SDdasa

In the Indian spiritual tradition there are officially only 3 schools of Vedanta (Advaita, Visistadvaita, Dvaita), all of these accept the prasthana trayam as their authority (BG chapter IX text 15, for reference to these 3 schools).

There are inconceivably many neo-vedanta schools in the market posing as bonafide traditions. When choosing a system, one has to exercise extreme caution and rely on the Grace of God, so as not to be misled into false doctrines.

Advaita (non dualism) emphasises the oneness of the ultimate Reality. The fundamental problem of Advaita monism is to account for the world of plurality and the infinite number of souls. According to absolute monism, propounded by Sankara, the universe is not ultimately real but a phenomenal appearance of Reality. The ultimate Reality is absolutely one in a sense that it does not admit any kind of differentiation either internal or external

According to Visistadvaita the ultimate Reality, though one is not the Absolute without any differentiation since such a transcendental undifferentiated Being is inconceivable and also logically untenable.

The distinctive feature of Visistadvaita, compared to Advaita and Dvaita is its conception of Reality, which while affirming the ultimate unity of the Absolute allows differentiation through its mode (prakaras) without implying any fundamental difference in the Reality itself. Visistadvaita acknowledges 3 fundamental real entities - matter (acit), soul (cit) and God (Isvara) - and on the basis of the principle of organic relation, upholds that ultimate Reality is one in unity.

Isvara, the creator of the universe in the immanent ground of existence and the inner self of all things in the universe, and as such He sustains and controls cit and acit. Cit and Acit are dependent on Isvara for their existence and are organically related to Isvara in the way the physical body is related to the soul. The oneness of Reality is to be understood not in the sense of absolute identity but as an organic unity.

Visistadvaita fundamental position is that the Supreme Reality is the Highest Personal God (Sriman Narayana), possessing innumerable auspicious qualities and devoid of any inauspicious qualities. The individual soul is a spark of God and is similar to God in respect of cosmic function; God, the Creator of the Universe and the souls always remain separate and subservient to Him and completely dependent upon His existence.

SDdasa

Post deleted by jndas

Post deleted by jndas

“what is your view of Padma Purana Uttara-khanda 193.3”

My view;

Puranas (Bhagavata, Padma etc), are secondary sources relegated to the category of arthavada (metaphorical passage). The descriptive passages, illustrations, parables and stories are taken as indirectly implying the eulogy or deprecation of certain course of action and as such need not be taken as absolute authority.

Hare Krsna

”The omniscient great God Visnu at once manifested Himself before me as Sri Krsna, the eternal son of Nanda and forthwith Sri Laksmidevi became Radhika followed by Bhudevi as Chandravalli”.

Srila Santana Goswami in Brhat Bhagavatamrtam, part 2 chapter 4 (Vaikunta nama)

“what is your view of Padma Purana Uttara-khanda 193.3”

My view;

Puranas (Bhagavata, Padma etc), are secondary sources relegated to the category of arthavada (metaphorical passage). The descriptive passages, illustrations, parables and stories are taken as indirectly implying the eulogy or deprecation of certain course of action and as such need not be taken as absolute authority.

Hare Krsna

”The omniscient great God Visnu at once manifested Himself before me as Sri Krsna, the eternal son of Nanda and forthwith Sri Laksmidevi became Radhika followed by Bhudevi as Chandravalli”.

Srila Santana Goswami in Brhat Bhagavatamrtam, part 2 chapter 4 (Vaikunta nama)

There was no Gaudiya Math prior to Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati. He institutionalised and initiated the tridandi sanyasa order, based on sri sampradaya tradition.

Narayana Maharaj (VNN) quote “Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura took many teachings from Sri Ramanujacarya, such as the duties of sannyasis, the duties of disciples, and Vaisnava etiquette. He utilized 108 teachings. We follow these, and we have also published them in our Bhagavata Patrika and Gaudiya Patrika (Hindi and Bengali Magazines)”.

Shivadasaji

I am still waiting for the vedic shastric evidence that claims:

Narayana is worship as God, Krsna lila is God without worship

If you can’t give, then there is no point in continuing this one sided discussion with you

You asked – “Why do you not accept the puranas”

Refer to my post – Degree of Authority, I have stated my reasons, if you can’t comprehend, bad luck..

You said “your attempt to belittle gaudiya vaisnavism will meet an illfated end”

Don’t threaten, defend your position, after all gaudiya master were experts at defeating their opponents.

Is the such a thing called “gaudiya vaisnavism” ?

I thought the Padma purana only mentions 4 bonafide sampardayas, where does gaudiya fit ?

Surely you are aware chaitanya took initiation from Advaita (mayavada) teachers, and like you he also had a mayavada brahmachari name.

So there is no question of belittling a defunct sampradayam

Shivadasaji

I am still waiting for the vedic shastric evidence that claims:

Narayana is worship as God, Krsna lila is God without worship

If you can’t give, then there is no point in continuing this one sided discussion with you

You asked – “Why do you not accept the puranas”

Refer to my post – Degree of Authority, I have stated my reasons, if you can’t comprehend, bad luck..

You said “your attempt to belittle gaudiya vaisnavism will meet an illfated end”

Don’t threaten, defend your position, after all gaudiya master were experts at defeating their opponents.

Is the such a thing called “gaudiya vaisnavism” ?

I thought the Padma purana only mentions 4 bonafide sampardayas, where does gaudiya fit ?

Surely you are aware chaitanya took initiation from Advaita (mayavada) teachers, and like you he also had a mayavada brahmachari name.

So there is no question of belittling a defunct sampradayam

Shivadasa ji, where have I ever stated the following:

a) That Krishna is not God ?

b) That Bhagavad gita is bogus ?

c) that Vaisnavism is bogus ?

Don’t lie.

Can’t you read and digest? I have clearly stated my authority - the prasthana trayam Obviously, you are an ill informed, ignorant soul.

My response was to your comment - Bhagavatm purana 1.3.28

ete camsa-kalah pumsah

krsnas tu bhagavan svayam

indrari-vyakulam lokam

mrdayanti yuge yuge

All of the above-mentioned incarnations are either plenary portions or portions of the plenary portions of the Lord, but Lord Sri Krsna is the original Personality of Godhead. All of them appear on planets whenever there is a disturbance created by the atheists. The Lord incarnates to protect the theists.

The subsequent verse of the Bhagavata, indrari-vyakulam lokam mrdayanti yuge yuge,

i.e when there is trouble from enemies of Indra, "they" protect Yuga after Yuga.

The verb mrdayanti (they protect) – is plural, the subject should be plural and an interpretation of a singular subject is not possible for this reason. Gaudiya masters conveniently interpret Krishna as a singular subject, to excuse Krsna from being a mere fragment

You stated

"Narayana is also that person, but Narayana is worshipped as god, Krishna lila is god without the worship, without God being treated as god.

this is the conception of the bhagavatam,and other puranas, and other vedic shastra".

Please give me the valid vedic shastric references (no puranas)to support your claim.

Haribol /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Shivadasa ji, where have I ever stated the following:

a) That Krishna is not God ?

b) That Bhagavad gita is bogus ?

c) that Vaisnavism is bogus ?

Don’t lie.

Can’t you read and digest? I have clearly stated my authority - the prasthana trayam Obviously, you are an ill informed, ignorant soul.

My response was to your comment - Bhagavatm purana 1.3.28

ete camsa-kalah pumsah

krsnas tu bhagavan svayam

indrari-vyakulam lokam

mrdayanti yuge yuge

All of the above-mentioned incarnations are either plenary portions or portions of the plenary portions of the Lord, but Lord Sri Krsna is the original Personality of Godhead. All of them appear on planets whenever there is a disturbance created by the atheists. The Lord incarnates to protect the theists.

The subsequent verse of the Bhagavata, indrari-vyakulam lokam mrdayanti yuge yuge,

i.e when there is trouble from enemies of Indra, "they" protect Yuga after Yuga.

The verb mrdayanti (they protect) – is plural, the subject should be plural and an interpretation of a singular subject is not possible for this reason. Gaudiya masters conveniently interpret Krishna as a singular subject, to excuse Krsna from being a mere fragment

You stated

"Narayana is also that person, but Narayana is worshipped as god, Krishna lila is god without the worship, without God being treated as god.

this is the conception of the bhagavatam,and other puranas, and other vedic shastra".

Please give me the valid vedic shastric references (no puranas)to support your claim.

Haribol /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Sanatana Goswami Sri Brihat Bhagavatamritam (Vaikunta nama) Gaudiya math publication

These devotees of respective incarnations of Lord Narayana get the full liberty to serve to their full contentment the manifestation of their choice;. These different manifestations of Bhagavan Sri Narayana are essentially one and the same vaibhava aspects of the one Divinity. They are one and the same though morphologically they maintain their eternal separate existence;..

In the spiritual vision of a devotee different aspects of Sri Krsna may appear; different sportive lands amy appear. The same Lord of Vaikunta, the land of transcendence eternally remains in the different manifestations at different holy places such as Bhadridham, Sriksetra dham to the sole blissful pleasure of his single minded devotee

Sanatana Goswami Sri Brihat Bhagavatamritam (Vaikunta nama) Gaudiya math publication

These devotees of respective incarnations of Lord Narayana get the full liberty to serve to their full contentment the manifestation of their choice;. These different manifestations of Bhagavan Sri Narayana are essentially one and the same vaibhava aspects of the one Divinity. They are one and the same though morphologically they maintain their eternal separate existence;..

In the spiritual vision of a devotee different aspects of Sri Krsna may appear; different sportive lands amy appear. The same Lord of Vaikunta, the land of transcendence eternally remains in the different manifestations at different holy places such as Bhadridham, Sriksetra dham to the sole blissful pleasure of his single minded devotee

Shivadasaji, PAMHO

Bhagavata Purana is your authority so I quoted it to establish my position.

For me the Prasthana trayam is the principal authority, Bhagavata Purana is secondary, serving as Artha vada (metaphorical passage). You have to refer me to the Prasthana Trayam to counter my position.

I am sure you are capable of understanding this simple logic.

Hare Krsna, your humble servant

SDdasa

Shivadasaji, PAMHO

Bhagavata Purana is your authority so I quoted it to establish my position.

For me the Prasthana trayam is the principal authority, Bhagavata Purana is secondary, serving as Artha vada (metaphorical passage). You have to refer me to the Prasthana Trayam to counter my position.

I am sure you are capable of understanding this simple logic.

Hare Krsna, your humble servant

SDdasa

"Narayana is the work aspect,Visnu, Radha krishna is god

at play, Narayana is A personality of Godhead,

Radha Krishna is the more intimate side,the enjoying aspect"

Its just your sectarian opinion ...

A Gaudiya authority remark on Lord Krsna's manifestation

Sanatana Goswami Sri Brihat Bhagavatamritam (Vaikunta nama) Gaudiya math publication

These devotees of respective incarnations of Lord Narayana get the full liberty to serve to their full contentment the manifestation of their choice;. These different manifestations of Bhagavan Sri Narayana are essentially one and the same vaibhava aspects of the one Divinity. They are one and the same though morphologically they maintain their eternal separate existence;..

In the spiritual vision of a devotee different aspects of Sri Krsna may appear; different sportive lands amy appear. The same Lord of Vaikunta, the land of transcendence eternally remains in the different manifestations at different holy places such as Bhadridham, Sriksetra dham to the sole blissful pleasure of his single minded devotee

"Narayana is the work aspect,Visnu, Radha krishna is god

at play, Narayana is A personality of Godhead,

Radha Krishna is the more intimate side,the enjoying aspect"

Its just your sectarian opinion ...

A Gaudiya authority remark on Lord Krsna's manifestation

Sanatana Goswami Sri Brihat Bhagavatamritam (Vaikunta nama) Gaudiya math publication

These devotees of respective incarnations of Lord Narayana get the full liberty to serve to their full contentment the manifestation of their choice;. These different manifestations of Bhagavan Sri Narayana are essentially one and the same vaibhava aspects of the one Divinity. They are one and the same though morphologically they maintain their eternal separate existence;..

In the spiritual vision of a devotee different aspects of Sri Krsna may appear; different sportive lands amy appear. The same Lord of Vaikunta, the land of transcendence eternally remains in the different manifestations at different holy places such as Bhadridham, Sriksetra dham to the sole blissful pleasure of his single minded devotee

Hare Krsna

Based on the Srimad Bhagavatam and other secondary sources, the following texts show that Sriman Narayana is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Srimad Bhagavatam (SB), 10th canto chapter 1 text 2

yados ca dharma-silasya

nitaram muni sattama

tatramsenavatirnasya

visnor viryani samsa nah

O best of the munis, you also described the descendents of Yadu who are very pious and strictly adherent to religious principles. Now if you will, kindly describe the wonderful, glorious activities of Lord Visnu, who appeared in that Yadu dynasty with Baladeva, His plenary expansion.

Following the upkrama upasamhara principle of interpretation, the above text in the opening passage on the Advent of Krsna, bulk of the texts in the chapter has to be in harmony and interpreted in reference to the opening text.

Following this rule it is clear that the Krsna avatara is the manifestations of Lord Vishnu's activities.

SB, 10th canto, chapter 3, text 46

sri suka uvaca

ity uktvasid dharis tusim

bhgavan atma mayaay

pitroh sampasyatoh sadyo

babhuva prakrtah sisuh

Sukadeva said: After thus instructing His father and mother, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna remained silent. In their presence by His internal energy, He then transformed Himself into a small child.

Please note that Gaudiya acarya has added the following :

in other words He transformed Himself into His original form: krsnas tu bhagavan svayam;

It is self evident from the text, that after showing His Visnu form with 4 hands (10th canto chapter 3, text 10 to 44 ); the Lord (when requested by Devaki, for fear of Kamsa harming the child), assumed the form of a child. Nowhere, in the text is stated that the Lord transformed to His original form.

Other non- gaudiya authorities; testimonies from Srimad Bhagavatam;

Devaki, SB, 10th Canto, chapter 3, text 4

Tvam saksad visnur adhyatma dipah

Thou art verily Visnu the Supreme Light

Gargamuni, SB, 10th canto chapter 8, text 19

Tasman anadatmajo yam te Narayana samo gunaih

O Nanda ! This child of yours is equal to Lord Narayana Himself in respect to His qualities

This statement refutes the gaudiya claim that Krsna has "4 more qualities" than Sriman Narayana

Sukadeva, SB, 2nd Canto chapter 1 text 16

Narayana paro yogo Narayana param tapah

Narayana param jnanam Narayana para gatih

The final destination of all beings is Narayana..

Akura SB 10th canto chapter 40 text 1

Narayanam purusam adyam avyayam

I prostrate before Narayana, the Primordial and Indestructible Person

Lord Shiva in Varaha Purana

Visnureva param brahma tribhedamiha pathaye

Veda siddhanta margesu tanna jananti mohitah

Visnu is verily the Supreme Being: desribed as threefold in the schools of the vedic doctrines. The beguiled fools do not know this.

Gaudiya source: Srila Santana Goswami in Brhat Bhagavatamrtam, part 2 chapter 4 (Vaikunta nama) published by Gaudiya math

The omniscient great God Visnu at once manifested Himself before me as Sri Krsna, the eternal son of Nanda and forthwith Sri Laksmidevi became Radhika followed by Bhudevi as Chandravalli.

Gaudiya acaryas ki jai

Complied by SDdasa

Hare Krsna

Based on the Srimad Bhagavatam and other secondary sources, the following texts show that Sriman Narayana is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Srimad Bhagavatam (SB), 10th canto chapter 1 text 2

yados ca dharma-silasya

nitaram muni sattama

tatramsenavatirnasya

visnor viryani samsa nah

O best of the munis, you also described the descendents of Yadu who are very pious and strictly adherent to religious principles. Now if you will, kindly describe the wonderful, glorious activities of Lord Visnu, who appeared in that Yadu dynasty with Baladeva, His plenary expansion.

Following the upkrama upasamhara principle of interpretation, the above text in the opening passage on the Advent of Krsna, bulk of the texts in the chapter has to be in harmony and interpreted in reference to the opening text.

Following this rule it is clear that the Krsna avatara is the manifestations of Lord Vishnu's activities.

SB, 10th canto, chapter 3, text 46

sri suka uvaca

ity uktvasid dharis tusim

bhgavan atma mayaay

pitroh sampasyatoh sadyo

babhuva prakrtah sisuh

Sukadeva said: After thus instructing His father and mother, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna remained silent. In their presence by His internal energy, He then transformed Himself into a small child.

Please note that Gaudiya acarya has added the following :

in other words He transformed Himself into His original form: krsnas tu bhagavan svayam;

It is self evident from the text, that after showing His Visnu form with 4 hands (10th canto chapter 3, text 10 to 44 ); the Lord (when requested by Devaki, for fear of Kamsa harming the child), assumed the form of a child. Nowhere, in the text is stated that the Lord transformed to His original form.

Other non- gaudiya authorities; testimonies from Srimad Bhagavatam;

Devaki, SB, 10th Canto, chapter 3, text 4

Tvam saksad visnur adhyatma dipah

Thou art verily Visnu the Supreme Light

Gargamuni, SB, 10th canto chapter 8, text 19

Tasman anadatmajo yam te Narayana samo gunaih

O Nanda ! This child of yours is equal to Lord Narayana Himself in respect to His qualities

This statement refutes the gaudiya claim that Krsna has "4 more qualities" than Sriman Narayana

Sukadeva, SB, 2nd Canto chapter 1 text 16

Narayana paro yogo Narayana param tapah

Narayana param jnanam Narayana para gatih

The final destination of all beings is Narayana..

Akura SB 10th canto chapter 40 text 1

Narayanam purusam adyam avyayam

I prostrate before Narayana, the Primordial and Indestructible Person

Lord Shiva in Varaha Purana

Visnureva param brahma tribhedamiha pathaye

Veda siddhanta margesu tanna jananti mohitah

Visnu is verily the Supreme Being: desribed as threefold in the schools of the vedic doctrines. The beguiled fools do not know this.

Gaudiya source: Srila Santana Goswami in Brhat Bhagavatamrtam, part 2 chapter 4 (Vaikunta nama) published by Gaudiya math

The omniscient great God Visnu at once manifested Himself before me as Sri Krsna, the eternal son of Nanda and forthwith Sri Laksmidevi became Radhika followed by Bhudevi as Chandravalli.

Gaudiya acaryas ki jai

Complied by SDdasa