SishirSaha

Room Conversation

Los Angeles, June 26, 1975

Prabhupada: So you have given up the Vaisnava-sadacara for business selling. So you can be dangerous for that.

Jamadagni: But we have also maintained the Vaisnava-sadacara. They didn't tell us...

Prabhupada: That's all right. You do that. But they do not see whether you are maintaining.

Jamadagni: But at the same time, when we were maintaining that, we had the same problems, is that, when we presented sociological applications of the philosophy, for instance, to arrange marriages in a reasonable way, that the women not be sent out on sankirtana to prostitute themselves to sell books, but be trained up to be wives, or that the brahmacaris in the temple, someone would sit and talk with them and see how many of them want to be married and try and arrange some type of training for them, knowing that most of them are going to become married, rather than just have no training and one day find oneself married, out on the street with no occupation or training.

Prabhupada: First of all, you are not trained up. You are sometimes becoming astrologer, sometimes this, sometimes that.

Jamadagni: It's true, because of my birth in this...

Prabhupada: So how they can follow you?

Kanupriya: We're not asking them to follow us. We're asking you Prabhupada, that these are some problems.

Prabhupada: My request is that first of all you adopt yourself the Vaisnava acara. Then you try to teach others. Otherwise you have no right.

Kanupriya: But we have done that for five years, and no one here listened to us at all.

Prabhupada: So why you are anxious to listen... You... Let them not listen. You do your own duty.

Kanupriya: We had no duty. They gave us nothing to do. They would not recognize our qualities, as we understand, even of, say Krsna consciousness.

Prabhupada: So what can I do?

Kanupriya: Well, you can make statements on certain of these things so that when they hear them, their ignorance will be dispelled.

Prabhupada: Then we have to hear both of you. We have to hear both you... There will be regular court, and we shall see.

Jamadagni: Not court, simply...

Prabhupada: No, no.

Kanupriya: That would be fine.

Jamadagni: Okay.

Prabhupada: Before me. You are saying something. They may say something else. So brothers together, we sit down together, and bring this...

Kanupriya: All right. But we have some, also, questions that don't require that. These are philosophical questions. For instance, in Krsna Book there is a statement that King Ugrasena had four billion personal servants. Now you have asked that we go and spread Krsna consciousness to the scientific community.

Prabhupada: So everyone is servant. What is the question of four billion? Krsna's servant...

Kanupriya: No, Ugrasena, King Ugrasena, that when he was on the planet, he had four billion personal servants.

Prabhupada: That's all right. He is always the master. He... The Krsna is the only master.

Kanupriya: Not Krsna. No. King Ugrasena, Prabhupada. Not Krsna. King Ugrasena. The statement is that King Ugrasena had four billion personal servants. Now, we have gone and tried to spread to the scientific community. And if we say to them, "There was a king whose name was Ugrasena. He had four billion personal servants," they laugh and say, "What did they do for toilets? What did they do for food? Where did they live?"

Prabhupada: So you want to preach this particular portion and no other portion?

Jamadagni: No. We want to... We want to know if the story has an allegorical meaning rather than a literal translation, or that King Ugrasena who was a man who lived five thousand years ago and had four billion bodyguards, or whether the stories within the Bhagavatam, apart from some of them being actual, are allegorical stories. Such as the story of Krsna and Balarama chopping off the the eighty-eight...

Prabhupada: All right. You can give up that portion. You can take other portion.

Kanupriya: We don't mean to give it up.

Jamadagni: We don't mean to give it up.

Kanupriya: We're saying how can we say to them...

Prabhupada: Anyone, anyone... Why you are going to preach that portion to a professor?

Jamadagni: No. When they read your books, they pose that question to us.

Kanupriya: They read it. They say to us.

Jamadagni: And unless we can answer that question...

Prabhupada: They ask to only you, but they never ask to us.

Revatinandana: They have. Sometimes they ask me.

Prabhupada: That's all right. Let them ask. But you can tell away that(?) but you don't repeat this thing. You can give up that portion. You read other portion.

Jamadagni: But then because so many things they have to accept on faith without knowing, it then weakens their faith as to what they should accept and why should they accept Krsna, who they can't see any more than King Ugrasena's four billion bodyguards.

Prabhupada: Don't accept. Don't accept.

Kanupriya: But we want them to accept. The point is, if we say to a scientific man, "There was four billion," and if our statement is wrong...

/Prabhupada: But our position is that if some portion we cannot understand, it is our incapability.

Kanupriya: That is all right. But since we are...

Prabhupada: That's all. Unless we have got this faith we cannot use these Puranas. In the Puranas there are many such statements.

Kanupriya: Yes, but we just want to understand.

Prabhupada: Therefore many people, they do not accept Puranas. So what can be done?

Kanupriya: We're just trying to understand it because we've never dealt with Puranas before. We have been your disciples. But when we present this to the scientific community, because you have said that if one word is wrong, the whole philosophy is wrong, so they will say to us...

Prabhupada: So let them take it and throw out, don't read it. That's all.

Kanupriya: But then they discredit the Bhagavad-gita. We don't like that when they discredit the Bhagavad-gita.

Prabhupada: Why? They don't believe. What is the use?

Kanupriya: Well, because we also want to know how did they have four billion personal servants just so that we'll be able to convince them and also...

Prabhupada: If a king has four billion servants, so it is not very astonishing. Why do you think that a king shall have only four servants?

Kanupriya: Well, there's only two billion people on the planet right now.

Prabhupada: That's all right.

Kanupriya: So where did they all go?

Prabhupada: I say you don't believe, you don't take it. Why you are insisting on that point? If you don't believe, you don't take it. If you don't believe the whole book or the whole society, then who forbids you?

Kanupriya: We were hoping that there are some things which can be improved, because they have not been set up by you.

Prabhupada: No. You cannot improve. Whatever we are, we are.

Kanupriya: Why can we not improve it?

Prabhupada: No. There is no possibility.

Kanupriya: Then what is the use of action?

Prabhupada: Action, whatever action we can do by chanting Hare Krsna, that's all.

Kanupriya: But we also have to make varnasrama society or farms or businesses.

Prabhupada: That, when we shall do, we shall see to it.

Kanupriya: But we are doing it. We are.

Jamadagni: We are doing it now, and that's the question...

Prabhupada: So do it in your own way.

Kanupriya: We don't want to. We want to do everything Krsna's way.

Prabhupada: Stop it. Stop it. I say stop it. You have come to me for my advice. I say you stop it.

Kanupriya: Then, we say, what should we do?

Prabhupada: You should do your business. That's all. Earn money and enjoy.

Kanupriya: No, I mean what should we do Krsna consciously?

Prabhupada: You give up Krsna consciousness, I say. That is my advice.

Kanupriya: Why should we do that?

Prabhupada: Then that I cannot say.

Jamadagni: Isn't there a middle of the road?

Prabhupada: If you are finding so many faults, you give it up.

Jamadagni: No. We're not finding fault.

Prabhupada: Then there is no other advance, alternative. No alternative. Either you accept or reject it.

Jamadagni: We accept, but we would like some instruction on...

Prabhupada: No. I have no such knowledge to convince you.

Jamadagni: No, we accept Krsna consciousness philosophy...

Prabhupada: That's all right. Accept, or if you reject, reject.

Jamadagni: We accept.

Kanupriya: We want to apply it.

Jamadagni: We want to apply it to the world as it is now.

Prabhupada: No no. You cannot. You are not authorized.

Jamadagni: Well, who is authorized?

Prabhupada: The authorized... You are not authorized. Who is authorized, that is not your business.

Kanupriya: Then what does it mean to become disciple?

Prabhupada: Disciple, if you don't like, give it up.

Kanupriya: We do like it.

Prabhupada: You have already given up.

Kanupriya: If we didn't like it, we would not come here.

Prabhupada: No, no. You have already given up. My disciples do not keep so many hair.

Kanupriya: Many of your disciples do.

Prabhupada: No. I don't accept that. You just this one circle, little. But those who are keeping big hairs, they are rejected from my disciples.

Kanupriya: All right. That is clearing some things up.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Kanupriya: This is what we want to know.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Kanupriya: Because then that is an unequivocal statement.

Prabhupada: No. This is, that you can, that anyone who is keeping hairs and not following the rules and regulations, they are rejected from second initiation.

Kanupriya: What if they are keeping hair but they are following the rules and regulations.

Prabhupada: Then let them follow. That's a good life. But from external features he must be a Vaisnava.

Kanupriya: To get second initiation.

Jamadagni: Does that mean shaved head?

Prabhupada: Caitanya Mahaprabhu, when His students used to come without tilaka, so He refused to see his face. He refused to see his face. He said it is a crematory ground.

Kanupriya: Why is that?

Prabhupada: There is no "why." If you accept it, accept. If you don't accept, leave us, leave us. There is no "why."

Kanupriya: Then that is...

Prabhupada: You are not following strictly. You cannot ask why.

Kanupriya: We could not ask why when we were following strictly either, Prabhupada. So I'm sorry that it has to be this way.

Prabhupada: No, our thing is that we have got some principles. If anyone cannot follow, then we don't accept him.

Jamadagni: Then what do you do with the rest of the world, except for the few people who...

rabhupada: So what I can do I am doing. Therefore you have no right to ask me. What is possible by me I am doing. And those who are able to follow, they are following. That's all.

Kanupriya: But they cannot engage anyone else. How can you reach the intelligent class?

Prabhupada: So that is their business. That is not your business.

Kanupriya: We are trying to be disciples, so we considered it our business because we are sincerely trying.

Prabhupada: So why you are bothering me? You do your business.

Kanupriya: Because from you only...

Prabhupada: I do not accept you because you are keeping hairs.

Kanupriya: I did not know that.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Kanupriya: You never told me that in Hawaii.

Prabhupada: Now I say, I'll repeat that anyone who is keeping long hairs, he is no more my disciple.

Kanupriya: All right.

Prabhupada: This is the first condition.

Jamadagni: Does that apply also for householder dharma, or is that simply for brahmacari dharma? Even you... I have pictures of you on the Bhagavatam when you did not have shaved head, with a mustache when you were doing your business as a householder. So does that apply to householders, or only to brahmacaris, that a householder must also keep a shaved head or is that...?

Prabhupada: At that time I was not initiated. You were seeing my picture, mustaches, at that time I was not initiated. Since I became initiated, I have shaven.

Jamadagni: Well, in India where one can do business...

Prabhupada: I can... Why you are bringing this question? You ask, "Why you had mustaches?" I say when I had mustaches, at that time, I was not initiated. That answer is given. That's all.

Kanupriya: Can I ask one more question, Prabhupada? What I would like to understand is why it is wrong to ask why? If I can just understand this, why it is wrong for us to ask you in a submissive way. We were humbly asking you these "whys," not because we are trying to be intimidating or we were trying to rebel, but because we have sincerely tried to understand as your disciples.

Prabhupada: So you better ask my so many other disciples?

Jamadagni: They don't have any answers.

Prabhupada: Then there is no answer. I cannot attend so many things.

Kanupriya: We are not so many.

Jamadagni: But these are the same questions which we have talked over with Revatinandana Swami and Jayatirtha. A great many...

Prabhupada: If my disciples, advanced students, cannot answer, then I am sorry. I cannot answer. I cannot answer.

Kanupriya: That we did not know. That we did not know.

Prabhupada: Yes. Now you know it. I have appointed so many GBCs because to help me. It is not possible to see everyone, individual. This is not...

Jamadagni: But these are the same questions which they themselves are posing to you.

Revatinandana: I have never met any other people who asked questions on the level that they are asking questions. I cannot answer many of their questions. I have studied all your books.

Prabhupada: I cannot. If you cannot, I cannot also. Because you have been taught by me, if you cannot, then it is...

Kanupriya: We have also been taught.

Revatinandana: I have read your books, and I have heard you lecture. And so many things they are asking, I am, have no capacity to answer them. But you must have the capacity because you know Krsna. Therefore they want to ask you personally.

Jamadagni: So that is the...

Prabhupada: So far I am not so able to answer. I admit my fault.

Jamadagni: Oh, so then that is...

Prabhupada: I cannot answer.

Jamadagni: I understand. Okay? But they are saying, the general conception of you is that because you know Krsna...

Prabhupada: You can... You...

Jamadagni: (interrupting) Excuse me. Because you know Krsna, therefore you know everything about the material world and can answer all questions.

Prabhupada: So whatever I know I have explained in my books. Beyond that I have no knowledge.

Kanupriya: If that is the case, Srila Prabhupada, that does not diminish our respect for you in the least because we have always held...

Prabhupada: So what can I do? I say that whatever I have got experience, I am explaining in my books. I have explained. So it is not possible for me to answer every individual person. It is not possible.

Kanupriya: We respect that. We understand. It is just that because they are saying these things...

Prabhupada: I have got my advanced students. They can answer. If they are unable, answer, if you do not find answer from my books, then it is hopeless.

Jamadagni: Ah! But your advanced students are saying if they give an answer that because they have been appointed by you, therefore their answer is perfectly correct, because, absolutely correct on all things in the relative world because, they have been appointed by you, and because you know...

Prabhupada: You may... That's all right. If you don't believe them, you can finish business.

Kanupriya: But are they correct? That's what we want to know.

Prabhupada: Yes. They are correct.

Kanupriya: That everything they say is the absolute truth?

Prabhupada: So what can I say? But I have no time to meet everyone.

Kanupriya: Is that correct, Srila Prabhupada? I want to know very clearly that every word that anyone whom you have appointed says is completely correct on all things?

Prabhupada: Yes. If they are authorized, it is correct.

Kanupriya: If they are authorized by you to be temple president...

Prabhupada: There is no reply.

Kanupriya: Then when (name witheld) said to me that he wanted to have homosexual affair with me, I should have said, "Okay. Whatever you say." Is that correct?

Prabhupada: So how to answer these questions?

Kanupriya: That is what he said to me. And he was a sannyasa. He is sannyasa and he said to me, "I want to have sex with you." Does that mean that Krsna was saying I should have sex with him?

Jayatirtha: So you have to see whether it is according to our principles.

Kanupriya: I'm asking you on a very practical... No. That is not what he said. He didn't say that. He said absolutely, and this is...

Upendra: Then you should listen to everything he said.

Kanupriya: I am. Because if I can judge then, if I can say, "Oh, at this point he is wrong," then that is what we are talking about, Srila Prabhupada. That is the issue. If they are absolutely right all the time and they can make no error, they wield absolute power over our lives.

Prabhupada: Where is (name witheld)? Where is (he)?

Satsvarupa: He is across the street.

Prabhupada: Has he said like that?

Kanupriya: Yes. I have witnesses.

Upendra: But he's admitted his error.

Kanupriya: That's beside the point.

Revatinandana: That's all right. But that's not the point here.

Upendra: The point is that Prabhupada, that if you come before Prabhupada for your own spiritual advancement, then it doesn't matter what other people are thinking...

Kanupriya: That's not the...

Jamadagni: That's not the crux of the matter at all.

Revatinandana: The point here is not to criticize (him).

Jamadagni: No. We did not come for that at all.

Revatinandana: That wasn't the reason. The point is that anyone, (name witheld) or anybody else, he may be a sannyasi, but if he's doing all kinds of nonsense, how can we say that he has absolute authority? Because he was in charge of the place, etc., and he is also in an authoritative position, yet he breaks the principles.

Kanupriya: His personal servant, when he came... His name is (name witheld). (He) instigated a homosexual affair with him. This boy came to surrender to Krsna and surrendered to (him). But (he) told him to do that.

Upendra: But Prabhupada...

Kanupriya: Wait. I am not speaking with you. He said he did that and he did it in the name of his authority as a sannyasa. So if you say, Prabhupada, that everything that they say is absolutely true, then they will have absolute power and can do anything that they want, and anything that they say and any opinion they express is taken to be the same as yours, then it becomes implied that you agree with and condone such things, because they do them with absolute license. And we don't believe that to be true. So we think it is some kind of mistake.

Prabhupada: They say like that?

Jamadagni: Everyone says like that.

Kanupriya: They do, Prabhupada.

Satsvarupa: No, they don't. Srila Prabhupada has said these things don't apply to you. Don't worry about them because you are not following the principles.

Jamadagni: But they do say, and we are following and you don't know what we're doing, Satsvarupa, because you haven't known me for two years. So you really don't know what I'm doing. You're not around.

Satsvarupa: But our society is going nicely. It's not...

Kanupriya: In some respects it's going fine. But these are problems which can be dealt with amongst us, and they are affecting all of us. And for some people these are problems though they may not be for you. I think, as far as I know, your conduct has always been very honorable. But for some people who it's not and where these misconceptions apply, it's a real problem and we're trying to deal with it because it affects our lives.

Upendra: The strength to deal with those problems comes from following sadhanacara.

Kanupriya: We are also attempting to follow sadhanacara. And if we are imperfect...

Prabhupada: Anyway, if he has said so, that is wrong.

Jamadagni: But is that then applying to everyone. Does someone who is in the adminis... (end)

© 1991 by Bhaktivedanta Book Trust

Misinterpret to your heart's delight. It might be concluded that SBVNM is saying that Sacinandana Gaura hari takes the mood of a paramour, but he never said that. That is your speculative conclusion.

Here is what Narayana Maharaja himself said

In Navadvipa, however, there is no opulence. In Navadvipa, Sacinandana played as Krsna played with the girls in Vrndavana. While bathing in the Ganges He would say to the little girls, “Will you marry me? I want to marry you. If you will not marry Me, you will not be happy. Give your offerings of sandesa and bananas to Me." This comes in the category of the asta-kaliya-lila of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and it is therefore far superior to any lila in Jagannatha Puri.

In the mantra 'tan no gaura pracodayat', the name Visvambhara is uttered. Visvambhara never lived in the cave (Gambhira) in Jagannatha Puri, for He is Sacinandana Gaurahari in Navadvipa. From there He gives so much knowledge, so much love and affection, and a very high-class prema to the jivas. 'Visvambharaya dhimahi' means that we meditate on Him in Navadvipa.

 

In the cave of Gambira, Mahaprabhu played a role of great opulence. At that time, in the night, no one but Raya Ramananda and Svarupa Damodara (Visakha and Lalita) were able to witness His pastimes. At that time, although he was always hearing and knowing all Mahaprabhu's pastimes, even Srila Rupa Gosvami could not go there. In Godavari, Mahaprabhu manifested His form as Rasaraja-Mahabhava. This is opulence. At that time, even Ramananda Raya began to pray like Devaki or Arjuna, "O, You are that same Supreme Personality of Godhead." This is opulence.

 

In Navadvipa, however, there is no opulence. In Navadvipa, Sacinandana played as Krsna played with the girls in Vrndavana. While bathing in the Ganges He would say to the little girls, “Will you marry me? I want to marry you. If you will not marry Me, you will not be happy. Give your offerings of sandesa and bananas to Me." This comes in the category of the asta-kaliya-lila of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and it is therefore far superior to any lila in Jagannatha Puri. In Navadvipa there is svarasikhi-upasana (meditation and worship of the continual flow of unlimited lilas taking place throughout each twenty-four hour day), whereas in Puri there is mantramayi-upasana (meditation and worship of a specific lila, in this case Srimati Radhika's separation feelings for Krsna).

 

Now we're going in Godrumadvipa, which is Nandagaon, where Premadasa Babaji performed his bhajana. What is Godruma? Go-druma. The druma means a very big pipal (aswattha) tree, and 'go' refers to the Surabhi cow. After Krsna's pastimes, she brought Indra to this place and performed thousands and thousands years of austerities in order to receive the darsana of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. At last she received His darsana, when He was performing nagara-sankirtana in mahabhava. It was also in this place that Surabhi gave milk to Markendeya Rsi. So Navadvipa-dhama is not an ordinary or general place. It is the most superior place.

Narayana Maharaja gave this as the reason why Navadvipa lila is the highest. He didn't give any other reason. Did he? Answer me this! Did he give any other reason?

He gave this as the reason and then he moved on to other topics (Godrumadvipa). Narayana Maharaja didn't mention any other pastime in Navadwipa which make the Navadwipa lila the highest did he? (Narayana Maharaja might have mentioned the drama at Candrasekhara Acarya's house where Mahaprabhu took on the mood of Rukmini. Advaita, Srivas and the others all saw Sacinandana enjoying the mood of separation and madhurya-lila and they all felt joy and bliss, with no feelings of grief, at that time. But this pastime of Sacinandana -- posing as a devotee -- seems to have been forgotten by Narayana Maharaja). This pastime at the house of Candrasekhara Acarya was the main reason given by Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur for Navadwipa being the "highest place". And it is perfectly in accord with the things explained in Visvanatha's writing about the asta-kaliya-lila of Mahaprabhu.

Guest I don't know who you are but I do know that your Guru is not following the teachings given by Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur in regard to these topics which Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur gave in his Anubhasya. I will translate and post what he wrote in Anubhasya later, if I get time. Bas.

Study Sri Caitanya-asta-kaliya-lila description written by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura and you will clearly see that the only "madhurya-lila" relationship the Lord enjoys is with his wedded wife Visnupriyadevi.

Sriman-Mahaprabhor asta kaliya lila smarana mangala stotram

auspicious prayers for remembering

the eight-fold daily pastimes of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu

by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura

sri-gauranga-mahaprabhos-caranayor ya kesa-sesadibhih

sevagamyataya sva-bhakta-vihita sanyair-yaya labhyate

tam tan-manasikim smrtim prathayitum bhavyam sada sattamair

naumi pratyahikam tadiya-caritam sriman-navadvipa-jam

Devotional service to the lotus feet of Sri Gauranga Mahaprabhu is far beyond the perception of Lord Brahma, Lord Siva, Lord Sesa-naga and the rest; but it is continually indulged in by the Lord's own devotees, and it is always available to other souls as well. Now I will begin my description of the process of manasi-seva (service to the Lord executed within the mind). This process is fit for continuous remembrance by the most virtuous sages. Therefore I offer my most respectful obeisances to the eternal daily life and pastimes of the Lord born in Nabadwip.

ratryante sayanotthitah sura-sarit-snato vabhau yah prage

purvahne sva-ganair-lasaty upavane-tair-bhati madhyahnake

yah puryam-aparahnake nija-grhe sayam grhe 'thangane

srivasasya nisamukhe nisi vasan gaurah sa no raksatu

At the end of night (before sunrise), Lord Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu gets up from His bed, stretches His body, talks with His wife and washes His face; (2) in the morning, He is massaged with oil and bathes in the celestial Ganges river, then worships Lord Vishnu; (3) in the forenoon period, He enjoys discussing topics about Lord Krishna with His devotees during visits to their homes; (4) at midday, He enjoys pastimes in the gardens on the bank of the Ganges; (5) in the afternoon, He wanders about the town of Navadvipa, sporting with all the residents; (6) at dusk, he returns home to worship Lord Vishnu and perform other rituals; (7) in the evening, He goes with His associates to the courtyard of Srivasa Pandita to chant the holy names and dance in ecstasy; (8) and at night, He returns home to go to sleep. May this Lord Gaura protect us all.

ratryante pika-kukkutadi-ninadam strutva sva-talpotthitah

sri-visnu-priyaya samam rasa-katham sambhasya santosya tam

gatva 'nyatra dharasanopari vasan svad-bhih sudhautanano

yo matradi-bhir-iksito 'ti-muditas tam gauram-adhyemy-aham

At the end of the night, upon hearing the pleasant sounds made by many birds such as the cuckoos, roosters, and others, Sri Gaura arises from His bed. With His wife, Sri Vishnu Priya, He discusses many topics concerning the transcendental mellows of Their mutual loving affairs, and thus They become very pleased. Then He gets up and goes to another room, wherein He sits upon a raised sitting place and is assisted by His devotees in washing His lotus face with nicely scented water. Thereafter, He very happily visits His mother, Sri Saci Devi, as well as other friends and relatives in the home. I meditate thus on the daily pastimes of Sri Gaura-sundara.

pratah svah sariti sva-parsada-vrtah snatva prasun-adi-bhis

tam sampujya grhita-caru-vasanah srak-candan-alankrtah

krtva visnu-samarcan-adi sa-gano bhuktv-annam-acamya ca

dvitram canya-grhe sukam svapiti yas tam gauram-adhyemy-aham

In the morning, after sunrise, the Lord goes with His associates to bathe in the Ganges river. While bathing, they also worship mother Ganges by offering flowers, incense and other presentations. After this, they come onto the bank of the river, where He is dressed with exquisite cloth and decorated with fresh flower garlands, sandalwood paste and other ornaments. Then they all return to His home in order to perform opulent worship of Lord Vishnu as well as other rituals, after which they partake of the foods which were offered to Lord Vishnu. After washing His hands and mouth, Lord Gaura goes into another room to rest very happily for awhile. I meditate thus on the daily pastimes of Sri Gaura-hari.

purvahne sayanotthitah su-payasa praksalya vaktr-ambujam

bhaktaih sri-hari-nama-kirtana-paraih sarddham svayam kirtayan

bhaktanam bhavane 'pi ca sva-bhavane kridan-nrnam vardhayaty-

anandam pura-vasinam ya urudha tam gauram-adhyemy-aham

Upon the arrival of the forenoon period the Lord gets up from His nap and stretches His body. Then he washes His lotus face with sweetly scented water. Meeting with His devotees who are all very fond of chanting Sri Hari-nama-kirtana, He personally tastes and relishes the chanting of the holy names. Thus He sports, sometimes in the homes of various devotees and sometimes in His own home. It this way He increases the ecstatic pleasure of all the people of Nabadwip to limitless heights. I meditate thus on the daily pastimes of Sri Gaura-chandra.

madhyahne saha taih sva-parsada-ganaih samkirtayad-bhir-bhrsam

sadvaitendu-gadadharah kila saha-srilavadhuta-prabhuh

arame mrdu-marutaih sisiritair-bhrnga-dvijair-nadite

svam vrnda-vipinam smaran bhrahmati yas tam gauram-adhyemy-aham

During the midday period, Lord Chaitanya continues to enjoy the performance of intensely enthusiastic chanting and dancing, surrounded by His own dear devotees such as the moon-like Advaita Acarya, Gadadhara Pandita, and the divine madman Srila Nityananda Prabhu. Afterwards, they all wander throughout the gardens and groves on the bank of the Ganges, where they enjoy the sweet cooling breezes from the river. Hearing the pleasant sounds of the bumblebees in those gardens, the Lord remembers His own ecstatic pastimes of Radha and Krishna as they are occurring simultaneously in His own forest of Vrndavana. I meditate thus on the daily pastimes of Sri Gauranga.

yah sriman-aparahnake saha-ganais tais-tadrsaih premavams-

ta-drksu svayam apyalam tri-jagatam sarmani vistarayan

aramattata eti paura-janata-caksus-cakorodupo

matra dvari-mudeksito nija-grham tam gauram-adhyemy-aham

During the splendidly beautiful afternoon period, the Lord and His devotees become equally maddened in ecstatic love, and being ornamented like this, they expand every-increasing ripples of auspicious benefit for all the three worlds. In this mood, they leave the gardens and travel back toward His home. On the way, they satisfy the eyes of all the townspeople, just as the moon satisfies the cakora bird with its moonbeams. Reaching home, the Lord is lavished with loving attentions by His mother. I thus meditate on the daily pastimes of Gaura.

yas-tri-srotasi sayam-apta-nivahaih snatva pradipali-bhih

puspadyais ca samarcitah kalita-sat-pattambarah srag-dharah

visnos-tat-samay-arcanam ca krtavan dipali-bhis taih samam

bhuktv-annani su-vitikam api tatha tam gauram-adhyemy-aham

At dusk, the Lord bathes with His dear friends in the river Ganges, who flows in three parts. They devoutly worship the Ganges by offering ghee lamps, flowers, and other articles. Afterwards, the Lord puts on fresh silken clothes and is adorned with flower garlands and other decorations. Then, He worships Lord Vishnu by performing the evening arati ceremony, offering ghee lamps and other articles. Afterwards, He and His friends partake of the foodstuffs and betel nuts that were offered to Lord Vishnu. I thus meditate on the daily pastimes of Lord Gaurasundara.

yah srivasa-grhe pradosa-samaye hy-advaita-candradi-bhih

sarvair-bhakta-ganaih samam hari-katha-piyusam-asvadayan

premananda-samakulas-catula-dhih samkirtane-lampatah

kartum kirtanam-urdhvam-udyama-paras tam gauram-adhyemy-aham

In the evening time, the Lord goes to the home of Srivasa Pandita, accompanied by Srila Advaita-chandra and other dear associates. Meeting with the multitude of devotees, He tastes and relishes the nectar of topics concerning Lord Hari and His mind becomes most agitated with the ecstasies of pure love of Godhead. Then, becoming very eager to relish the congregational chanting of the holy names of the Lord, He orchestrates the performance of intensely jubilant sankirtana which attains the summit of passionate glorification of the holy names. I thus meditate on the daily pastimes of Sri Gaura-sundara.

srivas-angana avrto nija-ganaih sarddham prabhu-bhyam natann-

uccais-tala-mrdanga-vadana-parair gayad-bhir-ullasayan

bhramyan srila-gadadharena sahito naktam vibhaty-adbhutam

svagare sayanalaye svapiti yas tam gauram-adhyemy-aham

Continuing well into the night, the Lord dances and dances in the courtyard of Srivasa, surrounded by His most intimate devotees. His most ecstatic singing is accompanied by His devotees who are expert in playing rhythms loudly on the mridanga drums. He wanders and dances with Sri Gadadhara Prabhu in the most astonishing way, througout the night, until just before dawn. Then He returns to His own home, where He retires to His bedchamber and falls asleep with His beutiful consort. I thus meditate on the daily pastimes of Sri Gaura-nataraja.

sri-gauranga-vidhoh sva-dhamani navadvipe 'sta-kalodbhavam

bhavyam bhavya-janena gokula-vidhor-lila-smrter-aditah

lilam dyotayad-etad-atra dasakam prityanvito yah pathet

tam prinati sadaiva yah karunaya tam gauram-adhyemy-aham

Sri Gauranga, the Moon over Navadvipa, is manifest in His own abode during eight periods of each day and every day. His pastimes should be remembered by meditative devotees before they remember the pastimes of Sri Krishna, the Moon over Gokula. If someone lovingly reads or recites the Lord's eternal daily pastimes as they are illuminated in the ten verses of this prayer, then the Lord is immensely pleased with that person, by His own merciful compassion. I thus meditate on the daily pastimes of Sri Gaurachandra.

from "The Superiority of Navadvipa Dhama" by Narayana Maharaja

Narayana Maharaja said

In Navadvipa, Sacinandana played as Krsna played with the girls in Vrndavana. While bathing in the Ganges He would say to the little girls, “Will you marry me? I want to marry you. If you will not marry Me, you will not be happy. Give your offerings of sandesa and bananas to Me." This comes in the category of the asta-kaliya-lila of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and it is therefore far superior to any lila in Jagannatha Puri. In Navadvipa there is svarasikhi-upasana (meditation and worship of the continual flow of unlimited lilas taking place throughout each twenty-four hour day), whereas in Puri there is mantramayi-upasana (meditation and worship of a specific lila, in this case Srimati Radhika's separation feelings for Krsna).

His sahajiya credentials are getting more impressive day by day.

Srila Vrndavana Dasa Thakura writes in Caitanya-bhagavata as follows:

ei mata capalya karena saba sane

sabe strimatra na dekhena drstikane

stri 'hena na prabhu ei avatare

sravane o na karila-vidita samsare

ataeva sata yata maha mahima sakale

'gauranga-nagara' hena stava nahi bale

"The Lord was apt to indulge in indiscriminate, merciful behavior towards all, except that he never looked at a woman, even by a sidelong glance. It is known to all the world that He did not even allow the name of a woman to enter His ear. Those who are His real devotees, therefore, never address Sri Gauranga as 'Gauranga-nagari' or the enjoyer of women. Although all forms of praise are applicable to the Lord, the wise only sing that which is in accordance with His nature." (Caitanya-bhagavata 15.28-31)

What part of vipralambha to increase the rasa of sambhoga escapes your mental quantum Shishira?

 

You will not help your spiritual advancement by trying to discredit Vaisnavas who are only your eternal well wishers. What a shame you cannot appreciate Krsna's lila and only seem to use the internet to be like a fly to the sore instead of the bee to the nectar.

I choose to reject him and I am free to give my reasons why (I have many reasons).

You can give up Jagannatha, no harm. You can give up other incarnations, but what to do about Caitanya Mahaprabhu? What should we do? If you are serving Caitanya Mahaprabhu as well as Radha-Krishna conjugal, then it will be not one-pointed. Then what should we do? Then it will not be ananya. We should try to follow ananya. One-pointed. Not so many [ista-devas]. Otherwise how can you concentrate?

http://www.purebhakti.com/lectures/lecture20000120bpm.shtml

1. It is established that separation has a higher degree of emotional intensity.

 

2. It is established that meeting is what Radha and Krishna strive for in the lila; they do not seek to be separated, in fact they are dead against it.

 

3. Though separation is the more intense of the two and hence "higher", it does not necessarily mean that separation should be cultivated.

I want to serve Srimati Radhika and be very happy to control Krsna. I want that She will order me, "Be at the door of the kunja and don't let Krsna come in." These pastimes are in my heart.

Guest the quotes you already gave of your so called guru are telling us clearly "don't believe the direct meaning of the things the previous Acaryas said; believe me instead". You choose to follow him. Other devotees don't want to.

You choose to disregard the instructions of the authentic acaryas and to blindly follow this offensive person. But I don't think you have a right to preach his philosophy to other devotees. Krsna wants devotees to understand the scripture "as it is". You are following a different philosophy, like the mayavadis who don't accept the scripture "as it is" but instead twist words to distort the self evident meaning of the scriptures. That's your choice - if you want to think in that way nobody can stop you. But don't preach that.

tathapi sambhoga-sukhad api stutah

so ko py' anirvacya-tamo mano-ramah

promoda-rasih parinamato dhruvam

tatra sphuret tad-rasikaika-vedyah

 

The anguish of separation (viraha bhava) is praised as greater than the happiness of sambhoga (meeting, union). Separation is so pleasing to the mind (mano-ramah) that it cannot be described (anirvacya-tamah). It always transforms into an abundance of ecstatic joy (promoda-rasih). Only actual rasiks know that separation is higher than union (rasika vedyah). (Brhad Bhagavatamrta 1.7.126)

February 2, 1968:

Our, this Gaudiya-sampradaya, Caitanya Mahaprabhu's, in Caitanya Mahaprabhu's descendants, our line of God realization is that separation, feeling of separation. Not that we have got Krsna within our hand. No. The feeling of separation, worship of Krsna by feeling of separation is better than the worship by directly meeting. Vipralambha-seva.

"Lord Caitanya taught people in general the method of vipralambha-seva, which is the method of rendering service unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the feeling of separation. The six Gosvamis also taught worship of Krsna in the feeling of the gopis in separation. The prayers of Srinivasacarya about the Gosvamis explain these matters very clearly." (Krsna Book, Chapter 47)

 

"Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu taught us this method of worship in separation, vipralambha-seva. Not that "Oh, I have seen yesterday. Last night, I have seen Krsna. He was snatching my cloth." These are sahajiyas. Actually, our worship should be in separation. The Gosvamis also taught us like that." (Prabhupada's Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture: SB1.10.14)

 

"So for advanced devotee everything is possible, as described by this gentleman. But that is not for everyone. That is not a common thing. Exceptional. For the common person, as Caitanya Mahaprabhu has advised and as He has practically shown in His life, that is devotional service in separation: "Where is Krsna?" Sunyayitam jagat sarvam govinda-virahena me. "I am seeing everything vacant because I cannot see Krsna." The same thing was followed by the Gosvamis." (Prabhupada's lecture of Canto Five Srimad-Bhagavatam)

 

"Our, this Gaudiya-sampradaya, Caitanya Mahaprabhu's, in Caitanya Mahaprabhu's descendants, our line of God realization is that separation, feeling of separation. Not that we have got Krsna within our hand. No. The feeling of separation, worship of Krsna by feeling of separation is better than the worship by directly meeting. Vipralambha-seva." (Prabhupada's lecture of Feb.2,1968)

 

"Direct contact is not possible. Neither that is the way of worshiping by the method of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. That is sahajiya-vada. "I am talking with Krsna. Krsna is snatching my cloth." There is a book, one lady has written,her experience that Krsna comes, He talks with her and snatches her cloth. She has written openly. But this is not Caitanya Mahaprabhu's way…

 

"Real Caitanya Mahaprabhu sampradaya is that he should be feeling like Caitanya Mahaprabhu, separation. Not sambhoga. Vipralambha. Vipralambha-seva: "Oh, I am so wretched, I could not serve Krsna. How I can see Krsna? It is not possible." In this way. That is the teaching of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. "But even though I do not see Him, neither it is possible for me to see Him..." This means: "What I am? I am insignificant person. Why should Krsna come and seeme?" This is right. "Why shall I aspire after seeing Krsna? What qualification Ihave got?" This is bhajana. This is bhajana. Why should I be proud that "Now I shall see Krsna"? What I am? That is the teaching of Caitanya Mahaprabhu…Krsna may not come. I may not see Krsna for thousands and thousands of lives. I may rot in the hellish condition of life for many, many births. That doesn't matter. Still, I cannot give up Krsna consciousness." This is required. I may be sent to hell, heaven; it doesn't matter. What qualification I have got that I want to seeback to home, back to Godhead? It is not so easy thing." (Mayapura: June 27, 1973)]

Some persons say that vipralambha is higher than sambhoga. Only a neutral person can say this. Such neutral persons alone can say that it is good if the gopis only see Krsna in their trance. Such persons can say that although the gopis want to embrace Krsna, it is better if Krsna's association comes to them by their mood of separation. It is better that they always meeting Him in their mood of separation, as they close their eyes and remember Him in their hearts. Such neutral persons think that the gopis' separation is very good, and such persons are like Akrura and Kamsa, who have no desire for the meeting of Radha and Krsna. Akrura can say, "Take Krsna from Vraja. Let the Vrajavasis feel separation; they should be always feeling separation." And Kamsa will be very happy to say, "Bring Krsna here to Mathura, and I will kill Him there."

These neutral persons he refers to - Sanatana Goswami and others - he compares them to Akrura and Kamsa. Narayana Maharaja is being offensive when he criticizes and mocks Sanatana Goswami and the other acaryas in this way.

So please confirm if you can send samples and quote.

Prabhu are you sure of that statistic. Less than 10%?

Beggar asked me if I have met Sudhir Goswami and Govinda Maharja. Then beggar deleted his message. I don't know why.

Beggar I have visited their temple. Early one morning I came from Mayapura with one of my friends and we visited their temple for a whole day. We rode to there on our bicycles after visiting the temple of Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Maharaja in Nabadwip. I didn't get into trouble for that because my Gurudeva said we should go there and see their temple. I talked with the old brahmacaris and a sanyasi there. I listened to a class by an old brahmacari called Haricharan das. He ws reading from Caitanya Bhagavata. We talked with him for a long time after the class. He took us to meet a sanyasi called acharya maharaja from Bangladesh (my family are from Bangladesh). He was a very nice devotee. I never met govinda Maharaja. Maybe I will one day. They are not against ISKCON. When I asked Haricharan about Narayana Maharaja he said "Narayana Maharaja is a disciple of Kesava Maharaja. Kesava Maharaja is a sanyasa-sisya of Guru Maharaja (Sridhar). We are all following Guru Maharaja directly here at this Math".

According to Bhaktivinoda Thakur in his book Sri Krsna Samhita those trees Nalakuvara and Manigriva symbolize the stage of devotion when a devotee is infected with the anartha of lustful sex desire. To get free of this anartha they were born as trees so they could follow some regulation of their behaviour and not do lusty things.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura wrote many things in Prakrtarasasatadushani telling not to speak of lila-katha to neophytes who are infected with the anarthas of Nalakuvara and Manigriva. Neophytes who have not reached anartha-nivritti should not listen to the rasa-lila and other higher pastimes of Radha-Govinda.

Bhaktivinoda Thakur has described many beautiful pastimes of Radha-Krsna we can meditate on. Pastimes which are appropriate for neophytes. But neophytes shouldn't meditate on rasa-lila.

jasomati-ajna pe'ye dhanistha-anito

sri-krsna-prasada radha bhunje ho'ye prito

lalitadi sakhi-gana avasesa paya

mane mane sukhe radha-krsna-guna gaya

What does it matter to me what Sridhara Swami says? I don't follow any of those Gaudiya Math swamis. I have read most of the books of Sridhara Svami in English and I read many of other books published from Gaudiya Matha. Even I have many books I bought at the Bagh Bazaar temple of Gaudiya Mission when I visited Kolkata last year because they are printing the books of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur which I wanted to read in the original Bengali. But I am most definitely not a follower of Gaudiya Math and I never will be.

anartha na gele sisye jata-rati bole na

anartha-visistha sisye rasa-tattva bole na

Translation:

Without the removal of anarthas, attachment (rati) cannot blossom in the disciple. So a disciple infested with anartha is never instructed in rasa-tattva.

Verse 59 of Prakrta Rasa Shatadushani, by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura.

gHari Prabhu, Can you tell me where you found this. Is it in the vedabase?

Lord Sri Krsna's rasa-lila pastimes are the crest-jewel of all His pastimes, and the benefits of cultivating such pastimes are the crest jewel of all benefits. Therefore those who are qualified to relish these topics will be the crest jewels among all devotees. The Lord's rasa-lila should never be studied in any way by those who are seized by the disease of the heart, who are lusty for personal gratification, or otherwise unfit. In matters of ordinary education, if one wants to dispel one's ignorance it is necessary to gradually master the highest knowledge of the university; but a beginning student or someone of little knowledge is never admitted prematurely into the highest class. Similarly, it is never appropriate to give instructions about the most elevated topic, the rasa-lila, to persons of little knowledge who are simply attached to the external bodily senses."

(Srila B. P. Kesava Maharaja, Sri Damodarastakam-tika, Verse 8)

This and over a hundred more lengthy quotes by previous Acaryas saying the same thing - neophytes should never study Ujjvala-Nilamani similar books - are presented together in this article by Sripad Visnu Maharaj.

Jagat I saw your comments directed to me. I've been reading this discussion carefully. But I don't feel I should make any comments myself at this time.

jadi boli, "eta amar gaurava" tahale uddeshya holo "e vastu amar garver vishay." kintu ami jadi apanake gauraver sahit seva kori, eta ki amar ahankar pramanita korche? Sambhrama evam gaurava paryaya shabda. Ek sathe bola hoy jemon banglay "seva-paricarya" ity adi pray suna jay.

 

tikakar "gaurava-caryadakshinya-seva" bole vyakhya kore. dakhinyer artha to bujhen nischay.

 

Jai hok, apni bheve dekhun. Ek din bujhben je amar vyakhya thik. Jai Radhe! Jak ekhane rakhlam, baba.

sambrahma-gaurava is not plain gaurava, it is something else. Another valid meaning of gaurava is pratistha, by the way. In other words, ego.

Take a look at the way Srila Prabhupada translated this word gaurava and how it is used in CC.

http://www.caitanyacaritamrta.com/g/gaurava

The primary meaning of the word gaurava is pride, no matter what Madhava Maharaja or that other bengali speaking person writing on this thread may want you to believe.

Srila Sridhar Maharaja said that, "as denotation increases connotation decreases and as connotation increases denotation increases". I've noticed that Srila Sridhar Maharaja often gives the secondary or connotative meaning of a shloka. This certainly doesn't mean that he's in error but rather the connotation of the shloka is either deeper and more congruous with the higher siddhanta than the denotative meaning. Generally Srila Sridhar Maharaja seems to using a connotative meaning of "pujala raga patha" verse as a warning to keep the neophytes from jumping artificially to a higher position. Srila Sridhar Maharaja assumes that the hearer of the connotative meaning is experienced enough to know the literal or denotative meaning. It seems to me that this is where all the confusion comes about. The "pujala raga patha" verse has different meanings on different levels so how could Jagat be entirely wrong despite his renegade pedigree? But despite Sripad B. Sudhir Goswami's proper Saraswat credentials he and his fellow travelers are convinced that the secondary meaning of "pujala raga patha" is the only way, the truth and the light. In some ways the present day Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math is similiar to present day ISKCON in that both of their prominent acaraya's has entered their nitya lila. It seems to me that B. Sudhir Goswami and his like minded compatriots are bitter that the other Gaudiya Maths and ISKCON do not accept Sridhar Maharaja as the most prominent disciple of Srila Saraswati Thakur. They may also view Srila Sridhar Maharaja as the only real Rupanuga of his generation but by expousing these disassembling concepts and by making aparadhic propaganda campaigns against others they are merely ushering in a dark age and causing Srila Sridhar Maharaja's good name to be draged through the mud.

Why are you translating gaurava bhange like that. This is not what gaurava bhange means. Do you really know Bangla are are you reading from some book?

matala harijana kirtana range

pujala raga-patha gaurava bhange

Speak about the Harijans (devotees of Hari), enjoy the kirtana.

Worship the raga-patha (the path of raganuga bhakti), giving up all sense of pride.

I translated it as "Worship the path of raganuga bhakti"

This means, do puja (pujala) and worship the exalted path of raganuga bhakti.

In other words, engage in vaidhi bhakti and show reverence to the path of raganuga bhakti.

Raga do you have those quotes you mentioned?