antidepressants

[Guest guest]

This is a subject that I've been thinking about

lately. As of late, I know too many people who are on

some sort of antidepressant and this raises many

issues for me. I'd like to hear other opinions on this.

Do you think antidepressants have an impact, great

or small, on spiritual evolution? Many people who

really aren't in a crisis situation take them just so

they don't have to experience a blue mood every now &

then. While the antidepressants do succeed in keeping

one from feeling sad, is there a greater "spiritual"

cost to taking these pill?

[Guest guest]

I certainly think so. I was put on

antidepressants for Severe Inattentive ADD a couple of years ago.

I didn't take them for very long. I found

visualization difficult, my ability to concentrate on all

senses at once was completely destroyed and my

creativity was also hampered. While I found it much easier

to quiet my thoughts I didn't "get anything" out of

my meditation.<br><br>I'm not sure that your

"average" individual would necessarily notice these changes

though - it was only during meditation or creative

practices that I really felt the difference.

[Guest guest]

Have not used antidepressants myself. Know many

people who do and some have tried to convince me to get

on them. Although I'm not always the most cheerful

person and seem to be dealing with unceasing problems

(isn't everyone?), my attitude to "depression" has often

been "Who has time for it, there's so much to do."

Lately I needed to take an interest my sister's

problems. She has been chronically depressed for many years

and has also been an alcoholic and had eating

disorders. When this all came to a head with self-cutting, I

started studying a lot of this stuff. (She's doing

better, had some treatment, she and her husband have

learned a lot and are going to AA meetings). Anyway I

came to understand that a lot of people really are

"chronically depressed", whatever that means, and that drug

treatment seems to be helpful for many. I found a book

called Undoing Depression with lots of

insight.<br><br>But the reason I am replying to this is that I think

there is an idea that is overlooked. That is that while

brain chemistry can affect moods, emotions, etc., the

reverse may be true also. So while scientists may study

brain chemistry in depressed people and find how it

differs from "normal" people and how they can change it

with drugs, they may not be looking into what causes

this and whether the depression can be causing the

abnormal brain chemistry rather than the

reverse.<br><br>Of course there may be "mental issues" that need to

be addressed. But I think that a happy person

probably has different brain chemistry than a depressed

person just as a result of being happy.<br><br>I also

found that Gabriel Cousens (author of Conscious Eating)

has a new book exploring the connnection between diet

and depression and how to use diet instead of drugs

as a treatment. It is called Depression-Free for

Life.<br><br>I would think that yoga practice would be helpful

as well.<br><br>I recently put up a page on my

website listing a few of the books I have come across in

studying mental

health:<br><a href=http://www.ionet.net/~tslade/mhbooks.htm

target=new>http://www.ionet.net/~tslade/mhbooks.htm</a><br><br>One book I

include there is The Art of Happiness by

the Dalai Lama.<br><br>"Don't worry, be happy." Meher

Baba<br><br>"Trip truly and freak freely." A friend from long ago

[Guest guest]

clk0893: I think it depends on why they are

taking the pill. As you say, many people just take

antidepressants to avoid the natural sadness caused by

unfortunate situations, and I think these people are doing

themselves a disservice. But for someone who suffers from

clinical depression it may be necessary, at least to

initially pull them out of it. Clinical depression

paralyzes the will and sucks all the life out of the

sufferer, making it necessary for an outside agent to

intervene, though it may be that talk therapy would be as

effective as medication (my understanding is that a

combination of the two works best for severe

cases).<br><br>TLSlade: I think you're right about emotions and brain

chemistry. In fact, cognitive therapists claim that patients

who undergo cognitive therapy end up showing similar

changes in brain chemistry as patients who undergo

medication. I think the causal relationships flow in both

directions.<br><br>I recently read a book about brainwave biofeedback,

"A Symphony in the Brain" by Jim Robbins, which

claimed that neurofeedback can help resolve many

psychological disorders like ADD, depression, even epilepsy,

with no side effects (you're actually training your

brain to operate in a more healthy way on it's own).

Another interesting book is "Plato not Prozac! Applying

Philosophy to Everyday Problems" by Lou Marinoff. It's an

introduction to philosophical counseling which uses philosophy

to help people critically analyze and resolve their

problems.

[Guest guest]

TL<br><br>Patanjali seems to agree with your

ideas that mental states and brain chemistry are

related and that mental states can cause abnormal brain

chemistry as well as the other way around.<br><br>'Mental

pain, depression, physical nervousness, and irregular

breathing are the symptoms of a distracted state of

mind.'<br> (Raja Yoga Sutras I. 31.)<br><br>'The mind become

clear through the cultivation of friendliness,

kindness, contentment, and indifference towards happiness,

vice and virtue.' (RY Sutras I. 33.)<br><br>'When

negative or harmful thoughts disturb the mind, they can be

overcome by constantly pondering over their

opposites.<br>' Negative thoughts and emotions, such as violence,

whether committed, abetted or caused through greed, anger

or delusion, and whether present in mild, medium or

great intensity, result in endless pain and ignorance.

Thus there is the necessity for pondering over the

opposites' (RY Sutras II.33-34)<br><br>'Through the constant

replacement of disturbing thought waves by ones of control,

the mind is transformed and gains mastery of itself.'

(RY Sutras III. 9.)<br><br>' By this (i.e. what has

been said in the previous sutras) changes in the form,

time and condition of the elements and sense organs

are explained. (RY Sutras III.13)<br><br>'The cause

of various transformations is the different natural

laws.' (RY Sutras III. 15.)<br> <br>The idea of AA is to

gain perspective on the events of one's life, the

emotions arising from those events, and to gain an

awareness of one's spiritual identity. These processes

entail seeing things with a different, increasingly more

open attitude which will have the result of restoring

brain chemistry, quietening the mind and revealing the

divinity within.<br><br>Omprem

[Guest guest]

"Plato not Prozac! "<br><br>I like the title "Pranayama not Prozac!"

[Guest guest]

It is a fact that antidepressants play a

significant role in helping people battle depression,

obsessive compulstive disorder, or attention deficit

disorder. And mental health professionals advise medication

in conjunction with therapy (usually cognitive).

That said, I personally feel if antidepressants helps

that person function, feel and think better then it

assists that person's growth. There is a growing minority

of doctors and therapists that take use more

traditional forms of mental health treatment in conjunction

with vippasana type meditation. Some of these include

Dr. Jeffrey Schwart of UCLA (author of "Brain Lock").

He uses mindfulness meditation as part of his

successful OCD treatment. I should note that Dr. Schwartz

likens the use of medication as water wings, that is,

medication helps out the cognitive aspect of therapy.

Another mental health professional using mindfulness

meditation is Tara Bennett-Goleman (author of "Emotional

Alchemy). Both Dr. Schwartz and Ms. Goleman have years of

study and practice in mindfulness meditation and

buddhist philosophy.

[Guest guest]

I forgot to add another book, Shadow Syndrome, by Dr. Jeff Ratey. He provides

some excellent insight into that area where spirituality, mental health, and

medication meet. Really great reading.

[Guest guest]

Slade and the others:<br>1. Chronic Depression

(in it's several manifestations and patterns) is a

disease with severe physical symptoms as well as those of

altered mood. It is also a degenerative condition since

it's symptoms cause the illness to worsen over

time.<br><br>2. It is INSULTING to imply that a person who

suffers from chronic depression has caused the physical

illness themselves by just being sad or in a bad mood all

the time.<br><br>3. It is even more INSULTING to tell

a person who suffers from chronic depression to

"Don't worry, be happy!" or to "Trip truly and freak

freely." Other common suggestions - "Take a walk on the

beach!Do something that makes you happy!Don't be so

sad!Try to see the good things in life." If you have

ever suffered from the disease, you would know how

moronic and ignorant these and other like statements

sound.<br><br>4. Depressed people are not depressed by choice,

they are sick people who need treatment - just like if

someone has a disease like, say, Juvenile Diabetes - not

their fault, not caused by liking sugar too much,

responds to treatment. Chemical imbalance or the

propensity for chemical imbalance is physiological and

genetic, not caused by a bad personality as most crap

literature on the subject matter implies.<br><br>5.

Depressed people are often confused by their moods and do

not understand that they have a disease that is

treatable and often self-medicate. Hence, many drug

addicts, alchoholics and chronic overeaters (sugar

addicts) learn after getting clean, sober or abstinent

that they have actually been suffering from a

debilitating and degenerative disease called Chronic

Depression all along and it actually responds to treatament.

Many depressed people spend years and years feeling

guilty and ashamed of their feelings because they think

they are doing something wrong and should be able to

make themselves happy.<br><br>6. WHO CARES if they

have a chemical imbalance before or after they get

depressed? What is the point in researching this issue? The

fact is that people with Chronic Clinical Depression

generally and almost always suffer from brain chemistry

imbalances that get worse over time without

treatment.<br><br>7. Antidepressants DO NOT KEEP A PERSON FROM FEELING

SAD. SADNESS is NOT DEPRESSION. It is true that anti

depressants are used by people who may not have reached a

depressive crisis and only have low-grade feelings of

melancholy and hopelessness, but maybe they need it. Maybe

they ask for the medication because they need it.

Maybe they don't. This doesn't discount the fact that

most antidepressant medication is very effective in

the treatment of a serious, LIFE THREATENING DISEASE.

Also, it is only one of many, many forms of treatment

for depression. If a person is taking medication for

depression and it limits their normal range of emotions,

then they probably should not be taking it and might

not even need it. There are many medications and

treatments to choose from.<br><br>8. Finally, it has been

discovered that such chemical imbalances can be healed over

time, maybe not fully, but at least partially. Balance

can be restored to the lymphatic system and

metabolism. But medication is important if treatment is

warranted - just like JV Diabetes.<br><br>FBL

[Guest guest]

Also,<br><br>Most people recovering from

depression need couseling to help cope with the lifetime of

misconceptions and ignorance they have been confronted with. The

books and therapists people have mentioned here are

mostly pretty good. Any kind of talk therapy helps

people learn not to feel guilty and ashamed for having

depression -emotional habits developed over years of not

being treated for the disease and assuming that there

is "something wrong with them." Talk therapy for

people with depression is really helpful to learn ways

to cope with the general ignorance about the disease

that pervades our society. It also helps the person

deal with some of the more moronic and insulting

attitudes people have about the disease of Depression that

can be hurtful and cause a general sense of mistrust

and lonliness.<br><br>Depression is a

life-threatening illness and should be taken seriously. Yoga will

not cure depression. Yoga will help treat the

symptoms as will a properly prescribed medication and a

good diet.<br><br>FBL

[Guest guest]

FBL<br><br>I can see that the subject of chronic

depression is important to you. So I am not trying to

antagonize you or minimize the severity and potential

life-threatening nature of chronic depression when I say that Yoga

can be instrumental in helping that disease as well

as its symptoms. Yoga (including pranayama,

appropriate diet, and meditation) is effective against a long

list of diseases that western medicine does not yet

have a good handle on: migraine and other headaches,

fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, allergies, asthma, as

well as depression.<br><br>Also. some of these

conditions, including chronic depression, MAY be the result

of an episode of kundalini rising inadvertently. So

this is a possibility that should be investigated (and

one doesn't have to be involved in spiritual

activities for this to happen). If this is the case, then

the suggestions about breathing, walking along the

beach and such are goods ones in that they help to

ground the person and stop the kundalini episode. These

suggestions would also help to eliminate any stress factors

that are contributing to these diseases.<br><br>Yours

in respectful and peaceful coexistence<br><br>Omprem

[Guest guest]

you did not get her message. She clearly stated

it HELPS with the SYMPTOMS. Which also implies it

does NOT solve the original problem (unless many

factors in a persons life came together - diet habits and

much more for a complete almost miraculous rehaul).

Most people could think they're cured, because

a)things are so much better than before by comparison

b)and they may NOT KNOW WHAT IS DEPRESSION

FREE.<br><br>If yoga completely cured everything you read in the

yoga journal that it does, none of us on this board

would have problems- extra weight, back problems,

etcetera, nevermind the mental disorders flying around

(sic). The point is it helps. So does a better diet.

Regular sleep. Positive thinking, which in its turn also

is an insult to a depressed person because how do

you GET THERE from depression. But if you COULD

MUSTER a positive mindset you would feel better- who

wouldn't?<br><br>The problem with depression is the the person feels

to hopeless to start or stick with anything - and

that could include yoga. Then yoga cannot help them.

And if they did stay with it the relief may be for as

long as the dopamine or whatever etc remains in the

brain.<br><br>Ultimately all the things you say CAN help - whatever it

takes to MOVE THE ENERGY. But those who have the

propensity for this paralizing depression that causes

blocked energy will keep coming back to the same

challenge. As opposed to those who do yoga for its own sake.

[Guest guest]

A thought about causes vs. symptoms: people who

have suffered from clinical depression tend to be

vulnerable to recurring depression even if they have

successfully recovered with the help of antidepressants and

therapy. So even if such a person is not in a state of

depression at a given moment (brain chemistry is relatively

but precariously balanced), a negative life

situation/change in diet or exercise regimen/change of season, etc

may be sufficient to trigger another bout of clinical

depression (brain chemistry becomes imbalanced, cycle

resumes). For someone who struggles with recurring

intermitant depression preventative strategies like cognitive

therapy and physical exercise can have tremendous value

in preventing symptoms from potentially avalanching

into causes of recurring clinical depression (which

isn't to say they're a guarantee, depression can recur

for many different reasons).

[Guest guest]

Hello FBL,<br><br>Thanks for your post. I am new

to the subject of depression and have lots to learn.

You make many important points. This was the kind of

stuff that I learned from Richard O'Connor's book

Undoing Depression. My sister's two brothers, her sister,

and her husband were all pretty ignorant on these

issues. My other sister once made the comment "What does

she have to be depressed about, lots of people have

real problems." And her husband was anti-Prozac,

thinking she needed to get off of it. The book helped us

all to better understanding. The misunderstanding

that the depressed encounter is certainly a

significant issue. I did not mean to sound insensitive. Not

sure why I included my little "quotations" but not

meant to be directed towards the chronically

depressed.<br><br>I agree with most of what you are saying except

that I wouldn't say "what's the point of researching

it" about anything. Until we know everything (which

we never will), we don't really know anything.

<br><br>One interesting thing I learned was that

psychiatrists mainly prescribe drugs while the psychologists

are the talkers. (I know that may be an

over-simplification). I have a friend whose father is a psychologist.

He has talked with him a lot about this stuff and he

said that the talking therapy can be kind of like a

surgeon operating on a tumor, but with words. Going in

and trying to find out where the "mental tumors" are

and extracting them. fascinating stuff. There are

lots of parallels between physical and mental health,

but since the mental realm is invisible it is more

overlooked and harder to understand. <br><br>Also, I meant

to comment back in our Sarno discussion that I liked

your comment that people's backs are a lot stronger

than they realize, with the bones extending several

inches into the body.<br><br>Anyway, sorry for any

moronic-ness.

[Guest guest]

Slade - <br>First I would lke to point out that I

do NOT think you are a moron, just in case you

garnered that conclusion from my posting. My impression is

that you far from being a moron. People who make

comments like your sister make me sad (an emotion) and

clearly do not have the least understanding of the

disease that is depression (not an emotion.)<br><br>One

can investigate which state causes which state - but

it is always going to come down to the chicken and

the egg. (see Mark Epstein's "Going to Pieces Without

Falling Apart" pop psychology for the millenium) What is

most important is to find out how to treat the person

in the here and now - deal directly with the problem

at hand. The rest is for pondering. Some folks

believe that it isn't even important to search into the

past to uncover "causes" and past traumas because you

can do just as well if not better dealing with the

present. Looking backwards for patterns is OK though, very

helpful.<br><br>Talk and no-talk therapy - I like to refer to it as

"showing up therapy" because who made the rule that you

have to talk anyway? - it's really great for everybody

to do and if I could afford it, I would go through

my life employing an entire team of psychiatrists

(who can prescribe medication and diagnose mental

illness) and psychologists (who get paid to keep their

mouths shut and listen to my problems) to help me

out.<br><br>Regarding someone's post about chronic lingering sadness...

There are types of clinical depression typified by such

a state and one type is called chronic low-grade

depression. One way that psychiatrists help people discover

patterns in their mood is to rate depression on a scale pf

one to ten, one being 'a sense of contentment and

wellness' and ten being 'severely depressed'. Some people

have a kind of depression that is always around a

"two" level but maybe takes big dips into the

netherlands of nine and ten for periods of time. Even on

medication, this person is still always at or around a two -

that being their "threshold" level. What yoga can do

is raise the threshold level so the person can

operate at a "one" eventually. In general yoga will even

out mood swings and raise everyone's threshold. Also,

it is important to remember that yoga and T'ai Ch'i

and other such practices have a cumulative effect and

such results are going to appear sometimes quickly and

sometimes slowly.<br><br>One last thing Slade - the spine

thing - most people have the impression that the

vertabrae, especially in their necks, are very small. When

people are asked to draw what their spine looks like, it

is amazing how small they believe the bones to be

relative to the size of their bodies. The vertabrae in

your neck start at the skin in the back and go as far

forward - even further really - as where your jaw bone

turns in front of your earlobe. If you press your

fingers in the sides of your neck at the right angle, you

can actually feel where the spine goes. You can feel

the edges of the spine along the back, but really,

the meat of it goes up the center of the body. I

think that is way cool and people are always so shocked

when they find this out. They get so much more

confidence in their movement.<br><br>FBL

[Guest guest]

jmeras98, thanks for recommending Shadow

Syndromes, I'm reading it now and you're right, it is very

good.<br><br>And FBL, thanks for sharing your knowledge and

insight on the subject. I especially like the way you

decribe how yoga can affect one's

threshold.<br><br>Spunky