nature of this universe remain quite real from the empirical view point. This shankara makes clear in AraMbhAdhikaraNa sUtra bhAshya by asserting that all this universe of manifold things such as experienced and the experiencers does not exist apart from brahman...in continuation he confirms that this identification is like the same way as pot-space & jar space are not distinct from ether in general (mahAkAsha) and mirage water or snake in rope is not distinct from a sandy desert or rope respectively. Here important point to be note is shankara comparing the experiencing selves (the socalled jIvAtman) with the pot ethers and the experienced external objects ( the socalled jagat / universe) with that of mirage water on sandy surface or snake superimposed on rope...which ultimately does not have any existence at any point of time. Thanks prabhuji, for quoting the kArikA-s with regard to mAyA satkAryavAda...shankara's commentary on these kArikA-s is a must read for those who want to know the ultimate stand of advaita with regard to universe. Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2005 Report Share Posted October 11, 2005 >He is known mostly for his philosophy of Idealism, > coined in the motto, esse is percipi, which means to be is to be > perceived. Idealism puts forth the idea that everything that is known > in the world is mind-dependent. Since we cannot know anything about > the world, except through the filter of our own mind and the ideas > which we have in our mind, we can only know the reality of our ideas. > We cannot know that the external world exists, in fact, because > everything is perceived with the senses and known with the mind. > Therefore, everything in the so-called external world is merely ideas > of the senses or mind. This position of Berkeley is quite illogical. According to him, if all our knowing process is only through the mind, then how can he so positively say that world does not exist without such mind? This is because, any positive assertion about absence of anything (in general and about world in this case) requires positive knowledge of such absence. Now, given that all knowledge is only through the mind for him, how can he has any knowledge of absence of world without such mind? At the best all he could say is; "Since we cannot know anything about the world, except through the filter of our own mind, without such mind the existence or otherwise of this world is unknown" Also, there are host of problems in such vijnyAnavadi position. Even the very beginning concept of `all knowledge through the mind only' can be questioned. When Berkeley says "Since we cannot know anything about the world, except through the filter of our own mind. . . ." , what is that "we" meant here? This assertion requires independent frame of reference other than the mind and knowing process themselves. So, what is that frame of reference? Is it again the mind? Or something else? If former, a vEdAntin would argue , that would lead to anavastha (infinite regress), for the mind is not self illuminous (svaprakAsha vastu) because it is jada vastu. If later, then we would have at least one thing other than the mind which can know something, and that destroys his position. Thus, vEdAntin would continue, one has to accept a knowledge perceiving entity behind the the mind. In Dvaita vEdAnta, this is nothing but the sAkshi jnyAna of jIva. sAkshi is the final arbitrator of validity or otherwise of all knowledge what so ever apprehended through the mind and other sensory instruments. Mind along with other indiriyas are just instruments (karaNa-s) in knowledge apprehension process. There is no infinite regress issue for vEdAntins, because given that jIva is a chaitanya vastu and since svaprakAsha by nature; frame of reference lies with the jIva itself hence there is no another frame of reference and thus no anavastha problem there. Regards, Srinivas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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