Guest guest Report post Posted October 27, 2004 I agree Max. I am pained. i am trying to be as soft as possible to steer the matter from personalities. I am just completing Notyotsava so that it can be posted part by part here i hope that will answer some questions and generate others. Kochu Max Dashu <maxdashu wrote: > If those practitioners >are so highly evolved they would not bother eating shit Ask Sri Ramakrishna... he and other realized beings are described as doing so during their sadhana. And some avadhutas as well. But the fixation in recent discussions about who and what is high, and who low, who sattvic and who tamasic, seems to veer toward ego-bound tendencies. In my humble opinion, obsessing about all of these distinctions distracts from the goal of love and real knowing. By the way, I am enjoying the posts commenting on Lalita Sahasranama. -- Max Dashu Suppressed Histories Archives Global Women's Studies http://www.suppressedhistories.net / Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 27, 2004 Please Om Prem; Do not be judgemental omprem <omprem wrote: Not only did this guy drink alcohol from human skulls, smoke pot, seem to meditate while covered with feces, he misuses his siddhis, one of the biggest no nos in spiritual development. He is most assuredly not a saint. He is an out-of-control, tamasic egoist who parades his siddis. Those who proclaim a saint on the basis of a few siddhis are mistaken. Omprem , swastik108@a... wrote: > In a message dated 10/26/2004 2:47:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > omprem writes: > The operative word is 'right'. Can those who are prone to > substance abuse and pollute themselves with eating human > flesh and excrement be trusted to use right reason, to choose or > to have written right scripture and to choose or be a right > master? > I mostly agree with you, but I also so not believe in absolutes being the > lowly human I am, I cannot declare any absolute right or wrong. > > I say this because in Birbhum district, West Bengal in the area known as > Tarapith a local saint is revered by the name of Bamakhepa. > > Guru Bamakhepa was a left handed Tantrik in the truest sense but also a > highly gifted Kali Sadhak. He drank alcohol from human skulls and smoked ganja > also, yet he was able to heal people with his powers as well as being gifted with > the Darshan of Ma Tara. > > He fed wild animals including Tigers by hand, he appeared to people in > visions and dreams, he healed a man after kicking him and spitting in his face, > another was healed after being strangled. Some people told me that he would > meditate whilst covered in human feces, but I don't know if this is true. Many > people were attracted by his powers and mastery of Tantrik Sadhana. He left such a > strong impression in fact, that many consider him an avatar. > > > / Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 27, 2004 I did NOT advocate "substance ABUSE" but "USE". There is a lot of difference between use and abuse. Further, I am almost a sleeping member and its only because I felt need to correct that I stepped in. Maybe I should have done it before. Please be rest assured. I will. You are entitled to your beliefs as others are entitled to theirs. Plese be civil. This is a request to ALL including you. omprem <omprem wrote: Perhaps your surprise is because I do not consider drinking booze, smoking pot or any other type of substance abuse to be in any way related to spiritual advancement. The notion that one can become enlightened from substance abuse is too ridiculous to even debate. But, you are entitled to your opinion and I to mine as I have repeated stated. I don't see you springing to my defense when others were attacking my beliefs and path. Why are you upset now? If you want to give tamasic people free rein on this message board that is fine with me. Just make sure that that liberty is spread evenly to those who are not tamasic and who do not view alcohol and pot and pathways to heaven. There are some nice people here but there are tamasic asuras here as well. Omprem , "kochu1tz" <kochu1tz> wrote: > > Dear Omprem: > > I am surprised at the tone and content of your recent posts. > You have been a steady person earlier. > Why this sudden aggression? > Are not other people entitled to their views also? > if you do not agree say so with authorities and not assertions. > Please understand that Hinduism takes in everything from nihilism to > everything else under the Sun. > It is not that I cannot write pages with authorities supporting what > I said. They will not be translation of translation of translation. > It will be the original in Sanskrit. I do not bother to do so > because only a few here understand Sanskrit. > Others are entitled to their views. > BTW I never said I get my inspiration from alcohol. All I meant it > was not taboo and there are authorities supporting it. I do not know > which scriptures you follow. Why not you give the quotes whether it > is a translation of translation of translation? > You saw what a member wrote? > "I know no one really cares since I have never posted before but > maybe the owners of the group might care that someone is leaving due > to the disharmony of their group." > So let's have friendly arguments. Please do not get personal. > This request is being made for the second time. Please let us have > harmony. > Love > Kochu > , "omprem" <omprem wrote: > > No offence taken. How could I could take seriously the comments of > one who gets his inspiration, his spiritual fuel from alcohol. > > Oh, well, alcohol is certainly easier and cheaper to obtain than > Kundalini. > > > Omprem > > , sankara menon > <kochu1tz wrote: > > Dear Omprem: > > Let me make it very clear we are talking of the theoretical basis > and possiblities. But what fuels me is alcohol or just theekshana > trishna is a matter very personal and not open to discussion. I am > not advocating that others do all i do nor do I take any comment > here as an advise to do as others does. > > Do not be under the impression that when u speak of one theory it > does not mean one does all that to the extreme. > > No offence intended. > > omprem <omprem wrote: > > "Can you show me one depiction of Devi without a vessal for alcohol > in her hand. Look even at the hands of Mahalakshmi as Mahishasura > mardini." > > Perhaps these are warnings not endorsements. > > The message could be that just as alcohol impairs the abilities of > the drinker, so too does imbibing Maya without reflection impair > one's ability to know the Divine directly. To see an appearance of > the Goddess is not to know her essence. > > But, hey, if you insist on using alcohol to fuel your spiritual > search that is fine with me. Just don't expect me to believe what > alcohol tells you. > > Omprem > > , sankara menon > <kochu1tz wrote: > Can you show me one depiction of Devi without a vessal for alcohol > in her hand. Look even at the hands of Mahalakshmi as Mahishasura > mardini. > And what does she tell mahisha? > "Garja garja kshanam Moodha, Madhu yaavat pibaamyaham".... > > > omprem <omprem wrote: > > "But alchohol is used in kaula practices - this is undenyable." > > If so, it doesn't say much about that approach. Perhaps there is no > much to be said. > But even tamasic people need a spiritual path that is suited to > them. So be it. > > Omprem > > , "Arjuna > Taradasa" > <bhagatirtha@m... wrote: > > 93 > > The case was about Sri-vidya tradition in particular. Of course > there are some traditions in hinduism that hold view expressed by > U. > But believe me, not all. > Point of view of Tantas is clearly expressed in them. There is no > need to speculate around - just open the book and read. Then go and > ask representatives of tantric lineages and U find that thier views > are corresponding. > > Ur depiction of alchohol`s effect perhaps is based on Ur > experience. > That is valid for U but not necessarily for everyone. > > Of course Tantras condemn pashu-pana, excessive drinking. Also > drinking for pleasure is not sadhana. But alchohol is used in kaula > practices - this is undenyable. If U accept kaula-mata at least as > one of possible ways towards Truth, U have to agree. > > A. > > , "omprem" > <omprem wrote: > > Taking alcohol is tamasic. It slows and clouds the thought, not to > mention destroying brain cells. Perspective is lost. Discrimination > and dispassion are lost. > > Drinking in any quantity is in the same category as recreational > drugs. 'Information' gleaned while under the influence is > misinformation and a hindrance to spiritual development. > Of course, at the time such 'information' will appear as a > revelation but it is flawed and as such to be avoided. / Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 27, 2004 Cathie, My girl, you could not have said it better! I hope with your wise,honest and truthful post that this topic will cease to be...letting harmony envelope us all. Peace, Lotus_Flowers --- While you are free to your attitudes and strong feelings on this, I personally feel you are being blinded by your passion on this matter, and unfair. Peace, Cathie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 27, 2004 I did not make the statement that you attribute to me. , sankara menon <kochu1tz> wrote: > its only through ritual one can reach the non-ritualistic state. > > namasivayam <nama_sivam@h...> wrote: > shakthi is cosmic vibration > People confused with ritual rather than spiritual > > namasivayam > > - > omprem > > "Can you show me one depiction of Devi without a vessal for > alcohol in her hand. Look even at the hands of Mahalakshmi as > Mahishasura mardini." > > > > > Sponsor > > > > Links > > > / > > > > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 27, 2004 As you asked, I will tell you that I do not drink alcohol, take recreational drugs, use caffeine in any form, or sugar. I do not abuse food or sex. In addition, I do not eat onions, garlic, hot spices or meat. What else is on your list? There is no such thing as taking only a little alcohol or a little of any of the other items you mention, just as there is no such thing as being only a little pregnant. To take any of the above is to lock yourself into Maya and disturb your physical and astral equilibrium, and impairing your ability to attain Self-realization. If Self-realization was so easy that it could had while snacking on chocolates and sipping wine, there would be a lot more Self-realized people on the planet. But there aren't. Perhaps you and the others who are excited by these comments should stop to think about the comments themselves instead of reacting to the messenger. Killing the messenger is the easy way out. Anger at being outed is directed away from resolution to change and toward the messenger. Omprem , SophiasHeaven@a... wrote: > In a message dated 10/26/2004 8:54:48 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > omprem writes: > > > Perhaps your surprise is because I do not consider drinking > > booze, smoking pot or any other type of substance abuse to be > > in any way related to spiritual advancement. > > I don't think it's fair, Omprem, to categorically label everyone who ever > drinks any alcohol, or takes any kind of consciousness altering substance, as > somebody who abuses substance. > > All sorts of people have a glass of wine each day with dinner, for instance. > It may not be a path to spiritual advancement, but it does not make them > substance abusers, and it's certainly not going to hinder their advancement. A > substance abuser is somebody who ABUSES a substance, not one who USES it. > There's a difference between a substance User and a substance Abuser in most > developed countries who have centers to help people break the chains of substance > abuse, INCLUDING ABUSE OF FOOD by overeating and getting Fat. Now there is a > clear example. A FAT person may be somebody who abuses food, and by extension > would you say that because some become fat eating food, that food is evil and > people who eat it are Abusers of that substance? It seems like an > uncharacteristic lack of distinction on your part, to fail to see this. > > And what about caffeine that is in some teas. There are those who would > consider caffeine a drug. Do you drink black tea? I avoid substances with > caffeine in them and do not drink black tea that has caffeine in it. Even green tea > is High in caffeine, which is a drug. > > Sugar is an addictive substance that alters the body chemistry as well, and > can lead to mental instability. But is every person who takes a little sugar > with their caffein tea a substance abuser. > > A sex addict, for instance, is not the same as somebody who does not abstain > from sex. > > If somebody is using alcohol irresponsibly and getting drunk, that's > different from another person who is very conscious about their use of a substance, > who uses it in moderation. > > Even if it is not the one thing they do that leads to spiritual advancement, > it certainly doesn't make them worthy of being called a substance abuser. > > We have clinics in America for substance abuse, and a person who drinks a > glass of wine on occasion with their meal, does NOT qualify as a person who > abuses substance. > > You seem to be lumping everybody who's lips touch anysubstance, immediately > into the category of a "substance abuser" -- > > I'm thinking you must be just upset and over-reacting to this topic, because > if you live in a town of 900,000 people you must know that some of them will > drink a glass of wine with a meal on occasion. > > It seems to me you have demonized certain substances and the people who use > them, responsibly or un. It seems you have lumped all people who let a little > alcohol cross their lips in one category: of lowlifes who are not worth the > time or effort. > > While you are free to your attitudes and strong feelings on this, I > personally feel you are being blinded by your passion on this matter, and unfair. > > Peace, > Cathie > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
