Guest guest Report post Posted June 7, 2001 Srimathe Ramanujaya namaha Dear Sri Sampath, This is absolutely false. The first and foremost scriptures for the parama vaidhika matham (the present Hinduism) is the vEdAs. No where in any of the vEdAs it is said that Sriman Narayanan worshipped any other Gods. There are a lot of verses upholding the Supremity of Sriman Narayanan. A very few examples are " divyO dEva ekO nArAyaNa :" (There is one and only one Divya dEva who is nArAyaNA) " AgniravamO dEvathAnAm, paramO VishNu :" (Amongst the dEvas, the lowest is Agni and the Supreme is Vishnu) (This obviously is a very good example that the claim of Vishnu worshipping other gods is false) "EkO ha vai nArAyaNa Aseeth, na brahmA nEsAna :" (There was [at the beginning] one and only one Existant who is nArAyaNa, not brahmA, not even Siva) Now the second line of pramANAs for us (for the followers of the vEdic religion) is the smruthis. The purport of the smruthis is to explain the sruthi or vEdas. In all the smruthis, for ex., manu, yAgnya valkya .. etc, (my knowledge of this is very less) nowhere it is claimed that Vishnu worshipped any other gods, The third line of the pramANAs are the itihasas. Obviously there are only two itihAsAs. The great rAmAyaNa and mahAbhAratha. In the originals by Sri Valmiki and Sri Veda Vyasa respectively, there is no claim that either Rama or Krishna worshipped any other god. In Ramayana, the now existing stories like, Rama worshipping surya (Adithya hridayam), doing pooja for Linga at Rameswaram, etc are totally false claims. None of these is supported in Srimadh Valmiki Ramayanam. These are the stories which were framed by the later date Saivaites, during & after the time of Appayya dhIkshitar, who had a natural hatred for the Supremity of Vishnu as told in vEdAs, but realising the truth during the old age, wrote some verses on Sri Varadarajar of ThiruAtthigiri and also did a vyAkhyAnam for one of Swami Desikan's works ( I do not remember the name of the work.). The fourth line of the pramANAs is the purANAs. The purANAs, take the last place in the hierarchy for the following reasons as expounded by Sri Manavala Mamunigal in his vyAkhyAnam for SriVachana bhooshaNam of Sri Pillai LokacharyAr. When swami starts explaining the sutra " vEdArthAm aRudhiyiduvathu smruthi ithihAsa purANAgaLAlE", he explains it as follows: As per the Rules of putting sequence of words together, the rule "alpAcha tharam poorvam" should be followed. This means that in the sequence of words, which are used as examples, the word with least character should be used first. If that is the case then it should have been only "smruthi purANA ithihAsangaLAlE" and not as said above. But there is an exception to the above rule, which is "abyarhitham poorvam". This means that though the word may be longer, it can take the first position, due to the trueness of the meanings it conveys.. As it is well known, the 18 purANAs are classified as "sAthvika (6), rAjasa (6) and tAmasa (6)" while the sAthvika purANAs uphold the true meaning of the vEdAs, the rAjasa and tAmasa purANAs are said to have emerged during the respective state of mind of brahmA and hence it talks about the supremity of the god belonging to that guNa. It is also well known that BrahmA has rAja guNa and Siva has tAmasa guNa. Due to the above fact the purANAs take the last place in the hierarchy of pramANAs. Now going back to our discussion about some myths saying that Vishnu worshipped other gods, this appears only in this tAmasa purANA. There is also a comical saying in tamizh "endha puLugum kanda purANathil" means, all the false claims are in kanda purANa. Our SrivaishNava poorvAchAyAs have very clearly said that we have consider only the sAthvika purANAs and renounce the remaining two. In fact this verse is taken from the purANA ratnam "VishNu purANAm". Hence the claims of the Srivaishnavas that we should not pray anybody other than Sriman Naryanan is very valid. However for greater details, I suggest , who ever is interested, to read the following books of Sri Puttur Krishnaswamy Iyengar, who has dealt such things in a very apt manner. 1) Sri Vishnu chitta vijayam (I think 4 parts) 2) Sankararum Vaishnavamum 3) sAthi madha arAichi. AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh > > hello friends, > > i've been subscribing to this list for quite some > > time > > and this is my first query. > > > > acc. to mythology, there have been many instances > > where Lord Vishnu / avatar(s) had worshipped other > > gods like Lord Shiva, Agni . then why does (sri) > > vaisnavism insist that ONLY the supreme Lord > > Sriman > > Narayanan ( and his consort) be worshipped ?why > cant > the followers of vaishnavism worsip other gods? > > I hope the member(s) of this grp will give me a > > satisfactory answer. > > Thanking you > > rgds > > Cadambi Srinivasan Sampath > > > > > > > > > __________ > > > > For regular News updates go to > http://in.news. > > > __________ > > For regular News updates go to http://in.news. __________ For regular News updates go to http://in.news. ----------------------------- - SrImate rAmAnujAya namaH - To Post a message, send it to: bhakti-list Archives: http://ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/ Your use of is subject to Add a Standard Disclaimer Text Here........................................................ 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Guest guest Report post Posted June 11, 2001 Sri T V Venkatesh has given a very nice summary of key points within the Vedas that prove without a doubt the supremacy of Sriman Narayana. I would like to add a few thoughts to this discussion by attempting to answer Sri Sampath's second question: > > > why > > cant > > the followers of vaishnavism worsip other gods? The answer to this question is really best understood more from the emotional experience that one slowly cultivates through proper teaching that leads one to the feeling of True Joy of serving and worshipping Sriman Narayana exclusively. Such a sincere level of devotion is really the result of a simple changing of the heart, an experience of faith that serves as the conduit for the Lord's Grace to take us to a greater transformation. Devotees in this forum can probably share dozens of examples of what bringsabout this heartfelt change. I would like to offer three: The Vedas teach us that Sriman Narayana is the very soul of the Universe, and all things animate and inanimate are His adjectival nodes. It follows then that the very Beauty of all that we see, the Wonder of all that we experience, has at its essence the Supreme Being. What we see is only a fraction of this Universe, and still we revel in its mystery. One can only imagine then what He must be like. Another way of cultivating devotion is to recall His Accessibility. He is described in the Vedas as the Great Mystery of Mysteries, a Light that pales a myriad of suns. The entire Universe depends on His smallest Compassionate Glance for its very existence. And, yet, in our purAnas we see Him serving rishis, fighting wrondoers, caring for simple village folk, and going through immense pain and sacrifice, all for the sake of making Himself accessible to His devotees. Just thinking about this Great God of gods allowing Himself to be tied to a mortar by His mother Yashoda, or serving as a humble servant to a Arjuna, gives us only a hint of how much love and compassion He has for each and every one of us. No other deity that I know of takes this much effort just to be with us. How then can we avoid our natural instinctions to feel love for the One who Loves us so much. The third and perhaps easiest form of developing such a devotion, and this one is my personal favorite, is to observe our AchAryas. Here we are in the beginning of the 21st century, when technology and material comforts are readily available to anyone. And yet, for some reason that is greater than themselves, our AchAryas, despite their education and erudition, are living simple, solemn lives of devotion and service in an effort to bring this Supreme God to all people. Some are at very late stages of earthly life, and yet they are continuing to travel on long and sometimes arduous journeys. Some come from very educated backgrounds and could have used their knowledge to make themselves very successful. And, yet they give up everything, name, fame, wealth, family, all for our benefit, to serve as simple instruments to Ramanuja's Vision. If such a person tells us to worship Sriman Narayana exclusively, how we can help but do otherwise. adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan Mohan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 11, 2001 Srimathe Ramanujaya namaha That was a nice narration from Sri Mohan Sagar , Sri Vijayaraghavan Bhashyam and Sri T.S.Sundararajan though on a different subject. To add a few lines to Sri Mohan Sagar's mail please read as follows:- <Start Quote> Another way of cultivating devotion is to recall His Accessibility. He is described in the Vedas as the Great Mystery of Mysteries, a Light that pales a myriad of suns. The entire Universe depends on His smallest Compassionate Glance for its very existence. And, yet, in our purAnas we see Him serving rishis, fighting wrondoers, caring for simple village folk, and going through immense pain and sacrifice, all for the sake of making Himself accessible to His devotees. Just thinking about this Great God of gods allowing Himself to be tied to a mortar by His mother Yashoda, or serving as a humble servant to a Arjuna, gives us only a hint of how much love and compassion He has for each and every one of us. No other deity that I know of takes this much effort just to be with us. How then can we avoid our natural instinctions to feel love for the One who Loves us so much. <End Quote> This is precisely what Sri NammAzhwAr has said in Thiruviruttham , 1st pAsuram. "....uyiraLippAn enninRa yOniyumAi piranthAi.." meaning He takes birth in any form to help His devotees to attain the salvation. That He is the birthless but takes birth to help His devotees is revealed by the Purusha sooktha mantram "ajAyamAnO bahudA vijAyathe". His births are not bound by the karmA but only due to His wish. His divine form is not made of prakruthi but is made of Suddha satva. Sri NammAzhwAr again in his Periya ThiruvandhAdhi, says " un adiyArkku en seivan enRE irutti nee.." meaning He is always waiting to do something good for His devotees and all that He needs only a go ahead from us. Now adding to those wonderful verses quoted by Sri Vijayaraghavan Bhashyam, as told by Siva, in the most famous Vishnu Sahasranamam, Siva tell Parvathi, when questioned by her as to what is the mantra that will make the jeevas attain mOksha, "Sri rAma rAma rAmEthi ramE rAmE manOramE, sahasranAma tatthulyam rAma nAma varAnaneE". The meaning is not required as it is self conveying. I request all to recollect my statements in my earlier postings regarding the claims by the later day saivites that Rama worshipped Siva to get rid of Brahmahatti dOsha at Rameswaram. Logically is it possible for the para-brahman to worship His fellow devotee when Siva himself hails Sri rAma nAmam as the one which clears all the sins of the fellow jeevAs and make them attain salvation. On the otherhand the purAnAs behold that Siva worshipped Sriman Narayanan at ThirukaNdiyur to get rid of his brahmahatti dOsham when he cut the fifth head of BramhA, his father. This is well brought out by Thirumangai AzhwAr in His ThirukkurunthANdagam "piNdiyAr maNdai yendhi pirar manai thiri thandhuNNum uNdiyAn sAbam theertha oruvanoor, ulagamEthum kaNdiyur..." [When Siva cut the fifth head of BrahmA in anger, BrahmA gives a curse that due to the Brahmahatti dOsham the kabAlam will stick on to his hands. Siva prays to Sriman Naryanan at ThirukkaNDiyur to get rid of this sApam] Going thro all these verses I hope it will be clear that why Srivaishnavas say they should not worship any other god as they have THE SUPREME BEING as the god of their sampradhAyam. I also invite attention to Sri T.S.Sundararajan's mail where he writes :- <Start Quote> "SuklAmbara-dharam vishNum SaSi-varNam chatur-bhujam prasanna-vadanam dhyAyEt sarva-vighnOpa-SAntayE", is recited at the commencement of any auspicious rite, vaidika-kriya, as invoking vishNu as 'vighna-hartA', to quell the impediments. It is curious that Sri SEnkAlipuram ananta-rAma dIkshitar, as well as the Ramakrishna Mission, have carried this SlOkam in their publications, but constantly translating 'vishNu' into Tamil as 'piLLaiyAr'. This unethical newspeak has become so prevalent that Sri Krishna Premi svami was obliged to clarify in Srirangam (in his current series of lectures on 'tiru-c-chhanda-viruttam') on Saturday (June 9 2001) that 'vishNu' occurring in the dhyAna-SlOkam "SuklAmbara-dharam vishNum" stands for 'vishNu' and not for (the later-day Saiva cultist) 'piLLaiyAr'. This strategy of disinformation extended to appropriating for later-day icons the role-names ["nAmAni gauNAni...mahAtmanah, r*shibhih parigItAni"] of the One God drawn from ancient texts ['gaNAnAm tvA gaNapatim', 'vishvak-sEnO', 'SastA' etc], and hurriedly putting together a kitsch-n-pastiche mythology to 'enhance' such icons. <End Quote> This is a standing example of how the later day saivites created false stories to uphold their claim of Siva's supremity against that of Sriman Narayana. Also Sri T.S.Sundararajan writes :- <Start Quote> It is a sad irony that the SrIvaishNava community had neglected to know about the 'prasthAna-traya bhAshyam' of SrI Sankara-bhagavat-pAdAh; SrI Sankara is indeed a beacon-light of vaishNava religion. The AchArya propounded 'advaitam' and remained a profound vaishNava; for that matter, krshNa-miSra the author of the allegory play 'prabOdha-chandrOdayam', and mahApurush SrI SankaradEva of Assam, were also vaishNava and advaiti-dialecticians at the same time. <End Quote> This is THE fact regarding Sri Adi Sankarar. The present day photographs of Sri Adi Sankarar shows him sporting a vibhooti. But one of his immediate sishyAs (if I remember right it is Sri Vidyaranya) who wrote a sloka on Adi Sankara, at the end says that Sri Adi sankara never sported a Vibooti on his forehead. Sri Sankara, beyond doubts, established the supremacy of Vishnu in his PrashthAna thraya bhashyam. For examples, please refer to "Sankararum Vaishnavamum" by Sri Puttur Krishnaswamy Iyengar. There may be many other books including the bhashyams themselves, but I read the above book and hence am suggesting the same as I know only that book. Hence it is established beyond any doubt that Sriman Narayanan is the one and only Supreme being and when He is on our side why should we worship other gods. AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan, Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh Add a Standard Disclaimer Text Here........................................................ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 12, 2001 > >The third and perhaps easiest form of developing such a devotion, and this one >is my personal favorite, is to observe our AchAryas. Here we are in the >beginning of the 21st century, when technology and material comforts are >readily available to anyone. And yet, for some reason that is greater than >themselves, our AchAryas, despite their education and erudition, are living >simple, solemn lives of devotion and service in an effort to bring >this Supreme >God to all people. Some are at very late stages of earthly life, and yet they >are continuing to travel on long and sometimes arduous journeys. Some come >from very educated backgrounds and could have used their knowledge to make >themselves very successful. And, yet they give up everything, name, fame, >wealth, family, all for our benefit, to serve as simple instruments to >Ramanuja's Vision. If such a person tells us to worship Sriman Narayana >exclusively, how we can help but do otherwise. > >adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan >Mohan Mohan -if you excuse me for budding in - Faith in the teacher is very important- there is no question about it - but that faith should be supported by logic too. Bhagavaan Ramanuja says whatever he says is supported by proper logic and scriptures- otherwise it becomes blind faith. I personally do not think Bhagavaan Ramanuja want us to follow him blindly. The emphasis of Lord Naaraayana is established by Ramanuja in his Shree Bhaashya as the parabrahma in his Shree Bhaashya who is sarva shatik maan and sarva vyaapakatva and the sarva sR^ishhTitva. There is only one paramaatma - hence all others are exhualted jiiva-s. The maaya is his shakti and - daiviim yeshaa guNa mayi mama maayas duratyayaa, maamevaye prapadyante maayam etam tarantite - is a declaration that only surrendering to Him one can cross the ocean of samsaara. The goal of life is to do exactly that. Hence if moksha is the goal - it is useless to approach other gods who have no capacity to give if that is what one is seeking. The capacity of other gods comes from NaraayaNa since as per vishishhTa adviata - the organic relationship between the sesha-seshi - parmaatma and jiiva-s pervades through the entire cosmos that includes the other Gods as well. Hence 1. It is useless to approach other Gods since they cannot give moksha 2. Second what they can give are only material gains - which again will entangle one more and more to aj~naana. The problem gets more difficult. 3. That capacity to give for them also comes from NaaraayaNa only. - therefore what is the need?. At the same time One should not disrespect other gods , not hate other gods. Because they are also his bhakta-s. In the Vaishanavism Bhagavata seeva is as important as bhagavat sava - provided one understands that what is being worshipped through them is NaarayaNa only - tat bR^itya bR^itya parichaaraka bR^itya b^ityasya iti maam smaraloka naatha - says Kulasekhara alwar. As long as one understand that through bhaagavata, what one is worshipping is only the bhagavaan. Hence what is discouraged is the worship of other gods to gain material benefits since that is all they can give. But bhaagavata seva is very important and they are His bR^itya-s too if there is only one paramaatma. It is important to understand the nature of parabrahman then the logic of do-s and don't become very clear. Hari Om! Sadananda -- K. Sadananda Code 6323 Naval Research Laboratory Washington D.C. 20375 Voice (202)767-2117 Fax:(202)767-2623 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 12, 2001 Srimathe Ramanujaya namaha Sri Sadananda wrote : <Start Quote> Mohan -if you excuse me for budding in - Faith in the teacher is very important- there is no question about it - but that faith should be supported by logic too. Bhagavaan Ramanuja says whatever he says is supported by proper logic and scriptures- otherwise it becomes blind faith. I personally do not think Bhagavaan Ramanuja want us to follow him blindly. ..... .......... Hence if moksha is the goal - it is useless to approach other gods who have no capacity to give if that is what one is seeking. The capacity of other gods comes from NaraayaNa since as per vishishhTa adviata - the organic relationship between the sesha-seshi - parmaatma and jiiva-s pervades through the entire cosmos that includes the other Gods as well. Hence 1. It is useless to approach other Gods since they cannot give moksha 2. Second what they can give are only material gains - which again will entangle one more and more to aj~naana. The problem gets more difficult. 3. That capacity to give for them also comes from NaaraayaNa only. - therefore what is the need?. <End Quote> This point is well taken, but if I can rephrase it for Sri Mohan Sagar's statement, it should be conceived as follows: In upadEsa ratnamAlai, Sri maNavALa mAmunigaL says, "gnAnam anuTTAnam ivai nanRAgavE udayanAna guruvai adainthakkAl, mAnilatheer, thEnar kamalath thirumAmagaL kozhunan, thAnE vaikuntham tharum" Here he says that one has to surrender at the feet of a guru who has complete jnana and performs the anushTAnams correctly. The jnani, is one who realises the nature of this jeevAtmA with respect to the paramAtmA, which the sesha-seshi relationship. So it goes without saying that, such a guru will only teach his sishya about the correct nature of performing prapatti and hence whatever he says will be right. It is upto the sishya to examine whether his guru is the right one before becoming his sishya, just like Sri Madurakavi AzhwAr became a sishyA of Sri NammAzhwAr. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 13, 2001 But what begs my mind is the following question. Lord Krishna in Gita clearly states that worshipping other devaata is not going to get them the ultimate. However, no where does Lord Krishna say do NOT worship. Nor does He label such worshippers sinners. Who in the world are we to label them such? Or to ordain constraints that Sriman Narayana the one only Principle that matters has not chosen to do! Are we even followers to Sriman Narayana if we assume even higher role than Sriman Narayana? We are fundamentally negating Sriman Narayana if we exclude anyone. Each life is a small point on an asymptote tending to Sriman Narayana. Just because one point is slight advanced than another point towards the End Point, it does not mean we can hurt someone else in these ways. "Amanitvam, Adhambitvam, Ahimsa ..." and so goes Githa Acharyan. Ahimsa by thought is extremely important. A venerable Tamil pearl says "Theenal chutta pun arum vaieenal ..." the essence of which is that hurtful words can never be healed. In summary, Sriman Narayana that I pray everyday has not imposed any of these labels or these "later day " restrictions. Not all of us Narayana Bhaktas think that worshippers of other faiths are sinners. It is important for one to realize the significance and the ultimacy of Sriman Narayana at their own pace. Surely, everyone will reach Sriman Narayana and that is His promise. Not mine. Om Namo Narayana! The One and Only Thing That Matters. --- tvv1 wrote: > Lot of stuff deleted for net efficiency. Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz./ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 13, 2001 Srimathe Ramanujaya namaha : Well no where did anyone say that those who worship any body other than Sriman Narayanan are Sinners. As Sri T.S.Sundararajan wrote <Start Quote> "ArOgyam bhAskarAt iCChEt, dhanam iCChEt hutASanAt, ISAnAt jnAnam anviCChEt, mOksham iCChEt janArdanAt." [seek health from the sun, wealth from agni, realisation from ISAna, and deliverance from janArdana.] <End Quote> Here the realisation or the jnana which is said, is nothing but the realisation of the Supreme Being, and that of the relationship of the jeevAtmA with that of the paramAtmA. This can be got from Siva. Our ancestors have classified the Shastras into five categories, 1) asAram, 2) alpasAram, 3)sAram, 4) sAratharam, & 5) sArathamam. The following sloka instructs which should be followed. "asAram alpasAram cha sAram sAratharam tyajEth, bajEth sArathamam sAstrE ratnAkara ivAmrutam" This means that in order to obtain the salvation, one should renounce the first 4 and should only adhere to the 5th which is the flawless sArathamam. What are these 5? asAram : This is the portion in the vEdAs which if followed will yield results that is not at all encouraged. Example, a homam or yagnam to get rid of one's enemy. Or simply stating, to trouble others. Now the question may arise as to how can the vEdAs specify such a hOmam or yagnam, when it is only supposed to speak of good things. The answer is, this portion is NOT FOR THE JNANIS but for those who does not believe in vEdAs. If an atheist who wants to get rid of an enemy is told about this and he does that hOmam and gets the result, the next thing he will do is to START BELIEVING the vEdAs. Then he will start asking " what does the vEdAs give ME, more than getting rid of my enemies". The answer for this is the alpasAram. alpasAram : This is the portion of vEdAs, which specifies the necessary karmAs, to attain the materialistic and worldly pleasures. This is better than the earlier one because, this does not talk about any destruction. Still this is also NOT for the jnanis. Now the person starts believing the vEdAs very well and the next question. "What is the way I can get rid of this births and rebirths. He now enters the lower level of self realisation which is sAram. sAram : This is portion in which the atmAnubhavam is specified. This is also called as the Kaivalyam. The person who enters the state of Kaivalyam, though gets devoid of rebirths will not attain the highest state of salvation which is doing the service to Sriman Narayanan. So after realising this, the person starts asking "What should I do, so that I don't enter into this kaivalyam and go to mOksha?" This is explained by the sAratharam. sAratharam : It is the portion of vEdas which instructs the anushTAnams that have to be done to attain the lotus feet of Sriman Narayanan and to do eternal kainkaryam. Then why is this not the top most of all? Because, what this instructs is only swagatha sweekAra roopa kainkaryam. It means we do kainkaryam to Him for our pleasure. sArathamam : This is best of all and the Highest state of all. This talks about the paragathasweekAra roopa kainkaryam for Him. It means doing kainkaryam to Him, for His pleasure and not ours. This state exemplifies the 'paratantra' nature of the (jeeva) AtmA to Sriman Narayanan. Now why all the above explanations? To answer the question, those who worship other gods will only attain worldly pleasures and also by virtue of being true to them will get some jnanam in their rebirths and finally realise the Supreme, get rid of the prArabha karmAs, and then enter paramapadham. The following story explains the same. There was once a spider in a Siva temple which did kainkaryam to him by weaving its web as an umbrella over the lingam. There was also an elephant which was an ardent devotee of Siva which used to do kainkaryam to him by bringing water from the nearby river and do abhishekam to him, due to which the Web got disturbed every time. Angered at this, one day the Spider bit the elephant. In a rage the elephant stamped the spider and died due to poison. Due to the utmost devotion, the spider was born as a king in its next birth and he constructed many Siva temples. He was aware of his previous birth and due to the dwEsham on the elephant, constructed the sanctum in such a way that no elephant could enter it. In the due course, he received the complete jnAnam from Siva and became an ardent devotee of the Supreme, Sriman Narayanan and attained mOksham. (sorry nothing was said about the elephant in its rebirth) As you said, each life is a small point on an asymptote tending to Sriman Narayana. No doubt about it. But when we are supposed to follow the visishtAdvaita school which is THE correct school of vEdAnta, then why should we even look at other gods. Once again, NO DISRESPECT meant to them. As per the visishTAdvaita school, one should aspire only for the highest pleasure of serving the Supreme Being (Sriman Narayanan) and not for the worldly pleasures. As the mOksham can be granted only by Him, why should we even look at others. This is the right point. Even if one worships other gods, he will still take births (though the prayers are directed towards the antaryAmi Sriman Narayanan) like the king above and only when He does the saraNAgati in the correct form, he attains mOksha. So please understand that no body says, 'those who worship other gods are sinners'. AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan, Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh Add a Standard Disclaimer Text Here........................................................ 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Guest guest Report post Posted June 14, 2001 Sir Thank you very much for substantiating lot of information. Your keywords "NO DISRESPECT" is very important. Sometimes, I do come across posts that instead of shedding positive light and encouraging unfortunately air these extreme opinions. In the digital medium this lives for ever and and all of us may be associated with rather naive viewpoint. Let me take this opportunity and follow this with another email why we should be inviting and accomodating. Once one gets the nectar of human life form the Para Tattva then we are not required. They will be on auto-pilot. How do we get them there. Not by threats and lables. But by exemplary behaviour etc... Thank you -- RK Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz./ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 14, 2001 Deat Bakthas, Our salutations to God in any name finally reaches the Lotus Feet of Kesava just like the rain water falling anywhere reaches the mighty ocean. "Aakaasaath pathitham thoyam yataa gacchathi sagaram Sarva deva namaskarah Kesavam pratigacchathi" There is no room for any argument or controversy on the Supremacy of Lord Narayana. Adiyen Soundararajan Asset-Enterprise Technologies <asset wrote: But what begs my mind is the following question. Lord Krishna in Gita clearly states that worshipping other devaata is not going to get them the ultimate. However, no where does Lord Krishna say do NOT worship. Nor does He label such worshippers sinners. Who in the world are we to label them such? Or to ordain constraints that Sriman Narayana the one only Principle that matters has not chosen to do! Are we even followers to Sriman Narayana if we assume even higher role than Sriman Narayana? We are fundamentally negating Sriman Narayana if we exclude anyone. Each life is a small point on an asymptote tending to Sriman Narayana. Just because one point is slight advanced than another point towards the End Point, it does not mean we can hurt someone else in these ways. "Amanitvam, Adhambitvam, Ahimsa ..." and so goes Githa Acharyan. Ahimsa by thought is extremely important. A venerable Tamil pearl says "Theenal chutta pun arum vaieenal ..." the essence of which is that hurtful words can never be healed. In summary, Sriman Narayana that I pray everyday has not imposed any of these labels or these "later day " restrictions. Not all of us Narayana Bhaktas think that worshippers of other faiths are sinners. It is important for one to realize the significance and the ultimacy of Sriman Narayana at their own pace. Surely, everyone will reach Sriman Narayana and that is His promise. Not mine. Om Namo Narayana! The One and Only Thing That Matters. --- tvv1 wrote: > Lot of stuff deleted for net efficiency. Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz./ ----------------------------- - SrImate rAmAnujAya namaH - To Post a message, send it to: bhakti-list Archives: http://ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/ Your use of is subject to Buzz Index - Spot the hottest trends in music, movies,and more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 14, 2001 Hello Please accept my sincere greetings, appreciation and regards for your contribution. I would be "mis-representing" if I practiced one thing and professed another. Sriman Narayana is the smallest of the smallest and biggest of the biggest. Sriman Narayana subsumes the known and the unknown. Sriman Narayana is the ultimate. Learned and qualified including Sriman M.S. Hari has posted several articles with vedic pramana on this subject matter. A simpleton like me can borrow text from Gita and Purusa Suukta in support of this. The ultimacy of Sriman Narayana is not in question and was never one. What is rankling to this simpleton SriVaishnavite, Sriman Narayana baktan is the following: What right do I have to call someone a sinner when Lord Krishna has declared in Rudranam Sankaras c'asmi --Gita 10.23 Certainly it is not efficient as Sriman Narayana Himself declares elsewhere in Gita. But is it sin? If so where is it stated? I will accept Gita, Upanisad and Samhitas in support. >From a layman point of view, may be I am here because of 100000 births before this and so I am able to appreciate the significance of "Tad Vishno Paramam Padham" May be athma is not ready for prappatti but does it become sin? Is it not one's inability to distinguish and completely contemplate on "purushothama". Furthermore, Sriman Narayana out of infinite compassion for those of who are fickle minded and not steadfast, enunciates the results of worshipping other deities in Gita 7.20-7.23. Surely, not being singularly contemplative of Sriman Narayana and not saturating ones thoughts with Sriman Narayana is contradictory to "prappatti". But please help me understand why worship would be prohibited or become sin? Who is the looser? One who is distracted or? Let me end with Sriman Narayana's promise to all of us: teshAm aham samuddhartA mRtyu-samasAra sAgarAt bhavAni na cirAt pArtha mayyAveSita cetasAm (12.7) “Of those whose minds are thus focused on Me, I become soon their savior from the ocean of mortal life”. " divyO dEva ekO nArAyaNa :" (There is one and only one Divya dEva who is nArAyaNA) " AgniravamO dEvathAnAm, paramO VishNu :" (Amongst the dEvas, the lowest is Agni and the Supreme is Vishnu) "EkO ha vai nArAyaNa Aseeth, na brahmA nEsAna :" (There was [at the beginning] one and only one Existant who is nArAyaNa, not brahmA, not even Siva) Tad Vishno Paramam Padham Namo Narayana "Katril thulli visum kodiyum sirikum vinnil nilavai thedum ennai kandu nuurayeram piravi kondum Udayavan Unnai kaannatha pithan pethai ennai kandu ini kanda pinnum thamatham vendaam Uyarthanthil Uyarnthavan Mudayan Unnidam UnEnnam Matrondu enrum Vendam vendugirom iniathul inniavane Unnidam" Having said all of this, I doubt if is proper for a Sri Vaishanavite to be intolerant, to be exclusive, or to think less of others. I am unable to do so! Because while I might have taken 100,000 births to be here in this Blissful state of understanding and accepting the "Para Tattvam", these other athma may attain might have just started and might attain my state in 1000 births. Obviously I am the one to be sympathized with. Where is "Adhambitvam"? if I should think less of them? Help me! Thank you -- Anandavalli Dasan PS: For those who do not know Tamil in the quoted prosody, I am lamenting that for 100K births I was searching for the full moon amidst twinkling little stars in the night sky. That even a "achethana" tree that singlepointedly brings breeze to multitude tired bhagavathas and archa moorthy will laugh at my inability. Having seen "That" finally I beseech upon Sriman Narayana the unqualified owner of everything the bestower of sweetest of the sweetest and highest of the highest to grant this incapable idiot the bliss of His thoughts and only His thoughts. Nothing more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
