Intellectual understanding vs direct realization?

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January 12, 2005

praNAms

Hare Krishna

Chris prabhuji:

Ramana Maharshi has stated: "Jnana once revealed, needs time to steady

itself".

bhaskar :

This is prasankhyAna vAda ( sustained effort to maintain *that* state)

which shankara says not required for a jnAni. Since his ultimate

realisation is beyond the notion of time & space. I dont think Sri ramaNa

maharShi advocating this...the following quote from your previous mail

confirms it. Here it is :

// quote //

but eventually a

> time will come when you are fully established in the Self. When that

> happens, you cannot fall. You have reached your destination and no

> further efforts are required. Until that moment comes, constant

> sadhana is required.

//unquote//

Chris prabhuji:

Many teachers in the neo advaitin movement do their pupils a disservice

by telling them no effort is needed. Its a misinterpretation; no effort

is necessary when you abide as Self, but when you get pulled out by

vasanas effort is again much needed.

bhaskar :

A jnAni (jnAnanishTa) does not accrue any vAsana-s nor any residual

vAsana-s & its fruits can have influence over him. Since his jnAna

sublates the very notion of doership & enjoyership (katrutva & bhOktrutva

bhAva) he will be established completely in the secondless nature of his

true svarUpa. So, there is no question of falling back nor there is a

trouble of pulling of vAsana-s for him.

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

January 13, 2005

Namaste All

Bhaskarji - a quick thought- I think the difference is you are just

talking about a jnani who obviously does not need anything nor does

need to do anything.

Chris first talks about a Saadhak or a spiritual aspirant who

definitely needs to do sadhana and then draws a picture of the jnani

who is in a state that transcends everything.

Many namaskarams to all

Sridhar

advaitin, bhaskar.yr@i... wrote:

>

> praNAms

> Hare Krishna

>

> Chris prabhuji:

>

> Many teachers in the neo advaitin movement do their pupils a disservice

> by telling them no effort is needed. Its a misinterpretation; no effort

> is necessary when you abide as Self, but when you get pulled out by

> vasanas effort is again much needed.

>

> bhaskar :

>

> A jnAni (jnAnanishTa) does not accrue any vAsana-s nor any residual

> vAsana-s & its fruits can have influence over him. Since his jnAna

> sublates the very notion of doership & enjoyership (katrutva &

bhOktrutva

> bhAva) he will be established completely in the secondless nature of his

> true svarUpa. So, there is no question of falling back nor there is a

> trouble of pulling of vAsana-s for him.

>

> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

> bhaskar

January 13, 2005

praNAm Sridhar prabhuji

Hare krishna

I was commenting on the following sentence by Chris prabhuji.

no effort

> is necessary when you abide as Self, but when you get pulled out by

> vasanas effort is again much needed.

When you are completely realized that you are yEkamEvAdvitIya brahman

(*abide as Self* in the above sentence) there is absolutely no question of

pulling out by vAsana-s from it...as jnAni attains complete vAsanA kshaya

i.e. including prArabda & sanchita karma phala...if the abiding as self is

mere coming & going state by the influence of vAsana-s then it is not an

absolute realisation...so the *effort is *again* much needed* does not

applicable to a true jnAni...Even after attaining jnAna, some sub-divisions

of advaita schools say it requires sustained effort to *maintain* that

jnAna...this is called prasankhyAna which has been categorically refuted by

shankara in sUtra & gIta bhAshya. I was trying to convey this....

Kindly pardon me if I mis-read the above sentence.

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

January 13, 2005

Namaste,

its nice to have arrived on this list.

thank you Sridharji for stepping in. I was indeed talking about a

Saadhak's experiences and not about a Jnani, who obviously is not

subject to vasanas and gunas because his mind is dead and he is ever

established in the Self.

I also want to add here, that I am not much of a philosopher. I have

had the great good fortune to be called to Arunachala and Ramana

Maharshi in 1995 and since then I am walking the path as laid out by

Maharshi. I can only write from my own experience. Nothing more,

nothing less.

Om Arunachala Shiva

Christiane

On Jan 13, 2005, at 10:14, asridhar19 wrote:

>

> Namaste All

> Bhaskarji - a quick thought- I think the difference is you are just

> talking about a jnani who obviously does not need anything nor does

> need to do anything.

> Chris first talks about a Saadhak or a spiritual aspirant who

> definitely needs to do sadhana and then draws a picture of the jnani

> who is in a state that transcends everything.

> Many namaskarams to all

> Sridhar

> advaitin, bhaskar.yr@i... wrote:

> >

> > praNAms

> > Hare Krishna

> >

> > Chris prabhuji:

> >

> > Many teachers in the neo advaitin movement do their pupils a

> disservice

> > by telling them no effort is needed. Its a misinterpretation; no

> effort

> > is necessary when you abide as Self, but when you get pulled out by

> > vasanas effort is again much needed.

> >

> > bhaskar :

> >

> > A jnAni (jnAnanishTa) does not accrue any vAsana-s nor any residual

> > vAsana-s & its fruits can have influence over him. Since his jnAna

> > sublates the very notion of doership & enjoyership (katrutva &

> bhOktrutva

> > bhAva) he will be established completely in the secondless nature

> of his

> > true svarUpa. So, there is no question of falling back nor there

> is a

> > trouble of pulling of vAsana-s for him.

> >

> > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

> > bhaskar

>

> Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity

> of Atman and Brahman.

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Monsoonhouse Int.

Kovalam/Kerala

contact: christianecameron

January 13, 2005

Namaste Bhaskar Prabhuji

Just out of interest let me pursue this just one bit more. I must

confess that I am not well read in the works you are conversant with.

advaitin, bhaskar.yr@i... wrote:

>

> praNAm Sridhar prabhuji

> Hare krishna

>

> I was commenting on the following sentence by Chris prabhuji.

>

> no effort

> > is necessary when you abide as Self, but when you get pulled out by

> > vasanas effort is again much needed.

just to re-iterate, this statement above peratins to an aspirant not a

jnani.

Further I believe this very well describes the difference between

'kevala nirvikalpa samadhi' and 'sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi. From the

former state which belongs to an aspirant there is always a re-entry

into the materialistic world orbit due to vasana pulls etc.

While established in Sahaja Nirvikalpa samadhi ( as they say

'effortless abidance in self) there , as you say there is no karma of

any type left, no unroasted vasanas etc.

>

> When you are completely realized that you are yEkamEvAdvitIya brahman

> (*abide as Self* in the above sentence) there is absolutely no

question of

> pulling out by vAsana-s from it...as jnAni attains complete vAsanA

kshaya

> i.e. including prArabda & sanchita karma phala...

Your state described above seems like being established in sahaja

Nirvikalpa Samadhai

if the abiding as self is

> mere coming & going state by the influence of vAsana-s then it is not an

> absolute realisation...

The above seems like kevala nirvikalpa samadhi

>so the *effort is *again* much needed* does not

> applicable to a true jnAni...Even after attaining jnAna, some

sub-divisions

> of advaita schools say it requires sustained effort to *maintain* that

> jnAna...this is called prasankhyAna which has been categorically

refuted by

> shankara in sUtra & gIta bhAshya. I was trying to convey this....

I think I agree with you entirely here.

However, I have also read Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa say that a jnani

even after attaining realization may retain a thin veil of ego to

serve the world. One example he would give is that Narada retained a

little of the ego of devotion. He himself claimed to have thin veil of

ego which he called the ego which is servant of the lord .

> Kindly pardon me if I mis-read the above sentence.

There is no-one to take offense nor anyone to pardon in a satsangha.

I think the entire passage in totality may have given you a different

impression. I could identify with it as a seeker who is very much

moved and tossed by vasanas.

>

> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

> bhaskar

Thanks Bhaskarji

Many namaskarams to all

Sridhar

January 13, 2005

Namaskaram,

I was referring to the External Samadhi state of the Sadhak and to

Sahaja Samadhi of the Jnani, Kevala is a third state.

Ramana Maharshi gives the following pointer on the difference of the

three states:

"........In Kevala Samadhi, the activities (vital and mental), waking,

dream and sleep, are only merged, ready to emerge after regaining the

state other than samadhi.In Sahaja Samadhi the activities, vital and

mental, and the states are destroyed, never to reappear. However,

others notice the Jnani active.....

"...External Samadhi is holding on to Reality while witnessing the

world, without reacting to it from within. There is the stillness of a

waveless ocean."

from the Talks, 84

The state of the Jnani is Sahaja Samadhi. His mind is dead and he is

permanently established in the Self. All other samadhi states come and

go and require some sort of effort, they therefore pertain to the

sadhaka, whose mind is not destroyed yet.

I am not aware, if Shri Shankaracharya's teaching differs here, please

clarify if this is so.

>

> However, I have also read Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa say that a jnani

> even after attaining realization may retain a thin veil of ego to

> serve the world. One example he would give is that Narada retained a

> little of the ego of devotion. He himself claimed to have thin veil of

> ego which he called the ego which is servant of the lord .

>

In Maharshi's case one may get the impression that the "little ego

devotion" he retained was his Love for Arunachala, a manifestation of

Lord Shiva. But as far as I know he never elaborated on this.

>

Best wishes

Om Arunachala Shiva

Christiane

>

> Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity

> of Atman and Brahman.

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contact: christianecameron

January 14, 2005

Namaste christianeji and all

The namaskaram was nice

Some terms in your message are not very clear - example External Samadhi.

I have heard of Savikalpa and nirvikalpa samadhi. Kevala is another

terms i have come across in a separate book which I thought was same

as savikalpa.

Also to further classify samadhi as external or internal may cause

more confusion - i guess there is some problem here in translation

from sanskrit to english.

Since It is now very obvious to me that I don't have a clear idea, can

request clarification on how samadhi is defined and a small

explanation on types of samadhi.

I did a search on the archives and only the previous 4 messages from

Bhaskarji , christianeji and mine popped up.

Many namaskarams to all

Sridhar

advaitin, christiane cameron

<christianecameron@m...> wrote:

> Namaskaram,

>

> I was referring to the External Samadhi state of the Sadhak and to

> Sahaja Samadhi of the Jnani, Kevala is a third state.

>

January 14, 2005

Namaskaram,

In the Talks with Ramana Maharshi you find a table on page 359

explaining the different states. Each state is further termed "Bahya"

external and "Antar" internal. In the Bahya state of Kevala

Nirvikalpa Samadhi the Sadhaka merges in the one Reality underlying all

the phenomena and remains unaware of transitory manifestations, but can

function in the world. This state is compared to the waveless ocean

whose waters are still and placid. In Antar Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi

the Sadhaka merges in the Inmost Being which is the One Reality giving

rise to all thoughts and remaining unaware of anything else. This

state is compared to a flame unagitated by currents of air, but burning

quite steady. In this state the sadhaka cannot function in the world.

"When these kinds of nirvikalpa samadhi are not attended with effort

and it is realized that the waveless ocean of external samadhi and the

steady flames of internal samadhi are identical, the state is said to

be Sahaja Nirvikalpa Samadhi."

Savikalpa Samadhi is alos divided into bahya and antar and refers to

the various states the sadhak encounters with effort before attaining

Nirvikalpa Samadhi.

I hope this makes it clearer.

With Love

Christiane

On Jan 14, 2005, at 10:16, asridhar19 wrote:

>

> Namaste christianeji and all

> The namaskaram was nice

> Some terms in your message are not very clear - example External

> Samadhi.

> I have heard of Savikalpa and nirvikalpa samadhi. Kevala is another

> terms i have come across in a separate book which I thought was same

> as savikalpa.

> Also to further classify samadhi as external or internal may cause

> more confusion - i guess there is some problem here in translation

> from sanskrit to english.

> Since It is now very obvious to me that I don't have a clear idea, can

> request clarification on how samadhi is defined and a small

> explanation on types of samadhi.

> I did a search on the archives and only the previous 4 messages from

> Bhaskarji , christianeji and mine popped up.

> Many namaskarams to all

> Sridhar

>

> advaitin, christiane cameron

> <christianecameron@m...> wrote:

> > Namaskaram,

> >

> > I was referring to the External Samadhi state of the Sadhak and to

> > Sahaja Samadhi of the Jnani, Kevala is a third state.

> >

Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity

> of Atman and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at:

> To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

> Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

>

> Links

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Monsoonhouse Int.

Kovalam/Kerala

contact: christianecameron

January 15, 2005

respected advaitins,

it is true that a jnani is immune

from vasanas and other impediments to his effort to

stay on in that state.

however, becoming a jnani is a long

way for mundane sadhakas.

people are born with certain vasanas

accrued from the karmas of their previous births.

it takes a few re-births for a

person to progress from one chakra to the next

higher one. for somebody born in the mooladhara

chakra or lower, it will need enormous effort even to

begin to understand what "realization" could

connote. on the other hand, for somebody born in the

aanja or sahaSraara, it will be child's play to

acheive samadhi, relinquish it at will,and regain it

at will!

obviously, saints like ramana were

born , after many births of sustained sat-karma, at

the very highest chakra. they would have been on the

threshold of nirvana even at the end of their previous

janma. aadi shankara renounced the world at the age of

seven. obviously, he was situate in sahasraara even

before his birth!

yes, for a mundane sadhak,

continuous, sustained all round effort is needed for

progress, and for that is needed HIS blessings in

abundance.

sorry to interrupt the giants.

sincerely yours,

a.v.krshnan.

--- bhaskar.yr wrote:

>

> praNAms

> Hare Krishna

>

> Chris prabhuji:

>

> Ramana Maharshi has stated: "Jnana once revealed,

> needs time to steady

> itself".

>

> bhaskar :

>

> This is prasankhyAna vAda ( sustained effort to

> maintain *that* state)

> which shankara says not required for a jnAni. Since

> his ultimate

> realisation is beyond the notion of time & space. I

> dont think Sri ramaNa

> maharShi advocating this...the following quote from

> your previous mail

> confirms it. Here it is :

>

> // quote //

>

> but eventually a

> > time will come when you are fully established in

> the Self. When that

> > happens, you cannot fall. You have reached your

> destination and no

> > further efforts are required. Until that moment

> comes, constant

> > sadhana is required.

>

> //unquote//

>

> Chris prabhuji:

>

> Many teachers in the neo advaitin movement do their

> pupils a disservice

> by telling them no effort is needed. Its a

> misinterpretation; no effort

> is necessary when you abide as Self, but when you

> get pulled out by

> vasanas effort is again much needed.

>

> bhaskar :

>

> A jnAni (jnAnanishTa) does not accrue any vAsana-s

> nor any residual

> vAsana-s & its fruits can have influence over him.

> Since his jnAna

> sublates the very notion of doership & enjoyership

> (katrutva & bhOktrutva

> bhAva) he will be established completely in the

> secondless nature of his

> true svarUpa. So, there is no question of falling

> back nor there is a

> trouble of pulling of vAsana-s for him.

>

> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

> bhaskar

>

_________

ALL-NEW Messenger - all new features - even more fun!

http://uk.messenger.

January 16, 2005

--- av krshnan <avkrshnan wrote:

> it takes a few re-births for a

> person to progress from one chakra to the next

> higher one.

Shree av Krshnan, don't you think you made the same statement on some

advaitin list in your last birth, and then before the last...

The point is, it it better to resole that Lord has given me a last great

chance to evolve myself and then go with that resolution, to achieve the

highest, leaving the rest on His sholders. If we fail, it is still a

great success. 'swalpam alpasya dharmasya .. ' Even a small effort in

that direction takes us a long way (in your terminology many chakras).

It may be better to assume that I may not get this chance of human birth

agian and let me go with whatever resouces or vasana-s I have with full

commitment that I can, once I am convinced that this is the highest that

one desires, rather than worrying about I am not Ramana or Nisargadatta

maharaj, or fisher girl born in Kerala. Evey saint was ignorant before

and every ignorant is potential saint in future. The question is how

much committed you are to your goal (mumukshutvam).

It is your resolution and commitment NOW and HERE (i haiva) that makes

the difference, in spite of your vaasanas. Just dump all your vaasanas

on His lap and then forget about them. I donot think He minds. He will

polish them, neutralize them and give them back to you as ornaments to

decorate yourself whenever you are going out into the world.

Hari OM

sadananda

=====

What you have is destiny and what you do with what you have is self-effort.

Future destiny is post destiny modified by your present action. You are not only

the prisoner of your past but master of your future. - Swami Chinmayananda

January 16, 2005

Namste:

Further what sadananda has said there is a wonderful quotation

from "aShTaavakra giitaa" that goes a little bit further -

vij~naate saaxipuruShe paramaatmani ceshvare |

nairaashye bandhamoxe ca na cintaamuktaye mama |

Meaning - Once haing realized the significance of "saaxi puruSha", a

real J~naani does not even have the desire (kaamanaa) for moxa either.

However until then 'swalpam alpasya dharmasya .. ' methodology

remains the operative principle.

Regards,

Dr. Yadu

January 16, 2005

Namaste Bhaskar Prabhuji

Humble praNAms Sri Sridhar prabhuji

Hare Krishna

Sridhar prabhuji:

> no effort

> > is necessary when you abide as Self, but when you get pulled out by

> > vasanas effort is again much needed.

just to re-iterate, this statement above peratins to an aspirant not a

jnani.

bhaskar :

Since Chris prabhuji has also subsequently confirmed that it is about

aspirants...I admit that I mistook the above statement.

Sridhar prabhuji:

Further I believe this very well describes the difference between

'kevala nirvikalpa samadhi' and 'sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi. From the

former state which belongs to an aspirant there is always a re-entry

into the materialistic world orbit due to vasana pulls etc.

bhaskar :

In anyway, it is not about patanjali's saMprajnatha or asamprajnatha

samAdhi that which will be gained through human effort by stilling the mind

etc. (chitta vrutti nirOdha) ..It will be interesting to note that shankara

talks about samAdhi only in the terms of vikalpa-varjitA (kindly refer

shankara's commentary on gIta bhAshya II chapter about *stiTha prajna).

But no way we can believe that shankara talks about *kEvala nirvikalpa

samAdhi* which is closely associated with achalatva (inertness) of the

body...Here samAdhi does not mean achala or kEvala nirvikalpa or nirbIja or

asamprajnatha samAdhi as we find in patanjalis astAnga yoga after dhAraNa &

dhyAna prabhuji. Since the term *samAdhi* closely related to patanjali's

ashtAnga yOga, I had to bring-in yOga shAstra here.

Sridhar prabhuji:

However, I have also read Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa say that a jnani

even after attaining realization may retain a thin veil of ego to

serve the world. One example he would give is that Narada retained a

little of the ego of devotion. He himself claimed to have thin veil of

ego which he called the ego which is servant of the lord .

bhaskar :

I am not able to understand jnAni's *retention* here!! We do have seen the

jnAni's vyavahAra but that is through bhAdita jnAna (sublated knowledge of

prapaNcha astitva) How can he *retain* any sort of *ego* or *aham* when his

realisation completely annihilates the ahaMkAra & mamakAra?? I think Sri

Ramakrishna paramahaMsa talking about kEvala nirvikalpa samAdhi above which

has been attained through human effort (puruSha tantra)..I think only a

kEvala nirvikalpa samAdhi holder can come back to empirical state by saying

"I want "rasagulla-s" or " I want water " etc. etc. Since his erstwhile

state of samAdhi also attained from his effort, he can put *more effort* to

come back to vyavahAra by clinging to mundane material objects. Whereas a

true Atma jnAni intuitively realises that there is no *aham* or jIva bhAva

at all at any point of time.

Thanks Bhaskarji

Many namaskarams to all

Sridhar

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

January 17, 2005

Namaste All.

Reference

advaitin/message/25739

Shree Bhaskar :

>I am not able to understand jnAni's *retention*

>here!! We do have seen the

>jnAni's vyavahAra but that is through bhAdita jnAna

>(sublated knowledge of

>prapaNcha astitva) How can he *retain* any sort of

>*ego* or *aham* when his

>realisation completely annihilates the ahaMkAra &

>mamakAra?? I think Sri Ramakrishna paramahaMsa

>talking about kEvala nirvikalpa samAdhi above which

>has been attained through human effort (puruSha

>tantra)..I think only a

>kEvala nirvikalpa samAdhi holder can come back to

>empirical state by saying

>"I want "rasagulla-s" or " I want water " etc. etc.

> Since his erstwhile

>state of samAdhi also attained from his effort, he

>can put *more effort* to

>come back to vyavahAra by clinging to mundane

>material objects. Whereas a

>true Atma jnAni intuitively realises that there is

>no *aham* or jIva bhAva

>at all at any point of time.

-------------------

This is a wonderful indeed.

Samadhi itself must be effortless.

If Samadhi were a product of effort, then it must end

at some point of time- It then follows that one will

come out of it gradually anyway and hence no effort

will be needed on the return journey.

It also further implies that everyone who gets into

Samadhi will have to come out of it eventually.

This is clearly not the case.

Effort then, must be needed only in the initial stages

so as to get into effortless state.

If Samadhi then happens effortlessly, it also implies

that the return journey must also be effortless, if

there is one.

Some pure ego without attachment (like a line drawn in

water) comes into play here.

Please refer 'Gospel of SriRamaKrishna', especially

pages 152,500,829.

Further, if we stand near a roller-coaster ride

and start wondering as to from where people will enter

into it and from where they will exit out of it,

certainly is okay to understand the preliminaries

standing on the ground, but getting onto the ride

itself may be more fun.

With Love and Kind Regards,

Raghava

______________________

India Matrimony: Find your partner online.

January 17, 2005

praNAm Sri Raghava prabhuji

Hare Krishna

Thanks for your posting on effortless samAdhi & related matters. I agree

with it . I was just trying to share my understanding on Sri Sridhar

prabhuji's kEvala nirvikalpa samAdhi & jnAni's retention of jnAna ahaM,

dAsa ahaM etc. wherein some sort of *individual* will involved (vaiyuktika

aham pratyaya bhAva). If you are implying that the *effortless* samAdhi is

nothing but Atma jnAna or samyag jnAna of the jnAni as embedded in shruti-s

then I dont have any issue as you can call *that* state by any name (yEkam

sat viprA bahudA vadaAnti)...

But this samyag jnAna cannot be equated with patanjali's eightfold yOga

system & resultant asaMprajnatha or nirvikalpa samAdhi. The samAdhi that

has been attained through forceful suppression & oppression of thoughts

(chitta vrutti nirOdha) by doing some rigorous praNAyAma & haTha yOgic

practices. No need to mention this is not at all shankara's baby.

Shankara never ever endorses this type of unscrupulous practices to realise

our own svarUpa. But unfortunately in the subdivisions of shankara's

advaita vEdAnta such as bhAmati & vivaraNa schools one can find doctrines

like " the experience of advaita is possible only in nirvikalpa samAdhi

since the jnAni in other states still continues to perceive the manifold

world which is made up of avidyAkruta mAya" etc. Hence, these schools &

some major prakaraNa grantha-s in the name of shankara (for example vivEka

chudAmaNi) giving undue importance on attaining & remaining in *nirvikalpa

samAdhi*. This is really a matter of concern for a shankara saMpradAya

follower. Shankara deals with this issue in bruhadAraNyaka upanishad maNtra

Atma arE drushtavyO, shrotavyO, maNtavyO, nidhidhyAsitavyaH... Shankara

here & in sUtra bhAshya clearly defines what is vastu tantra & what is

puruSha tantra jnAna. paramArtha jnAna is vastu tantra & cannot be

modified through human effort whereas sitting inert with a suppressed mind

activity in samAdhi for somany hours/days is purusha tantra wherein we

have options like 'can do it, can not do it or do it in other way'.

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

January 18, 2005

Namaste Shree Bhaskar Ji.

and Namaste All.

Refer:

advaitin/message/25745

This is a wonderful post again and very educative.

As you stated, 'effortless samAdhi' and 'Atma jnAna'

must be synonymous.

On patanjali's eightfold yOga system & resultant

asaMprajnatha or nirvikalpa samAdhi:

> The samAdhi that has been attained through

> forceful suppression & oppression of thoughts

>(chitta vrutti nirOdha) by doing some rigorous

> praNAyAma & haTha yOgic practices.

I must wait to read on this subject to comment more on

this. There may be a misconception about patanjali's

point here.

But then, discounting the whole of 'nirvikalpa

samAdhi' and 'vivEka chudAmaNi' just because they do

not fit into one framework may offer so much less

diversity in the all encompassing advaita.

Krishna mentions in Gita about dhyana-yoga:Gita

Ch.6:10 to 15. 6:15 culminates in nirvana or what

others call as 'nirvikalpa samAdhi'.

Love and Best Regards,

Raghava

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January 18, 2005

"When the mind and Prana, becoming one, merge into Buddhi and through

it in the `Chidakasa' or knowledge space' in the heart, then the

state is called samadhi, when one will not be conscious of his body,

hunger and other perceptions. Such inner absorption in which

mentation or mode of mind as subject object relationship is still

present is called Savikalpa samadhi. When the `I' or ego

consciousness is totally lost, and it becomes modeless awareness of

Self in Self, that state of Contentless Consciousness is known as

Nirvikalpa Samadhi. This can be attained only after assiduous

practice in many lives. However the latent and residual impressions

or samskaras of the practice of this discipline in the past births,

if present, will be evident to the aspirants themselves."

"There is an old adage (in Tamil) that one should cultivate in the

proper season. Similarly, when a Jiva, who after being caught up in

the whirl of samsara through countless births, has at last overcome

the effect of his sins by goof deeds and as a result of his

accumulated Punya or merit, he comes into contact with a Sadguru, he

should seek his constant company, devote himself to his loving

service. When the Master casts his benevolent look and showers his

Grace on him, he is blessed with absorption of mind and Prana in the

contemplation of Brahman, longevity, freedom from ailments and robust

health. When he attains them, he overcomes the separate consciousness

of ego or jiva and in the Unitive Consciousness, beholds (the Self in

all beings and) all beings in the Self. All distinctions and

diversity disappear. Duality vanishes without leaving any trace of it

and he is led to the highest awareness of Non-duality that all is

verily Brahman."

Cdr B vaidyanthan

January 19, 2005

Namaste Shree Bhaskar Ji.

and Namaste All.

praNAms Sri Raghava prabhuji

Hare Krishna

Raghava prabhuji:

I must wait to read on this subject to comment more on

this. There may be a misconception about patanjali's

point here.

bhaskar :

Yes there may be some misconceptions about pAtanjali's yOga shAstra from my

side as I have not studied it in detail (I've only translated version of

yOga sUtra-s published by RK mission)..But one thing is clear prabhuji,

shankara categorically refuted both kapila's sAnkhya & pAtanjali's yOga

schools in sUtra bhAshya.

Raghava prabhuji:

But then, discounting the whole of 'nirvikalpa

samAdhi' and 'vivEka chudAmaNi' just because they do

not fit into one framework may offer so much less

diversity in the all encompassing advaita.

bhaskar :

I am not devaluating the nirvikAla samAdhi nor vivEka chudAmaNi prabhuji,

Just I am trying to convey *nirvikalpa samAdhi* is not the pre-requisite

for attaining advaita paramArtha jnAna as you can find in vivEka

chudAmaNI..Having said this, I do admit that pAtanjala yOga sUtra-s are

sacred & indispensable for the aspirants of yOga school..vivEka chudAmaNi,

though carries strange stand on sAdhana part & ultimate knowledge of

advaita...it is a *must read* for all advaita vEdAnta followers..Because

one can find ample practical instructions on the puritication of mind.

Raghava prabhuji:

Krishna mentions in Gita about dhyana-yoga:Gita Ch.6:10 to 15. 6:15

culminates in nirvana or what others call as 'nirvikalpa samAdhi'.

bhaskar :

Is it *dhyAna yOga* you are referring here prabhuji?? shankara explains

here yOga as described in gIta is not that of popularly known *yoga* it is

*adhyAtma yOga* (the yOga of Atman) which ultimately leads to saMyag jnAna.

I think the verse, *suhrunmitra udAsIna madhyastha dvEshya bandhushu, sAdhu

shvapicha pApEshu samabhuddir vishishyate* also appearing in this chapter

only (not sure..pls. check) it is clearly a definition of Atma jnAni

prabhuji, it is not about the person who is sitting inertly in a nirvikalpa

samAdhi..The process of meging the senses in the mind and the mind in all

its aspects in Atman as Sri vaidyanatha prabhuji said in the same thread

reasults in realization of the Atman. So, according to shankara the term

yOga does not imply pAtanjala yOga it is adhyAtma yOga which is intended

for those who would realise their true nature as taught in vEdAnta. As I

dont have the text of gIta here in office, I cannot comment more on the

gIta verses quoted by you above..I'll check these verses & corresponding

shankara commentary on it. If possible I shall share my understanding with

you.

Love and Best Regards,

Raghava

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

January 19, 2005

Namaste All.

Reference:

advaitin/message/25752

Shree BhaskarJi had conveyed that he would get back

after checking the Gita verses 6:10-15.

Here are further thoughts.

Gita mentions 4 types of methods for atma-jnana and

dhyAna yOga is one of them, as all of us know.

It is also clear to all that, in all methods the

central focus is on the yOga of Atman and not anything

else.

With the basic ground clear as above, let us move

forward.

6:10 starts with preparation and the method goes on

till 6:13. 6:14 gives the idea of 'Atma' (Me) and 6:15

culminates with nirvana.

To answer about why possibly 'nirvikalpa

samAdhi' and 'vivEka chudAmaNi'were discouraged:- if

greater importance is given to 6:10 thru 6:13 in

practice disregarding 6:14 leading a person nowhere,

then, this must be a reason perhaps they were

discouraged against excessive importance.

Further, any dharmic method leading to atma-jnana must

satisfy one basic introspection:- is progress made

from a previous moment to now ?

Love and best regards,

Raghava

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January 19, 2005

"Gita mentions 4 types of methods for atma-jnana and dhyAna yOga is one of

them, as all of us know.... With the basic ground clear as above, let us

move forward."

Advaitic interpretation of Gita does not accept dhyAna yOga as an

independent means to atma-jnana. As per this tradition Gita mentions only

one method for liberation that is atma-jnana and two life-styles to pursue

atma-jnana viz. that of a karma yogi and of a sannyasi. (lokEsmin dvividhA

niSThA...)

"To answer about why possibly 'nirvikalpa samAdhi' and 'vivEka

chudAmaNi'were discouraged:- if

greater importance is given to 6:10 thru 6:13 in practice disregarding 6:14

leading a person nowhere,

then, this must be a reason perhaps they were discouraged against excessive

importance."

A simpler explanation could be that vivaraNa school is considered truer

representation of Shankara siddhanta than BhAmati. vivEka chudAmani is

decidely BhAmati.

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January 19, 2005

praNAms Sanjay prabhuji

Hare Krishna

SV prabhuji:

Advaitic interpretation of Gita does not accept dhyAna yOga as an

independent means to atma-jnana. As per this tradition Gita mentions only

one method for liberation that is atma-jnana and two life-styles to pursue

atma-jnana viz. that of a karma yogi and of a sannyasi. (lokEsmin dvividhA

niSThA...)

bhaskar :

Yes you are right prabhuji..there is no other way but to realise our true

svarUpa through Atma jnAna (nAnyaH panTha vidyatEyanAya)...Krishna himself

says in gIta that there is nothing can be compared to jnAna (na hi jnAnEna

sadrushaM)..No doubt, there are other ways too prescribed in gIta...as we

all know the other name for gIta is *sAdhana prasthAna* Hence, one can find

lot of spiritual instructions in this smruti text..but aspirants should

know, karma, bhakti etc. are required to prepare our mind (chitta

shuddhyarte / mental purification) for the highest knowledge.

SV prabhuji:

A simpler explanation could be that vivaraNa school is considered truer

representation of Shankara siddhanta than BhAmati. vivEka chudAmani is

decidely BhAmati.

bhaskar :

I am afraid both bhAmati & vivaraNa schools have contributed in their own

way to dilute the core teachings of shankara... in my earlier mail I have

said that in subdivisions of advaita school there are some doctrines

floating that *advaita's paramArtha jnAna can be attained ONLY in

nirvikalpa samAdhi since even after realising the non-dual Atman jnAni

continues to perceive the world in other states* & endorses the view of

vidEha mukti because jnAni will be suffering from prArabhda karma phala

even after the dawn of knowledge...Only after the shedding of this mortal

coil, a jnAni can realise his true secondless nature not before that* etc.

etc. These strange stands on advaita philosophy are basically from vivaraNa

school of prakAshAtma yati who has written commentary on paNchapAdika

prasthAna. No need to mention these are all foreign to shuddha shankara

vEdAnta...

My parama guruji H.H. Sri SatchidAnandEndra Saraswathi, in his master piece

*vEdAnta prakriya pratyabhigna* discusses elaborately these issues...those

who are interested kindly do look into it.

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

January 20, 2005

Namaste All.

References:-

advaitin/message/25756

advaitin/message/25759

Raghava:-

>>"Gita mentions 4 types of methods for atma-jnana

>>and dhyAna yOga is one of them

Shree Sanjay-Ji/Shree Bhaskar-Ji:-

>Advaitic interpretation of Gita does not accept

>dhyAna yOga as an independent means to atma-jnana.

>As per this tradition Gita mentions only

>one method for liberation that is atma-jnana

>and two life-styles to pursue

>atma-jnana viz. that of a karma yogi and

>of a sannyasi. (lokEsmin dvividhA niSThA...)

Raghava:-

It is alright. If the tradition does not accept,

I fully respect and appreciate the same.

I can add nothing more and thanks for clarifying.

In the spirit of all-encompassing advaita,

and for those who may be interested to know,

I am of the opinion that

the 4 methods described in the gita

do not conflict with the 2 ways of life-styles.

atma-jnana ---> 2 Life Styles

--> 4 methods

[depending on vasanas]

-->

Further that, dhyAna yOga that is

conveyed in Gita 6:10-15 is one complete set

for atma-jnana and is one among the 4 methods.

He/She who understands one of them understands all 4.

Love and Kind regards,

Raghava

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January 20, 2005

praNAm Sri Raghava prabhuji

Hare Krishna

Raghava prabhuji:-

It is alright. If the tradition does not accept,

I fully respect and appreciate the same.

I can add nothing more and thanks for clarifying.

bhaskar :

But prabhuji shankara clarifies why karma & fruits accrued from it cannot

be the direct means to Atma jnAna...Again, puruSha taNtra jnAna comes

here...you can pick any karma, you can do it (kartuM), you may not do it

(akartuM) or you may opt to do it in some other way (anyaTha kartuM) Hence

vEdAnga vihita karma & its fruits depend on karta (doer)..whereas Atma

jnAna is purely vastu tantra where we donot have the option of realising it

in our *own* way!! it will be revealed on its own after intuitively

negating the anAtma vastu.

Raghava prabhuji:

In the spirit of all-encompassing advaita,

bhaskar :

prabhuji kindly clarify what exactly this *all encompassing advaita* oflate

I am hearing this terminology a lot!!...If the philosophy of advaita is

encompassing *all* then what is the need for shankara to refute bhEdAbhEda,

nyAya-vaishEshika, sAnkya-yOga schools?? Why shankara had to vehemently

refute karma-jnAna samucchaya vAdins in gIta bhAshya itself if the

karma=jnAna?? Why bAdarAyaNa had to write vEdAnta sUtra as against karma

pradhAna dharma sUtra-s?? Yes, ofcourse, ultimately ALL is ONE..but that

does not anyway mean all schools are jnAna pradhAna & advaita.

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

January 20, 2005

Namaste All.

Shree Bhaskar-Ji stated:-

But prabhuji shankara clarifies why karma & fruits

accrued from it cannot

be the direct means to Atma jnAna...Again, puruSha

taNtra jnAna comes

here...you can pick any karma, you can do it (kartuM),

you may not do it

(akartuM) or you may opt to do it in some other way

(anyaTha kartuM) Hence

vEdAnga vihita karma & its fruits depend on karta

(doer)..whereas Atma

jnAna is purely vastu tantra where we donot have the

option of realising it

in our *own* way!! it will be revealed on its own

after intuitively

negating the anAtma vastu.

Raghava:-

(point#a)

It is agreed that Atma jnAna is not an

effect produced by karma+fruits.

Having established this, all of those associated

with it (kartuM,akartuM,anyaTha kartuM etc) also drop.

>As Shree Bhaskar says, Atma jnAna will be revealed

>on its own after intuitively negating the

>anAtmavastu.

While negation is an act, as stated,

revealation is not.

Now, concentrate on negating the anAtma vastu.

What is important here is the negation of

anAtma and not how.

As long as negation is done in a dharmic way, it does

not matter how it is negated because of (point#a)

having no bearing on Atma-JnAna.

This negation, the Gita says, can be done in 4 ways

and dhyAna yOga is one of them.

If you had concluded on (a) yourself, why would you

reject something that comes under the purview of (a),

prabhuji, while this neti-neti method of dhyAna yOga

is used to negate anAtma vastu thereby facilitating

Atma jnAna.

>Shree Bhaskar:-

>Kindly clarify what exactly this

>*all encompassing advaita*

Raghava:-

Yes, certainly. I will clarify later on. Right now, it

will only confuse more with neti-neti.

With Love,Regards,

Raghava

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