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Ya know, in March, 2000 I was writing to Harsha privately, and I

explained to him that I rarely post to his list because I felt like my

perverse sense of humor and unique perspectives are unwelcome here. I

prefer not to go where I am not appreciated.

 

Harsha responded to reassure me that I was welcome... so I began to

participate.. occasionally.. cautiously. He said to me:

>You are welcome to say or post anything on the list that you

>please.

 

No restrictions. Silly me, I took him at his word... I guess he wrote

that, before you became co-moderator.

 

I guess it never occurred to you, that you have just made comments that

show disrespect to *my* religion... BDSM Shamanism.. over some humor that

was more innocuous than the average Calvin Klein ad or music video.

Recently on TV there have been adverts for a movie called "Tom cats" that

has more BDSM in it than I'd thought I'd see on TV. The trailer for the

film has bondage, Dominatrixes and clearly implied torture.. it is rated

"all audiences." Look for yourself.

http://www.mediatrip.com/tomcats/sneak/index.html

 

I have been expressing myself on the internet and in other media for

long enough, I know where the line is, between what is censorable,

according to normal social standards.. and I did not cross it.

 

Poor Gloria.. your mind is in a bondage far more restrictive than

anything I would do to someone. What is it, that you are afraid of, really?

That the Harsha list will get rejected by , next? Hmm.. that

would be ironic, but I don't think that is likely. So, what is it? You

project your fear onto me, and try to control what I do.. that may be

easier than dealing with your fear, but do you really think that will work?

 

I have looked at the list guidelines, and I see nothing in it, that

would move you to want to silence me, as you are doing. Quite the opposite.

It says:

>How beautiful the variety of expressions in so many different traditions!

>We embrace this variety with great joy and in fellowship in a.

 

You do not seem to be embracing the variety I manifest, with joy, or

seeing beauty in it. It is there.. Why are you are not seeing it? Where is

the fellowship?

>No religion or teacher or tradition has a monopoly on the Essential Truth

>of Reality which is Our Own Nature. In this context, a

>focuses on the aspirations and experiences of individuals on the spiritual

>path.

 

I expressed my experience, as an individual.

> Everyone interested in any of the Shiva and Shakti traditions, and the

> related yogic and tantric paths

 

That would be me.. :)

>as well as those practicing primarily the cognitive methods of the pure

>nondual teachings of great Jnanis such as Ramana Maharshi are welcome to

>join. The discussions are typically expected to focus on Self-Realization,

>Kundalini Shakti and Its Manifestations,

 

Yup.

>God-Realization, the Goddess, Enlightenment, and various types of Samadhis

>(Savikalpa and Nirvikalpa). Discussion of various teachers and teachings

>can also be enriching as long as there is mutual respect and a feeling of

>amity in the conversation.

 

Yup. I was respectful.. I am being respectful.. I am not feeling

respected.

> Humor and poetry and other artistic expressions of the spiritual life

> are encouraged and supported.

 

Humor.. yup... but I am not feeling supported..

 

Lobster is right.. it is time for me to go back to activism. This is

one of many signs that are coming up, lately.

 

If, your reminder about disrespectful comment about a religion, refers

to my saying Allah is female, then you have really misread me. Realizing

that, was the only way I could find respect for a religion that treats

women worse than cattle. Do you know what happens to women in Muslim

countries, these days? Do you know what is occurring in Afghanistan? Open

your eyes.

 

http://www.llamarose.com/women.html

http://www.rawa.org/women4.htm

http://www.phrusa.org/campaigns/afghanistan/index.html

http://www.rawa.org/haircut.htm

http://www.rawa.org/rules.htm

 

No, I don't have any questions.. only sadness.

blessings..

 

At 11:56 AM 4/22/01, you wrote:

>Am CC'ing to you in case you don't read the list digest that often...

>this was just posted.

>

>

>Dear Angelique

>

>One of the reasons for creating different lists is to allow places

>for different preferences. If anyone would read what the list focus

>is from the description, they would certainly not expect to read a

>message on a topic like bondage. This list is open to all ages, and

>is not restricted to adults. We are not even R-rated, let alone X!

>Comments that may be seen as disrespectful of any religion are not

>in harmony with the list atmosphere, either. The moderators think it

>should be already clear that this would not be considered an

>appropriate message here. But if you have any questions, you are

>welcome to ask for clarification about those guidelines.

>

>Gloria

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About where to go as far as are concerned?

 

It is actually very simple.

In Victoria we have a street where there is a whole variety of places and

stores to go:

An Indian Arts store

A small Sally Anne type of place

Porn and Bondage Tools store

An Outdoors Store

A small Furniture store

Oriental Artefacts

Hair Stylist

A Bakery Coffee Shop

Sally Anne

Dutch Pancakes place

Metaphysical books and things store

Chinese Restaurant

Alternative Hemp Clothing

Scientology

Anglican Church

A Clinique

A Posh Artsy place

Nightlife Pub

Martial Arts centre

Comics book store

Women Issues book store

A Parsonage with a little Chapel

 

Well there is no end to it, it is a long street and there are two sides to

it...

 

One can walk into any of those places, one is totally free in that, one can

say and do anything one wants in those places... nothing prevents you from

that... but....you will get flack when 'whatever you do or say', 'somehow'

does not fit.

 

There is a place for everything but one will not find everything in one

place.

 

If you want to be militant, you can of course do your militant thing in any

of those places, but the way society is structured you will soon find

yourself in another place..., there is a rather large police station higher

up on the same street....

When you later leave that place you hopefully found out that there is a

different way of meaning and doing business and you will hopefully set up a

Militancy Centre, maybe right next to the Green Peace kind of place that you

also find on that street.

 

In that street you will find partygoers and vinos, well-to-do professionals

spending their money and streetkids pleased to accept it, johns and daddies

with strollers, prostitutes and mothers with strollers (sometimes one and

the same), Franciscan monks and youthful Scientologists, volunteers and

individuals having to do community service, Hindus, Buddhists, Islamics,

Christians and people with no persuasions, pacifists and activists,

potentially you and me. The street is for everyone... Oh, and then there is

this crazy fellow who does and says anything he wants... but he is somehow

respected, him having respect in his humorous disrespect.

Some will find themselves comfortable in many stores, some just walk through

that street, window shopping and people watching.

Some engage, some disengage.

 

So, there you go...

 

Love, Wim

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Mystress Angelique Serpent wrote:

>

>Ya know, in March, 2000 I was writing to Harsha privately, and

I explained to him that I rarely post to his list because I felt like

my perverse sense of humor and unique perspectives are unwelcome here.

I prefer not to go where I am not appreciated.

 

Harsha responded to reassure me that I was welcome... so I

began to participate.. occasionally.. cautiously. He said to me:

 

You are welcome to say or post anything on the list that you

please.

 

No restrictions. Silly me, I took him at his word... I guess

he wrote that, before you became co-moderator.

 

Snip -

 

Dear list,

 

Do we have to test to see which way the wind blows every time we post

here? Do we have to come from a 'politically correct' viewpoint or

religion before we can be accepted here? Or have we become more like

the scribes and pharisees that Jesus so roundly denounced?

 

The list guidelines purport to respect all paths. Let that be so. This

universe is vast beyond our intellectual powers to comprehend. Each

one of us is dropped into this realm to play in the neverending story

of life.

 

I have found Mystress Angelique Serpent to be a gentle, playful,

openhearted, and enlightened being. That her path is so different from

mine makes no difference to me. Her courage to be honest with herself

and her willingness to be open to what the universe has to offer has

inspired many to find honesty and courage in thier own quest for

awakening.

 

There truly is a peace that passes all understanding. We may and do

have to traverse and endure many things to find that peace. Do not ask

another to endure what you have endured. Rather, be open to the

understanding that the universal peace and love is available to all.

 

Love eternal - Michael

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Namaste All,

 

 

The problem with bondage, depravity, distorted tantra, sexual

gymnastics, etc is they are a diversion.

It is not that I am judging what is right or wrong. What is an

impediment to liberation is the forming of new and powerful samskaras

or tendencies. These odd behaviours do not help, in fact they continue

to reinforce the senses, which in essence are the cause of our

bondage. It is the senses that keep us on planet earth, there is no

moksha until they are risen above.

Most of the practitioners of these odd behaviours do not follow a path

of advaita or non dual knowledge, in its truest sense. They are

attached to experiences and see them as being the 'be all', when the

'be all', is beyond all experiences.

The preamble to this list covers the teachings of Ramana Maharshi, who

taught 'Who am I?', not what am I and what can I experience? There are

other lists that accomodate all these sensual diversions. However I am

prepared to debate any point on them here.

 

Om Namah Sivaya......Tony.

 

 

 

 

, "Michael Read" <maread@i...> wrote:

> Mystress Angelique Serpent wrote:

> >

> >Ya know, in March, 2000 I was writing to Harsha privately, and

> I explained to him that I rarely post to his list because I felt

like

> my perverse sense of humor and unique perspectives are unwelcome

here.

> I prefer not to go where I am not appreciated.

>

> Harsha responded to reassure me that I was welcome... so I

> began to participate.. occasionally.. cautiously. He said to me:

>

> You are welcome to say or post anything on the list that you

> please.

>

> No restrictions. Silly me, I took him at his word... I guess

> he wrote that, before you became co-moderator.

>

> Snip -

>

> Dear list,

>

> Do we have to test to see which way the wind blows every time we

post

> here? Do we have to come from a 'politically correct' viewpoint or

> religion before we can be accepted here? Or have we become more like

> the scribes and pharisees that Jesus so roundly denounced?

>

> The list guidelines purport to respect all paths. Let that be so.

This

> universe is vast beyond our intellectual powers to comprehend. Each

> one of us is dropped into this realm to play in the neverending

story

> of life.

>

> I have found Mystress Angelique Serpent to be a gentle, playful,

> openhearted, and enlightened being. That her path is so different

from

> mine makes no difference to me. Her courage to be honest with

herself

> and her willingness to be open to what the universe has to offer has

> inspired many to find honesty and courage in thier own quest for

> awakening.

>

> There truly is a peace that passes all understanding. We may and do

> have to traverse and endure many things to find that peace. Do not

ask

> another to endure what you have endured. Rather, be open to the

> understanding that the universal peace and love is available to all.

>

> Love eternal - Michael

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Dear Angelique,

 

I'm sorry you have taken this so personally, a I personally have

nothing against your right or freedom to be whoever you may want to

be. From what I have known of you from previously being on your list,

your kindness was quite evident. However you yourself have rules

pertinent to how you wish your list to be run. That there are some

list restrictions may indeed be seen as censorship, however this list

is not intended for discussion of erotic or sexual techniques and

practices. Very likely almost everyone on the list has a private sex

life, we just don't come here to discuss that in particular.

Persons of all persuasions and religions are welcome, and the fact

that someone may be of any particular sexual persuasion is not an

issue. Wicca and Shamanism are far broader in scope than just BDSM.

This is just one little email list, and you are most welcome.

Suggestions were already made to form another list where such topics

are welcome.

 

Believing that God is female as in Allah, or whatever name you may

prefer is also your right and certainly no problem with that being

expressed here. The difficulties of Muslim women and the question of

how some practices may be considered abusive, is certainly in line

with issues of ahimsa. It has been previously mentioned at length on

the list.

 

Jesus on the cross is unquestionably a sacred symbol to millions of

Christians, and is at the heart of the religion. While anyone is free

to think whatever they like about Jesus, it would be considered

disrespectful of that image to discuss here using it as an erotic

technique. Most Christians would find that offensive. The list

guidelines restrict any speech disrespectful of a relgion. Granted

there are few on the list, however it is a judgement call I was

willing to make, and I will stand by it.

 

If either Harsha or the list members in general disagree with my

attempts to moderate the list, I am happy to resign. If the list

wishes to debate the merits of my judgement here and as a group wants

the list to have other standards, its fine by me. Any further

clarification or debate is welcome too.

 

Angelique, you have not been moderated or asked to leave or banned. A

simple request was made that the list was not a place for discussions

of BDSM in general, but most specifically, it was the use of the cross

that I reacted to.

 

With love,

Gloria

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, "Gloria Lee" <glee@i...> wrote:

 

 

Hi folks,

 

What is freedom?

 

Does freedom mean that 'I' can do or say what I like?

 

 

Yes.

 

And it also means that 'you' can do or say what you like!

 

 

So, what happens when 'I' say or do something that imposes on your

freedom, or 'you' say or do something that imposes on my freedom?...

 

 

---------------

 

 

Obviously the only mature answer is 'Mutual Respect' (and a

deeper understanding of freedom).

 

Without mutual respect we create the need for guidelines and

moderators (which means we have lost freedom).

 

 

Love,

james

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> What is freedom?

>

> Does freedom mean that 'I' can do or say what I like?

>

>

> Yes.

 

That's a debatable definition of "freedom"!

 

>

> And it also means that 'you' can do or say what you like!

>

>

> So, what happens when 'I' say or do something that imposes on your

> freedom, or 'you' say or do something that imposes on my freedom?...

 

No one imposes on "my" freedom. Freedom remains quite uneffected by

anything posted -but I choose to be mindful and respect the guidelines of

this list which are pretty broad. Ancient teachings demonstrate that

"freedom" is discovered within the "limitations" of certain guidelines and

discipline. It does seem to be a matter of choice and good manners at least.

So three cheers, Gloria and many thanks for pure motivation!

 

Joyce

>

>

> ---------------

>

>

> Obviously the only mature answer is 'Mutual Respect' (and a

> deeper understanding of freedom).

>

> Without mutual respect we create the need for guidelines and

> moderators (which means we have lost freedom).

>

>

> Love,

> james

>

/join

>

> All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

> perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside

> back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

> the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of

> Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is

> Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality

> of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge,

> spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to

a.

>

> To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at

> www., and select the User Center link from

> the menu bar

> on the left. This menu will also let you change your

> subscription

> between digest and normal mode.

>

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

>

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, "Joyce Short" <insight@s...> wrote:

 

Hi Joyce,

 

You're quite right- It is a debatable definition of 'freedom'

and that is the point.

 

People say they want 'freedom' but do they really know what it

means?

 

Love,

james

 

 

 

 

 

 

>

>

> > What is freedom?

> >

> > Does freedom mean that 'I' can do or say what I like?

> >

> >

> > Yes.

>

> That's a debatable definition of "freedom"!

>

>

> >

> > And it also means that 'you' can do or say what you like!

> >

> >

> > So, what happens when 'I' say or do something that imposes on

your

> > freedom, or 'you' say or do something that imposes on my

freedom?...

>

> No one imposes on "my" freedom. Freedom remains quite uneffected by

> anything posted -but I choose to be mindful and respect the

guidelines of

> this list which are pretty broad. Ancient teachings demonstrate

that

> "freedom" is discovered within the "limitations" of certain

guidelines and

> discipline. It does seem to be a matter of choice and good manners

at least.

> So three cheers, Gloria and many thanks for pure motivation!

>

> Joyce

> >

> >

> > ---------------

> >

> >

> > Obviously the only mature answer is 'Mutual Respect' (and a

> > deeper understanding of freedom).

> >

> > Without mutual respect we create the need for guidelines and

> > moderators (which means we have lost freedom).

> >

> >

> > Love,

> > james

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > /join

> >

> > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places,

sights,

> > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in

and subside

> > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not

different than

> > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of

> > Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present.

It is

> > Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the

Finality

> > of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of

Self-Knowledge,

> > spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to

> a.

> >

> > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at

> > www., and select the User Center

link from

> > the menu bar

> > on the left. This menu will also let you change

your

> > subscription

> > between digest and normal mode.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Your use of is subject to

> >

> >

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Namaste All,

 

Gloria is right otherwise we could have all kind of porn and

perversions on here with photos as well. Read the guidelines this is

supposed to be blessed by Ramana. Find quotes where he approves of

bondage etc then put it on here........

 

 

, Mystress Angelique Serpent <Mystress@k...>

wrote:

>

> Ya know, in March, 2000 I was writing to Harsha privately, and

I

> explained to him that I rarely post to his list because I felt like

my

> perverse sense of humor and unique perspectives are unwelcome here.

I

> prefer not to go where I am not appreciated.

>

> Harsha responded to reassure me that I was welcome... so I

began to

> participate.. occasionally.. cautiously. He said to me:

>

> >You are welcome to say or post anything on the list that you

> >please.

>

> No restrictions. Silly me, I took him at his word... I guess

he wrote

> that, before you became co-moderator.

>

> I guess it never occurred to you, that you have just made

comments that

> show disrespect to *my* religion... BDSM Shamanism.. over some humor

that

> was more innocuous than the average Calvin Klein ad or music video.

> Recently on TV there have been adverts for a movie called "Tom cats"

that

> has more BDSM in it than I'd thought I'd see on TV. The trailer for

the

> film has bondage, Dominatrixes and clearly implied torture.. it is

rated

> "all audiences." Look for yourself.

> http://www.mediatrip.com/tomcats/sneak/index.html

>

> I have been expressing myself on the internet and in other media

for

> long enough, I know where the line is, between what is censorable,

> according to normal social standards.. and I did not cross it.

>

> Poor Gloria.. your mind is in a bondage far more restrictive

than

> anything I would do to someone. What is it, that you are afraid of,

really?

> That the Harsha list will get rejected by , next? Hmm..

that

> would be ironic, but I don't think that is likely. So, what is it?

You

> project your fear onto me, and try to control what I do.. that may

be

> easier than dealing with your fear, but do you really think that

will work?

>

> I have looked at the list guidelines, and I see nothing in it,

that

> would move you to want to silence me, as you are doing. Quite the

opposite.

> It says:

>

> >How beautiful the variety of expressions in so many different

traditions!

> >We embrace this variety with great joy and in fellowship in

a.

>

> You do not seem to be embracing the variety I manifest, with

joy, or

> seeing beauty in it. It is there.. Why are you are not seeing it?

Where is

> the fellowship?

>

> >No religion or teacher or tradition has a monopoly on the Essential

Truth

> >of Reality which is Our Own Nature. In this context,

a

> >focuses on the aspirations and experiences of individuals on the

spiritual

> >path.

>

> I expressed my experience, as an individual.

>

> > Everyone interested in any of the Shiva and Shakti traditions,

and the

> > related yogic and tantric paths

>

> That would be me.. :)

>

> >as well as those practicing primarily the cognitive methods of the

pure

> >nondual teachings of great Jnanis such as Ramana Maharshi are

welcome to

> >join. The discussions are typically expected to focus on

Self-Realization,

> >Kundalini Shakti and Its Manifestations,

>

> Yup.

>

> >God-Realization, the Goddess, Enlightenment, and various types of

Samadhis

> >(Savikalpa and Nirvikalpa). Discussion of various teachers and

teachings

> >can also be enriching as long as there is mutual respect and a

feeling of

> >amity in the conversation.

>

> Yup. I was respectful.. I am being respectful.. I am not

feeling

> respected.

>

> > Humor and poetry and other artistic expressions of the spiritual

life

> > are encouraged and supported.

>

> Humor.. yup... but I am not feeling supported..

>

> Lobster is right.. it is time for me to go back to activism.

This is

> one of many signs that are coming up, lately.

>

> If, your reminder about disrespectful comment about a religion,

refers

> to my saying Allah is female, then you have really misread me.

Realizing

> that, was the only way I could find respect for a religion that

treats

> women worse than cattle. Do you know what happens to women in Muslim

> countries, these days? Do you know what is occurring in Afghanistan?

Open

> your eyes.

>

> http://www.llamarose.com/women.html

> http://www.rawa.org/women4.htm

> http://www.phrusa.org/campaigns/afghanistan/index.html

> http://www.rawa.org/haircut.htm

> http://www.rawa.org/rules.htm

>

> No, I don't have any questions.. only sadness.

> blessings..

>

> At 11:56 AM 4/22/01, you wrote:

> >Am CC'ing to you in case you don't read the list digest that

often...

> >this was just posted.

> >

> >

> >Dear Angelique

> >

> >One of the reasons for creating different lists is to allow places

> >for different preferences. If anyone would read what the list focus

> >is from the description, they would certainly not expect to read a

> >message on a topic like bondage. This list is open to all ages,

and

> >is not restricted to adults. We are not even R-rated, let alone X!

> >Comments that may be seen as disrespectful of any religion are not

> >in harmony with the list atmosphere, either. The moderators think

it

> >should be already clear that this would not be considered an

> >appropriate message here. But if you have any questions, you are

> >welcome to ask for clarification about those guidelines.

> >

> >Gloria

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On 4/23/01 at 7:30 PM nisarga wrote:

 

º, "Joyce Short" <insight@s...> wrote:

º

º Hi Joyce,

º

º You're quite right- It is a debatable definition of 'freedom'

ºand that is the point.

º

º People say they want 'freedom' but do they really know what it

ºmeans?

º

º Love,

º james

 

That's a good one James - not only don't they know, they would be shocked to

know.

Because it would mean experiencing all one's "holy cows" go up in smoke at once,

as those are but "mind constructs".

What are those "holy cows" but blocks that sooner or later have to be faced...

This isn't meant disrespectful, just a reminder that "world is mind".

 

Love,

Jan

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Hi Gloria:

Doing my usual "trying to catch up" but wanted to say I believe that

you handled this situation with detachment and within the guidelines

of moderation :).

By the way, while no where near $1,600 I too am involved with trying

to figure out why a gas station keeps putting in $17.00 charges

against my account for gas purchased back in January.

Love,

Linda

>If either Harsha or the list members in general disagree with my

attempts to >moderate the list, I am happy to resign. If the list

wishes to debate the merits of >my judgement here and as a group

wants the list to have other standards, its fine >by me. Any further

clarification or debate is welcome too.

>With love,

>Gloria

/joinAll paths go

somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions,

and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back

into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of

Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It

is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the

Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of

Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self.

Welcome all to a.To from this list, go to

the ONElist web site, at www., and

select the User Center link from the menu bar on

the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription

between digest and normal mode.Your use of is

subject to the

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Hi James,

You write that freedom is doing/saying what one likes.

I doubt it.

Everybody does that already.

Are they all free ?

JB

 

 

 

, nisarga@c... wrote:

> , "Gloria Lee" <glee@i...> wrote:

>

>

> Hi folks,

>

> What is freedom?

>

> Does freedom mean that 'I' can do or say what I like?

>

>

> Yes.

>

> And it also means that 'you' can do or say what you like!

>

>

> So, what happens when 'I' say or do something that imposes on

your

> freedom, or 'you' say or do something that imposes on my freedom?...

>

>

> ---------------

>

>

> Obviously the only mature answer is 'Mutual Respect' (and a

> deeper understanding of freedom).

>

> Without mutual respect we create the need for guidelines and

> moderators (which means we have lost freedom).

>

>

> Love,

> james

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I'm going to flog the dead horse a little more. Something has been nagging

at me about this thread and I finally figured it out. It is my memory that

the original objection to posted material by Angelique came from a woman (?)

who was objecting on the grounds that HER CHILDREN might read the offending

posts. Perhaps the woman objected herself and was hiding behind her

children, but the post to me felt like a little righteous slap to which all

respondents (except Angelique and one other -- forgive me, I've forgotten

who) capitulated. We're all more or less grown-up. If posts offend we can

complain and duke it out directly, leave, listen and/or compromise. If we

don't want our children to read stuff, that is our responsiblity as parents

to handle. Unlike other guideline snaggles we've untangled comfortably, this

one had a real stink of censorship. Holly

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Hello Gloria and everyone else who wish to read this

 

, "Gloria Lee" <glee@i...> wrote:

> If either Harsha or the list members in general disagree with my

>attempts to moderate the list, I am happy to resign. If the list

>wishes to debate the merits of my judgement here and as a group

>wants the list to have other standards, its fine by me. Any further

>clarification or debate is welcome too.

 

Attempts anywhere on the net of moderation of speech, even from

moderators who are set to do this job, eve if the moderation has a

clear purpose, are /always/ met with resistance. I have seen that as

moderator of two lists. It's never easy to "have to" bend to another

person's will, wherever it may be coming from, for whatever reason it

may be said, it is usually a bone of contention. As children we are

taught to obey our parents and when we rebel against this in our

teens, we believe we become free to form our own personality. This

rebel usually continues into adulthood. Restrictions of this

perceived freedom, however mild, is never liked. As the song

says "Everyone wants to rule the world".

 

What is often forgotten is the mutual contract of society. When

coming into a group or society, there is usually a variety of

opinions, assumptions, likes and dislikes and what's one woman's

dream is another woman's nightmare. :) In every society contract,

made for us to be able to speak with one another without turning

every little disagreement to an argument, we need to be aware of each

others' limitations and dislikes and respect them. I have always

believed that the respect must go to those who are the

most "sensitive". If someone dislikes something, giving them some

leeway is ok, not easy, but something that must often be done.

 

It is no point in going to a sermon of born again Christians and

preach atheism, you know what you're gonna get if you do that and the

chances for anyone listening are pretty small.

> Jesus on the cross is unquestionably a sacred symbol to millions of

>Christians, and is at the heart of the religion. While anyone is

>free to think whatever they like about Jesus, it would be considered

>disrespectful of that image to discuss here using it as an erotic

>technique. Most Christians would find that offensive. The list

>guidelines restrict any speech disrespectful of a relgion. Granted

>there are few on the list, however it is a judgement call I was

>willing to make, and I will stand by it.

 

:) Yeah, most Christians would feel that was offensive since their

religion and practice takes little account of the body and its songs.

A friend of mine was most delighted and happy when discovering the

possibility (reflection) of the passion play having a shade of

masochism, in fact he came running to me to share it. But it's not a

suggestion most ppl would take without being offended or resort to

ridicule. Religious and spiritual values hit close to home and it's

difficult not being offended by what other ppl say in that respect.

 

I support you in your views of the guidelines and hope we can

continue to show respect to everyone's sensibilities

and "sensitivities".

 

 

Love,

 

Amanda.

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Hi James,

 

I don't know if "people" know what it means - I've come across a few who do.

It seems at times that a person will have the notion of freedom which is

really just licentiousness and selfishness -speaking only for myself, of

course.

 

Love Joyce

>

> You're quite right- It is a debatable definition of 'freedom'

> and that is the point.

>

> People say they want 'freedom' but do they really know what it

> means?

>

> Love,

> james

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>>

>>

>> > What is freedom?

>> >

>> > Does freedom mean that 'I' can do or say what I like?

>> >

>> >

>> > Yes.

>>

>> That's a debatable definition of "freedom"!

>>

>>

>> >

>> > And it also means that 'you' can do or say what you like!

>> >

>> >

>> > So, what happens when 'I' say or do something that imposes on

> your

>> > freedom, or 'you' say or do something that imposes on my

> freedom?...

>>

>> No one imposes on "my" freedom. Freedom remains quite uneffected by

>> anything posted -but I choose to be mindful and respect the

> guidelines of

>> this list which are pretty broad. Ancient teachings demonstrate

> that

>> "freedom" is discovered within the "limitations" of certain

> guidelines and

>> discipline. It does seem to be a matter of choice and good manners

> at least.

>> So three cheers, Gloria and many thanks for pure motivation!

>>

>> Joyce

>> >

>> >

>> > ---------------

>> >

>> >

>> > Obviously the only mature answer is 'Mutual Respect' (and a

>> > deeper understanding of freedom).

>> >

>> > Without mutual respect we create the need for guidelines and

>> > moderators (which means we have lost freedom).

>> >

>> >

>> > Love,

>> > james

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > /join

>> >

>> > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places,

> sights,

>> > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in

> and subside

>> > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not

> different than

>> > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of

>> > Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present.

> It is

>> > Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the

> Finality

>> > of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of

> Self-Knowledge,

>> > spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to

>> a.

>> >

>> > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at

>> > www., and select the User Center

> link from

>> > the menu bar

>> > on the left. This menu will also let you change

> your

>> > subscription

>> > between digest and normal mode.

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > Your use of is subject to

>

>> >

>> >

>

>

>

> /join

>

> All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

> perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside

> back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

> the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of

> Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is

> Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality

> of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge,

> spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to

a.

>

> To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at

> www., and select the User Center link from

> the menu bar

> on the left. This menu will also let you change your

> subscription

> between digest and normal mode.

>

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

>

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The search for liberation is itself

bondage.

It is we who

put ourselves in bondage by

making a polarity of

liberation and bondage.

Guidelines on a list are simply

guidelines on a list. Whatever

the list members, moderators,

head of the list decide. It's

up to them.

Where did Ramana

say anything at all about

what should or shouldn't be

allowed to be posted on

e-mail lists? ;-)

Namaste,

Dan

Namaste All,

Gloria is right otherwise we could have all kind of porn and

perversions on here with photos as well. Read the guidelines this is

supposed to be blessed by Ramana. Find quotes where he approves of

bondage etc then put it on here........, Mystress Angelique Serpent

<Mystress@k...>

wrote:

>

> Ya know, in March, 2000 I was writing

to Harsha privately, and

I

> explained to him that I rarely post to his list because I felt like

my

> perverse sense of humor and unique perspectives are unwelcome here.

I

> prefer not to go where I am not appreciated.

>

> Harsha responded to reassure me that I

was welcome... so I

began to

> participate.. occasionally.. cautiously. He said to me:

>

> >You are welcome to say or post anything on the list that

you

> >please.

>

> No restrictions. Silly me, I

took him at his word... I guess

he wrote

> that, before you became co-moderator.

>

> I guess it never occurred to you, that you

have just made

comments that

> show disrespect to *my* religion... BDSM Shamanism.. over some humor

that

> was more innocuous than the average Calvin Klein ad or music video.

> Recently on TV there have been adverts for a movie called "Tom

cats"

that

> has more BDSM in it than I'd thought I'd see on TV. The

trailer for

the

> film has bondage, Dominatrixes and clearly implied torture.. it is

rated

> "all audiences." Look for yourself.

>

http://www.mediatrip.com/tomcats/sneak/index.html

>

> I have been expressing myself on the

internet and in other media

for

> long enough, I know where the line is, between what is censorable,

> according to normal social standards.. and I did not cross it.

>

> Poor Gloria.. your mind is in a

bondage far more restrictive

than

> anything I would do to someone. What is it, that you are afraid of,

really?

> That the Harsha list will get rejected by , next? Hmm..

that

> would be ironic, but I don't think that is likely. So, what is it?

You

> project your fear onto me, and try to control what I do.. that may

be

> easier than dealing with your fear, but do you really think that

will work?

>

> I have looked at the list guidelines, and I see

nothing in it,

that

> would move you to want to silence me, as you are doing. Quite the

opposite.

> It says:

>

> >How beautiful the variety of expressions in so many different

traditions!

> >We embrace this variety with great joy and in fellowship in

a.

>

> You do not seem to be embracing the

variety I manifest, with

joy, or

> seeing beauty in it. It is there.. Why are you are not seeing it?

Where is

> the fellowship?

>

> >No religion or teacher or tradition has a monopoly on the

Essential

Truth

> >of Reality which is Our Own Nature. In this context,

a

> >focuses on the aspirations and experiences of individuals on the

spiritual

> >path.

>

> I expressed my experience, as an

individual.

>

> > Everyone interested in any of the Shiva and Shakti

traditions,

and the

> > related yogic and tantric paths

>

> That would be me.. :)

>

> >as well as those practicing primarily the cognitive methods of

the

pure

> >nondual teachings of great Jnanis such as Ramana Maharshi are

welcome to

> >join. The discussions are typically expected to focus on

Self-Realization,

> >Kundalini Shakti and Its Manifestations,

>

> Yup.

>

> >God-Realization, the Goddess, Enlightenment, and various types

of

Samadhis

> >(Savikalpa and Nirvikalpa). Discussion of various teachers and

teachings

> >can also be enriching as long as there is mutual respect and a

feeling of

> >amity in the conversation.

>

> Yup. I was respectful.. I am being

respectful.. I am not

feeling

> respected.

>

> > Humor and poetry and other artistic expressions of the

spiritual

life

> > are encouraged and supported.

>

> Humor.. yup... but I am not

feeling supported..

>

> Lobster is right.. it is time for me

to go back to activism.

This is

> one of many signs that are coming up, lately.

>

> If, your reminder about disrespectful

comment about a religion,

refers

> to my saying Allah is female, then you have really misread me.

Realizing

> that, was the only way I could find respect for a religion that

treats

> women worse than cattle. Do you know what happens to women in Muslim

> countries, these days? Do you know what is occurring in Afghanistan?

Open

> your eyes.

>

>

http://www.llamarose.com/women.html

>

http://www.rawa.org/women4.htm

>

http://www.phrusa.org/campaigns/afghanistan/index.html

>

http://www.rawa.org/haircut.htm

>

http://www.rawa.org/rules.htm

>

> No, I don't have any questions.. only

sadness.

> blessings..

>

> At 11:56 AM 4/22/01, you wrote:

> >Am CC'ing to you in case you don't read the list digest that

often...

> >this was just posted.

> >

> >

> >Dear Angelique

> >

> >One of the reasons for creating different lists is to allow

places

> >for different preferences. If anyone would read what the list

focus

> >is from the description, they would certainly not expect to read

a

> >message on a topic like bondage. This list is open to all

ages,

and

> >is not restricted to adults. We are not even R-rated, let alone

X!

> >Comments that may be seen as disrespectful of any religion

are not

> >in harmony with the list atmosphere, either. The moderators

think

it

> >should be already clear that this would not be considered

an

> >appropriate message here. But if you have any questions,

you are

> >welcome to ask for clarification about those guidelines.

> >

> >Gloria

 

Sponsor

/join

All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and

subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not

different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the

nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always

Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to

be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of

Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome

all to a.

To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at

www.,

and select the User Center link from the menu bar

on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription

between digest and normal mode.

Your use of is subject to the

Terms of

Service.

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Censorship would be condemning the choices and acts of another and at

no point was Angelique condemned she was simply reminded that her

posts were not appropriate here. I do not recall someone complaining

about her children reading a post but I can recall hearing from a 16

year old girl who participated in one of the threads in response to

her own spiritual journey. It seems to me that as parents we monitor

music, tv, movies, books I can see no reason why we should have to

monitor a spiritual satsangh for sexual content.

Linda

>I'm going to flog the dead horse a little more. Something has been

>nagging >at me about this thread and I finally figured it out. It

is my memory >that >the original objection to posted material by

Angelique came from a woman >(?) >who was objecting on the grounds

that HER CHILDREN might read the >offending >posts. Perhaps the

woman objected herself and was hiding behind her >children, but the

post to me felt like a little righteous slap to which >all

>respondents (except Angelique and one other -- forgive me, I've

forgotten >who) capitulated. We're all more or less grown-up. If

posts offend we >can >complain and duke it out directly, leave,

listen and/or compromise. If >we >don't want our children to read

stuff, that is our responsiblity as >parents >to handle. Unlike

other guideline snaggles we've untangled comfortably, >this >one had

a real stink of censorship.

Holly/joinAll paths go

somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions,

and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back

into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of

Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It

is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the

Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of

Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self.

Welcome all to a.To from this list, go to

the ONElist web site, at www., and

select the User Center link from the menu bar on

the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription

between digest and normal mode.Your use of is

subject to the

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At 12:02 PM 4/23/01, you wrote:

> Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:48:15 -0400

> "Gloria Lee" <glee

>Re: Re: guidelines

>

>Dear Angelique,

>

>I'm sorry you have taken this so personally,

 

Well, of course I took it personally. I was not the person to bring up

the subject of crucifying people, I simply elaborated on my own experience.

With humor. Nobody reacted to the person who did bring it up. Everyone

reacted to burn the Witch.

> a I personally have nothing against your right or freedom to be whoever

> you may want to be. From what I have known of you from previously being

> on your list, your kindness was quite evident.

 

thank you.

> However you yourself have rules pertinent to how you wish your list to

> be run. That there are some list restrictions may indeed be seen as

> censorship, however this list is not intended for discussion of erotic or

> sexual techniques and practices. Very likely almost everyone on the list

> has a private sex life, we just don't come here to discuss that in particular.

 

That is fine.. I have no problem with that.. but that is not what you

said, in your email. You specifically commented on the topic of bondage and

suggested I was being disrespectful of somebody's religion.

 

I did not mention sex at all. I did not mention BDSM, by name, either.

The context of the conversation was whether it is compassionate to offer

suffering to those who find value in it. I related my personal experience.

 

If discussion of sex is off topic, then perhaps the guidelines need to

be amended to say so.

 

Doing a search of the archives using the keyword "Sex", I found 500+

messages. These ranged from your own posting "Why chocolate is better than

sex", to a long thread on "intense sexual desire". Plus threads on

"Unlimited sex and Awareness, compassion etc." and "energy/perceptual

clarity and sex." Just to name a few. Of course, I have not read all 500+

postings to determine their exact content.

Scanning through a few of them, I discovered some postings that are

decidedly related to "sexual practices".. such as message # 11377 where

JB is discussing his own sex life and his marital relations, with regard

to the effect of ejaculation on Kundalini.

I also found several hundred posts, using the keyword "bondage."..

but I did not read their content.

 

From this, I can only conclude that it is OK to talk about sex and

bondage, so long as I am not the one talking.. and you wonder why I took it

personally.. sigh.

> Suggestions were already made to form another list where such topics

> are welcome.

 

There are many lists on such topics already. I post to them. That is

not what this is about, IMO. Your extravagant reaction to a few words,

seemed excessive and prejudicial, to me. Personal. Yes, it hurt my feelings.

>Believing that God is female as in Allah, or whatever name you may prefer

>is also your right and certainly no problem with that being expressed

>here. The difficulties of Muslim women and the question of how some

>practices may be considered abusive, is certainly in line with issues of

>ahimsa. It has been previously mentioned at length on the list.

 

OK.

>Jesus on the cross is unquestionably a sacred symbol to millions of

>Christians, and is at the heart of the religion. While anyone is free to

>think whatever they like about Jesus, it would be considered disrespectful

>of that image to discuss here using it as an erotic technique. Most

>Christians would find that offensive.

 

Ah, here we get to the heart of the matter. Your emotional reaction,

as a Christian to what you perceived as disrespect.

 

None was intended. Christianity was not mentioned. Jesus was not

mentioned either. The cross being referred to, is not even a crucifix.. I

explained in the post, that it is a big X shape... like on a "cross your

heart" bra, not a +.

That my comments would be offensive to Christians, never even crossed

my mind. I was quite puzzled by your reference to religious disrespect,

since the only religion I mentioned, other than my own is Islam.

 

I was not talking about Christians. I was talking about compassion, and

acts of love and pleasure. How the heck you read disrespect to Christians

into that... I dunno.. I have to conclude that your issue with it, is

*your* issue. Your perceptions.

 

My X shaped toy is called a St. Andrews cross.. I don't know why, and I

don't know who St. Andrew was. It is just the name of that type of device.

I refer to my sandals as "Jesus boots", and I don't mean any disrespect by

that, either.

 

Binding anyone in an actual Jesus crucifixion pose is *not* part of

BDSM practices, as there is considerable danger of death by suffocation.

That is how people died on the cross.. by suffocation when the chest

muscles cramped. That is why breaking the legs was done as an act of mercy.

The crucified persons could no longer relieve the stress on the chest

muscles by using their legs, and died quicker.

 

Thousands of people were crucified by the Romans before Jesus, and

thousands after. Most of them were not Christian. It was a popular method

of torture, and it used many different types of structures, including

hanging people on a wall.

 

Not everyone automatically assumes references to a cross or to

crucifixion are about Jesus. The druids also used a cross as part of their

symbolism, and the Shamanic symbol is a cross within a circle. Witches

symbol is the pentacle, which has been given considerable disrespect by

Christians erroneously associating it with Satanism... which I occasionally

encounter, when I wear the symbol.

The original symbol of Christianity, was the fish. Peter was a fisherman.

 

Further.. there is evidence that Christianity started out as partly a

sex cult... as well as a doomsday cult. Christ said "love thy neighbor"

and this was interpreted many ways before puritanism came in vogue.

Christians greeted each other by kissing!

 

Later, being whipped and crucified was a trendy form of worship, as it

was thought to bring one closer to Jesus, experientially. Usually it was

not intended to be a fatal experience... but it is very dangerous. It was

also used as a form of torture by the Spanish Inquisition.

In the Chivalry movement, in particular, women were considered

manifestations of Mary, and for them to torture their husbands or suitors

as a spiritual devotion that made the males more "Christlike" was

considered a sacred expression of love and romance.

 

Quite famous is the Christian flagellant movement, which is considered

to have been effective medicine against the Black Plague in Europe, and

there are some convent Nuns who still use this practice, in their

spiritual-sexual role as "Brides of Christ."

 

If there are Christians who find this offensive, it is because they are

uneducated about their own religion. Because, doing research would make

them a heretic...

 

I offer these ideas to illustrate that my comments were not intended

to offend anyone. My own attitude towards Christianity is best expressed by

a quote from Mark Twain: "Christianity would be a great religion, if anyone

ever tried it." In my experience, nobody ever does.

 

Christ preached tolerance, and was forgiving of Samaritans and

prostitutes. Certainly, "Most Christians" are quick to take offense at many

things.. it is a religion that is notorious for repression, from burnt

witches and executed heretics, to the current condition of

bowing to moral majority pressure and removing adult email lists from their

directories.

 

Would Christ approve? I doubt it.. perhaps a more appropriate thread

for this list, would be a debate about whether Christian repression is a

projection of Christian guilt for not behaving as Christians.

 

I'm sorry to hear you have been robbed.. that is a personal invasion

that must be very stressful.

Considering your situation and your defense of Christianity, the New

Testament quote that came to mind, is something like "If a man asks for

your shirt, give him your coat, too".. which suggests that the proper

Christian response to being robbed on-line would be to send the thief a few

thousand dollars more.

 

I'm not suggesting you do that.. I wouldn't.. but then, I'm not a

Christian.

>If either Harsha or the list members in general disagree with my attempts

>to moderate the list, I am happy to resign. If the list wishes to debate

>the merits of my judgement here and as a group wants the list to have

>other standards, its fine by me. Any further clarification or debate is

>welcome too.

 

I don't think anyone has called for your resignation, certainly I

am not seeking it. The clarification is useful, I think, for all concerned.

If anyone knows how hard it is to be a list moderator, it's me. I've been

at the job longer than anybody here.

 

If I can offer any suggestions to make the job easier, it would be to

always wait a day before responding to correct someone.. and especially,

before *reacting*.. and possibly over-reacting and making a mountain out of

a molehill. Reaction starts a chain reaction.. that is part of the power

and responsibility of moderator ship.

 

I liked what Christopher wrote about when an empathic healer's

centrifugal energy collides with somebody's blockages.. the person with the

blockage reacts with efforts to control, and the healer goes berserk

manifesting the dis-ease.

When the Karma shit hits the healer fan, the healer gets spattered and

ends up manifesting the dis-ease.. no kidding! I make a passing, innocent

remark about my life, and the whole place gets in an uproar trying to

control the crazy Witch.

 

This ain't my stuff, Gloria. My energy poked your stuff, and you

reacted to try to control me... and I do not accept it. I have ended up

spending days bent out of shape, clearing stuff that is not my issue. It is

your projections about what you *thought* I wrote. Stuff that you are not

interested in clearing from yourself, when it is so much easier to project

it onto me, with blame and efforts at control.

You do not see that, at all.. you ask me why I take it personally. Oy.

>Angelique, you have not been moderated or asked to leave or banned. A

>simple request was made that the list was not a place for discussions of

>BDSM in general, but most specifically, it was the use of the cross that I

>reacted to.

 

Well, with clarification it seems that what I actually wrote, and what

you read are two quite different things...

 

Yes, you *reacted* with a pretty typical knee-jerk Christian

repressive response to what you *thought* I was saying... not to what I

actually did say. While I respect that list moderator is a tough job, I

tend to have little patience with that kind of thing.

 

You have not had the experiences I have had, of harassment by

"Christians" reacting to who they think I am and what they think I do. Oh,

the stories I could tell. You have no idea. I walk around being my natural,

happy heretical self, with my centrifugal field, and people act like I'm

the devil incarnate. My heart voice named me well, Angelique Serpent.. but,

it promised I would not get lynched...

 

Christian Projections of their dis-ease have been an excuse to kill

more people than any war or disease in history.. and they are so stuck in

the righteousness that they never for a moment stop to consider that

perhaps the problem is within them, and not with that which they judge.

 

I'm sooo fed up with Christians using the motive of protecting their

sacred cows as an excuse for everything from internet censorship to

murdering abortion Doctors. Not you specifically, you just manifested a

minor case of something I come up against, too often.

 

On a related topic.. Someone asked about the situation with porn

and censorship: was going to enter the porn industry to raise

capital, but they got so many complaints from the moral majority, that

instead they decided to go on a Witch-hunt and remove all sex related

advertising from their search engine directory, remove all sex related

lists from their clubs and listings, and delete many of the adult

groups and clubs.

 

Try it yourself. I did. Go to the main page, and do a

search on "sex". The result is "Sorry, no matches were found for sex." Same

result if you type in Kundalini sex. That means someone who might need to

find my Kundalini-sex list, for people who are trying to come to terms with

the intense sexuality that is one of the first side effects of awakening,

is out of luck... thanks to Christians and their knee-jerk reactions.

People looking for information on safe sex, or on sexually transmitted

diseases are out of luck, too. I know, I checked. So are people looking for

information on Christian sexuality, or sexual celibacy. The keyword

"Homosexual" gives the same result. So much for suicidal gay teenagers

trying to find a compassionate ear.

Want to complain about censorship? Send your comments to

investor_relations

 

Ironically, a search on BDSM yields 100 lists. There ya go. Apparently,

BDSM is not sex.. :)

Blessings..

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Sheesh!

Talk about beating a dead thread!

Does anyone have a needle so we can sew this one up?

 

(no disrespect intended Angelique, just finished my chocolate and I couldn't

resist ; ) )

 

Love,

~jess

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

-

"Mystress Angelique Serpent" <Mystress

<>

Tuesday, April 24, 2001 6:09 PM

Re: guidelines

 

>

> At 12:02 PM 4/23/01, you wrote:

> > Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:48:15 -0400

> > "Gloria Lee" <glee

> >Re: Re: guidelines

> >

> >Dear Angelique,

> >

> >I'm sorry you have taken this so personally,

>

> Well, of course I took it personally. I was not the person to bring up

> the subject of crucifying people, I simply elaborated on my own

experience.

> With humor. Nobody reacted to the person who did bring it up. Everyone

> reacted to burn the Witch.

>

> > a I personally have nothing against your right or freedom to be whoever

> > you may want to be. From what I have known of you from previously being

> > on your list, your kindness was quite evident.

>

> thank you.

>

> > However you yourself have rules pertinent to how you wish your list to

> > be run. That there are some list restrictions may indeed be seen as

> > censorship, however this list is not intended for discussion of erotic

or

> > sexual techniques and practices. Very likely almost everyone on the list

> > has a private sex life, we just don't come here to discuss that in

particular.

>

> That is fine.. I have no problem with that.. but that is not what you

> said, in your email. You specifically commented on the topic of bondage

and

> suggested I was being disrespectful of somebody's religion.

>

> I did not mention sex at all. I did not mention BDSM, by name, either.

> The context of the conversation was whether it is compassionate to offer

> suffering to those who find value in it. I related my personal experience.

>

> If discussion of sex is off topic, then perhaps the guidelines need to

> be amended to say so.

>

> Doing a search of the archives using the keyword "Sex", I found 500+

> messages. These ranged from your own posting "Why chocolate is better than

> sex", to a long thread on "intense sexual desire". Plus threads on

> "Unlimited sex and Awareness, compassion etc." and "energy/perceptual

> clarity and sex." Just to name a few. Of course, I have not read all 500+

> postings to determine their exact content.

> Scanning through a few of them, I discovered some postings that are

> decidedly related to "sexual practices".. such as message # 11377 where

> JB is discussing his own sex life and his marital relations, with regard

> to the effect of ejaculation on Kundalini.

> I also found several hundred posts, using the keyword "bondage."..

> but I did not read their content.

>

> From this, I can only conclude that it is OK to talk about sex and

> bondage, so long as I am not the one talking.. and you wonder why I took

it

> personally.. sigh.

>

> > Suggestions were already made to form another list where such topics

> > are welcome.

>

> There are many lists on such topics already. I post to them. That is

> not what this is about, IMO. Your extravagant reaction to a few words,

> seemed excessive and prejudicial, to me. Personal. Yes, it hurt my

feelings.

>

> >Believing that God is female as in Allah, or whatever name you may prefer

> >is also your right and certainly no problem with that being expressed

> >here. The difficulties of Muslim women and the question of how some

> >practices may be considered abusive, is certainly in line with issues of

> >ahimsa. It has been previously mentioned at length on the list.

>

> OK.

>

> >Jesus on the cross is unquestionably a sacred symbol to millions of

> >Christians, and is at the heart of the religion. While anyone is free to

> >think whatever they like about Jesus, it would be considered

disrespectful

> >of that image to discuss here using it as an erotic technique. Most

> >Christians would find that offensive.

>

> Ah, here we get to the heart of the matter. Your emotional reaction,

> as a Christian to what you perceived as disrespect.

>

> None was intended. Christianity was not mentioned. Jesus was not

> mentioned either. The cross being referred to, is not even a crucifix.. I

> explained in the post, that it is a big X shape... like on a "cross your

> heart" bra, not a +.

> That my comments would be offensive to Christians, never even crossed

> my mind. I was quite puzzled by your reference to religious disrespect,

> since the only religion I mentioned, other than my own is Islam.

>

> I was not talking about Christians. I was talking about compassion, and

> acts of love and pleasure. How the heck you read disrespect to Christians

> into that... I dunno.. I have to conclude that your issue with it, is

> *your* issue. Your perceptions.

>

> My X shaped toy is called a St. Andrews cross.. I don't know why, and

I

> don't know who St. Andrew was. It is just the name of that type of device.

> I refer to my sandals as "Jesus boots", and I don't mean any disrespect by

> that, either.

>

> Binding anyone in an actual Jesus crucifixion pose is *not* part of

> BDSM practices, as there is considerable danger of death by suffocation.

> That is how people died on the cross.. by suffocation when the chest

> muscles cramped. That is why breaking the legs was done as an act of

mercy.

> The crucified persons could no longer relieve the stress on the chest

> muscles by using their legs, and died quicker.

>

> Thousands of people were crucified by the Romans before Jesus, and

> thousands after. Most of them were not Christian. It was a popular method

> of torture, and it used many different types of structures, including

> hanging people on a wall.

>

> Not everyone automatically assumes references to a cross or to

> crucifixion are about Jesus. The druids also used a cross as part of

their

> symbolism, and the Shamanic symbol is a cross within a circle. Witches

> symbol is the pentacle, which has been given considerable disrespect by

> Christians erroneously associating it with Satanism... which I

occasionally

> encounter, when I wear the symbol.

> The original symbol of Christianity, was the fish. Peter was a

fisherman.

>

> Further.. there is evidence that Christianity started out as partly a

> sex cult... as well as a doomsday cult. Christ said "love thy neighbor"

> and this was interpreted many ways before puritanism came in vogue.

> Christians greeted each other by kissing!

>

> Later, being whipped and crucified was a trendy form of worship, as it

> was thought to bring one closer to Jesus, experientially. Usually it was

> not intended to be a fatal experience... but it is very dangerous. It was

> also used as a form of torture by the Spanish Inquisition.

> In the Chivalry movement, in particular, women were considered

> manifestations of Mary, and for them to torture their husbands or suitors

> as a spiritual devotion that made the males more "Christlike" was

> considered a sacred expression of love and romance.

>

> Quite famous is the Christian flagellant movement, which is considered

> to have been effective medicine against the Black Plague in Europe, and

> there are some convent Nuns who still use this practice, in their

> spiritual-sexual role as "Brides of Christ."

>

> If there are Christians who find this offensive, it is because they

are

> uneducated about their own religion. Because, doing research would make

> them a heretic...

>

> I offer these ideas to illustrate that my comments were not intended

> to offend anyone. My own attitude towards Christianity is best expressed

by

> a quote from Mark Twain: "Christianity would be a great religion, if

anyone

> ever tried it." In my experience, nobody ever does.

>

> Christ preached tolerance, and was forgiving of Samaritans and

> prostitutes. Certainly, "Most Christians" are quick to take offense at

many

> things.. it is a religion that is notorious for repression, from burnt

> witches and executed heretics, to the current condition of

> bowing to moral majority pressure and removing adult email lists from

their

> directories.

>

> Would Christ approve? I doubt it.. perhaps a more appropriate thread

> for this list, would be a debate about whether Christian repression is a

> projection of Christian guilt for not behaving as Christians.

>

> I'm sorry to hear you have been robbed.. that is a personal invasion

> that must be very stressful.

> Considering your situation and your defense of Christianity, the New

> Testament quote that came to mind, is something like "If a man asks for

> your shirt, give him your coat, too".. which suggests that the proper

> Christian response to being robbed on-line would be to send the thief a

few

> thousand dollars more.

>

> I'm not suggesting you do that.. I wouldn't.. but then, I'm not a

> Christian.

>

> >If either Harsha or the list members in general disagree with my attempts

> >to moderate the list, I am happy to resign. If the list wishes to debate

> >the merits of my judgement here and as a group wants the list to have

> >other standards, its fine by me. Any further clarification or debate is

> >welcome too.

>

> I don't think anyone has called for your resignation, certainly I

> am not seeking it. The clarification is useful, I think, for all

concerned.

> If anyone knows how hard it is to be a list moderator, it's me. I've been

> at the job longer than anybody here.

>

> If I can offer any suggestions to make the job easier, it would be to

> always wait a day before responding to correct someone.. and especially,

> before *reacting*.. and possibly over-reacting and making a mountain out

of

> a molehill. Reaction starts a chain reaction.. that is part of the power

> and responsibility of moderator ship.

>

> I liked what Christopher wrote about when an empathic healer's

> centrifugal energy collides with somebody's blockages.. the person with

the

> blockage reacts with efforts to control, and the healer goes berserk

> manifesting the dis-ease.

> When the Karma shit hits the healer fan, the healer gets spattered and

> ends up manifesting the dis-ease.. no kidding! I make a passing, innocent

> remark about my life, and the whole place gets in an uproar trying to

> control the crazy Witch.

>

> This ain't my stuff, Gloria. My energy poked your stuff, and you

> reacted to try to control me... and I do not accept it. I have ended up

> spending days bent out of shape, clearing stuff that is not my issue. It

is

> your projections about what you *thought* I wrote. Stuff that you are not

> interested in clearing from yourself, when it is so much easier to project

> it onto me, with blame and efforts at control.

> You do not see that, at all.. you ask me why I take it personally. Oy.

>

> >Angelique, you have not been moderated or asked to leave or banned. A

> >simple request was made that the list was not a place for discussions of

> >BDSM in general, but most specifically, it was the use of the cross that

I

> >reacted to.

>

> Well, with clarification it seems that what I actually wrote, and what

> you read are two quite different things...

>

> Yes, you *reacted* with a pretty typical knee-jerk Christian

> repressive response to what you *thought* I was saying... not to what I

> actually did say. While I respect that list moderator is a tough job, I

> tend to have little patience with that kind of thing.

>

> You have not had the experiences I have had, of harassment by

> "Christians" reacting to who they think I am and what they think I do. Oh,

> the stories I could tell. You have no idea. I walk around being my

natural,

> happy heretical self, with my centrifugal field, and people act like I'm

> the devil incarnate. My heart voice named me well, Angelique Serpent..

but,

> it promised I would not get lynched...

>

> Christian Projections of their dis-ease have been an excuse to kill

> more people than any war or disease in history.. and they are so stuck in

> the righteousness that they never for a moment stop to consider that

> perhaps the problem is within them, and not with that which they judge.

>

> I'm sooo fed up with Christians using the motive of protecting their

> sacred cows as an excuse for everything from internet censorship to

> murdering abortion Doctors. Not you specifically, you just manifested a

> minor case of something I come up against, too often.

>

> On a related topic.. Someone asked about the situation with

porn

> and censorship: was going to enter the porn industry to raise

> capital, but they got so many complaints from the moral majority, that

> instead they decided to go on a Witch-hunt and remove all sex related

> advertising from their search engine directory, remove all sex related

> lists from their clubs and listings, and delete many of the adult

> groups and clubs.

>

> Try it yourself. I did. Go to the main page, and do a

> search on "sex". The result is "Sorry, no matches were found for sex."

Same

> result if you type in Kundalini sex. That means someone who might need to

> find my Kundalini-sex list, for people who are trying to come to terms

with

> the intense sexuality that is one of the first side effects of awakening,

> is out of luck... thanks to Christians and their knee-jerk reactions.

> People looking for information on safe sex, or on sexually transmitted

> diseases are out of luck, too. I know, I checked. So are people looking

for

> information on Christian sexuality, or sexual celibacy. The keyword

> "Homosexual" gives the same result. So much for suicidal gay teenagers

> trying to find a compassionate ear.

> Want to complain about censorship? Send your comments to

> investor_relations

>

> Ironically, a search on BDSM yields 100 lists. There ya go.

Apparently,

> BDSM is not sex.. :)

> Blessings..

/join

>

> All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside

back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness.

Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is

where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal

Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously

arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.

>

> To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at

> www., and select the User Center link from

the menu bar

> on the left. This menu will also let you change your

subscription

> between digest and normal mode.

>

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

>

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Guest guest

Glo:

>>I'm sorry you have taken this so personally

 

Angelique:

>Well, of course I took it personally. I was not the person to bring

up the subject of crucifying people, I simply elaborated on my own

experience. With humor. Nobody reacted to the person who did bring it

up. Everyone reacted to burn the Witch.

 

 

Dear Angelique,

Without denying you the right to defend yourself, I am reacting to

you from a different view point.

If a host simply informs you that your words and topics are not

appreciated inside his/her house, do you then proceed to do

everything within your power to convince the host that he is being

disrespectful? Or can you reach a point in your understanding where

you can see that obeying the rules as the host outlines them to you,

is part of your duty as a guest?

Why are you so eager to even search for proof in past archives to

prove that you have been treated disrespectfully, while this is about

a live interaction in the present moment, that may have nothing at

all to do with topics as they have been discussed in former posts?

I support freedom of speech, but to quote an old friend: "when in

Rome, do as the Romans do".

I am not a Christian myself, I am a Wiccan by religion. But I know

that much symbolism and texts from Pagan traditions are hurtful to

Christians, simply because the associations they project on them are

based on (in my view) erroneous assumptions. If a Christian is

offended by that symbolism, why would I make it a point to prove them

wrong, if that is the way they feel?

I make it an issue not to offend people with my own beliefs, without

compromising that belief, thus insuring true freedom of religion and

faiths to the best of my abilities. The crede of my religioun is "an

ye harm none, do as ye will", which comes down to ahimsa.

There is something much more valuable than being right or wrong. It

is that in which both these concepts of right and wrong arise. It is

that which doesn't have an opposite, yet expresses itself in

interrelated polarities such as right and wrong.

It is what is common to all our views and all our words, no matter

how distorted. It is what is the light of clarity itself, and

pointing to that vastness, that sky, is far more liberating and

illuminating than seeking out clouds to collide with.

 

Just my opinion,

With love,

Mira

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Guest guest

Angelique wrote:

> there are some convent Nuns who still use this

> practice, in their spiritual-sexual role as "Brides of Christ."

 

When I was a Trappist monk we were supposed to self-flagellate...

Could not find a good reason to apply it though, received enough

flagellation otherwise.

 

Love, Wim

 

Greetings Angelique!

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Guest guest

Namaste All,

 

Methinks the lady doth protesteth too much......ONS

 

 

 

 

, Mystress Angelique Serpent <Mystress@k...>

wrote:

>

> At 12:02 PM 4/23/01, you wrote:

> > Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:48:15 -0400

> > "Gloria Lee" <glee@i...>

> >Re: Re: guidelines

> >

> >Dear Angelique,

> >

> >I'm sorry you have taken this so personally,

>

> Well, of course I took it personally. I was not the person to

bring up

> the subject of crucifying people, I simply elaborated on my own

experience.

> With humor. Nobody reacted to the person who did bring it up.

Everyone

> reacted to burn the Witch.

>

> > a I personally have nothing against your right or freedom to be

whoever

> > you may want to be. From what I have known of you from previously

being

> > on your list, your kindness was quite evident.

>

> thank you.

>

> > However you yourself have rules pertinent to how you wish your

list to

> > be run. That there are some list restrictions may indeed be seen

as

> > censorship, however this list is not intended for discussion of

erotic or

> > sexual techniques and practices. Very likely almost everyone on

the list

> > has a private sex life, we just don't come here to discuss that in

particular.

>

> That is fine.. I have no problem with that.. but that is not

what you

> said, in your email. You specifically commented on the topic of

bondage and

> suggested I was being disrespectful of somebody's religion.

>

> I did not mention sex at all. I did not mention BDSM, by name,

either.

> The context of the conversation was whether it is compassionate to

offer

> suffering to those who find value in it. I related my personal

experience.

>

> If discussion of sex is off topic, then perhaps the guidelines

need to

> be amended to say so.

>

> Doing a search of the archives using the keyword "Sex", I found

500+

> messages. These ranged from your own posting "Why chocolate is

better than

> sex", to a long thread on "intense sexual desire". Plus threads on

> "Unlimited sex and Awareness, compassion etc." and

"energy/perceptual

> clarity and sex." Just to name a few. Of course, I have not read all

500+

> postings to determine their exact content.

> Scanning through a few of them, I discovered some postings that

are

> decidedly related to "sexual practices".. such as message # 11377

where

> JB is discussing his own sex life and his marital relations, with

regard

> to the effect of ejaculation on Kundalini.

> I also found several hundred posts, using the keyword

"bondage."..

> but I did not read their content.

>

> From this, I can only conclude that it is OK to talk about sex

and

> bondage, so long as I am not the one talking.. and you wonder why I

took it

> personally.. sigh.

>

> > Suggestions were already made to form another list where such

topics

> > are welcome.

>

> There are many lists on such topics already. I post to them.

That is

> not what this is about, IMO. Your extravagant reaction to a few

words,

> seemed excessive and prejudicial, to me. Personal. Yes, it hurt my

feelings.

>

> >Believing that God is female as in Allah, or whatever name you may

prefer

> >is also your right and certainly no problem with that being

expressed

> >here. The difficulties of Muslim women and the question of how some

> >practices may be considered abusive, is certainly in line with

issues of

> >ahimsa. It has been previously mentioned at length on the list.

>

> OK.

>

> >Jesus on the cross is unquestionably a sacred symbol to millions of

> >Christians, and is at the heart of the religion. While anyone is

free to

> >think whatever they like about Jesus, it would be considered

disrespectful

> >of that image to discuss here using it as an erotic technique. Most

> >Christians would find that offensive.

>

> Ah, here we get to the heart of the matter. Your emotional

reaction,

> as a Christian to what you perceived as disrespect.

>

> None was intended. Christianity was not mentioned. Jesus was

not

> mentioned either. The cross being referred to, is not even a

crucifix.. I

> explained in the post, that it is a big X shape... like on a "cross

your

> heart" bra, not a +.

> That my comments would be offensive to Christians, never even

crossed

> my mind. I was quite puzzled by your reference to religious

disrespect,

> since the only religion I mentioned, other than my own is Islam.

>

> I was not talking about Christians. I was talking about

compassion, and

> acts of love and pleasure. How the heck you read disrespect to

Christians

> into that... I dunno.. I have to conclude that your issue with it,

is

> *your* issue. Your perceptions.

>

> My X shaped toy is called a St. Andrews cross.. I don't know

why, and I

> don't know who St. Andrew was. It is just the name of that type of

device.

> I refer to my sandals as "Jesus boots", and I don't mean any

disrespect by

> that, either.

>

> Binding anyone in an actual Jesus crucifixion pose is *not*

part of

> BDSM practices, as there is considerable danger of death by

suffocation.

> That is how people died on the cross.. by suffocation when the

chest

> muscles cramped. That is why breaking the legs was done as an act of

mercy.

> The crucified persons could no longer relieve the stress on the

chest

> muscles by using their legs, and died quicker.

>

> Thousands of people were crucified by the Romans before Jesus,

and

> thousands after. Most of them were not Christian. It was a popular

method

> of torture, and it used many different types of structures,

including

> hanging people on a wall.

>

> Not everyone automatically assumes references to a cross or to

> crucifixion are about Jesus. The druids also used a cross as part

of their

> symbolism, and the Shamanic symbol is a cross within a circle.

Witches

> symbol is the pentacle, which has been given considerable disrespect

by

> Christians erroneously associating it with Satanism... which I

occasionally

> encounter, when I wear the symbol.

> The original symbol of Christianity, was the fish. Peter was a

fisherman.

>

> Further.. there is evidence that Christianity started out as

partly a

> sex cult... as well as a doomsday cult. Christ said "love thy

neighbor"

> and this was interpreted many ways before puritanism came in vogue.

> Christians greeted each other by kissing!

>

> Later, being whipped and crucified was a trendy form of worship,

as it

> was thought to bring one closer to Jesus, experientially. Usually it

was

> not intended to be a fatal experience... but it is very dangerous.

It was

> also used as a form of torture by the Spanish Inquisition.

> In the Chivalry movement, in particular, women were considered

> manifestations of Mary, and for them to torture their husbands or

suitors

> as a spiritual devotion that made the males more "Christlike" was

> considered a sacred expression of love and romance.

>

> Quite famous is the Christian flagellant movement, which is

considered

> to have been effective medicine against the Black Plague in Europe,

and

> there are some convent Nuns who still use this practice, in their

> spiritual-sexual role as "Brides of Christ."

>

> If there are Christians who find this offensive, it is because

they are

> uneducated about their own religion. Because, doing research would

make

> them a heretic...

>

> I offer these ideas to illustrate that my comments were not

intended

> to offend anyone. My own attitude towards Christianity is best

expressed by

> a quote from Mark Twain: "Christianity would be a great religion, if

anyone

> ever tried it." In my experience, nobody ever does.

>

> Christ preached tolerance, and was forgiving of Samaritans and

> prostitutes. Certainly, "Most Christians" are quick to take offense

at many

> things.. it is a religion that is notorious for repression, from

burnt

> witches and executed heretics, to the current condition of

> bowing to moral majority pressure and removing adult email lists

from their

> directories.

>

> Would Christ approve? I doubt it.. perhaps a more appropriate

thread

> for this list, would be a debate about whether Christian repression

is a

> projection of Christian guilt for not behaving as Christians.

>

> I'm sorry to hear you have been robbed.. that is a personal

invasion

> that must be very stressful.

> Considering your situation and your defense of Christianity, the

New

> Testament quote that came to mind, is something like "If a man asks

for

> your shirt, give him your coat, too".. which suggests that the

proper

> Christian response to being robbed on-line would be to send the

thief a few

> thousand dollars more.

>

> I'm not suggesting you do that.. I wouldn't.. but then, I'm not

a

> Christian.

>

> >If either Harsha or the list members in general disagree with my

attempts

> >to moderate the list, I am happy to resign. If the list wishes to

debate

> >the merits of my judgement here and as a group wants the list to

have

> >other standards, its fine by me. Any further clarification or

debate is

> >welcome too.

>

> I don't think anyone has called for your resignation,

certainly I

> am not seeking it. The clarification is useful, I think, for all

concerned.

> If anyone knows how hard it is to be a list moderator, it's me. I've

been

> at the job longer than anybody here.

>

> If I can offer any suggestions to make the job easier, it would

be to

> always wait a day before responding to correct someone.. and

especially,

> before *reacting*.. and possibly over-reacting and making a mountain

out of

> a molehill. Reaction starts a chain reaction.. that is part of the

power

> and responsibility of moderator ship.

>

> I liked what Christopher wrote about when an empathic healer's

> centrifugal energy collides with somebody's blockages.. the person

with the

> blockage reacts with efforts to control, and the healer goes berserk

> manifesting the dis-ease.

> When the Karma shit hits the healer fan, the healer gets

spattered and

> ends up manifesting the dis-ease.. no kidding! I make a passing,

innocent

> remark about my life, and the whole place gets in an uproar trying

to

> control the crazy Witch.

>

> This ain't my stuff, Gloria. My energy poked your stuff, and

you

> reacted to try to control me... and I do not accept it. I have ended

up

> spending days bent out of shape, clearing stuff that is not my

issue. It is

> your projections about what you *thought* I wrote. Stuff that you

are not

> interested in clearing from yourself, when it is so much easier to

project

> it onto me, with blame and efforts at control.

> You do not see that, at all.. you ask me why I take it

personally. Oy.

>

> >Angelique, you have not been moderated or asked to leave or banned.

A

> >simple request was made that the list was not a place for

discussions of

> >BDSM in general, but most specifically, it was the use of the cross

that I

> >reacted to.

>

> Well, with clarification it seems that what I actually wrote,

and what

> you read are two quite different things...

>

> Yes, you *reacted* with a pretty typical knee-jerk Christian

> repressive response to what you *thought* I was saying... not to

what I

> actually did say. While I respect that list moderator is a tough

job, I

> tend to have little patience with that kind of thing.

>

> You have not had the experiences I have had, of harassment by

> "Christians" reacting to who they think I am and what they think I

do. Oh,

> the stories I could tell. You have no idea. I walk around being my

natural,

> happy heretical self, with my centrifugal field, and people act like

I'm

> the devil incarnate. My heart voice named me well, Angelique

Serpent.. but,

> it promised I would not get lynched...

>

> Christian Projections of their dis-ease have been an excuse to

kill

> more people than any war or disease in history.. and they are so

stuck in

> the righteousness that they never for a moment stop to consider that

> perhaps the problem is within them, and not with that which they

judge.

>

> I'm sooo fed up with Christians using the motive of protecting

their

> sacred cows as an excuse for everything from internet censorship to

> murdering abortion Doctors. Not you specifically, you just

manifested a

> minor case of something I come up against, too often.

>

> On a related topic.. Someone asked about the situation with

porn

> and censorship: was going to enter the porn industry to raise

> capital, but they got so many complaints from the moral majority,

that

> instead they decided to go on a Witch-hunt and remove all sex

related

> advertising from their search engine directory, remove all sex

related

> lists from their clubs and listings, and delete many of the

adult

> groups and clubs.

>

> Try it yourself. I did. Go to the main page, and do

a

> search on "sex". The result is "Sorry, no matches were found for

sex." Same

> result if you type in Kundalini sex. That means someone who might

need to

> find my Kundalini-sex list, for people who are trying to come to

terms with

> the intense sexuality that is one of the first side effects of

awakening,

> is out of luck... thanks to Christians and their knee-jerk

reactions.

> People looking for information on safe sex, or on sexually

transmitted

> diseases are out of luck, too. I know, I checked. So are people

looking for

> information on Christian sexuality, or sexual celibacy. The keyword

> "Homosexual" gives the same result. So much for suicidal gay

teenagers

> trying to find a compassionate ear.

> Want to complain about censorship? Send your comments to

> investor_relations

>

> Ironically, a search on BDSM yields 100 lists. There ya go.

Apparently,

> BDSM is not sex.. :)

> Blessings..

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Guest guest

, "Jessica White" <ellam-ondre@h...> wrote:

> Sheesh!

> Talk about beating a dead thread!

> Does anyone have a needle so we can sew this one up?

>

> (no disrespect intended Angelique, just finished my chocolate and I

couldn't

> resist ; ) )

>

> Love,

> ~jess

>

 

 

At least snip before you start sewing, Jess, please ?

 

There are lots of ppl on the digest version of the list and they

would appreciate not having super long mails repeated over and over

again in the digest. It only takes a moment to snip.

 

On beforehand thanks.

 

Amanda.

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