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Kishalaya

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Posts posted by Kishalaya


  1.  

     

    I'm still quite certain, however, that an entity which neither exists nor does not exist cannot be proven using logic. For that matter, there is no shaastric basis for "anirvachaniiya" that I am aware of.

     

     

     

     

    Philosophy is not just about repeating shaastra, but some inferences come about inevitably. To really go about whether something can be proven by "logic" or not, one has to undergo traditional study -- which can be quite a long time. Even then we see that the tradition of Advaita and its conclusions have not died and a variety of sub-schools have sprung up. The situation is not so simple as to be discarded in two sentences. The concept may "feel" absurd, but that doesn't count.

     

     

     

    "everything is the material of the Lord." I'm not clear on how that is different from saying that everything is one in quality with the Lord.

     

    First of all, when speaking of inconceivable simultaneous oneness and difference, are you here discussing the oneness of a thing and its attributes, or the oneness of the Lord and His shakis? I was approaching it from the latter standpoint.

     

    My point is, if the relationship of the Lord and His shaktis is as the sun to the sun-rays, or the ocean to a mere drop of water, etc, then this concept of the relationship is quite clear. How can we say such things as this and then go on to say that the relationship is not amenable to logic? Our aachaaryas have given very concise descriptions to explain this, so what is so achintya about it? Why is the relationship not amenable to logical understanding, when the analogies illustrate a clear and simple oneness and difference relationship?

     

    If I'm not mistaken, OBL Kapoor touches on this when he compares Achintya Bheda Abheda and Dvaita-Advaita in his book _Philosophy and Religion of Sri Caitanya_. But I don't have a copy of this with me at present.

     


  2.  

    Exactly - that was how I responded to it. The fact that a material thing and its attributes are different, does not mean that the same holds true for spiritual things.

     

     

     

    The problem with Vishisthaadvaita is not about postulating difference, but one-ess. Achintya bhedaabheda is simply resorting to Sruti, not some concept like aprthak siddhi, and says "I don't know how, but that's what shaastra says". While Advaita and Dvaita do not have much work except for rejecting or making gross re-interpretation of significant parts of Sruti, respectively. In this light, aprthak siddhi, seems to be a compromise towards achintya.

     

     

    Many times I heard of Gaudiiyas speaking of an "achintya shakti,"

     

     

     

    This refers to the Lord and His energies working in ways which cannot be fathomed by logic - paraasya shaktir vividhaiva sruyate, svabhaaviki gyaana bala kriyaa ca. This is their inherent nature.

     

     

    when I see analogies like "sun vs. sun rays" used to explain the relationship of Lord and jiivas, I also wonder if the bheda and abheda taken together are truly so inconceivable.

     

     

     

    These analogies are not necessarily built up for debate. Achintya bhedaabheda concept of abheda is far stronger. There is "material" abheda between jiva, prakriti and Brahman. That is a straightforward corollary of saravam khalu idam brahma. The jiva is made up of the Lord (loosely translated as the material of the Lord -- however this is still a compromise), however they are not qualitatively the same -- figure that out! om puuranam adah puurnam idam puurnaat puuram udacyate puurnasya puuranam aadaaya puuranam evaavashisyate.

     

    The fact that achintya bhedaabheda does not have volumes upon volumes of philosophical works (commentary on a commentary on a commentary) speaks for its elegance.

     

     

    The Advaitin concept of "anirvachaniiya" does not even have logical basis

     

     

     

    Now, you can prove anything with logic, but how far is that concept in congruence with shaastra. The point is minimal interpretation of the whole body of shaastra, otherwise every school declares allegiance with sruti.

     

     

    Could you please explain what you mean by this? Are you saying that the oneness (in Achintya Bheda Abheda) refers to something else besides having similar spiritual quality? I would be interested to know.

     

    As far as I know, Dvaitins do not speak of any oneness at all, period, aside from perhaps, the oneness of a thing and its qualities which they describe as visesha.

     

     

     

    Yes the one-ness is "Everything is the Lord" - sarvam khalu idam brahma. Loosely understood as everything is the material of the Lord.

     

     

    Which is why our Sri Vaishnava friend wants to know why we must resort to "Achintya" when it is otherwise straightforward.

     

     

     

    Because such a relationship is not amenable to logic, and doing so requires some posturing -- either postulating things like aprthak siddhi, rejecting sruti vaakyas or reinterpreting sruti vaakyas, which are opposed to the philosophy, to bring out the exactly opposite meaning, than what a simple reading would convey.


  3.  

    1) That the oneness of a thing and its qualities is refuted by Vedaanta-suutra 2.2.12 (this one is easy to refute)

     

     

     

    That depends on what the adhikarana is talking about. Baladeva seems to be refuting vaishesika here! BTW, it is not the difference in a thing and its qualities that is the problem with aprthak siddhi, but the oneness (i.e. the aprithak part). Dvaita has no problem at all by such an interpretation of aprithak whereby one thing is an (eternal) appendage to another. Descriptions like "sharira-shariri" bring this out more clearly. However achintya bhedaabheda tries to be verbally true to the situation.

     

     

    2) That recourse to Achintya shakti does not "logically" resolve the relationship between the two entities (BVT only sort of touched on this)

     

     

     

    There is nothing as "achintya shakti" -- some kind of glue that holds everything together. The relationship itself between Brahman, prakriti and jiva is not amenable to logical description. Any attempt will require quite some distortion of the whole of sruti, not just some parts of it. This is not something new, Brahma suutra builds up its philosophy by taking recourse to shaastra alone where logical interpretation opposes sruti vaakya (BS 2.1.27) - srutestu shabdamuulatvaat

     

     

    3) That Gaudiiyas referring to Achintyatva is like Advaitins defending maayaa as anirvachaniiya

     

     

     

    Anirvachaniiya is a quality of "something" which is sad-asad vilakshana (neither existing nor non-existing) whereas achintya has nothing to do with asat. For example, om puurnam adah puurnam idam ... tells us the relation between Brahman and prakriti where further explanation is futile (notwithstanding aprithak siddhi :-) Indeed that prakriti can be materially Brahman without its imperfections projecting on Brahman -- a mundane example follows -- as Oxygen and Hydrogen mix to form a third substance which is qualitatively different from either of the two material causes -- so Brahman being material cause of prakriti should not cause alarm in Vedaantists -- because puurnam evaavashishyate (thus difference) where sarvam khalu idam brahma still holds (thus oneness). If our dear friends find achintya and anirvachaniiya to be synonyms, then perhaps they need to do some more research into both schools of thought.

     

     

    4) That Achintya need not be used to describe the oneness and difference of Lord and living entities because this is already explained by reference to oneness of quality and difference of quantity

     

     

     

    That seems to be Dvaita in compromise and not achintya bhedaabheda (whatever the source). Achintya Bhedaabheda's fidelity to "abheda" part (advaita part) is straightforward, simple, elegant and without any unnecessary posturing.

     

     

    5) That Srila Prabhupada and Srila Baladeva have differing views of the relationship of the living entities to the Supreme Lord

     

     

     

    I would surely not go to Akshara-Dhaama for Vishishtaadvaita philosophy.

     

     

    6) That the Gaudiiya interpretation of SB 1.2.11 does not logically result in three different aspects of the Lord - Brahman, Paramaatmaa, Bhagavaan being discussed - only three different names.

     

     

     

    quite true!

     

     

    7) that an attributeless Brahman cannot be part of the Lord who has attributes

     

     

     

    Since the above is not refuted by shaastra (sruti), the logic applies. Points 4, 5, 6 and 7 have absolutely nothing to do with achintya bhedaabheda.


  4.  

    In reply to:

    --

     

    destroyed by the bogus form of raagaanugaas that came into fashon after Srila Prabhupaada -- shoving a guilt feeling down the throats of those devotees who are not interested in becoming gopis

    In reply to:

    --

     

     

     

    RagAnuga marga which Mahaprabhu came to give is

    the path of spontaneous attachement for Krsna

    following in the footstesps of the residents of Vraja,

    (and particularly of the gopis)

     

    RagAnuga referes to all rasas in Vraja,

    not particularly to unnatojjvala rasa,

    following Rupa Manjari.

    Only rupAnugas are interested in becoming gopis.

     

    Sri Caitanya CaritAmRta Madya 17.144-145

     

    bhavakali vecite ami ailana kasipure

    grahaka nahi, na vikaya, lana yaba ghare

     

    "I have come here ,to sell My emotional ecstatic sentiments, in this city of Kasi, but I cannot find any customers. If they are not sold, I must take them back home.

     

    bhari bojha lana ailana, kemane lana yaba?

    alpa-svalpa-mulya paile, ethai veciba

     

    "I have brought a heavy load to sell in this city. To take it back again is a very difficult job; therefore if I get but a fraction of the price, I shall sell it here in this city of Kasi."

     

     

    your servant the outcast

     

     

     

     

    Note: Before you read the following. I am not saying every aspiring devotee has devotion equal to the siddha mentioned below. However those who are unbiased will be able to understand.

     

    CC Madhya 15:

     

    137: Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu then embraced Murari Gupta and began to speak about his firm faith in devotional service. This was heard by all the devotees.

     

    138: Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "Previously I induced Murari Gupta again and again to be allured by Lord Krishna. I said to him, 'My dear Gupta, Lord Sri Krishna, Vrajendra-kumara, is the supreme sweetness.

     

    139: "'Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the origin of all incarnations and the source of everything. He is pure transcendental love itself, and He is the reservoir of all pleasure.

     

    140: "'Krishna is the reservoir of all transcendental qualities. He is like a mine of gems. He is expert at everything, very intelligent and sober, and He is the summit of all transcendental humors.

     

    141: "'His character is very sweet, and His pastimes are melodious. He is expert in intelligence, and thus He enjoys all His pastimes and mellows.'

     

    142: "I then requested Murari Gupta, 'Worship Krishna and take shelter of Him. But for His service, nothing appeals to the mind.'

     

    143: "In this way, he heard from Me again and again. By My influence, his mind was a little converted.

     

    144: "Murari Gupta then replied, 'I am Your servant and Your order-carrier. I have no independent existence.'

     

    145: "After this, Murari Gupta went home and spent the whole night thinking how he would have to give up the association of Raghunatha, Lord Ramacandra. Thus he was overwhelmed.

     

    146: "Murari Gupta then began to pray at the lotus feet of Lord Ramacandra. He prayed that death would come that night because it was not possible for him to give up the service of the lotus feet of Raghunatha.

     

    147: "Thus Murari Gupta cried the entire night. There was no rest for his mind; therefore he could not sleep but stayed awake the entire night.

     

    148: "In the morning Murari Gupta came to see Me. Catching hold of My feet and crying, he submitted an appeal.

     

    149: "Murari Gupta said, 'I have sold my head unto the lotus feet of Raghunatha. I cannot withdraw my head, for that would give me too much pain.

     

    150: "'It is not possible for me to give up the service of Raghunatha's lotus feet. At the same time, if I do not do so I shall break Your order. What can I do?'

     

    151: "In this way Murari Gupta appealed to Me, saying, 'You are all-merciful, so kindly grant me this mercy: Let me die before You so that all my doubts will be finished.'

     

    152: "Hearing this, I became very happy. I then raised Murari Gupta and embraced him.

     

    153: "I said to him, 'All glories to you, Murari Gupta! Your method of worship is very firmly fixed-so much so that even upon My request your mind did not turn.

     

    154: "'The servitor must have love and affection for the lotus feet of the Lord exactly like this. Even if the Lord wants separation, a devotee cannot abandon the shelter of His lotus feet.

     

    PURPORT

    The word prabhu, or master, indicates that the Lord is to be continuously served by His devotee. The original prabhu is the Lord, Sri Krishna. Nonetheless, there are many devotees attached to Lord Ramacandra, and Murari Gupta is a vivid example of such unalloyed devotion. He never agreed to give up Lord Ramacandra's worship, not even upon Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's request. Such is the chastity of devotional service, as stated in the Antya-lila of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta (4.46-47):

    sei bhakta dhanya, ye na chade prabhura carana

    sei prabhu dhanya, ye na chade nija-jana

    durdaive sevaka yadi yaya anya sthane

    sei thakura dhanya tare cule dhari' ane

    In a firm relationship with the Lord, the devotee does not give up the Lord's service under any circumstance. As far as the Lord Himself is concerned, if the devotee chooses to leave, the Lord brings him back again, dragging him by the hair.

     

    155: "'Just to test your firm faith in your Lord, I requested you again and again to change your worship from Lord Ramacandra to Krishna.'

     

    156: "In this way, I congratulated Murari Gupta, saying, 'Indeed, you are the incarnation of Hanuman. Consequently you are the eternal servant of Lord Ramacandra. Why should you give up the worship of Lord Ramacandra and His lotus feet?'"

     

    157: Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu continued, "I accept this Murari Gupta as My life and soul. When I hear of his humility, it perturbs My very life."

     

    Kishalaya


  5.  

    I think we misunderstood the message,

    They should not leave IsKcon

    the ugly ones are those who left IsKcon.

     

    They didn't leave for ragAnugA, but were excomunicated because of bad association (with babaji and gaudya math).

    The inquisitive ones are the ugly

    the loyalists are the beautiful.

     

     

     

    What is the quote saying

     

    "ISKCON presaches not the mission of Chaitanya"

     

    and then

     

    "The beautiful ones with the beautiful, the ugly ones with the ugly, that is harmony".

     

    Now if ISKCON does not preach the mission of Chaitanya, then those who are in ISKCON are ugly.

     

    Now from what you have said (or tried to infer from the saying of another) that those who left ISKCON are ugly because they had bad association -- like babaji, if the word babaji is not qualified, it takes on the meaning - all (the then present) babajis. Why would all (such) babajis be bad association?

     

    Both these positions are fundamentalist bigotry.

     

    Kishalaya


  6.  

    I wonder if there was anything in this thread that prompted such a reply, suggesting that "ugly ones associate with ugly ones" and so forth? If yes, perhaps you could quote that in the quote-box of your response instead of what I wrote.

     

     

     

    My sincere apologies. I fully know I am at fault for not following the protocol. The quote can be found in the previous post and is perhaps by "anonymous".

     

    Kishalaya


  7.  

    In reply to:

    --

     

    Yes the goal is beyond Vaikuntha. Such high aspirations one must have. But I have a question. If those devotees who prefer awe and veneration go to Vaikuntha what is the destination of those that try to take to raganuga prematurely and simply imitate for whatever resaon?

    This question is really on one of curiousity as in my real life and in my heart I am somewhere below vaidhi in practice.

     

     

    --

     

     

    Since lobha is the qualification for raganuga-sadhana, and lobha is defined as that desire (for attaining the feelings of a Vraja-associate) which awakens without the force of scriptural commandment or logical conclusion, it is ludicrous to think that one could force himself into the practice of raganuga-sadhana just because he heard it should be done. It is never possible, such a person simply deceives himself. When greed for attaining the sweetness for the moods of the Vraja-loka attains, then qualification arises, and one begins to practice. Without eligibility one cannot practice, it will merely create a disturbance in the assembly of learned and thoughtful devotees.

     

     

     

    Thank you for that. In addition, some people will never become qualified because they LIKE something else which in traditional raagaanugaa terms is "awe and reverence". (Unless Sri Hari forcibly changes somebody's heart, but that is highly suspect -- Why couldn't Sri Gauraanga change Muraari Guptaa's heart? ). These people who like what is traditionally assumed to be "awe and reverence" have been treated like garbage by some who falsely claim to be Sri Gauraanga's only true followers. This mentality will NOT help the spread of the inner desires of Sri Gauraanga i.e. manjari bhaava. Feelings of antagonism towards those who do not view the world through one's own glasses is counter-productive. People quiety but surely shy away.

     

    However look at the ISKCON temples in South. They have deities like Baalaaji, Narshingha Deva, Satyabhaamaa-Rukmini-Dvaarkaadheesha in addition to traditional Gaudiya deities. Let the devotee choose. What is wrong with that? If he associates with raagaanugaa bhaktas and gets this "lobha", all glories to him, but if he does not, why call him "ugly ones associate with ugly ones". Does a devotee not even have this freedom to worship the deity in whose lotus feet he finds solace?

     

    Kishalaya


  8. I knew it.

    I always knew it.

    Iskcon preaches not the mission of Sri Caitanya,

    who came to give ragAnuga marga.

    and specially came to give manjari bhava

    samrpaitum unantojjvala rasa(m)

    sva bhakti Sriyam

     

    You know Goya? The painter?

    He said:

    The beautiful ones with the beautiful ones and

    the ugly ones with the ugly ones

    so that there is harmony !

     

    And what about the coyotes and shiva-coyote.

    And what about the mercy?

     

     

    Come on! Do you think Mahaaprabhu will kick those who do not understand manjari bhaava? Is He the sole property of the gopis? What a devotee of Narsingha Deva has no right to have feelings of devotion towards Mahaaprabhu? In this whole earth, till date, in my search, ISKCON is the only Gaudiya vaishnava organization with a liberal heart towards all devotees of Sri Hari. Srila Prabhupaada knew this very well -- and that is why He preached a very secular form of Vaishnavism, but that was all destroyed by the bogus form of raagaanugaas that came into fashon after Srila Prabhupaada -- shoving a guilt feeling down the throats of those devotees who are not interested in becoming gopis (i.e. interested in other lilaas of Sri Hari). I found genuine raagaanugaas (some of whom I have wrongly criticised because of my earlier impression of the bogus raagaanugaas), not only spread the inner desire of Sri Gauraanga i.e. manjari bhaava, but also appreciate all devotees of Sri Hari and one does not feel awkward in speaking with them because they are free from jealousy, envy, -- can genuinely empathise with an aspiring devotee's heart, since they are also aspiring devotees.

     

    Kishalaya


  9. Saayujya mukti may mean different things to different sampradaayas. In any case, mostly saayujya mukti seems to be same/similar to brahma kaivalya - Shankara's concept of mukti -- "a deep sleep like non experiential non differentiated singular existence". Here there remains no difference between the jiva and Brahman. Madhva surprisingly is categorical that mukti is saayujya mukti. However he qualifies that even in saayujya mukti, the mukta does not become Brahman, but maintains its atomic nature. He also says that the mukta then "partakes in the eternal sport of Hari". Now what that "sport" is, I have not yet found any reference to that. Baladeva has a more detailed account of mukti (here I have to depend on an English translation of the Govinda Bhaashya as I do not have the original sanskrit text), He says that in mukti, there is "union" of the mukta with Brahman of three kinds. The first -- when it is said that the jiva on attining mukti "enters" Brahman, it means he enters into the abode of Brahman. The abode of Sri Hari is Sri Hari Himself and non-different from Him. Even the Brahma Suutra says, The Lord resides in His own Glory. The second -- Sri Hari resides within the mukta. The above two kinds of union are constant and non-fluctuating. The third "union" is with an "external" form just as two people meet with each other. Feelings of separation (vipralambha) occur in the muktas when they are away from this "external" form -- even though they are in constant union with Sri Hari in the first two ways viz. Mukta is inside Brahman -- inside the abode of Sri Hari and Sri Hari residing inside the mukta.

     

    Kishalaya


  10. That picture of a woman worshipping the lila of "Gauraanga hugging Krishna" seems to be in a Bengali backdrop. Most probably, She is Srimati Vishnupriyaa Devi, the second wife of Sri Gauraanga (an educated guess).

     

    As for traditional disdain of Miraa in Gaudiya tradition, as per the recent information I have gathered (much more browsed), there are primarily two reasons. (Please note, I am not speaking here as a Gaudiya vaishnava representative, I am only trying to present things which I opine to be statements of fact).

     

    The lesser reason is that some quarters believe that her goal of spirituality was saayujya mukti, which again is sometimes grossly translated as "merging into Brahman" thus "trying to become one with Brahman" etc. As per Gaudiya tenets, aspirations for such mukti lead to total destruction (sarva-naash). Now how far it is true that Miraa wanted to "merge into Krishna", is an apt question. Personally, I have heard some songs attributed to Miraa which are dangerously close to "becoming one". However I do not know if she would sing in Sanskrit etc., so I find it difficult to attribute authorship of such poems to Miraa. Considering from the other side, it is a well known fact that a bhakta will never want to remove the distinction of mastership of His Lord and his position of being servant. As Hanumaana is traditionally assumed to say to Sri Raama, that He does not want such mukti where he is not His Lord's servant. When Sri Hari himself declares "tesaam satata yuktaanaam, bhajataam priti purvakam, dadami buddhi yogam tam yena maam upayanti te" - to an ekaantika devotee, The Lord Himself gives proper intelligence, I find it a bit difficult to accept that Miraa would indeed prefer kaivalya mukti above the sweetness of bhakti.

     

    Second, and the primary reason. The most devout followers of Sri Gauraanga are in a mood of the manjaris - The hand maids of Her Lordship, Srimati Gaandharvikaa. The extent of their devotion towards Her Lordship goes to the extremity of even excluding the agenda of Sri Krishna. The only goal of their existence is the pleasure of Her Lordship. I would not be wrong, if I were to say that their devotion to Sri Krishna exists only because He is THE object of love of their Lady. They have no direct relationship with Sri Krishna, and such a thought amounts to blasphemy.

    In this light, there are rumors that Miraa identified herself with Her Lordship -- this is sacrilege, maayaavaada -- arrogating the position of Brahman (Her Lordship) to a jiva (Miraa). Again, how far this is true of Miraa's own sentiments, needs to be found out and also if it was true initially (neophite stage), whether it remained true later? (Will Srimati Gaandharvikaa leave Vrindaavana and reside in Dvaarkaa???)

    My likely guess is that Miraa's utterings about being Vraja gopi were expressions of emotions which were somewhat similar in nature to those of the gopis (not those of the manjaris i.e. tad-bhaava-icchaa-mayi, but of the sambhog-icchaa-mayi category). It is also noteworthy that after meeting with Srila Jiva Gosvami, she finally decided to reside in Dvaarkaa. Miraa strictly considered Sri Krishna to be her Husband, about which Srila Rupa Gosvaami writes that people with such sentiments, on achieving siddhi, go on to associate with the Mahiishis - the queens of Krishna in Dvaarkaa. However such a goal is considered by Srila Ruupa Gosvaami to be outside the purview of raagaanugaa bhakti and needs vaidhi saadhanaa. It is interesting to speculate that Miraa received the saadhanaa padhati from Srila Jiva Gosvaami and spent the rest of her life in a dhaama conducive to her mood of devotion.

     

    Kishalaya


  11. That picture of a woman worshipping the lila of "Gauraanga hugging Krishna" seems to be in a Bengali backdrop. Most probably, She is Srimati Vishnupriyaa Devi, the second wife of Sri Gauraanga (an educated guess).

     

    As for traditional disdain of Miraa in Gaudiya tradition, as per the recent information I have gathered (much more browsed), there are primarily two reasons. (Please note, I am not speaking here as a Gaudiya vaishnava representative, I am only trying to present things which I opine to be statements of fact).

     

    The lesser reason is that some quarters believe that her goal of spirituality was saayujya mukti, which again is sometimes grossly translated as "merging into Brahman" thus "trying to become one with Brahman" etc. As per Gaudiya tenets, aspirations for such mukti lead to total destruction (sarva-naash). Now how far it is true that Miraa wanted to "merge into Krishna", is an apt question. Personally, I have heard some songs attributed to Miraa which are dangerously close to "becoming one". However I do not know if she would sing in Sanskrit etc., so I find it difficult to attribute authorship of such poems to Miraa. Considering from the other side, it is a well known fact that a bhakta will never want to remove the distinction of mastership of His Lord and his position of being servant. As Hanumaana is traditionally assumed to say to Sri Raama, that He does not want such mukti where he is not His Lord's servant. When Sri Hari himself declares "tesaam satata yuktaanaam, bhajataam priti purvakam, dadami buddhi yogam tam yena maam upayanti te" - to an ekaantika devotee, The Lord Himself gives proper intelligence, I find it a bit difficult to accept that Miraa would indeed prefer kaivalya mukti above the sweetness of bhakti.

     

    Second, and the primary reason. The most devout followers of Sri Gauraanga are in a mood of the manjaris - The hand maids of Her Lordship, Srimati Gaandharvikaa. The extent of their devotion towards Her Lordship goes to the extremity of even excluding the agenda of Sri Krishna. The only goal of their existence is the pleasure of Her Lordship. I would not be wrong, if I were to say that their devotion to Sri Krishna exists only because He is THE object of love of their Lady. They have no direct relationship with Sri Krishna, and such a thought amounts to blasphemy.

    In this light, there are rumors that Miraa identified herself with Her Lordship -- this is sacrilege, maayaavaada -- arrogating the position of Brahman (Her Lordship) to a jiva (Miraa). Again, how far this is true of Miraa's own sentiments, needs to be found out and also if it was true initially (neophite stage), whether it remained true later? (Will Srimati Gaandharvikaa leave Vrindaavana and reside in Dvaarkaa???)

    My likely guess is that Miraa's utterings about being Vraja gopi were expressions of emotions which were somewhat similar in nature to those of the gopis (not those of the manjaris i.e. tad-bhaava-icchaa-mayi, but of the sambhog-icchaa-mayi category). It is also noteworthy that after meeting with Srila Jiva Gosvami, she finally decided to reside in Dvaarkaa. Miraa strictly considered Sri Krishna to be her Husband, about which Srila Rupa Gosvaami writes that people with such sentiments, on achieving siddhi, go on to associate with the Mahiishis - the queens of Krishna in Dvaarkaa. However such a goal is considered by Srila Ruupa Gosvaami to be outside the purview of raagaanugaa bhakti and needs vaidhi saadhanaa. It is interesting to speculate that Miraa received the saadhanaa padhati from Srila Jiva Gosvaami and spent the rest of her life in a dhaama conducive to her mood of devotion.

     

    Kishalaya


  12. Just my 2 cents worth!

     

    Let us face it. Without money, no organizations, no temples, no preaching and no charity is possible. Hard fact of life. Vivekananda and therefore Prabhupada, went all the way to America only because that was the best place to start in terms of acquiring resources. There were several countries on the way they could have chosen for preaching, but that would have been bad strategy. No matter how much spiritual one is, if he wishes to propogate his ideas, he needs money - plain and simple. Hence the rush for Indian godmen to go to America and not to kazhakstan or Namibia.

     

    The need for money is correct. But what is the intent behind them. Accumulation of arms are by themselves neither good or bad, but for what purpose and how much, that is the question. Yesterday I was disturbed on account of some lack of spiritual understanding, but when I opened Prabhupada's Bhagavatam 1st canto, I was relieved. Without money would that have been possible in today's world. In olden times a brahmana's request was taken as life and soul by the king who would open his treasury if the former just once asked for funds in matters of dharma.

     

    You are kidding, I am sure. India with it's vast religious literature has nothing to contribute to the world. Spiritual knowledge is just spiritual knowledge and is in no way "the essence of all learning". Every technology and modern comfort [such as your computer for instance] you use has nothing to with spiritual knowledge.

     

    These computers and other things which we are so proud of today, are workarounds (sometimes even excuses) for our own laziness. These things have become necessary because we have created a need for them. How much happiness does the world have today in comparison to a hundred, a thousand or a million years ago? happiness that is, not abundance of sophisticated toys! I am fully convinced, a person situated in a higher taste has absolutely no hankering for these toys. Bhagavatam mentiones that material progress and accumulation should be done only to live a peaceful life in which the major portion of the time is spent in God realization. However just look at the pathetic state of today's "progressive" world where just to earn one's bread and butter takes nearly the whole of one's time. Is there any more proof needed for kaliyug!

     

    As far as I am concerned, killing a cow is no worse than killing any other animal; I simply cannot impose an artifical criterion that killing a cow is somehow a more serious offense because some joker said so many centuries past. Animal killing has been going on in India from time immemorial and is not something that was learnt from the west. Progress is when people begin to live better lives and have a pragmatic view towards life, compared to the original closed, rigid outlook of the Indian way of life.

     

    All killing is bad, but this is the material world that one is accruing sins even by existing "jivah jivasya jivanam". Of course, you may find scriptures as writings of "jokers", however if they turn out to be not, you may have a problem later. Therefore some people like myself take a more cautious approach and do try to follow them, because we do not consider our fathers and forefathers to have had a less critical bent of mind than those inhabiting the world today.

    And about the "animal killing" in scriptures, some great authorities who are conversant exactly, what the flow of each text is, find these quotations to be interpolations most probably by the imperial British to undermine the culture of the sanaatan dharma. About your "pragmatic view of life", if you have studied the philosophy of ethics, you may have found that western philosophy with all its theories is still not able to justify a paricular ethical system. Each society creates its own pragmatic ethical system which is why the world today is in a such a deplorable state. It is a shame that humans being accidentally endowed with superior intelligence use the pretext of "pragmatic ethics" where the wilful killing of humans is termed "murder" and the wilful killing of animals is termed as "economy".

     

    When speaking of a country, material progress is all there is. Spiritual progress is purely a personal thing and it makes no sense to extend it to a whole country. Let us talk reality. Spiritual literature is written by a tiny fraction of the population and it is incorrect to think India was spiritual because vast amounts of literature was churned out from that area. If you want the correct picture, look at what the majority of the people did/do.

     

     

    Majority of the Indians today ape the west and that too all the bad things. Nobody will copy the traffic discipline of the west but boozing whoring are all on par. Therefore the Indians by nature are not suited for material advancement. However an illeterate rickshaw puller here knows he is not the body! In any case, it will be too simplistic to judge the character of a land based solely on the character of its current popluation. Spiritual progress may be a personal thing, however great thinkers (who you would probably like to call jokers) considered it to be a necessary one too and out of compassion took pains to spread spiritual message far and wide for the sake of humanity at large.

     

    -Kishalaya


  13. "but are you trying to say that these rasas are differentiated in the view of lord krishna or in the view of the bhakthas..."

     

    neither, they are differentiated from a "third party", "neutral" (whatever that means) viewpoint.

     

    kintu yanra yei rasa, sei sarvottama

    tata-stha hana vicarile, ache tara-tama

     

    Let me reverse (as I view it)

     

    This "tatastha hana vicaarile", considering from a position of "neutrality" (tatastha - situated on the border), there is gradation (taaratamya).

    BUT (kintu) whoever is situated in whatever rasa (yanra yei rasa), that one is the BEST for that person (sei sarvottama). Mark the word sarva-uttama - best among all others.


  14. Of course at our platform, we can only speculate. We won't know what is what, and such understanding is not necessary for Krishna consciousness.

    The main problem I see with "traditionalists", is that the influence such a paradigm has on the mundane sphere. The conception of "lower" rasa and "higher" rasa is often so much highlighted to a point of distortion. Things like vaikuntha-vaasis are "lower", Gods in Goloka "kick out" people doing vaidhi bhakti etc. (Well, in my case, such Gods do not inspire devotion :-).

    Maayaa baddha jeevas often forget that the "lowest" in Vaikuntha is maayaateeta -- absolutely beyond maayaa. Simply by their desire, in a snap, they can liberate the whole universe, e.g. Vaasudeva Datta.

     

    Kishalaya


  15. "This subject is way past me though of course we are all curious. The natural question for the "traditionalist" would be why did that jiva come into contact with particular realized soul."

     

    Their answer is that previous (or recent) samskaar -- i.e. personality traits developed in previous (recent) lives, attracts a soul to a particular taste. This samskaar is due to engagement with maayaa. Of course, samskaar can also lead one into maayaa away from God, however due to past "sukriti", -- service (somehow knowingly or otherwise) rendered that is favourable towards developing bhakti, the soul is attracted to God.

     

    Kishalaya


  16. "PRABHUPADA: The change is taking place in this material world. There all tastes are fixed up, rasa, eternal, eternal rasa. Every one of us has a different taste of associating with Krishna, and that will be realised when one is liberated. "

     

    Thank You livingentity ji for the Prabhupaada quotes!

     

    I cannot help but agree 100% with Prabhupaada here. Whatever small insignificant experience I have collected in my journey in Krishna Consciousness, my conclusions seem to get more and more aligned with what Prabhupaada said.

     

    There are, however, other views (not certainly something that I can vouch for) also among "traditional" Gaudiya vaishnavas that a taste for a relationship can be developed by sufficient association with devotees in that particular relationship and that the svaroopa may be a function of the mood developed, not something that is inherently present in a baddha jeeva.

     

    Kishalaya


  17. tava kaathamritam tapta-jiivanam kavibhir iditam kalmasaapaham

    sravana-mangalam sriimad aatatam bhuvi grinanti ye bhuri-da janaah

     

    My Lord, the nectar of Your words and the descriptions of Your activities are the life and soul of those suffering in this material world. These narrations, transmitted by learned sages, eradicate one's sinful reactions and bestow good fortune upon whoever hears them. These narrations are broadcast all over the world and are filled with spiritual power. Those who spread the message of Godhead are certainly the most munificent welfare workers.

     

     


  18. "I don't see where anyone in this thread has even suggested that the Two are not One."

     

    Forgive my intrusion.

     

    Her Lordship is Krishnamayii. In that sense they are one. This talk of shakti etc. is too impersonal. Even in this jada maayic jagat, when we relate we do not talk like one jeeva is relating to another jeeva. A person is relating to another person. So how more personal the divine realm would be. I, personally, do not have any tendency towards the concept of oneness.

     

    Kishalaya


  19. I really do not understand all this vipralambha as end in

    itself. I mean, my reasoning does not accept it. Therefore

    I also think Jiva Gosvami was also thinking like that.

    That ultimately, the wish of the gopis to meet must be

    fulfilled by Krishna (and perhaps get married -- I don't

    want to get into a philosophical war now!!) before

    ascending in the spiritual world. In the spiritual world

    they remember vipralambha but do not wish it to happen.

    I think this is either in Krishna Sandarbha or Gopala

    Champu.

     

    -Kishalaya


  20. This fellow is a sociologist and IMHO, the effort he has

    taken to minutely examine the history and sociology of

    Chaitanya Vaishnavism, if this is his minor effort, then

    he would probably be in nitya lilaa by now, if his

    raganuga bhajan is the "major" effort /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

     

    However I think I was too harsh on him and had formed

    opinion in the earlier posts by going only through 1/10th

    of the material he has placed on his web site. In any case,

    I still do not agree with his over emphasis on the single

    spot on the otherwise white cloth. /images/graemlins/frown.gif Where does he find

    all that time for these things along with adjusting Hari

    Katha, Raganuga Bhajan, Siddha Pranali etc. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

     

    -Kishalaya


  21. Jaya Jaya Nityaananda Jaya Jaya Gaurachandra

     

    I have to add a few more things here. For those who have

    been associated with Prabhupada's writings in any way,

    let me ask them -- who introduced Krishna to us? No

    doubt all of us had heard about Krishna, Vrindaavan,

    Mahaabhaarat etc. from various sources earlier, but how

    many of us were moved? Let us now be very truthful with

    ourselves.

     

    The least one can to do is to try to recognise his

    greatness. Instead some of us in our pursuit of babaji

    bhajan try to marginalize his position as "I thank him

    for what I learned from him!" Thank? Just thank and

    go on to spew nonsense like paramparaa integrity and so on

    even to the point of saying "sruti smriti puraanaadi

    pancharaata vidhim vinaa aikaantiki harer bhakti

    utpaataaiva kalpate". Man this fellow has gone nuts.

     

    Babaji bhajan is good. When one has found a way, it is very

    good, but what is the need to demean the one who brought

    Krishna to you, just to justify one's own position.

     

    Further, there is comparison of Prabhupada with Hitler as

    the reason is given is that amassing a following is no

    big deal. The fellow I gather never tried to collect a

    following, so it was very easy for him to say such a thing

    is easy. How Hitler would have fared had he tried to

    further Gauraanga Mahaaprabhu's agenda, that even a child

    can say. Having a following is no great thing, but having

    a following for the most secret of the secret knowledge

    is another. Where Hitler's goal can be easily envisoned in

    the follower's mind, Gauraanga's goal is uncovered in the

    heart only with divine potency (yoga maayaa samaavrtaah).

     

    The shaastra gives the characteristics of a bhaagavat who

    has attained bhaava bhakti. One of them being he never

    wastes time. Prabhupada did not even sleep properly in

    the night only to complete his translations and purports.

    Without consulting shaastra how can one dismiss someone as

    a bhaagavat or not. It is easy for an intelligent person to

    act like a fool, but it is impossible for a fool to

    act like an intelligent person.

     

    There is great danger falling in bhakti like this. History

    is full of people who have taken more than one Guru and

    many a times it is definitely needed, however anybody who

    says demeaning things for Prabhupada is to be immediately

    rejected as rascal -- bogus. To accept such persons as Guru

    is to get a free ticket in the express train to hell. Here

    people are trying to be a blade of grass to be stepped on

    by Prabhupada, why because he used all his strength to pull

    us out of naraka, and give the highest goal of life. And

    imagine how Krishna will feel when He hears such things

    about Prabhupada. I bet He will personally take pleasure in

    kicking such persons out with His left foot.

     

    Your servant,

    Kishalaya


  22. To add the reason why I posted the above is that I am going

    through a "raganuga" bhakta's web site which is decrying

    Prabhupada and BhaktiSiddhanta. Of course the fellow is

    intelligent that he has already replied to the above

    objection.

     

    However what he says is that the imperfections amount to

    siddhanta and not just grammatical - in the works of

    Bhaktivedanta. He just forgot that the siddhanta needed for

    glorification of the Lord is present in a five year old

    also. Of course the fellow does not even spare Prabhupada

    faults of prosody

     

    It is because of these so called raganuga bhaktas who

    considered Prabhupada "a good old fellow who did some good

    work by builing some temples" that I shoved Krishna

    consciousness under the carpet. Of course, my fault also.

    It is only after so long a time, it was only Prabhupada

    vaani that made my heart beat for Krishna.

     

    Yours with due respect,

    Kishalaya

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