Guest guest Posted October 9, 2005 Report Share Posted October 9, 2005 Namaskar Ramchandranji, Your interpretation of the second verse said... **************************** "Neither gods nor the great sages know the secret of My birth; for I am the prime cause in all respects of gods as well as of the great seers." **************************** What/who are these GODS? We are humans and there is only one supreme conciousness - Brahman. But still the scriptures talk about GODS. They are neither superlative nor they are physical/materialistic. What is the significance of them and what role do they play in humans' life? Again these GODS varies as per religions. Let alone religions, they varies even in geographic locations. How should we interprete this? Regards Madhav India Matrimony: Find your partner now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 advaitin, Madhav Mundlye <madhavm_99> wrote: > > > Namaskar Ramchandranji, > > > > > > Your interpretation of the second verse said... > > > > **************************** > > "Neither gods nor the great sages know the secret of My birth; for I > am the prime cause in all respects of gods as well as of the great > seers." > > > **************************** > > > > What/who are these GODS? We are humans and there is only one supreme conciousness - Brahman. But still the scriptures talk about GODS. They are neither superlative nor they are physical/materialistic. What is the significance of them and what role do they play in humans' life? > > > > Again these GODS varies as per religions. Let alone religions, they varies even in geographic locations. How should we interprete this? > > > > Regards > > > > Madhav Namaste Madhav, you have an interesting question thanks in advance to Ramchandranji for some more explanations... curious too about i believe, that indead there is "difference" of "God(s)" and changless Brahman maybe by "God"....by this energy or force.....one entered to life.... means to get a body-mind-intellect.....a "form" in constant change.... this "form" is in constant change in relation to a percieved world...also in constant change.... what hold all "this" appearence together is maybe the force of "God".....or a "God"..... maybe there are different kind of those "worlds" existing...and so.....different "Gods".... the consciousness of "Oneness"....of identification with the (whole) perception.......is possible by entering in consciousness of "God".... by whatever "practice" or "effort" or "non-effort"....or... this consciousness of "God"....or some call it "love of God".....or .... make that one become aware slowly of changless and formless Brahman......(behind) all This perception Brahman is like...."the other side".....untouched by all movements and change ...and "Gods"........but at same time the source of All so i beleive that it is of great help....to "percieve" and "feel" also God.....when one "percieve" all this moving and appearing world.... "God"....and consciousness (of).....is necessary to get an "idea" of Brahman..... this are few thoughts only please feel free to show the mistakes in "understanding and perceptions"..... thank you Regards and love Marc > > > > > India Matrimony: Find your partner now. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Pranam Ram Chandran Ji When the great lord mentions that ""Neither gods nor the great sages know the secret of My birth" Is not lord Krishna discoursing here from the perspective of him being Eshwara or primal creator and not as all pervading Brahman? For we understand Brahman as the uncaused cause that is never born and exists forever. The primal creator originates from Brahman and fashions the universe using maya. The sages or gods do not completely understand the secret origination of this creator lord who is a manifestation of the un-manifested supreme Brahman. The question then is how does Ishwara originate from the changeless entity Brahman? For any change to manifest the source in this case Brahman must also effect change in itself? However the scriptures tell us that Brahman is changeless forever. Since Brahman is changeless then Ishwara is nothing but a reflection of Brahman. Kindly throw some light and validate this understanding. Pranam, RR --- Ram Chandran <RamChandran wrote: > > > "Neither gods nor the great sages know the secret of > My birth; for I > am the prime cause in all respects of gods as well > as of the great > seers." > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 advaitin, Rajesh Ramachander <rrajeshchander> wrote: > > > The question then is how does Ishwara originate from > the changeless entity Brahman? For any change to > manifest the source in this case Brahman must also > effect change in itself? However the scriptures tell > us that Brahman is changeless forever. Since Brahman > is changeless then Ishwara is nothing but a reflection > of Brahman. > > Kindly throw some light and validate this > understanding. > Namaste Rajesh - ji, You are right. Brahman is changeless. So the Ishvara that we imagine or see is itself in the world of mAyA -- except that this mAyA affects only us but not Ishvara, because it is in His control. Ishvara is technically called Saguna Brahman in advaita literature. Is the ultimate Brahman nirguna or saguna? It is in the answer to this question where advaita differs from the other schools. The advaita contention is: Brahman is nirguna. But if you view it from a human angle, with all our physical and psychological limitations, Brahman appears to us as saguna brahman.It is the human limitations that make us think in terms of saguna brahman. These limitations also called upAdhis. They are the result of avidyA. If and when we can transcend this field of limitations then we will be able to identify ourselves with the all-pervading effervescence that is nirguna brahman. That is moksha or liberation. PraNAms to all advaitins profvk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Namaste Ramachandranji, You Wrote: Also the glories of the Lord can help us to get an intellectual comprehension of Nirguna Brahman. My question: How can glories i.e. gunas, help us comprehend nirguna? If so it appears to me that even the lack of glories or the opposite of them - disrepute, should be able to help us comprehend nirguna. That brings me to the main question - if the lord is everything, then why does he talk of only his glories? Are not the opposite of glories also him? prNAms, Venkat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Namaste Sri Rajesh, Sri Mahesh and other Satsanghis: I am happy to read your enthusiastic enquiry about reference regarding `Isvara' and the Gods. I like the way you posed the question and let me try to explain my understanding. Before I begin my answer to your questions, let me repeat the guidelines for the Satsangh so that we can all benefit the maximum: Instead of addressing your questions to me (Ram Chandran Ji), please address to: "Namaste Satsanghis." By addressing this way, everyone one will be able to participate and provide their insights. After posting the verses, I want to be an observer (witness) of the Satsangh (discussions between all participants) and I will certainly intervene when it become necessary. This will help everyone to participate and the purpose of the Satsangh will be better served with greater amount of participation. Please understand that there may or may not have exact answer for every question and consequently everyone can provide their opinions without fear. Most importantly Satsanghis fully respect every opinion and will try their level best to answer back respectfully. This is just a conversation between members of the same `Family' where the purpose is to understand the Truth and the goal is to attain spiritual maturity. The list wants to assure all the new Satsanghis that will get full protection from unwanted `insults' or `disrespectful comments' from anyone. In spiritual discussions `Ego' has no place and someone asks a question and someone else provides the answers. In the nature, there are givers and takers and without the takers there will be no givers! First in Bhagavad Gita, Sage Vyasa keeps continuity and consistency between the chapters. As we all know that Gita in the conversational style begins from Chapter 2. From chapter 2 onwards, the last verse of a chapter is linked to the first verse of next chapter. To understand the first verse of chapter 10 we do need to dig into what Lord Krishna says in the last verse of chapter 9 (verse 34). manmana bhava madbhaktah madyajl mam namaskuru mamevaisyasi yuktvaivam atmaaam matparayanah (9-34) May you become one whose mind is committed to me, who is devoted to me, whose rituals are offered to me and may you surrender to me. Having yourself prepared in this way and being one for whom I am the ultimate end you will reach me alone, the self. Generally we are committed to various other things in the world and use the Lord to gain artha and kama. There is nothing wrong with that but having achieved what we wanted we are not going to complete the journey towards fulfillment. Therefore Lord Krishna suggests that we should choose Him straight away as the one to be gained, as the one in whom we lose our identity. When we surrender to the Lord, we should surrender body, mind and intellect (all inclusive) and that is the only way to lose the `doership.' The knowledge of the Self (Wisdom) can be gained only by the total surrender of doership. Verses 1 and 2 of chapter 10 is in continuation of the above verse and Lord Krishna emphasizes the final goal all seekers including that of Arjuna is to reach Him. The use of the words 'Bhuyah' and 'Eva' (once again) in the beginning of the verse 1 is intended to make it clear that the subject discussed in chapters VII to IX is being taken up once more, though in a different way. The supreme word (Paramam Vacah) is that which unravels the mystery of the most secret virtues, glory and truth of the supreme Person, God, and is conducive to His Realization. By exhorting Arjuna to hear it once again, the Lord seeks to convey that the truth relating to Bhakti or devotion to Him is exceptionally difficult to understand; hence he should hear it with great attention, reverence and love, considering it most essential to hear it again and again. By using the adjective 'Priyamanaya' for Arjuna, the Lord says in effect, 'Arjuna, the love you bear in your heart for Me is exceedingly great, and you listen to My words with utmost reverence and love, relishing them as nectar. It is therefore that without the least hesitation, and even unasked by you, I am repeatedly unraveling to you the mystery of My most secret virtues, glory and truth'. All this is due to your love. The use of the word Hitakamyaya indicates that Arjuna's love and devotion had filled the Lord's heart with solicitude for the latter's welfare. Therefore, whatever the Lord proposed to tell him was naturally an expression of His solicitude for his welfare. Verse 2: God manifests Himself by His own incomparable Yogic power in the forms of Brahma, Vishnu and Rudra for the creation, maintenance and destruction of the universe respectively. He appears in our midst from time to time in different divine forms (avatars such as Sri Rama, Sri Krishna etc.) to destroy the wicked and to protect His devotees. (In Chapter 4 verses 4 and 5 He declares the reasons for His avatars - for establishing righteousness). He assumes various forms as desired by His devotees in order to bless them with His sight. On what particular occasions, in what particular forms, for what particular reasons and in what particular manner does God manifest Himself are divine secrets the reality of which is not known even to the gods and sages. The word 'Suraganah' stands for the various classes or types of gods recognized by the Scriptures, such as the eleven Rudras, the eight Vasus, the twelve Adityas, Prajapati, the forty-nine Maruts, the twin Asvinikumaras, Indra and so on. And the word Maharsayah should be taken to refer to the seven great sages (Saptarishis). In the latter half of this verse the Lord seeks to convey that the gods and all sages from whom this world has evolved have originated from Him; He is both their material and instrumental cause; and whatever learning, wisdom, energy, luster and power are possessed by them are all derived from Him. (Refer also verses 4 and 5 of chapter 9 where He describes the `Maayaa Power.') The answer to Sri Rajesh's question is understand the distinction between, "Nirguna" and "Saguna" aspects of the Brahman. As Bhagawan confirms beautifully, it is impossible for anyone including the Gods to understand the Brahman. The Upanishads declare that "Brahman only knows the Brahman." Until we surrender out doership, we can visualize the `Saguna Brahman – Isvara) through the Divine Glories (vibhutis) spelled out in this chapter. In other words, Isvara is the intellectual perception of the Brahman and we are able to visualize His presence through everything that we see in the nature and that shows our limited vision. The Lord says that `vision' experienced by and also through the Gods (Indira, Yama, Vayu, Varuna, Surya) also incomplete! This story from Kenaupanishad may provide an explanation about `Gods' and the Brahman. (Source: http://www.vedanta-atlanta.org/stories/) The gods and the demons had been having a war. Somehow the gods won, at least for the time being. But they did not realize that the power of Brahman, the Supreme Being, had made their victory possible. The gods took the credit themselves. When Brahman saw them congratulating each other, he decided to act, and to teach them a good lesson. So he appeared before them in the form a spirit. The gods said to each other in great wonder, "What is this awesome spirit?" Then they asked Agni, the god of fire, if he would try to find out who it was, and he agreed. He ran toward the spirit and that spirit said, "Stop! Who are you?" "I am Agni, the god of fire," he proudly replied. "I see. And what power do you have?" asked Brahman. "Why, I can burn anything on the earth," said Agni. So Brahman, in that spirit form, put a straw on the ground in front of him, saying, "is that so? Burn this, then!" Agni went toward it, his fiery breath crackling and arms ablaze, but in no way could he burn that straw, for some strange reason, no matter how hard he tried. Going back to the other gods, he told them shamefully that he had not been able to find out who that being was. Now they had to ask someone else to try. This time they chose Vayu, the god of the wind. "You please try to find out who this spirit is," they said. Vayu agreed and ran boldly toward the spirit, who told him, "Stop! Tell me who you are." "I am Vayu, god of air and wind," he answered. "Oh! What power do you have?" asked Brahman. "Why, I make hurricanes and cyclones. I can lift up anything on this earth," said Vayu. "Is that so?" said the spirit, placing a straw in front of him. "Then lift up this!" Vayu rushed at it with a terrific noise but no matter how he huffed and puffed the straw remained on the ground. He too returned to the gods, ashamed, and let them know that the spirit baffled him. Finally the gods chose Indra, their highest and best, and asked him to do the job. Indra agreed to it. But when he approached that spirit, it suddenly disappeared! In its place was seen the shining form of the goddess Uma, a lovely woman adorned with gems, who is called the revealer of Truth. "Who is that spirit," Indra asked her, "whom we have been seeing here?" "That is Brahman, the Supreme Spirit," she answered. "It is all due to the power of Brahman that you have had victory over the demons, and have become great. Don't you know that?" Let me stop here and allow other Satsanghis to give more insights on the questions raised. Harih Om! Ram Chandran Note: Sorry for a long reply, future replies hopefully will be short! advaitin, Rajesh Ramachander <rrajeshchander> wrote: > > > Is not lord Krishna discoursing here from the > perspective of him being Eshwara or primal creator and > not as all pervading Brahman? advaitin, "dennis_travis33" <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > advaitin, Madhav Mundlye <madhavm_99> > wrote: > > > > > > What/who are these GODS? We are humans and there is only one > supreme conciousness - Brahman. But still the scriptures talk about > GODS. They are neither superlative nor they are > physical/materialistic. What is the significance of them and what > role do they play in humans' life? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Namasthe Sathsangis. In my view, all the GODS/Suraganas are only transactional reality just as the humans are, though we are all in fact Brahman. But what distinguishes suraganas and humans is probably the merits they have attained and the how high are they in the ladder of spritual realization that they are Brahman. The stories from Kenopanishad that Ramachandran ji narrated are a pictorial representation of what Lord Krishna says in second chapter of Geetha about the qualities/definitions? of brahman - "Nainam Chindhanthi shastrAni, nainam dhahathi paavakaha, na chainam klethayanthyapo, na shoshayathi maaruthaha". The one which cannot be destroyed by weapons, the one that cannot be burnt by fire, the one that cannot be made wet by water and the one that cannot be dried by vaayu. The series of verses in second chapter trying to describe about brahman clearly points to the direction of Brahman. Because brahman is ONLY one of its kind that cannot be compared with anything that we know, all that anyone talks about could only be just pointers upon which one should contemplate and evolve. Indra, who is considered to be a SURA, is basically a position/post someone holds. The post of Indra could be attained by anyone who has that relavant qualifications is what I understand. And the person who holds that post changes. AS krishna states in second chapater, "Naa Satho Vidhyathe Bhaavo Naabhaavo vidhyathe sathaha" meaning - That which exists cannot cease to exist and the one that does not exist cannot come into existense. So our body that apparently came into existense during our so called birth cannot be real. Same way Indira and the SURA ganas change and they come back to mortal world as their merits depelte as Krishna told in chapter 9 - "Tey punya mAsadhya surendra lokam Ashnanthi divyaan Dhivideva Bhogan tE tham bhukthva swargalokam vishalam kshenE punye marthya lokam vishanthi.. Evam thrye dharmam anuprapanna gatha gatham kaama kaamaa labhanthe". So the post of Indra is anithya and changes. So it cannot be brahman, but they are apparanly higher in the ladder of realization. So Krishna states here that not only the humans who are fully deluded, but those who are consdered to be GODS/SURAs who are better than humans merit wise and realilzation wise could not also understand my full glory. I just gave an explanation that would convince myself. Please let me know whether my views are at least not laughable and please throw some light on this topic for me to get better. Pranams, Muralidaran Chakravarthy Ram Chandran <RamChandran wrote: Namaste Sri Rajesh, Sri Mahesh and other Satsanghis: I am happy to read your enthusiastic enquiry about reference regarding `Isvara' and the Gods. I like the way you posed the question and let me try to explain my understanding. Before I begin my answer to your questions, let me repeat the guidelines for the Satsangh so that we can all benefit the maximum: Instead of addressing your questions to me (Ram Chandran Ji), please address to: "Namaste Satsanghis." By addressing this way, everyone one will be able to participate and provide their insights. After posting the verses, I want to be an observer (witness) of the Satsangh (discussions between all participants) and I will certainly intervene when it become necessary. This will help everyone to participate and the purpose of the Satsangh will be better served with greater amount of participation. Please understand that there may or may not have exact answer for every question and consequently everyone can provide their opinions without fear. Most importantly Satsanghis fully respect every opinion and will try their level best to answer back respectfully. This is just a conversation between members of the same `Family' where the purpose is to understand the Truth and the goal is to attain spiritual maturity. The list wants to assure all the new Satsanghis that will get full protection from unwanted `insults' or `disrespectful comments' from anyone. In spiritual discussions `Ego' has no place and someone asks a question and someone else provides the answers. In the nature, there are givers and takers and without the takers there will be no givers! First in Bhagavad Gita, Sage Vyasa keeps continuity and consistency between the chapters. As we all know that Gita in the conversational style begins from Chapter 2. From chapter 2 onwards, the last verse of a chapter is linked to the first verse of next chapter. To understand the first verse of chapter 10 we do need to dig into what Lord Krishna says in the last verse of chapter 9 (verse 34). manmana bhava madbhaktah madyajl mam namaskuru mamevaisyasi yuktvaivam atmaaam matparayanah (9-34) May you become one whose mind is committed to me, who is devoted to me, whose rituals are offered to me and may you surrender to me. Having yourself prepared in this way and being one for whom I am the ultimate end you will reach me alone, the self. Generally we are committed to various other things in the world and use the Lord to gain artha and kama. There is nothing wrong with that but having achieved what we wanted we are not going to complete the journey towards fulfillment. Therefore Lord Krishna suggests that we should choose Him straight away as the one to be gained, as the one in whom we lose our identity. When we surrender to the Lord, we should surrender body, mind and intellect (all inclusive) and that is the only way to lose the `doership.' The knowledge of the Self (Wisdom) can be gained only by the total surrender of doership. Verses 1 and 2 of chapter 10 is in continuation of the above verse and Lord Krishna emphasizes the final goal all seekers including that of Arjuna is to reach Him. The use of the words 'Bhuyah' and 'Eva' (once again) in the beginning of the verse 1 is intended to make it clear that the subject discussed in chapters VII to IX is being taken up once more, though in a different way. The supreme word (Paramam Vacah) is that which unravels the mystery of the most secret virtues, glory and truth of the supreme Person, God, and is conducive to His Realization. By exhorting Arjuna to hear it once again, the Lord seeks to convey that the truth relating to Bhakti or devotion to Him is exceptionally difficult to understand; hence he should hear it with great attention, reverence and love, considering it most essential to hear it again and again. By using the adjective 'Priyamanaya' for Arjuna, the Lord says in effect, 'Arjuna, the love you bear in your heart for Me is exceedingly great, and you listen to My words with utmost reverence and love, relishing them as nectar. It is therefore that without the least hesitation, and even unasked by you, I am repeatedly unraveling to you the mystery of My most secret virtues, glory and truth'. All this is due to your love. The use of the word Hitakamyaya indicates that Arjuna's love and devotion had filled the Lord's heart with solicitude for the latter's welfare. Therefore, whatever the Lord proposed to tell him was naturally an expression of His solicitude for his welfare. Verse 2: God manifests Himself by His own incomparable Yogic power in the forms of Brahma, Vishnu and Rudra for the creation, maintenance and destruction of the universe respectively. He appears in our midst from time to time in different divine forms (avatars such as Sri Rama, Sri Krishna etc.) to destroy the wicked and to protect His devotees. (In Chapter 4 verses 4 and 5 He declares the reasons for His avatars - for establishing righteousness). He assumes various forms as desired by His devotees in order to bless them with His sight. On what particular occasions, in what particular forms, for what particular reasons and in what particular manner does God manifest Himself are divine secrets the reality of which is not known even to the gods and sages. The word 'Suraganah' stands for the various classes or types of gods recognized by the Scriptures, such as the eleven Rudras, the eight Vasus, the twelve Adityas, Prajapati, the forty-nine Maruts, the twin Asvinikumaras, Indra and so on. And the word Maharsayah should be taken to refer to the seven great sages (Saptarishis). In the latter half of this verse the Lord seeks to convey that the gods and all sages from whom this world has evolved have originated from Him; He is both their material and instrumental cause; and whatever learning, wisdom, energy, luster and power are possessed by them are all derived from Him. (Refer also verses 4 and 5 of chapter 9 where He describes the `Maayaa Power.') The answer to Sri Rajesh's question is understand the distinction between, "Nirguna" and "Saguna" aspects of the Brahman. As Bhagawan confirms beautifully, it is impossible for anyone including the Gods to understand the Brahman. The Upanishads declare that "Brahman only knows the Brahman." Until we surrender out doership, we can visualize the `Saguna Brahman – Isvara) through the Divine Glories (vibhutis) spelled out in this chapter. In other words, Isvara is the intellectual perception of the Brahman and we are able to visualize His presence through everything that we see in the nature and that shows our limited vision. The Lord says that `vision' experienced by and also through the Gods (Indira, Yama, Vayu, Varuna, Surya) also incomplete! This story from Kenaupanishad may provide an explanation about `Gods' and the Brahman. (Source: http://www.vedanta-atlanta.org/stories/) The gods and the demons had been having a war. Somehow the gods won, at least for the time being. But they did not realize that the power of Brahman, the Supreme Being, had made their victory possible. The gods took the credit themselves. When Brahman saw them congratulating each other, he decided to act, and to teach them a good lesson. So he appeared before them in the form a spirit. The gods said to each other in great wonder, "What is this awesome spirit?" Then they asked Agni, the god of fire, if he would try to find out who it was, and he agreed. He ran toward the spirit and that spirit said, "Stop! Who are you?" "I am Agni, the god of fire," he proudly replied. "I see. And what power do you have?" asked Brahman. "Why, I can burn anything on the earth," said Agni. So Brahman, in that spirit form, put a straw on the ground in front of him, saying, "is that so? Burn this, then!" Agni went toward it, his fiery breath crackling and arms ablaze, but in no way could he burn that straw, for some strange reason, no matter how hard he tried. Going back to the other gods, he told them shamefully that he had not been able to find out who that being was. Now they had to ask someone else to try. This time they chose Vayu, the god of the wind. "You please try to find out who this spirit is," they said. Vayu agreed and ran boldly toward the spirit, who told him, "Stop! Tell me who you are." "I am Vayu, god of air and wind," he answered. "Oh! What power do you have?" asked Brahman. "Why, I make hurricanes and cyclones. I can lift up anything on this earth," said Vayu. "Is that so?" said the spirit, placing a straw in front of him. "Then lift up this!" Vayu rushed at it with a terrific noise but no matter how he huffed and puffed the straw remained on the ground. He too returned to the gods, ashamed, and let them know that the spirit baffled him. Finally the gods chose Indra, their highest and best, and asked him to do the job. Indra agreed to it. But when he approached that spirit, it suddenly disappeared! In its place was seen the shining form of the goddess Uma, a lovely woman adorned with gems, who is called the revealer of Truth. "Who is that spirit," Indra asked her, "whom we have been seeing here?" "That is Brahman, the Supreme Spirit," she answered. "It is all due to the power of Brahman that you have had victory over the demons, and have become great. Don't you know that?" Let me stop here and allow other Satsanghis to give more insights on the questions raised. Harih Om! Ram Chandran Note: Sorry for a long reply, future replies hopefully will be short! advaitin, Rajesh Ramachander <rrajeshchander> wrote: > > > Is not lord Krishna discoursing here from the > perspective of him being Eshwara or primal creator and > not as all pervading Brahman? advaitin, "dennis_travis33" <dennis_travis33> wrote: > > advaitin, Madhav Mundlye <madhavm_99> > wrote: > > > > > > What/who are these GODS? We are humans and there is only one > supreme conciousness - Brahman. But still the scriptures talk about > GODS. They are neither superlative nor they are > physical/materialistic. What is the significance of them and what > role do they play in humans' life? Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Advaita Bhagavad gita Visit your group "advaitin" on the web. advaitin Muralidaran Chakravarthy, UNISYS CORPORATION./ GFM, SDDC, DOD #200, Stovall st, Hoffman Building II (9N-03-47), Alexandria, VA - 22332,USA. WorkPhone: 703-428-3425 Efax : 425-795-3398 Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 List Moderator's Note: First the moderators want to congratulate you for your active participation with enthusiasm and thoughtful insights. While sending your replies, please do not include the previous posters' messages in the tail end (or in the beginning) of your message. Both the new members and other members do seem to continue to repeat doing this. The list appreciates your cooperation in keeping the message crisp and clear by removing all unnecessary parts of previous messages. (As it was done in this message!) Hari Om. Pranams with love and respect to Satsanghis. ******************************************************************** 1. Madhavji Question: What/who are these GODS? We are humans and there is only one supreme conciousness - Brahman. But still the scriptures talk about GODS. They are neither superlative nor they are physical/materialistic. What is the significance of them and what role do they play in humans' life? 2. Rajeshji's Question: The question then is how does Ishwara originate from the changeless entity Brahman? For any change to manifest the source in this case Brahman must also effect change in itself? 3. S Venkatji's Question: How can glories i.e. gunas, help us comprehend nirguna? ******************************************************************** Attempting to answer questions with my little understanding. Ans to Q.1: President of the nation is only one, but he represents all people in the nation. He has all the collective powers to decide about every individual in that nation. The lives of everyone in that nation run on his decisions. That President is like Bhagwan. However President by Himself cannot do all jobs. He therfore appoints ministers to do different tasks for him. He then gives them powers that are needed to do those tasks. Even though they have certain powers final decision is always President's. Also, ministers are appointed only after President takes charge of the office. Not before that. All the Demi Gods are like ministers. Ans to Q.2: When mirage appears on the sand, does the sand undergo any change? When we dream at night, do we undergo any change? Both are only illusions. They are there when we are there. Once we are out they are not. Actually 'they never were' in the first place. World is like mirage, dream. Brahman is the substratum on which it appears. Ans to Q.3: Just as we use one thorn to pull out another thorn, we use gunas to transcend gunas. Once the thorn is out, both thorns get discarded. Similarly by Rajas we remove Tamas. By Sattwa we remove Rajas. Sattwa gets overcome by Sattwa only e.g. when we take on some good noble endevour, for some days we feel pride. However, if we keep on doing it, eventually it becomes our second nature like breathing. Then there is no more pride. When Sattwa gets transcended by Sattwa, our Swaroop is revealed. e.g. If a flashlight is covered with lot of blankets we won't see it. But,if remove those blankets one by one, finally flashlight will shine. We don't need any other light source to see it. It is self Shining and everything is illumined by that. e.g. clouds cover sun but it is due to presence of sun that we know presence of clouds. Namaste ! - Padma advaitin, Muralidaran Chakravarthy <chiefminister@r...> wrote: > > Namasthe Sathsangis. > > In my view, all the GODS/Suraganas are only transactional reality just as the humans are, though we are all in fact Brahman. But what distinguishes suraganas and humans is probably the merits they have attained and the how high are they in the ladder of spritual realization that they are Brahman. > > > Ram Chandran <RamChandran@a...> wrote: > Namaste Sri Rajesh, Sri Mahesh and other Satsanghis: > > I am happy to read your enthusiastic enquiry about reference > regarding `Isvara' and the Gods. I like the way you posed the > question and let me try to explain my understanding. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Namaste Sri Venkatramanji: Nirguna Brahman or simply Brahman is beyond the intellect! This is not my words and this what is being said in the scripture. Intellectual comphresnsion is a limited vision of the Brahman. The Lord talks of his glories only to signify the presence of "mAyA" and that also explains who we can't grasp the Truth in the presence of 'avidya.' In the entire Gita, the necessatiy for the "AnthakaranaSuddhi - purification of the mind/heart" is emphasized both directly and implicitly. Honestly, I am trying using the intellectual means to explain "metaphysical assertion" and I accept the failure of the medium (language and words) for providing a convincing answer. When do not understand, we should recognize the importance of contemplation seek His grace to provide us the means to understand. Harih Om! Ram Chandran advaitin, S Venkatraman <svenkat52@g...> wrote: > > Namaste Ramachandranji, > You Wrote: > Also the glories of the Lord > can help us to get an intellectual comprehension of Nirguna Brahman. > My question: > How can glories i.e. gunas, help us comprehend nirguna? If so it appears to > me that even the lack of glories or the opposite of them - disrepute, should > be able to help us comprehend nirguna. That brings me to the main question - > if the lord is everything, then why does he talk of only his glories? Are > not the opposite of glories also him? > prNAms, > Venkat > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Namaste Satsanghis According to Vivakananda, the Personal God is the highest reading of the Impersonal that can be reached by our intellect. I quote him below: Quotes from Vivakananda - Source:Complete Works/Vol 2/PRACTICAL VEDANTA III Personal God "Take, for instance, the idea of a Personal God. A man who understands and believes in the Impersonal John Stuart Mill, for example may say that a Personal God is impossible, and cannot be proved. I admit with him that a Personal God cannot be demonstrated. But He is the highest reading of the Impersonal that can be reached by the human intellect, and what else is the universe but various readings of the Absolute? It is like a book before us, and each one has brought his intellect to read it, and each one has to read it for himself. " Personal God as phenomenon "Thus this universe itself is the Absolute, the unchangeable, the noumenon; and the phenomenon constitutes the reading thereof. For you will first find that all phenomena are finite. Every phenomenon that we can see, feel, or think of, is finite, limited by our knowledge, and the Personal God as we conceive of Him is in fact a phenomenon. The very idea of causation exists only in the phenomenal world, and God as the cause of this universe must naturally be thought of as limited, and yet He is the same Impersonal God. This very universe, as we have seen, is the same Impersonal Being read by our intellect. Whatever is reality in the universe is that Impersonal Being, and the forms and conceptions are given to it by our intellects. Whatever is real in this table is that Being, and the table form and all other forms are given by our intellects." Regards Hersh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Namaste Satsanghis: Those interested to know more about the "Divine Glories" may want to read the Purusa Suktam. The Purusha Suktam in praise of Lord Vishnu is one of the Pancha Sooktams of the Vedic tradition. The Purusha Sukta is the hymn [R.V.10.90]. It describes primeval man, whose praises it sings. It is also the song of creation. It tells the story of the first sacrifice, where Man was both the sacrificial animal, as well as the object of the sacrifice. It narrates how the various classes of men, animals and the celestial objects were created from this Man. The Ultimate Reality or Truth is the Transcendental Person Infinite, Eternal Bliss, Prior to all kinds of relations. That Person is Radiant Consciousness, or Divine Ignorance Radiance. The same Person, although One, is also Dynamic,expressed as an Infinitely Extended Process of numberless kinds of Manifest Play. In that Play, self-consciousness arises in each specific process or apparent entity. And this self-consciousness within the Dynamic Play of Existence cannot know or experience the Divine Person over against itself. The Divine Person is a Unity, Who Transcends the Dynamic Play while also appearing to Pervade it and even to Be it. Therefore, to Realize the Divine Person, individual beings must transcend their manifest forms, or their independent existence in the Play. The Divine Person does not appear as such to the independent conscious entities within the Play. Rather, the Ultimate Reality seems to be a hidden Transcendental Consciousness, over against the Universal Drama of all phenomena. Those interested may visit the URL: http://www.astrojyoti.com/purushasuktam.htm The site provides the verses along with the meaning. Also you can listen the chanting rendered by a Vedic Pundit. Harih Om! Note: This is just for information and not for further discussion. Let us just focus on the Gita Satsangh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 advaitin, "Ram Chandran" <RamChandran@a...> wrote (in #28000): > > Namaste Sri Venkatramanji: > > Nirguna Brahman or simply Brahman is beyond the intellect! This is > not my words and this what is being said in the scripture. > Intellectual comphresnsion is a limited vision of the Brahman. The > Lord talks of his glories only to signify the presence of "mAyA" and > that also explains who we can't grasp the Truth in the presence > of 'avidya.' Namaste all A few words on Nirguna and Saguna brahman.In the orthodox tradition of Smarta families, there is a tradition of what is called a panchayatana puja. Here the divinities are worshipped not in their human-like forms but in certain symbols in the form of stones, which are nothing but certain rock formations available in specified locations in the land of India.This tradition may be taken as an intermediate stage between the worship of Godhead with form and the worship of the formless, because the symbols of worship as rock formations have certainly a form but they are also formless in that they have no parts like face, eyes, body, hands or feet. It is as though the devotee trains himself to take the mind from the forms to the formless while at the same time allowing full scope for his devotional feelings. I personally belong to this tradition. I wrote the above now to tell you about some personal experience which has a bearing on nirguna vs. saguna. My puja includes, if time permits, an abhisheka of these divinities. I have also a small icon-deity in the form of a silver idol, of Amba in Her form of Raja Rajeshvari. With all the training in advaita philosophy that I have imbibed from my father, still, when the Raja Rajeshvari icon is bathed with the chanting of the mantras, there is a certain thrilling satisfaction which certainly exceeds, even though by a small fraction, the satisfaction that I get when I am doing the abhisheka of the other panchayatana stone-deities. This is only an illustration of the Vasana imbedded in the human mind and of the truism stated by the Lord in Gita XII-5: "Greater is their trouble whose minds are set on the unmanifest; for the goal, the unmanifest, is very hard for the embodied to reach". I am writing all this, because somebody, in this thread asked the question: If Brahman is nirguna, why do we have to resort to saguna brahman? PraNAms to all advaitins. profvk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 --- "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk wrote: > I am writing all this, because somebody, in this > thread asked the > question: If Brahman is nirguna, why do we have to > resort to saguna > brahman? > Namaste, I don't have the above question in my mind but I have wondered many times about Krishna and Shankaracharya. Are Vishnu and Shiva mythological entities or real entities who actually came to earth as Krishna and Shankara. Is there a yes or no answer for this question in this material world ? If a Vedantin tells me that he follows Bhagavad Gita or tries to follow the path prescribed by Acharya Shankara or Madhava or Ramanuja then is it not an acceptance of Shiva and Vishnu ? Then we cannot say that Shiva and Vishnu are just names and forms given to the impersonal/absolute Brahman. So the question arises, who are Shiva and Vishnu ? Isn't Shruti considered divinely authorized (or perhaps the divine breath) ? I thought Purusha Suktam and Sri Rudram are part of Shruti. So I am confused as to where we stand with respect to Vishnu and Shiva. If we say "Consciousness is Brahman" and accept it as the absolute, eternal truth, then even Sri Rudram and Purusha Suktam should be treated as absolute, eternal truth. How about Indra, Varun and other devis and devatas. I would like to hear from the learned members. with best regards, Shailendra Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Many thanks Ramachandranji and Profvkji for your patient replies. I do understand when told that a bit of devotion can achieve much more in the field of spirituality than all the intellectual reasoning that one may do. But as of now, for me, that understanding is not natural or instinctive. praNAms, Venkat On 10/11/05, V. Krishnamurthy <profvk wrote: > > advaitin, "Ram Chandran" <RamChandran@a...> > wrote (in #28000): > > > > Namaste Sri Venkatramanji: > > > > Nirguna Brahman or simply Brahman is beyond the intellect! This is > > not my words and this what is being said in the scripture. > > Intellectual comphresnsion is a limited vision of the Brahman. The > > Lord talks of his glories only to signify the presence of "mAyA" and > > that also explains who we can't grasp the Truth in the presence > > of 'avidya.' > > Namaste all > > A few words on Nirguna and Saguna brahman.In the orthodox tradition of > Smarta families, there is a tradition of what is called a panchayatana > puja. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 advaitin, Shailendra Bhatnagar <bhatnagar_shailendra> wrote (in #28012): > > I have wondered many times about Krishna and > Shankaracharya. Are Vishnu and Shiva mythological > entities or real entities who actually came to earth > as Krishna and Shankara. Is there a yes or no answer > for this question in this material world ? VK: How do you distinguish between mythological entities and real entities? Frankly I do not understand your question. >If a > Vedantin tells me that he follows Bhagavad Gita or > tries to follow the path prescribed by Acharya > Shankara or Madhava or Ramanuja then is it not an > acceptance of Shiva and Vishnu ? VK: Yes, it is. >Then we cannot say > that Shiva and Vishnu are just names and forms given > to the impersonal/absolute Brahman. So the question > arises, who are Shiva and Vishnu ? VK: They are as true as Shailendra and VK are. Except that, they have extraordinary divine powers (including creative powers, etc.) full of satva and fully having control over Prakriti. We on the other hand are full of tamas and rajas, and we are totally in the control of prakriti. Their physical personality itself is in their control whereas we are under the control of our physical personalities. Their physical personality never dies, it only disappears. Our physical personality dies. They are not in the karmic cycle as we are. They are Brahman and they know it. We are also brahman, but we don't know what this 'we' stands for, and so we don't know the real 'we' is also brahman. Their physical names and forms are also part of the mAyA of the Absolute, but they have complete control over this mAyA, because they are the Absolute! > Isn't Shruti > considered divinely authorized (or perhaps the divine > breath) ? I thought Purusha Suktam and Sri Rudram are > part of Shruti. So I am confused as to where we stand > with respect to Vishnu and Shiva. If we say > "Consciousness is Brahman" and accept it as the > absolute, eternal truth, then even Sri Rudram and > Purusha Suktam should be treated as absolute, eternal > truth. VK: Yes. > Howabout Indra, Varun and other devis and > devatas. VK: Indra, Varuna and other devatas are as true as we are except that they live in a different world and enjoy extraordinary powers which they have acquired by their past karma in human births. But their life also is finite just as ours, except that their finiteness is pretty large. They also fall a prey to passions just as we do. They are also in the karmic cycle as we do, but right now, in the position of Indra Varuna etc. their prArabdha is only to enjoy the fruits of the good they must have done in the past lives. Shailendra-ji, I am not sure whether other learned members on this list will agree with me, but I am not starting a debate here. What I have written is my conviction. You may want to take it just as an 'opinion'! PraNAms to all advaitins. profvk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2005 Report Share Posted October 11, 2005 Namaste Satsanghis, Ram Chandranji's mail was very informative. Though it did not cleared my doubts, it helped to formulate my question properly. I am a human being as of now. My target is to realise Brahman and attain Mukti (let's not argue on words I have used. I know they may not be right, e.g. there may not be any "Attainment" etc.) The journey from where I am today and where I want to reach is very lengthy, difficult and the path is lost in fog. I have many questions regarding this path but I am not concerned about them right now. Scriptures are my guides or lamps in the path. Let's consider only Shruti, the most important and reliable scripture. Shruti mentions about sages and GODS. Sages, I can understand, were realised humans. Some of the gods also can be understood as natural powers e.g. fire, wind etc. But rest of the gods are not known to me where I am today. Why does Shruti mentions them? E.g. Indra. I neither feel it, nor CONCEPTUALISE it clearly like Agni. So it adds to my confusion. Already I can't clearly understand my destination, Brahman, as of today. Why Shruti adds to my confusion by mentioning other GODS? Since Shruti mentions them, they must have some significance. What is THAT significance? There is only one thing(?) between me as a human and me as the Brahman and that is Sadhana. What role does these gods play in my sadhana? I am more concerned as the Jnyan portion of Shruti (Upanishads) also mention them. So they have more significant than just Karmakandas. Regards Madhav India Matrimony: Find your partner online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2005 Report Share Posted October 11, 2005 Namaste Satsanghis: The answers to questions regarding metaphysical assertions such as "Brahman realization" have to come from inside! Most of the time, our doubts are caused by looking outside instead of inside. Ramana Maharishi calls it as "Self-Enquiry." and our scriptures declare it as "anthakaranaSuddhi - mind purification process." Lord Krishna's declares that "the whole host of gods do not know my glory nor do the sages because I am the cause of all the gods and sages." Mama prabhavam can be taken as my glories or my coming into being in the form of this world, they do not totally know. They all know, but not totally. Who? We are not talking about local people here. Suraganah, the whole host of gods. Suras are the devas like Indra, Varuna, etc. Even they do not know me totally. They may know themselves as paramatina, but still they do not know all the glories of Isvara. Even Brahmaji can only create, he cannot sustain. And Visnu can only sustain, he cannot create. That is not his job. Siva as Rudra can only destroy, not create or sustain. Each one has only one job. Therefore, all my glories, even Brahmaji etc., do not know. Not only that, even the great sages, maharsls do not know. Maharsls are the ones from whom we get all our knowledge. Even, they do not know Isvara's giories totally. In general they know everything. As jnanis they know aham satyam brahma everything else is mithya so everything, known and unknown, is myself alone. Essentially, the Scriptures and Lord Krishna declare that only the Brahman knows his own mAyA. Brahman is the subject and everything other than the Brahman which includes Gods described above and the sages are objects. The subject only knows the subject and object will not know the subject! Mathematically speaking, there is only one "Infinity" and everything other than that is finite however big that number may be! In conclusion, implicitly this verse outlines the distinction between "vyavaharika (relative) reality" and "paramarthika (absolute) reality. Through this verses and through verse 34 of Chapter 9, Lord Krishna emphasizes that our ultimate goal should be to seek "Him" and He is the knower of the Truth and the Truth Itself! Brahman is the one with the " direct knowledge and experience" and everyone else including the Gods and Sages have at the most indirect knowledge and they can at the most explain their experience using `words.' The limitation of language on the part of the listener and the speaker all edit, abridge and distort the very experience that they may be describing. Lord Krsna in essence says, all these devas do not know Myglories totally because I am the cause of all the devas, and all the maharsis. What is being described here is similar to the distinction between "struti and smriti." Struti represents the `direct knowledge' and smriti embodies indirect knowledge and hence less reliable than smriti. Finally, the fact that sri Madhav still has doubts confirms the fact that he is the best source to clear his own doubts and none of us can do full justice!! Harih Om! Ram Chandran advaitin, Madhav Mundlye <madhavm_99> wrote: > > Namaste Satsanghis, > > Why does Shruti mentions them? E.g. Indra. I neither feel it, nor CONCEPTUALISE it clearly like Agni. So it adds to my confusion. Already I can't clearly understand my destination, Brahman, as of today. Why Shruti adds to my confusion by mentioning other GODS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2005 Report Share Posted October 11, 2005 Hari Om. Pranams with Love and Respect to Satsanghis. 10.1: Saint Jnaneshwar Maharaj says - just like when we want to fill a pot, we first pour only little water in it and make sure that the pot is not leaking. Only after making sure that water is retained we fill the pot. Like that whatever Bhagwan told earlier was to test if Arjuna was listening with attention. Arjuna passed this test and proved to be worthy of listening to this secret. Bhagwan then got filled with love for Arjuna like a rainy cloud that sees the glory of high mountain peak. With all love Bhagwan said to Arjuna "Hey Brave warrior, listen, I am reiterating the Tattwa that I have told you before. Just like when the crop starts growing the farmer feels delighted and doesn't feel tired of hard work. Like that I am not doing any favour on you by repeating it. I am telling you this out of my own will for my own joy. Just like mothter puts nice clothes and ornaments on tiny little baby. That baby doesn't care for all those ornaments but mother only wants to delight her eyes watching baby all decorated. Like that the more I see you gaining 'Atma Heet'(Self-knowledge) my joy is getting multiplied. I have totally fallen for your sneha, love and no matter how much I give, it is not enough. This is the reason I am telling you my secret. Understand that my speech is Parabrahma in the form of words coming to embrace you." >From this verse, few points that I see are - * Student has proved himself to be worthy (purified mind) * Student has showered love on teacher and has drawn Guru's grace as a result * Guru is telling this out of sheer joy and love, not out of any need (characteristic of realised master). * Guru enjoys teaching a humble, receptive disciple. Things to learn from this verse: We must purify ourselves by Sadhana to be worthy to receive Jnana. It is the love for the calf that fills the udder of mother cow. Like that Guru's grace will shower only if we carry out instructions of our Guru with utmost love and faith with great humility. Unless we pass the test and prove ourselves worthy Guru will not reveal supreme secrets to us. Namaste ! Padma advaitin, "Ram Chandran" <RamChandran@a...> wrote: > This chapter describes the glories of the Bhagavan (Isvara). The > repetition of His glories is to emphasize the need for us to focus > on Him instead of the worldly objects. Also the glories of the Lord > can help us to get an intellectual comprehension of Nirguna Brahman. > Gitacharya understood our difficulty of comprehending the Isvara and > consequently He repeats His glories again and again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2005 Report Share Posted October 12, 2005 Namaste PadmaJi: Thanks for sharing Sri Jnaneshwar's commentary with the Satsanghis. Please share Sri Jnaneshwar's commentaries during the entire Satsangh along with your final insightful thoughts. Looking forward to your active participation, Harih Om! Ram Chandran advaitin, "pjoshi99" <pjoshi99> wrote: > > Hari Om. Pranams with Love and Respect to Satsanghis. > > 10.1: > > Saint Jnaneshwar Maharaj says - just like when we want to fill a > pot, we first pour only little water in it and make sure that the > pot is not leaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2005 Report Share Posted October 15, 2005 Hari Om. Pranams with Love and Respect to Satsanghis. 10.2: Saint Jnaneshwar Maharaj says - Hey Arjun, while describing me, vedas take vow of silence, Mind and Wind lose their speed and power, the Sun and Moon lose their shine even without night. Oh Arjun, just like foetus in the womb of mother cannot see youthful beauty of its mother like that Gods cannot know me. Just as fishes cannot fathom the vast ocean or a fly cannot cross the endless expanse of the sky, Maharshi's knowledge cannot see me. 'Who am I', 'How great I am', 'From where have I come' aeons have passed while analysing answers to these questions. The reason for this is, I am the origin of these Gods and Maharshis and all other beings. Therefore hey Pandawa, it is difficult for them to know me. If the water that is flowing downstream rises to the top of the mountain, or the growing tree meets its roots, then only this world that has come from me, will know me. Or if the little tiny leaf coming out of branch can cover the whole banyan tree, or if the waves on the water can behold the whole ocean in them, or the minutest atom of dust particle can behold the entire globe of earth in it, then only these beings Maharashis or Gods that have originated from me will be able to know me. Important Points that I see in this verse: * Vedas represent all the knowledge of this world. Mind represents , Mind, Intellect and ego, instruments of experiencing and comprehending. Wind represnts five elements, that covers all sense objects of this world. Sun and Moon represent illuminators, that is sense organs. That means Bhagwan is beyond all knowledge of this world and beyond all experiences. He cannot be known by Mind or Intellect. He cannot be grasped by knowing objects of this world. He cannot be known by Sense Organs. * Common factor between these three examples ("Foetus in the womb trying to see Mother's beauty", "fish in the water trying to fathom ocean" and "fly trying to cross the sky") - these efforts are focused 'outwards'. They are searching 'outside' them. * The basic questions('Who am I', 'How great I am', 'From where have I come') are analysed and discussed for aeons, means answers cannot be found by mere analyis and discussions. Something more is needed. * It is difficult for an "effect" to know its "cause". * Two examples ("Water flowing downstream rises up on the mountain" and "Growing tree meets the root") signify need for "changing the course" by unlearning worldly ways and materialistic thinking and gaining back innocence of babyhood, in order to know Bhagwan. * "Tiny leaf covering banyan tree", "Waves beholding whole ocean", "minutest atom of dust beholding globe of earth" - these are possible only if one gives up identification with outward appearance, turns inwards and sees the oneness by focusing on essence. e.g. essence of leaf and banyan tree is same, essence of ocean and wave is same (water), essence of dust particle and globe of earth is same. Seeing oneness in plurality is the way to know Bhagwan's essence. What can I learn from this verse: * In Chandogya Upanishad 7th Chapter Naradji gives big list of texts that He had studied to His Guru Sanat Kumar and says that even after studying all that, His grief has not gone. Getting worldly knowledge by studying different texts will not help us to know Bhagwan. * Seeker should not run after different experiences (e.g. flying in the air, seeing lights, colors etc. ) because Bhagwan cannot be known by that. * Bhagwan cannot be known as long as our sense organs are indulging in sense objects. The desire to enjoy sense pleasures has to be given up. * In worldly transactions our focus and sphere of experience is "outside" us and we use our mind, intellect and sense organs to know. Due to that habbit we seek Bhagwan like searching any other object of this world. We stretch our sense organs and mind trying to grasp vastness of Bhagwan outside us and we can't. This approach of seeking is of no avail. * Mere Shravan and Manan cannot give us knowledge of Bhagwan. Contemplation is needed. * Cause will be known only when identification with effect is given up. Identification with "BMI" and "different roles that we play e.g. mother, father, employee, son, daugther, man, woman etc." must be given up. * All the bad things we learnt in order to survive in the world e.g. lying, cheating, boasting, hoarding, hurting etc. has to be given up. We need to learn to live in the present moment like a baby. * Continuous vision of "Self in me is Self in everybody", "I am not doer or enjoyer" has to be maintained while transacting in the world. Namaste ! Padma advaitin, "pjoshi99" <pjoshi99> wrote: > > Hari Om. Pranams with Love and Respect to Satsanghis. > > 10.1: > > Saint Jnaneshwar Maharaj says - just like when we want to fill a > pot, we first pour only little water in it and make sure that the > pot is not leaking. 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