Serious Mysore Questions (pragmatic)

[Guest guest]

Alright, let's open with a

disclaimer:<br><br>This question is directed to the pragmatic who have

studied in Mysore. I need a private reply with some good

advice and I have no need to spark a public

debate/discussion. I would like to hear from someone who went to

India and shared my concerns.<br><br>I have a window of

travel time in India from December-February. I have been

doing vinyasa yoga for 4 years and primary series for

~6 months. I like Ashtanga, and I think it (or some

minor modifaction thereof) will continue to be my daily

practice. Maybe I might teach one day. Given this, it

sounds like I should be on my way to Mysore! However,

I've heard:<br><br>1) Long waits to practice<br>2)

Little attention for male students<br>3) Mostly western

students<br><br>and I know:<br><br>4) It's Very Expensive<br>5) PKJ's

book is, to my way of thinking, not very helpful and

has lots of superstitious gibbering.<br>6) Western

proponents seem to be giving/writing better technical

instruction.<br>7) Like minded friends found PKJ's following at US

classes cult-like, ego-tripping, and more interested in

verbatim replication than serious inquiry, learning,

self-transformation. <br><br>(Flame off, kids. I know what the

faithful think about all this, but I want to hear from

someone who worked their way through this and came to

their own conclusions.)<br><br>I would like to maximize

my time in India and use it to deepen my

understanding of Yoga (that's yoga big "Y" -- I'd like a mix of

asana, pranayama, theory, practice, and I wouldn't mind

some chanting), and as you can tell I have some

serious doubts about PKJ. <br><br>Should I go despite all

this?<br>Can anyone recommend other yoga study opportunities

in India that include vinyasa asana?<br>Can anyone

recommend other yoga study opportunities in India

generally?<br><br>Thanks for any help,<br><br>Will<br><br>reply to

willinasia2001

[Guest guest]

Yo,<br>If you live in Santa Barbara, you should

talk to Steve Dwelley. He is certified now - meaning

he has spent many months/years studying with Guruji

in Mysore. <br>Steve Dwelley<br>Ashtanga Yoga

Shala<br>324e State Street<br>Santa Barbara, CA 93101<br>(805)

966-7157<br>dwelley<br>www.ashtangasantabarbara.com<br><br>Also a

great guy. If you want to do Ashtanga and study

in Mysore, he would be a good place to start. A

bunch of people who practice at the shala have also

been to Mysore.<br><br>Sounds like you have already

made up your mind and have some very specific demands

when it comes to a teacher. Are you sure you even want

a teacher? I don't think anyone will meet those

expectations, especially if you aren't willing to give up some

of your demands and trust the advise of someone who

might be willing to teach you. (WILLING being the

operative concept. No one is 'entitled' to study in Mysore.

People get turned away all of the time.)<br><br>If

you've only been doing the primary series for six

months, based on what you have written you are jumping

way ahead of yourself. <br><br>If you keep looking

hard enough, you will find someone who will tell you

exactly what you want to hear.<br><br>If you want to

socialize at an ashram, learn some 'chanting' and have a

'yoga vacation' without the demands of a disciplined

practice, try the Sivinanda folks. They have oodles of

'yoga getaways' and easy-to-read english manuals. They

specialize in people who want to feel like yogi's but don't

want to do the work. (The big 'Y') They also therefore

specialize in 'modifications' - something that you will NOT

find in Mysore.<br><br>FBL

[Guest guest]

Sounds like Mysore is not for you. <br>There is however a terrific Bikram

studio at your local mall which sounds much more suited to your interests and

inclinations.<br><br>El Senor, Ole!

[Guest guest]

Dear FBL.<br><br>Well put.<br><br>DMcG

[Guest guest]

Sounds like it might be worth your while to look

up bns iyengar, who teaches in mysore. (There's a

guy in the UK who has a webpage devoted partly to him

-- you'll probably find it by typing "bns iyengar"

into a search engine). Mr. Iyengar was a student of

Krishnamacharya; he offers classes in pranayama, mudra,

meditation, as well as an asana system that looks almost

exactly like the Ashtanga system before Jois divided it

into six series.<br><br>That's almost all I

know.<br><br>Peace and Good,<br>Homer

[Guest guest]

but does bns iyengar have the endorsement of el senor? or is he a yoga criminal?

that is the question.

[Guest guest]

you might want to try taking classes with

Vankatesh. He has a school in mysore and many of PJ's

students also take classes form him and his wife. I was in

mysore this past year studying with PJ and also took

classes in philosophy and chanting from Vankatesh. His

school is about a block away from dishnet hub.If you

want more info about his school you can probably find

it by asking on this or the ezboard<br>good luck

[Guest guest]

Here's a website with information about the

various yoga teachers in Mysore, including KPJ, BNSI, his

student Sheshadri, and

Venkatesh.<br><br><a href=http://indigo.ie/~cmouze/yoga_online/Mysore.htm

target=new>http://indigo.ie/~cmouze/yoga_online/Mysore.htm</a><br><br>According

to this BNSI studied under both Krishnamarcharya

and KPJ (it also says some women have felt

uncomfortable at his school.)

[Guest guest]

While in Mysore i went to check out BNSI ( KPJ

was closed many days due to vatious holidays. )It was

fun to visit and practice in the building he taught

in and to practice with Indians (instead of

westerneres) but as far as his teachings... I wasn't

impressed.

[Guest guest]

Quite simply you will never know unless you try. <br><br>If you go, go with an

open heart and mind.

[Guest guest]

Dear Will,<br><br>I am affraid that most of what

you heard is true, although some Guru worshippers

won't like to hear about it. As you say, Flame off

kids!<br><br>I'll go throught your message point by point.<br>1)

Long waits to practice<br>From what I heard yesterday

the wait is currently around two hours at the busiest

time. This is partially because of people trying to

jump the queue and not coming at their allocated time.

It is bound to get even worst as more students are

coming in. There is a lot of grumbling going on about

this.<br><br>2) Little attention for male students<br>In fact,

little attention to anyone who can do their own

practice. Guruji often falls asleep in a corner of the

room. Sharath gets bored and leave the room. If you

have your own practice, you will probably only get

ajusted in backbend, at the end of the

practice.<br><br>3) Mostly western students<br>ONLY western

students!!! Indian can't afford that kind of prices, and

unlike other teachers in Mysore, Patthabi doesn't have a

special rate for locals.<br>Also, from what I hear from

locals in Mysore, Patthabi Jois is not very well liked

amongst them.<br><br>4) 5) 6) It's Very Expensive<br>Yes,

and it is very poor value for money. If you have that

sort of money to spend on yoga, you would certainly be

better of spending in on training with a westerner

teacher. <br>Patthabi Jois claim to fame is undoubtingly

that he has train in the past some excellent western

teachers, such as John Scott, Graeme Northfield, Lino

Miele, Deena Kingsberg, David Swenson (to name only the

one I have studied with). <br>These teachers

understand Western students needs far better that Patthabi

Jois ever will, usually do not fall prey of

superstition and tradition (such as always doing padmasana on

the same side) and you therefore get much better

instructions from them. <br><br>7) Like minded friends found

PKJ's following at US classes cult-like, ego-tripping,

and more interested in verbatim replication than

serious inquiry, learning, self-transformation.

<br>That's a moot point, but I personnaly believe that you

are right on this one as well. I have found the "Guru

Worshipping" aspect of studying with Patthabi very disturbing.

No other Indian teacher I know would have his

students prosternating at his feet. What does that tell us

about Patthabi Jois? and about his followers?<br><br>To

conclude, my advice to you is:<br>1) If you want to learn

ashtanga, go to one of the western teachers certified by

him, or to any teacher that has a solid reputation and

has been practicing and teaching the system for long

enough.<br>2) If you want to study yoga in Mysore, go to

Venkatesh (see my article on Yoga in Mysore

at<br><a href=http://indigo.ie/~cmouze/yoga_online/Mysore.htm

target=new>http://indigo.ie/~cmouze/yoga_online/Mysore.htm</a><br>3) If you want

to study ashtanga in Mysore, go to

Sheshadri (again, see my article). His shala is not very

busy, and you will get value for your money there. I

don't recommend BNS Iyengar either, not because of the

molesting rumours (I was in Mysore at the time of that

incident, and from what I heard then, it has been grossly

exagerated), but because he teaches in three rooms at the same

time, which garantees that you will get even less

attention that in Laksmipuram...<br><br>Happy

vinyasa<br><br>Namaste,<br><br>Christophe Mouze<br>Editor Yoga

Online<br>Ireland, but

currently studying yoga in

Mysore<br><a href=http://www.yogamagazine.net

target=new>http://www.yogamagazine.net</a>

[Guest guest]

Hummm... what you are saying does not

jive.<br><br>Allen Little, a long-time poster on this form who is in

Mysore right now has an online diary of his experiences

there.

<a href=http://www.alanlittle.org/yoga/MysoreDiary.html

target=new>http://www.alanlittle.org/yoga/MysoreDiary.html</a><br><br>He seems

to have none of the complaints you have so

laboriously outlined.

[Guest guest]

Dear Will,<br> I'm afraid most of what you've

heard from Christopher is the same bullshit sour grapes

nonsense you hear from all the other bellyaching whiners

who don't really have an emotional or spiritual

conection with Guruji. Why these people got to Mysore in

the first place is a mystery to me. There are always

people who find the same nitpicky items to make a big

deal about, who cant seem to find one decent thing

about practicing at Gurujis.<br><br>1)It is true that

there are long waits. BIG DEAL. <br>yes, lets hurry up

so I can practice, so I can go and do absolutely

nothing for the rest of the day if I feel like

it.<br><br>2)Guruji and Sharath didnt adjust me much, but I have to

say that being in that room, with Guruji there, even

when he was snoozing, was a deeply transformational

experience and did incredible things for my practice and in

my life. As for Sharath leaving the room when he was

"bored"- maybe he went to use the bathroom, they are

teaching for hours on end, you know.<br><br>3) If the

locals in Mysore do not like Guruji<br>(which is a rude,

gossippy thing to repeat, by the way), they are even more

obnoxious than I thought. Considering the fact that an

entire cottage industry has sprung up around his

students, primarily consisting of aggressive panhandling,

meals, lodging, and transportation, they should

personnally thank Guruji. There a lots of people making the

kind of living they would never make if it weren't for

him.<br><br>4,5,6) Gurujis fees are not high. What MOST students get

out of being there, is worth far more than what they

put in to it. If it wasnt true, Guruji would have

been out of business long ago. Additionally, lets say

Eddie in NY is charging 250 a month- which he does- do

you think Guruji should charge the same or maybe even

less?<br><br>7) Why is it a moot point? Because YOU, the supreme

authority, happen to agree with it?<br>What was cult like

about it? Who were the alleged ego trippers? <br>From

what I've seen, Guruji neither expects or demands that

people bow. People do it because they want to, because

they love Guruji, and it makes them feel

good!<br><br><br>If you want my opinion, go to mysore and study with

Guruji. Dont study with someone else there because its

cheaper. Dont listen to grouchy people that talk smack

about Guruji, instead align yourself with the majority,

who find practicing and spending time with Guruji to

be a wonderful, positive life changing experience

which seems to keep them going back to Mysore over and

over again.

[Guest guest]

j4a, you seem to have a deeply personal animosity towards Pattabhi Jois. Have

you studied with him and did you have a bad experience? Who is your guru

now?<br><br>Yours,<br>Frank

[Guest guest]

The advice that someone who practises astanga

yoga should better study with one of Guruji's

students, rather than with the man himself, is absolutely

ridiculous. Also, the remark that Pattabhi Jois is not well

liked among the locals in Mysore is insulting, and

strange enough to make by a person who runs an

informational website about astanga yoga. The fact that

Pattabhi Jois keeps falling asleep in a corner of his

shala shouldn't be so unusual for a man of his age,

should it? - remember: Pattabhi Jois is 86 years

old!<br><br>We owe this man our daily practice - and so much

more. Why such venom and complete disrespect towards

him, then?

[Guest guest]

frkeen<br><br>Assuming that what passes for

knowledge about yoga on this board and the Ashtanga Yoga

website comes from Jois, then my mission is to expose the

misinformation, egoism, fraud, and manipulation that lies behind

the figurehead. There is nothing personal: it's all

about Truth, the uncovering of untruth and making

enquiries into the reasons behind those

untruths.<br><br>Funny, how the more I post on these subjects, the more

courage people find to come out and tell their own

stories of abuse or question whether this ashtanga

vinyasa yoga thing is a cult.<br><br>There is one aspect

that is crystal clear - Patanjali would have nothing

to do with the statements that Jois allegedly has

made regarding this two-stage approach to yoga. The

Jois version of Ashtanga Yoga is most definitely not

the yoga of Patanjali. It lacks the elegance,

completeness, interdependence and mutual supportedness, balance

and serenity of the eight angas of

Patanjali.<br><br>Of course, there is always the possibility that Jois

has been misinterpreted and misrepresented by all

those lost fanatics that have a substance abuse problem

with prana and endorphins and whose egos have become

out of control because of that self abuse.<br><br>j4a

[Guest guest]

Dear Shining Skull<br><br>I am sorry that you

found the advice I gave to study with one of Pattabhi

Jois' senior students, rather than with the man himself

so strange. This advice comes from someone who has

studied both with Pattabhi and with a number of his

senior western students. It is not meant to be anything

other than one man's opinion, and you can choose to

differ, but branding it as ridiculous is insulting to

me... <br>The reason why I hold this position is that I

have learned far more from teachers like John Scott

and Graeme Northfield than I have from Pattabhi Jois,

who gives much less in the way of adjustments or

instructions than his western students. Ultimately teaching is

about communication.<br>Also, contrary to what you seem

to believe, I do not have any animosity toward

Pattabhi Jois. I respect him for having brought ashtanga

to the western world and for having been the teacher

of some of the best teachers I have studied with.

But I do believe that someone who regularly falls

asleep during class cannot be regarded as teaching

properly. In any other setting, the advice would be to

either cut down on the work hours, or retire. This is

not an expression of venom. It is merely an attempt

to see the situation as it exists at present.

Furthermore, I do not believe that it is normal or reasonable

to have to queue up to two hours to practice.

Finally, I do not agree with the 'star system' that has

been built around him. Thus, I am not prepared to pay

the outrageous amount of money that he demands for a

mat space in his shala.<br>As far as I am concerned,

it is time for Pattabhi Jois to retire and let his

senior students(including, of course, his grandson) to

carry on the flame of ashtanga yoga. After all, it is

rather unusual for a man of 87 to be working such hours,

no?<br>As for your remark that it is insulting to mention

that Pattabhi Jois is not particularly liked locally,

I can only suggest that you come to Mysore and talk

to some of the local (Indian) residents of the city.

Yes, I run an informational yoga website, (ashtanga

and other types as well), but I am certainly not in

the business of publishing gossip.<br>I wrote the

last email in response to someone's genuine and valid

concerns not out of maliciousness towards Pattabhi Jois,

but out of a desire to

inform.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Christophe Mouze<br>Editor Yoga

Online<br>Ireland, but

currently studying yoga in

Mysore<br><a href=http://www.yogamagazine.net

target=new>http://www.yogamagazine.net</a>

[Guest guest]

Christophe,<br><br>Thank you for sharing your perspective. It is refreshing to

hear a dissenting opinion based on first hand experience and expressed with

civility.

[Guest guest]

Christophe:<br><br>I agree with elegant h: your posts and online articles have

been most helpful. Perhaps we will meet someday in Mysore.<br><br>Peace and

Good,<br>Homer

[Guest guest]

j4a, <br><br>If you are interested in the truth

then why don't you study with Pattabhi Jois yourself

before you judge his teaching? You can't judge someone

fairly just from what you read on a board like

this.<br><br>Yours,<br>FK

[Guest guest]

I doubt if there are two "been to Mysore, got the

Tshirt" Guruji devotees who share the same exact opinion

of what it means to study at Mysore. That's my

opinion from what I've read here, and from all those

satanga yogis I've met over the years. Ambivilence is not

uncommon, even among those who can do advanced A and have

high regard for Guruji. These same people also have

their reservations.<br><br>I was there for Guruji's

last tour and had a lot of reservations just to plunk

down the money to study for a week. On the whole, the

xxperience was worth my investment, though I have to say I

feel I learn more from watching others than I did from

Guruji or Sarath. This isn't meant to be a criticism,

because many might agree with me that the entire

experience of going to Mysore to study, being with Guruji

and Sharath and sharing the energy of that with

others is where it's at. There is more to inspiration

that ujayi breathing, and perhaps in one light the

Guru principle is a hucksterism, on the other hand it

does produce genuine results on many levels of growth.

There's a story in the Mahabharata about just that!

[Guest guest]

j4a:<br><br>Your post said "It lacks the

elegance, completeness, interdependence and mutual

supportedness, balance and serenity of the eight angas of

Patanjali."<br><br>It is interesting that your experience of Ashtanga

is the complete opposite of mine. When I see the

primary series well done, I find it elegant in its

efficient use of energy and momentum.<br><br>I have found

interdependence with teachers and other practioners. The serenity

felt in a moving meditation has deepened over

time.<br><br>I have been blessed with excellent teachers. i am

thankful that this system exists with integrity.<br><br>It

is obviously not a good system for you.....nor is it

for everybody. <br><br>Maybe over time I will get a

"substance abuse problem with prana"........But I doubt it

if i persist with excellent teachers.<br><br>All for

now from the opposite sid of the same

coin,<br><br>Sid

[Guest guest]

I had pretty much given up on reading & posting

here, but I happened to notice Will's questions and

they seem to have prompted some real and constructive

discussion for a change, so I thought I would post the mail

I sent him:<br><br>I just saw your message on the

ashtanga board today - I admire your courage

asking serious & honest questions in that zoo, I used to

read & post there regularly but have almost entirely

given up on it. <br><br>I'm in Mysore at the moment,

having practiced for a few years before I got round to

coming here. I am definitely finding it worthwhile.

<br><br>A lot of being here is "darshan". Pattabhi Jois is

one of the greatest living yoga masters, we are

fortunate to still have the chance just to spend time

around the guy and we probably won't be able to do so

for much longer. You might regard that as a cultish

view, I don't. I don't view yoga as a western-style

commercial transaction where I think about what I'm

"getting" for my money. If you don't believe in the concept

of darshan then you might have a different opinion.

But if you're serious about studying Indian

philosophy you might want to give it some thought.

<br><br>Don't forget that, although Pattabhi Jois has a

remarkable level of energy and works amazingly hard for a

man of 86, he is an old man. He doesn't have the

energy or the strength he had 20-30 years ago when he

was teaching the likes of David Swenson or Richard

Freeman - sadly for us, our generation has missed the

chance those guys had. It's true that he doesn't adjust

male students much, I think mainly because he doesn't

feel he has the strength to - so he leaves that part

of the work to his grandson Sharath who is a

*superb* yoga teacher. (Although actually, KPJ adjusted me

a lot when I was at his workshop in NY last year).

Sharath's adjustments are the best I have ever had. I have

made more progress in a month here with him than I

would expect to make in a year at home. I didn't expect

that - I used to think "how can some 30 year old

possibly know more than some of the senior western

teachers, just because he's Pattabhi's grandson?", but now

actually I think he might. <br><br>Yes, you will get

talked at more and learn more so-called "technique" from

senior western teachers, some of whome are very good.

What you can learn here is that "technique" and

"alignment" and all that western iyengar-influenced bullshit

aren't all that important, what matters is the effort

involved and the energy changes that come from putting

yourself into the fire on a daily basis. <br><br>Morning

classes are indeed all westerners, Guruji & Sharath teach

their Indian students separately. <br><br>Yes, you

might have a long wait to practice. A lot of students

want to practice here, the shala is small (ten

students at a time), and KPJ operates a pretty fair "first

come first served" queue system for everybody except

long term students who he knows - some of them get

somewhat earlier practice slots than newcomers, which I

have no problem with (except when they come and sit

right in front of me!) What else where you planning to

do at 6 to 8 o'clock in the morning? <br><br>There

are other good yoga teachers in Mysore. BNS Iyengar

teaches basically the same system as Pattabhi Jois and is

also a direct student of Krishnamacharya; a student of

his called Sheshadri also has a few western students;

and there is a younger guy here called Venkatesh who

teaches his own approach and is supposed to be good. Mr

Iyengar and Venkatesh (or his wife) teach pranyama,

theory and chanting classes as well as asana.

<br><br>Feel free to think that I've come to Mysore and become

a cult victim. I don't think so though. I'm going

to be here until about March - maybe we'll have a

chance to talk about some of this stuff over a chai some

time if you do decide to come. <br><br>(My online

Mysore Diary is at

<a href=http://www.alanlittle.org/yoga/mysorediary.html

target=new>http://www.alanlittle.org/yoga/mysorediary.html</a> )

[Guest guest]

Thank you for taking the time to compose and post

your note and diary. I enjoy the rascally nature of

this board, it reminds me not to take my practice too

seriously, while being serious about practice. The insight

into your Mysore visit will I think aid my own

practice, so forget about all the politics that seem to

creep in among you second-series guys, from me Thank

You for some sense of what it is about with Mr. Jois.