Is there 'light' in Enlightenment? (Sept. 03 discussion topic)

[Guest guest]

Namaste Nairji,

 

You said:

" As I see it, most, if not all, our actions are reactions. The

positiveness or otherwise of an action will differ according to

dharma. What is positive for a Hindu might be negative for one

belonging to or following another faith. In the circumstances, isn't

it better to understand sin as any action that alienates you from

your real nature (Courtesy: Sw. Chinmayanandaji)."

 

As you rightly said, Dharma is universal. A true kshetriya will not incur pApa

from the battle field. That is the universal law applicable to everyone. May it

be a Hindu, Christian or follower of any religion. Nairji, I am sorry I am

comfortable with my earlier definition. We cannot sin. We can only do an action

which creates sin as the reaction. So the right way is renunciation in action,

and not abstaining from actions resulting in sin.

 

 

You said:

" The best thing then is to take recourse to karmayoga which prescribes the

performance of non-binding actions. Arjuna was advised just that on

the eve of his setting out to kill his own cousins. "

 

You are right. Only the actions without doership has the centrifugal force to

help us break free of this action-reaction cycle of samsAra.

 

sukhadukhE samE kritvA lAbhAlAbhau jayAjayau |

tato udhAya yujyasva naivam pApamavApsyasi || - Gita 2.38

 

[Pleasure and pain, gain and loss, victory and defeat - considering these to be

alike, prepare yourself for battle. Thus you will incur no sin.]

 

Here the Lord is asking Arjuna just to act. As you can see, the Lord is assuring

Arjuna that his action will not produce any sin. So the sin is just in the

result of an action, not in the action per se.

 

 

 

 

"Just a thought."

 

Thought provoking as usual !

 

Hari Om

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

advaitin, kaushic kalyan

<kaushickalyanraman> wrote:

> pujya Ram chandraji,

> Firstly i thank you for your knowledgable advice . i also accept

your suggestions to write in a more formal language.i am sorry guess

i am still young and dint realise that this was a more serious forum.

>

> when u say atma discards body n accepts another body i have doubt

here.

> when atma is supposed to be aware then why does it need to take

body.

>

> i also have a doubt regarding the statement that birth and death

are but products of ignorance.

>

---------------------------

 

My dear Kaushic Kalyan

 

God bless you. May all the Vedic blessings of the religious

scriptures be on you.

 

First let me congratulate you on your interest in spiritual matters.

I notice that you are a student in Singapore University and you are

climbing the way up the career ladder in worldly life. Please take

care that your interest in spiritual matters does not swallow the

time needed for your studies. Allot only a specific short period of

time every day for the indulgence in this `curiosity to learn about

the SELF'.

Having said that I would like to suggest some reading for you;

because, in my opinion, you seem to be asking too many questions too

soon. First there has to be some reading of the basics. Obviously

you already know some technical terms. Build upon them. There are

some excellent books available. The Ramakrishna Mission for example

will sell you books online. Nikhilananda's Hinduism is one such. I

can suggest many more. But I don't want to overwhelm you by too many

book suggestions.

 

However, if you are prepared to be disciplined by not being carried

away by your spiritual interest, away from your studies, I can

suggest to you a large number of pages from my website which has

been specially written for students like you who want to know. At

BITS Pilani where I was a Mathematics Professor I used to conduct

classes for students on Spirituality and most of my website is what

I told them in answer to their questions and what I would like to

have told them if I had more time! So it will be very useful to you,

if you care, and, if you have the time, that is. Here are a few of

them.

 

 

An introduction, though technically on the advanced side, is in

http://www.geocities.com/profvk/gohitvip/22.html

It has also got the meaning of the Gayatri in it.

 

Introduction to the prerequistes for a spiritual journey is

contained in

 

http://www.geocities.com/profvk/gohitvip/23.html

 

Idol worship is discussed in

http://www.geocities.com/profvk/gohitvip/1202.html

 

You may have a more systematic account in

http://www.geocities.com/profvk/HNG/basicsbhakti.html

 

This discusses the basics of Hindu Religious Worship. This is in

fact a reproduction of a whole chapter from my book on `Hinduism for

the next generation'

 

Focussing on the three qualities of God, namely, Transcendence,

Immanence and Perfection, the following is a complete essay on `The

Absolute as it is'

 

http://www.geocities.com/profvk/gohitvip/34.html

 

Karma yoga is discussed in

 

http://www.geocities.com/profvk/gohitvip/24.html

 

under the title 'The yajna methodology for detachment'.

 

I am tempted to suggest you many more pages. But try reading these.

Keep a hard copy of some works of Swami Vivekananda on your shelf

and every time you are bored or tired with your routine work, read a

few pages from those works of the great Messiah.

 

I wish you good luck in your endeavours, both spiritual and material.

 

With love,

Yours, profvk

[Guest guest]

namaste proffesorji,

thanks for your filial advice i indeed have a lot to learn but one life is too

short to master evrything. i remember the story of saint bharadwaja.

who according to indra had mastered only a fistful of knowledge while a mountain

lay infront of him unlearned. i am happy that i am spared of the pain of going

through various scriptures and ending up confused. since i have knowledgable

people like you to guide me.

i also want to ask ,

are you the same profvk who writes in ambaa.org.

as far as my doubts are concerned these are doubts i have been nourishing and

feeding upon for quite some years . neither my parents nor my grandparents or

any one known to me could answer . so they have been in my mind for quite

sometime.

i usually find philosophy books to difficult to comrehend wonder what purpose is

served by writing in a language understood by so few when the goal of philosophy

it spread knowledge,

i did read one book of vivekananda though the name i dont remember now.

it was simple to understand but i was quite young then i dint get much of what

he said so i guess it fell off my mind.

i also read the kanchi seers book the english version ofcourse . but what

greatly puzzled me was there was more relegion in it than philosophy.

but it was quite interesting.

apart from these crux of my limited understanding came from long hours of

thinking and arguing with my atheist friends they were they were like a mirror

in which my thoughts were reflected.

unfortunately my library at sing university does not have these books and books

here are expensive so i guess i have to be content with web sites at present.

thanks a lot everyone for advicing me.

i shall follow them to the best of my abilities.

hopefully i succeed in resolving my doubts .

as a matter of fact proffesor i find quite afew parralels between philosophy and

mathematics and physics i mean sometimes they look and sound quite similar.

again thanks a lot everyone ,

 

i hope you wouldnt mind if i ask u a doubt

in gita there is an oft quoted phrase

atmaiva atmano bandhu atmaiva vipiratmanaha.

 

how is this possible

because as many here have mentioned atma is supposed to be in state of complete

knowledge.

how then can it be its own enemy and friend.

i thought this sloka meant that desires come from atma

and that was the cause of its coming into material world.

now that birth and death are but errors of perception

please explain what it means to me.

i thank you all for your patience and benevolence to entertain my doubts .

 

 

 

 

k kaushic

engineering year 1

national university of singapore

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Namaste Ranjeetji.

 

You cannot be sorry when you are comfortable. So, there is nothing to

be sorry about. I am joking.

 

You said:

 

"So the right way is renunciation in action, and not abstaining from

actions resulting in sin."

 

Who said one has to abstain from actions?

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

_____________________________

 

 

In advaitin, "Ranjeet Sankar" <thefinalsearch>

wrote:

> As you rightly said, Dharma is universal. A true kshetriya will not

incur pApa from the battle field. That is the universal law

applicable to everyone. May it be a Hindu, Christian or follower of

any religion. Nairji, I am sorry I am comfortable with my earlier

definition. We cannot sin. We can only do an action which creates sin

as the reaction. So the right way is renunciation in action, and not

abstaining from actions resulting in sin.

[Guest guest]

Kaushicji

 

pls go through this web page

http://tinyurl.com/lqqu

 

i think this web page is fairly good to clear most of your doubts.

 

regards

vishal

 

advaitin, kaushic kalyan

<kaushickalyanraman> wrote:

> pujya Ram chandraji,

> Firstly i thank you for your knowledgable advice . i also accept

your suggestions to write in a more formal language.i am sorry guess

i am still young and dint realise that this was a more serious forum.

>

> when u say atma discards body n accepts another body i have doubt

here.

> when atma is supposed to be aware then why does it need to take

body.

>

> i also have a doubt regarding the statement that birth and death

are but products of ignorance.

> does this statement imply the non existence of a material world.

> i mean i find this statement impying a world very similar to the

one described by the movie" the Matrix".

> please throw some light here.

> i also have a doubt when one tells to read scriptures to further

greater understanding.

> firstly,

> how can we be certain that scriptures have not been doctored.

> secondly,

> since i am not very fluent with sanskrit i have to rely on

translation and i find most translation as a reflection and

justification of the authors views on it.which i feel is useless.

> lastly,

> i in my ignorance can misinterpret or find a justification to my

own existing views of life .

>

> the only thing i feel that can lead me to knowledge is by

discussion with the learned and by following a guru.

> but alas to be devoted to guru and to do seva is but out of

coontext i have to lead a normal life in this material world.

> so my only recourse is to forums like these .

>

> i also have a doubt regarding karma . what place does karma hold in

advaita.

> in scriptures mahabharat to be precise when krishna is killed by

the hunter . the hunter is remorseful n says he has commited a sin by

killing krishna to which krishna laughs and reveals his self as rama

and the hunter remembers himself as angada . he then says during his

rama avatar he sinned by killing vali against rules of comduct and

even he is unescapable from law of karma.

> can u throw light on it please.

> i also read devi mahatyam an english version of course in that

they prtray devi as the absolute truth,

> how can that be true giving the fact we are ourselves sampurna

jnanam.

> also

> how can one realise that we ourselves are jnanam.

> is it by mantra sadhanam or by logical arguments as proposed by the

those belonging to the school of nyaya.

> please throw light here too.

>

> also adi shankaracharya who is supposed to have put advaita firmly

on indias spiritual map wrote a lot of sastras on devi. if he was

aware of himself as truth i wonder what purpose do these serve.

> also

> in the various matam of shankaracharya we find more idol worship of

various gods n goddesses for what purposes are these done i find them

highly disturbing

> for as a begginer when i look at advaita i find it escapist and

totally contradictory to normal life.

> dvaitam is comparably more easy.

> so is islamic and christian theology to an extent.

>

> i also have a doubt regarding SELf how is self Evident. how should

i search about it. will mantropasana help because i have been

inducted into it. i chant chandi n ganapathi mantram alaong waith

gayathri.

>

> please advice me as to how to go about realising self.

> i find it difficult to accept birth and death are logical errors

because we have so many rite like shraddam for dead .

> why then perform them if there is no dead.

> why is hinduism so confusing.

> it is a like a well cooked pack of noodles can figure out where it

starts and where it ends.

> when u say faith will give you deliverance i agree with you for i

can see no other way.

> i hope i have not been impudent .

> i am just a beginner and looking for someone to help me in advaita.

>

>

>

> k kaushic

> engineering year 1

> national university of singapore

>

>

>

> Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE

Messenger

>

>

[Guest guest]

thanx mr vishal

it certainly is an excellent site

 

 

 

k kaushic

engineering year 1

national university of singapore

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

advaitin, kaushic kalyan

<kaushickalyanraman> wrote:

> namaste proffesorji,

> thanks

>

> i hope you wouldnt mind if i ask u a doubt

> in gita there is an oft quoted phrase

> atmaiva atmano bandhu atmaiva vipiratmanaha.

>

> how is this possible

> because as many here have mentioned atma is supposed to be in

state of complete knowledge.

> how then can it be its own enemy and friend.

> i thought this sloka meant that desires come from atma

> and that was the cause of its coming into material world.

> now that birth and death are but errors of perception

> please explain what it means to me.

> i thank you all for your patience and benevolence to entertain my

doubts .

> k kaushic

> engineering year 1

> national university of singapore

>

-----------------------

 

Dear Kaushik

 

Please see

advaitin/message/8495

 

and succeding posts in that thread.

 

PraNAms to all advaitins

profvk

[Guest guest]

Namaste all.

 

The month of September 03 is on its last leg. I wouldn't like to see

the Light in Enlightenment extinguished so fast. To keep the light

on, therefore, here is some seemingly preposterous thought.

Physicists like Sadaji and Shri Ananda Wood-ji might like to pull me

up here as apparently, as layman, I am venturing out into lands they

are more familiar with.

 

I notice that Sadaji has not uttered a single direct word on the

question of L.I.E. There is, therefore, the fond hope that, perhaps,

this would have him pulled into some brainstorming.

 

As usual, this preposterous thought occurred to me on the toilet

commode and I wanted to shrug it off. But, it doesn't want to leave

that easily.

 

In discussing the Theory of Relativity, it is stated that the

relativistic mass of a particle tends to *infinity* as its velocity

approaches the speed of light. That is an unimaginable situation!

 

Attaining the velocity of light is very hypothetical. Nobody would

be able to do that. In that sense, the speed of light is a limiting

factor in our vyAvaharika, which we cannot hope to surmount or

surpass.

 

It is hypothetically stated that time stops at the speed of light.

That is virtual eventlessness. Hypothetically, therefore, if I am

traveling at the speed of light, the world should end for me in the

sense that I wouldn't have an *experience* of streaking through

space. Speed of light, therefore, kills time as well as space, as

time and space are interlinked as space-time continuum (AkAshA).

 

In our earlier discussions on L.I.E., thanks due to the enlightening

insights of Shri Wood-Ji on AkAshA, we almost concluded that light

known as prakAshA is the soul of AkAsha (space-time continuum).

Without prakAshA, there cannot be any creation. That means that

there cannot be any duality without prakAshA, or, in other words,

prakAshA is the Mother of duality! (AnEkakOti brahmAndajananI!).

 

Let us therefore ponder these questions:

 

(a) In Enlightenment known as Self-Realization, where duality is

effectively undone, are we virtually *becoming* prakAshA whereby

there is a cessation of apparent duality?

 

(b) Can we see Sankara's "prakAshOsmyaham" ecstasy here?

 

© Isn't *being* prakAshA the same as the hypothetical travel at

the velocity of light?

 

(d) Do we have a bridge here between science and advaita?

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003, V. Krishnamurthy wrote:

>

> My dear Kaushic Kalyan

>

> God bless you. May all the Vedic blessings of the religious

> scriptures be on you.

>

> First let me congratulate you on your interest in spiritual matters.

> I notice that you are a student in Singapore University and you are

> climbing the way up the career ladder in worldly life. Please take

> care that your interest in spiritual matters does not swallow the

> time needed for your studies. Allot only a specific short period of

> time every day for the indulgence in this `curiosity to learn about

> the SELF'.

>

> [...]

> I wish you good luck in your endeavours, both spiritual and material.

>

> With love,

> Yours, profvk

>

 

 

namaste.

 

This particular piece of advice caught my eye. I fully

agree with this advice for a young person, coming from

a person of the stature of profvk-ji who is both a

vayovr^iddhah and jnAnavr^iddhah and who has both worldly

and spiritual wisdom. I give the same advice to my children

whenever this matter comes up. Yet, I see an anamoly in that

piece of advice.

 

We (and I mean by we, the older persons who have taken

retirement from the materialistic world) have seen the world

in all its forms. We have participated in the materialistic

society and we are spurning it now and moving on to a spiritual

journey. Now, when we see our young children show interest in

spiritual jignAsa at a young age (which jignAsa we might not

have had when we were that age), we seem to caution them and

put them on path to a materialistic life.

 

Why do we do this ? (i) Is it because, inherently, we do not

have faith in our spiritual path ?, (ii) or do we want the

young ones to develop the spiritual interest only after they

succeed in material world ?, (iii) or, are we simply materialists ?

(iv) or, are we afraid in letting go of the materialistic world ?

 

I can understand our advice to chidren to study and settle in

life if they are going astray and without focus. But when a

young person shows interest in spiritual life (at the expense

of material life), why do we steer them to material life ?

 

This is not a criticism of profvk-ji's advice. But I am

interested in this as I face similar question(s) in my

interaction with young adults including my children.

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

--

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

This topic also is of interest in my life. I am a youngster(17). It is my

intention to dedicate my life to spiritual goals and religious service. I was

born here in the United States. The culture here does not support one who has

'lofty' spiritual goals or aspirations. Currently I am in the process of going

to an Ashram to take Sannyasa. My father and grandparents do not particularly

support my decision. They wish for me to attend university, etc. They have even

become hostile, to an extent, to my aspirations. I do not know how to convey to

them the deep experiences with God and Self I have had. I am at a loss on how to

communicate these deep experiences. They are also reluctant because we come from

a Western background and they don't know much about 'Hinduism'. My grandmother

even has said that I may go to hell for this.

 

I understand all their concerns and take them into consideration. But in my

heart I know this is the Kali Yuga. Adversion to spiritual life permeates all

through the world. We must take it in stride

 

Aum Shanti,

Shishya

 

>

> namaste.

>

> This particular piece of advice caught my eye. I fully

> agree with this advice for a young person, coming from

> a person of the stature of profvk-ji who is both a

> vayovr^iddhah and jnAnavr^iddhah and who has both worldly

> and spiritual wisdom. I give the same advice to my children

> whenever this matter comes up. Yet, I see an anamoly in that

> piece of advice.

>

> We (and I mean by we, the older persons who have taken

> retirement from the materialistic world) have seen the world

> in all its forms. We have participated in the materialistic

> society and we are spurning it now and moving on to a spiritual

> journey. Now, when we see our young children show interest in

> spiritual jignAsa at a young age (which jignAsa we might not

> have had when we were that age), we seem to caution them and

> put them on path to a materialistic life.

>

> Why do we do this ? (i) Is it because, inherently, we do not

> have faith in our spiritual path ?, (ii) or do we want the

> young ones to develop the spiritual interest only after they

> succeed in material world ?, (iii) or, are we simply materialists ?

> (iv) or, are we afraid in letting go of the materialistic world ?

>

> I can understand our advice to chidren to study and settle in

> life if they are going astray and without focus. But when a

> young person shows interest in spiritual life (at the expense

> of material life), why do we steer them to material life ?

>

> This is not a criticism of profvk-ji's advice. But I am

> interested in this as I face similar question(s) in my

> interaction with young adults including my children.

>

> Regards

> Gummuluru Murthy

> --

[Guest guest]

advaitin, Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy@m...>

wrote:

>

> On Tue, 23 Sep 2003, V. Krishnamurthy wrote:

>

> >

>

> Why do we do this ? (i) Is it because, inherently, we do not

> have faith in our spiritual path ?, (ii) or do we want the

> young ones to develop the spiritual interest only after they

> succeed in material world ?, (iii) or, are we simply materialists ?

> (iv) or, are we afraid in letting go of the materialistic world ?

>

> I can understand our advice to chidren to study and settle in

> life if they are going astray and without focus. But when a

> young person shows interest in spiritual life (at the expense

> of material life), why do we steer them to material life ?

>

> This is not a criticism of profvk-ji's advice. But I am

> interested in this as I face similar question(s) in my

> interaction with young adults including my children.

>

> Regards

> Gummuluru Murthy

> -

 

Mamaste, Murthygaru and others.

Yes, you are right. My answer however to all your questions (i),

(ii), (iii) and (iv) is an emphatic 'No'. I do want, just as you,

our youngsters to get interest in matters of spirituality. No doubt

about that. But my answering that way to Kaushik Kalyan came from

certain experiences of mine at BITS, Pilani, where I used to teach

Gita to students in the evening times. Lots of students used to

attend these classes, purely voluntarily. A few of them, really a

few of them, have come to me now and then and surprised me with the

following question or something very similar to it:

"Sir, Why should I study well? Is that not selfishness? Is it not

just a materialist objective, where I want to be one-up over my

classmate? Why should I be attached to my own self? I think I should

rightaway renounce everything and go and serve in the

villages ......."

 

It is at this point I began to realise that too early an injection

of philosophy may possibly (in some cases, only) result in a counter-

positive way whereby the student forgets his duties to his parents

who have sent him at great expense for an expensive education and in

the hope of a future career. So at this point I begin to explain to

him how he can still do his studies, at the same time following the

gita's teaching of non-attachment. Then I begin to speak to him

about the yajna attitude, whereby he dedicates all his actions to

his mother, and how he can do all his studies well, not because of

an attachment to his own self, but because that is the way he can

follow his God of his dedication, namely, his mother back home. ....

 

This is the background for my reaction to Kaushik. I am one with you

in your legitimate aspiration that youngsters should as early as

possible get the taste of spirituality, so that it survives with

them as long as they last!

 

praNAms to all advaitins

profvk