Yogkriya

At last a wonderful description of Lord Shiva's real position as teh lord of the universe!! So true! Krishna became a Maha Pashupata after receiving diksha from Divya Guru Upmanyu. Krishna himself states this ellaborately to Yudhishthira, Arjuna, Pitamah Bhishma and other sages in the Anishasana Parva of Mahabharata.

Jai Shri Krishna!!

You are remebering wrong about the residence of Lord. Shivaloka is the Paratparadhama. Near to Shivaloka is Goloka, were reside the holy cows of Lord Shiva. Shri Krishna, a manifestation of Shri Vishnu, Who is a partial manifestation of Sadashiva is the Predominant Deity. In fact, Shri Krishna is a big Pashupata who received diksha from Divyaguru Shri Upamanyu and He love to take care the Cows of The Lord.

 

Any way, I am only trying to explain this, but I will not involve in this discussion

NICE WORDS.

DID ANY OF THE SICK GBCs USED A DOCTOR'S HELP FOR THEIR AILMENTS?

OR THEY WENT TO READ BOOKS INSTEAD AND GOT CURED?

DO YOU WALK THE TALK? EH..?

Regarding your proposal to become a doctor, because your mother wants to

prosecute your education, I think if you can learn Krishna Consciousness

perfectly, by reading our different literatures, and books, you will be a

better doctor than the ordinary physician. The ordinary physician may cure

the disease of the body, but if you become advanced in Krishna

Consciousness, you will be able to cure the disease of the soul for many

many persons. And that is more important than a doctor or medical

practitioner for curing the disease of this body. However we may be expert

for keeping this body fit, it is sure and certain that this will end. But if

you can protect the soul from being fallen a victim of this material

existence that is a greater service. In some of the Vedic literatures, it is

said that Atmanan Sarvato Rakshet, that means one should give first

protection to the soul. Then he should take care of his particular type of

faith, then he should take care of the material things, namely this body,

and anything in relation with this body, or wealth. Please try to read all

our books very carefully, and whenever there is any doubt, you ask me, and

be expert preacher. That will make you a great doctor for protecting the

human society from being fallen a victim to maya.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Tosana Krsna -- Seattle 7 October, 1968

YES AND I SUPPOSE ALL THESE MEDIA REPORTS ARE REPORTING WITH GREAT HUE AND CRY THAT KAZAKH "HINDUS" ARE SUFFERING!!!

THE HINDUISM CRITICIZING AND HINDU GODS CALLING "DEMI-GODS" HARE KRISHNAS SUDDENLY BECOME HINDUS IN DANGER.

LOL! LOW DOUBLE STANDARDS OF GBCs around the workd continue.

Hari Bol.... ugh .... horrible!

Human_rights_in_Kazakhstan#Religious_freedom

 

.............................................................................

 

>From Kazakhstan Media reports have been given on the following:

 

1. Radio Liberty

2. BBC (plus there will full report done this weekend)

3. Reuters

4. Al-Jazeera will come on Monday then there will be report

5. On Sunday Max will give interview to Azatyk radio, Radio Liberty in

Kaz. From them it may go to Radio Liberty Europe.

 

News papers:

 

Grishin's article was published in following news papers and sites:

 

Republic news paper, most popular opposition newspaper.

Free Asia news paper

Navigator (most readable internet news paper)

News RU internet news paper

Zovtis Bureau site

 

TV reports:

 

31 Channel - good

Astana TV RU - good

Astana TV Kaz - bad

What is this heightened HHINDU" devotee case in Kazakhstan about???

Why are the Hare Krishnas misadvertising themselves as HINDUS???

But they become oppposing and critisizing Hindus when out of danger?

Now they have become Hindus??? When is this worldwide iskcon hypocrasy going to end???

At the time of the government commission dealing with the "land issues

regarding the Society for Krishna Consciousness," the Karasai District

administration announced a withdrawal of 5 cases against the local Hindu

devotees.

 

On the afternoon of November 26, 2006, the Hindus were informed that the

5 cases had been reopened by the District Administration, and, the court

has been appointed the hearings for Monday November 27, 2006 at 1500 local

time.

 

Since the time of the commission, the Hindu's lawyers, who worked on the

case for the past 2 years, have been reluctant to continue thier work. In

the wake of the bulldozing they have refused to work due to fear of reprisal

from the government.

 

On Friday November 24, 2006 a motion was raised in the Parliament of India

that the issue regarding the persecution of Hindu devotees in Kazakhstan be

discussed.

 

On Monday November 27, 2006 Vijay Malhotra, deputy leader of the opposition

is bringing the topic to discussion in the lower house pf Parliament, and,

Sushma Swaraj, a member of the higher house is raising the issue in the Raj

Sabha.

 

The issue was reported to Asma Jehangir, UN Special Rapporteur on Freedom

of Religion or Belief of the Commission on Human Rights, at a meeting

commemorating the signing of the 1981 United Nations Declaration on the

Elimination of Intolerance and Discrimination Based on Religion or Belief,

in Prague, Czech Republic.

Only Krsna can tell actual time for death and also the pleace where the soul goes. Except Krsna nobody can tell it correctly.

umm... what a speculation. Of course Krishna can tell. But who is going to ask him ?? :/

And that is why there are the Vedic ancient sciences of Astrology etc...

Don't believe in them? Your problem.

I just came from a local ISKCON temple, the Pujari that did the last artik ,

did not have kunti mala , or tilaka or Brahmin tread, same temple serves

grains on Gaura Purnima night

\and Janmastami nights.........(everything else was great )....sometimes you

wonder if the local GBC cares, I forgot he hardly comes there.Maybe the

gentleman paid his way to get on the alter without being initiated???

Yes maybe he paid his way to the altar. There is also a lot of other things that the GBC themselves do not follow - like the Vedic norm of starting any puja with Ganapati smaran. This 100% Vedic. By the way, the beads round the neck are called "Kanthi Mala" and not Kunti mala. Kunti was the Queen - mother of pandavas. - Hari Bol!

Small branch but with a big voice.

 

It is the loudest person who gets the more attention, not the biggest person with a small voice. In the end, it is how you deliver which counts, not what you deliver - basic for all presentation and public talkings.

 

ISCKON maybe small and insignificant to someone to the point that you could consider that their influence is sufficial as well. But when the West hears them, what they will see is what Hindusm supposed to be according to their own understanding.

I think still quality is still more important than quantity. What's the use of having crowd of sheeps? Jesus didn't have a corwd of disciples. But there was quality. One Pure devotee can have so much impact than a thousand ones shouting.

Hari bol!

Hari bol Maharaj!

Yes actually, Vivekananda was the first Indian spiritual leader to travel th wes to spread the vedantic knowledge much before Prabhupada.

I think it was almost a century before Srila Prabhupada?

Vijaya Dashami is to be celebrated as Victory of Lord Rama over Ravan (a Vasihnava festival). And of course of Shri Hanumana and his galantary and unparalleled bhakti to Lord Shri Rama and Shrimati Sita devi.

Hari Bol!

For me, friendships, even those based on bhakti-lite and socio-religious chit chat at the Sunday feast, seem like more effort than I am generally willing to expend. I guess I'm what you could call a "Nelly No-mates"!

 

I also have a feeling that we may currently all be reifiying the idea of friends, due to seeing them portrayed so much on TV and in films as the new & improved replacement for the declining nuclear family?

 

Anyway, some of my best friends are people I've never met....

How interesting. I guess in Kaliyuga, most of the values are being lost. As it progresses, the values are lost more and more. :/

Haribol

Note that you tried to clear the "Puranic" concepts with something in the sruti only to land up with the same "concepts". Why do you feel compelled to insert your own imaginations like consciousness etc.

Prabhuji! PAMHO!

Hare Krishna!

I agree with you, but if consciousness was just imagination, then why would our beloved Srila Prabhupada name the organization after krishna consciousness? Is that imagination too? After all, everything starts with consciousness. Right consciousness. Without any consciousness there no reading of the Vedas either.

I don't find Atanu Prabhu or YogKriya Prabhu wrong if they want to be in Shiva consciousness. This is also God consciousness, confirmed by the Vedic authorities and also by previous posts. And a lot has been said about Lord Shiva in the scriptures. It will definitely not be wise to stamp and stress the sin and child incident. There is indeed a lot more said and written by much more higher authorities than us in the scriptures.

As far as I can remember, Srila Prabhupada never propagated this.

I guess we are just too hard on each other. While we ourselves haven't really reached neither Krishna nor Shiva. Please spare any offenses.

And if I said something offensive, I beg your pardon.

Hari Bol!

Chant and be happy or fight and be miserable!

I know your ready answer and comment to the previous post from Anushasana Parva of Mahabharata.

"It is concocted and does not agree with the Vedas .. blah blah"

And if this does not, then What Vasudeva Krishna is saying here also does not. And then at this point the argument losses all its meaning.

Om Namah Shivaya.

SECTION XVIII of Anushasana Parva.

Krishna, addressed Yudhisthira, saying,--O son, do thou recite this hymn consisting of the thousand and eight names of Mahadeva, and let Maheswara be gratified with thee. In former days, O son, I was engaged in the practice of severe austerities on the breast of the mountains of Meru from desire of obtaining a son. It is this very hymn that was recited by me. As the reward of this, I obtained the fruition of all my wishes, O son of Pandu. Thou wilt also, by reciting this same hymn, obtain from Sarva the fruition of all thy wishes.

--After this, Kapila, the Rishi who promulgated the doctrines that go by the name of Sankhya, and who is honoured by the gods themselves, said,--I adore Bhava with great devotion for many lives together. The illustrious Deity at last became gratified with me and gave me knowledge that is capable of aiding the acquirer in getting over rebirth.--After this, the Rishi named Charusirsha, that dear friend of Sakra and known otherwise under the name of Alamvana's son and who is filled with compassion, said,--I, in former days, repaired to the mountains of Gokarna and sat myself to practise severe penances for a hundred years. As the reward of those penances, I obtained from Sarva, O son of king Pandu, a hundred sons, all of whom were born without the intervention of woman, of well-restrained soul, conversant with righteousness, possessed of great splendour, free from disease and sorrow, and endued with lives extending over a hundred thousand years.

Then the illustrious Valmiki, addressing Yudhishthira, said,--Once upon a time, in course of a dialectical disputation, certain ascetics that were possessors of the homa fire denounced me as one guilty of Brahmanicide. As soon as they had denounced me as such, the sin of Brahmanicide, O Bharata, possessed me. I then, for cleansing myself, sought the protection of the sinless Isana who is irresistible in energy. I become cleansed of all my sins. That dispeller of all sorrows, viz., the destroyer of the triple city of the Asuras, said unto me,--Thy fame shall be great in the world.

Then Jamadagni's son, that foremost of all righteous persons, shining like the Sun with blazing splendour in the midst of that conclave of Rishis, said unto the son of Kunti these words;--I was afflicted with the sin, O eldest son of Pandu, of Brahmanicide for having slain my brothers who were all learned Brahmanas. For purifying myself, I sought the protection, O king, of Mahadeva. I hymned the praises of the great Deity by reciting his names. At this, Bhava became gratified with me and gave me a battle-axe and many other celestial weapons. And he said unto me,--Thou shalt be freed from sin and thou shalt be invincible in battle; Death himself shall not succeed in overcoming thee for thou shalt be freed from disease.--Even thus did the illustrious and crested Deity of auspicious form said unto me. Through the grace of that Deity of supreme intelligence I obtained all that He had said.

Then Viswamitra said,--I was formerly a Kshatriya. I paid my adorations to Bhava with the desire of becoming a Brahmana Through the grace of that great Deity I succeeded in obtaining the high status of a Brahmana that is so difficult to obtain.--Then the Rishi Asita-Devala, addressing the royal son of Pandu, said,--In former days, O son of Kunti, through the curse of Sakra, all my merit due to the acts of righteousness I had performed, was destroyed. The puissant Mahadeva it was who kindly gave me back that merit together with great fame and a long life.--

The illustrious Rishi Gritsamada, the dear friend of Sakra, who resembled the celestial preceptor Vrihaspati himself in splendour, addressing Yudhishthira of Ajamidha's race said,--The inconceivable Sakra had, in days of yore, performed a sacrifice extending over a thousand years. While that sacrifice was going on, I was engaged by Sakra in reciting the Samans. Varishtha, the son of that Manu who sprung from the eyes of Brahma, came to that sacrifice and addressing me, said.--O foremost of regenerate persons, the Rathantara is not being recited properly by thee. O best of Brahmanas, cease to earn demerit by reading so faultily, and with the aid of thy understanding do thou read the Samans correctly. O thou of wicked understanding, why dost thou perpetrate such sin that is destructive of sacrifice.--Having said these words, the Rishi Varishtha, who was very wrathful, gave way to that passion and addressing me once more, said,--Be thou an animal divested of intelligence, subject to grief, ever filled with fear, and a denizen of trackless forests destitute of both wind and water and abandoned by other animals. Do thou thus pass ten thousand years with ten and eight hundred years in addition.....

After this, Vasudeva, that foremost of all intelligent men, once more said,--Mahadeva of golden eyes was gratified by me with my penances. Gratified with me, O Yudhishthira, the illustrious Deity said unto me,--Thou shalt, O Krishna, through my grace, become dearer to all persons than wealth which is coveted by all. Thou shalt be invincible in battle. Thy energy shall be equal to that of Fire. Thousands of other boons Mahadeva gave unto me on that occasion. In a former incarnation I adored Mahadeva on the Manimantha mountain for millions of years. Gratified with me, the illustrious Deity said unto me these words:--Blessed be thou, do thou solicit boons as thou wishest. Bowing unto him with a bend of my head, I said these words,--If the puissant Mahadeva has been gratified with me, then let my devotion to him be unchanged, O Isana! Even this is the boon that I solicit.--The great God said unto me,--Be it so--and disappeared there and then.'

Rudra Upanishad

Now, at this moment, I take refuge in that Pure State of the Supreme Absolute which can be known by the Vidya, called the Rudra Hridaya Upanishad.

After prostrating before the celebrated form of Sri Mahadeva-Rudra in his heart, adoring the sacred Bhasma and Rudraksha and mentally reciting the great Mahavakya-Mantra, Tarasara, Sri Suka asked his father Sri Vyasa Maharshi, thus:

Who is the real God of gods? In whom are all these existences established? By worshipping

whom, can I please the Devas in whole?

Hearing these words, Sri Veda Vyasa replied thus:

Rudra is the embodiment of all Devas. All devas are merely different manifestations of Sri Rudra Himself. On the right side of Rudra, there is the sun, then the four-headed Brahma, and then three Agnis (fires). On the left side, there exist Sri Umadevi, and also Vishnu and Soma (moon).

Uma Herself is the form of Vishnu. Vishnu Himself is the form of the moon.

Therefore, those who worship Lord Vishnu, worship Siva Himself. And those who worship Siva, worship Lord Vishnu in reality. Those who envy and hate Sri Rudra, are actually hating Sri Vishnu. Those who decry Lord Siva, decry Vishnu Himself.

Rudra is the generator of the seed. Vishnu is the embryo of the seed. Siva Himself is Brahma and Brahma Himself is Agni. Rudra is full of Brahma and Vishnu. The whole world is full of Agni and Soma. The masculine gender is Lord Siva. The feminine gender is Sri Bhavani Devi. All the

mobile and immobile creation of this universe, is filled up with Uma and Rudra. The Vyakta is Sri Uma, and the Avyakta is Lord Siva. The combination of Uma and Sankara is Vishnu.

Hence everybody should prostrate to Sri Maha Vishnu with great devotion. He is the Atman. He is the Paramatman. He is the Antaratman. Brahma is the Antaratman. Siva is the Paramatman. Vishnu is the Eternal Atman of all this universe. This whole creation of Svarga, Martya and Patala Lokas is a big tree. Vishnu is the top portion (branches) of this tree. Brahma is the

stem. The root is Lord Siva.

The effect is Vishnu. The action is Brahma. The cause is Siva. For the benefit of the worlds.

Rudra has taken these three forms.

Rudra is Dharma. (how can Dharma be sinful??)

Vishnu is the world. Brahma is Knowledge. Therefore, do Kirtan of His

name, ‘Rudra’, ‘Rudra’. By singing like this, the hallowed name of this great Lord, all your sins will be destroyed.

Rudra is man. Uma is woman. Prostrations to Him and Her.

Rudra is Brahma. Uma is Sarasvati. Prostrations to Him and Her.

Rudra is Vishnu. Uma is Lakshmi. Prostrations to Him and Her.

Rudra is Sun. Uma is shadow. Prostrations to Him and Her.

Rudra is moon. Uma is star. Prostrations to Him and Her.

Rudra is day. Uma is night. Prostrations to Him and Her.

Rudra is Yajna. Uma is Vedi. Prostrations to Him and Her.

Rudra is Agni, Uma is Svaha. Prostrations to Him and Her.

Rudra is Veda. Uma is Sastra. Prostrations to Him and Her.

Rudra is tree. Uma is creeper. Prostrations to Him and Her.

Rudra is scent. Uma is flower. Prostrations to Him and Her.

Rudra is meaning. Uma is word. Prostrations to Him and Her.

Rudra is Linga. Uma is Pitha. Prostrations to Him and Her.

The devotee should worship Sri Rudra and Uma with these Mantras referred to above. O my son, Suka! With these hymns, you should meditate on the Eternal Para-Brahman, which is beyond the reach of the senses, which is pure Existence, knowledge and Bliss and which cannot be

understood either by the speech or by the mind. After knowing this, there is nothing more to be known, because everything is the form of That, and there is nothing separate from That.

There are two Vidyas to be known. They are Para and Apara. Apara Vidya is the embodiment of the four Vedas and their six Angas. They do not deal with the Nature of the Atman.

But the Para Vidya is called the Moksha-Sastra. It deals with that supreme philosophy of the Absolute Truth, ununderstandable, impersonal, Nirguna, Nirakara, without ears, without eyes, without hands, without feet, eternal, omnipresent, imperishable, and knowable by the intelligent

daring sages.

You will find in the Svetasvatara Upanishad, chapter III: “There is one Rudra only who rules all the worlds by His powers. There is no one besides Him who can make Him the second. He is present inside the hearts of all beings. He creates all the worlds and maintains and finally withdraws them into Himself”.

Rudra represents here Para Brahman or the Supreme Self, the Infinite or the Absolute. Rudra, after having created all objects, draws together or takes them all back into Himself at the end of time, i.e., during cosmic Pralaya or dissolution.

Rudra is the destructive aspect of Siva. There are eleven Rudras in the cosmic hierarchy.

Esoterically, the Pranas (or the ten senses) and the mind represent the eleven Rudras. Sri Hanuman is a manifestation or aspect of Rudra only.

In Siva-Purana, Rudra is another name for Siva. Rudra is one who destroys the sins and removes the miseries of His devotees and confers on them wisdom and bliss. Rudra is the Antaryamin or indweller of all beings. He witnesses silently the actions and thoughts of men and dispenses the fruits of their actions.

“That one God, having His eyes, His face, His arms and feet in every place, when producing heaven and earth, forges them together with His arms and His wings”.

May Rudra, the creator and supporter of the gods, the great seer, the Lord of all, who created at first Hiranyagarbha, endow us with good thought (pure intellect).

“Rudra, with Thy form which is auspicious, which is not dreadful, and which manifests what is holy, with that all-blessed form, appear to us, O Dweller among the mountains”.

What proof do you need to believe that Agastya and Vasishtha didn't worship Shiva??? Read the lives of these great MahaRishis. Go and read their work and treatsies. Go and find out about their sadhnas. What do you know about Agastya and Vasishtha??? What sadhna was the accomplishment of Sage Agastya? What initiation did Rama accept from Agstya? Why? Answer this.

If there is something you can't comprehend or accept due to personal belief or problem, you have a ready made answer which is as wicked and as deluding - "to delude the wicked". If A.B. De worshipped Krishna then Krishna must be worth worshipping to?? Or no?

If greatest of Munis - Vasishtha and Agastya and Vishwamitra worshipped Shiva, then there was a solid reason behind it?

Rama himself took refuge under their holy feet and accepted them as His Gurus!! This is a historical FACT! What's there to prove??? You can refuse the whole history altogether.

And you chant Hare Rama Hare Rama, you bow down to him and offer your obeisance to him and consider him as God!! So maybe he did something right? eh?

Why did Rama and Krishna and Vamdev, (Vasishtha, Agastya, Upmanyu..) worship Shiva???********

 

There is no evidence for any of this, and if at all it's true, it's for the purpose of asuramohana, or to delude the wicked. Guess that explains it.

 

As for Vashishta, Agastya worshipping shiva, does that make Shiva superior? If scores of people worship Bush, does that make him superior to Shiva?

 

The rest of your post is plain nonsense, it's all your opinion with no basis in the veda.

Sadasiva

At the end of Pralaya, the Supreme Lord thinks of re-creation of the world. He is then known by the name Sadasiva. He is the root-cause of creation. From Sadasiva creation begins. In Manusmriti He is called Svayambhu. Sadasiva is unmanifested, He destroys the Tamas caused by Pralaya and shines as the self-resplendent light bringing forth the five great elements, etc., into being.

The Siva Purana says that Siva is beyond both Prakriti and Purusha. Siva is Mahesvara. He is the witness, well-wisher and nourisher of all beings. The Gita says: ‘Upadrashtanumanta cha bharta bhokta mahesvarah’.

Mahesvara conducts the work of creation according to His will and pleasure. The Sruti says, ‘Mayam tu prakritim viddhi mayinam tu mahesvaram’. Know Prakriti to be Maya and Mahesvara to be the wielder of Maya or Prakriti. The Shakti of Siva works in two different ways. Mula Prakriti and Daivi Prakriti. Mula Prakriti is Apara Prakriti from which the five elements and other visible objects and the Antahkarana are evolved. Para Prakriti is Chaitanya Sakti which converts the Apara Prakriti and gives name and form to it. Apara Prakriti is Avidya and Para Prakriti is Vidya. The controller and dispenser of these two Prakritis is Lord Siva.

Siva is distinct from Brahma, Vishnu and Rudra.

Lord Siva is the Lord of innumerable crores of Brahmandas or worlds. Isvara united with

Maya gives rise to Brahma, Vishnu and Rudra out of Rajas, Sattva and Tamo Gunas respectively,

under the command of Lord Siva. Brahma, Vishnu and Rudra are the trinities of the world.

There is no difference among the trinities, Brahma, Vishnu and Rudra. By the command of Mahesvara these three do the creative, preservative and destructive duties of the world. The work of all the three deities is done conjointly. They all have one view and one definite purpose in creating,

preserving and destroying the visible universe of names and forms. He who regards the three deities as distinct and different, Siva Purana says, is undoubtedly a devil or evil spirit.

The Lord who is beyond the three Gunas, Mahesvara, has four aspects: Brahma, Kala,

Rudra and Vishnu. Siva is the support for all the four. He is the substratum for Sakti also. Siva is

distinct from the Rudra included in the trinities. Rudra is really one though according to the

different functions He is considered to have eleven different forms.

The first face of Siva does Krida or play, the second does penance, the third destroys or dissolves the world, the fourth protects the people and the fifth, being knowledge, fully covers the entire universe by its power. He is Isana the creator and promoter of all beings, from within.

The first form of Siva is the enjoyer of Prakriti as Kshetrajna Purusha. The second is Tatpurusha resting in Sattva-guna, rooted in Bhogya-Prakriti, the Prakriti-enjoyed. The third is Ghora rooted in the eightfold Buddhi like Dharma, etc. The fourth is Vamadeva rooted in Ahankara and the fifth is Sadyojata, the presiding deity of the mind. The eight forms of Siva are Sarva, Bhava, Rudra, Ugra, Bhima, Pasupati, Isana and Mahadeva, rooted respectively in earth, water, fire, air, ether, Kshetrajna, sun and moon.

All your claims are yours alone. Whether something is vedic or not, one has to know by reading Vedas.

Why don't the Hare Krishnas read Vedas then? Why did Prabhupada put a restriction on them reading anything besides his translated work?

The Gaudiyas are not translating Rig,Yajur and Sama Vedas. So this knowledge is not for you then I guess. Why would you even bother quoting them?

Advaita is the most anti-Vedic teaching, in the sense it is daimetrically opposed to Vedic teaching.

Actually it is the other way round. It is diametrically opposed to your personal way of thinking which is by now conditioned in bheda-bheda dvaita. So you can't understand and accept the other side of the story. And this prevents you from getting the complete picture. But you can live with half of it at least. At least something.

Whio cares about your faulty and wrong opinions ?

 

The verses are clear that Lord Narayana aka Shri Krishna is the Soul of Universe. As per Shatapatha Brahamana, Shiva is not.

Aham Brahmasmi is said by Brahman here and in Upanishads. This is a separate issue.

Still you cannot explain or accpet the Shatapatha Brahmana verses where Lord Rudra himself says that he is sinful(anapahatapaapma).

Can you ? You cannot, because there truth is very explicit unlike diametrically opposed to your fallacious premise.

You can push and huff quoting Shatapatha Brahamana, but LORD SHIVA ain't coming down to the gaudiya demi-God level. Sad for you, but so true.

Why don't you read Rudra Upanishad to know Rudra? I can't read the biography of Nelson Mandela to know about Mahatma Gandhi! Maybe add Markandey Puran to your library too.

Demi-God for one, is just one of the few terms invented in the neo-krishnaism (just like "Supreme Personality of Godhead", etc). You read a verse, but lack understanding to comprehend it. You cannot come to a conclusion just by reading one text. If people had to believe your stupid assumption of Shiva being just a sinful being, then all the Shiva temples will have to close down, did Rama simply wasted his time worshiping Shiva? and Krishna who because of Shiva's mercy became the Soul of the Universe, really had no business worshipping him in the first place? It is not what you think. And I'm not going to try drag you out of your one track mind. Stay there. You look good in your own place.

I asked you to explain Anushasana parva and you totally failed to do so and dismissed it by saying it as false since it does not agree with a few verses from your shruti.

You also failed to show us one shruti where any other diety is said to be param Parastad.

You further said it is concocted!! By whom? You are trying to apply these rules, but do not have a proper understanding of the spirit behind them. Your spirit of understanding this is coming from Gaudiya literature. And as we all know, Gaudiyas have never been any authority on explaining Lord Shiva. Srila Prabhupda did try by giving some milk and curd example though.

And the right spirit in understanding Shiva is something that comes because of mercy from a higher source. Sorry man, bookish reading and cramming doesn't always help here. It can make you a scholar, but not a siddha. And without siddhi, your knowledge remains a theory alone. You can talk and talk about swimming, but you are not a swimmer.

Now, in your enthusiasm to vociferate against Shiva's high position, you are contradicting your own self. The logic you presented is foolish. If Shiva/Rudra is sinful, then by applying your logic - so is Vishnu/aka Krishna. Since Shiva keeps Vishnu in his heart always. And Vishnu/Krishna bows down to himself in Shiva's heart. How can Shiva keep Vishnu in his heart and keep meditating on him for yuga's after yuga's and still be sinful?? Or maybe he's washed off some of the sins by now? In that case every Krishna bhakta will ever remain sinful, they can hardly reach Shiva's level?! eh?

Why does Hari/Krishna bow to and worship Shiva in every incarnation?

How can Brahma give birth to a sinful personality? Explain this first! You are forcing this verse on us as an all and all conclusion of "Vedic" knowledge deciding Shiva's position, but can you really explain it? Your explaination is immature and incomplete.

What was the reason of his sinful "birth"?

Why did Rama and Krishna and Vamdev, (Vasishtha, Agastya, Upmanyu, Markandey..) worship Shiva???

SHIVA IS AUSPICIOUS. IF RUDRA IS SINFUL AND IF RUDRA AND SHIVA ARE THE SAME, THEN HOW CAN AUSPICOUS BE SINFUL???

If they are not the same then your statement is not for Shiva, but Rudra alone? Explain.

As far as we know, Shiva is pure cosmic consciousness that is neither born nor ends. And this small verse from Shatapatha Brahmana, is not capable of explaining Lord Shiva's full position. It just explain this Rudra's position which is not accepted by most Shaiv or Shakta or even some Vaishnava schools (except the harekrishna's of course). Period.

The Sruti says, ‘Mayam tu prakritim viddhi mayinam tu mahesvaram’. Know Prakriti to be Maya and Mahesvara

to be the wielder of Maya or Prakriti.

So what. If somebody says I have realized that S is same as V, should I agree with him. How do you know if he/she is realized ?

 

1. you should be realized

2. There should be some basis for ordinary people to find it out.

 

The basis for us is Vedas. That is why the special status for Vedas as apaurasheya. So let us stick to logic instead of irrelevant topics like my realization or yours. It can easily backfire on you.

 

By your logic(not mine), since you are not realized you are not in any position to tell others whether they are correct or wrong. Such arguments are unproductive for you.

 

 

 

Mindless opinions based on one's own opinions and arrogance. Base your arguments on Sruti. Otherwise every tom, dick and harry can say anything they want and the end result is chaos as we today have in so called Hinduism that strayed far away from Vedas even to such an extent as to reject Vedas. The case in point is Lingayats.

 

 

 

Who told you that scriptural study does not constitute Sadhna ? Why else there are scriptures provided ?

 

 

 

Jnana means knowledge. So whatever you start with wrong knowledge, you are not going to get anything. All your questions have been answered clearly from Scriptures. If you still want to follow your own path fine.

That is path of Yoga. Which you can't follow nor understand. It is not a path of arguments to start with. It is Vedic. Again, you don't seem to understand, because you want proof from scriptures. The proof I have given is not enough for you. You can reject parts of Mahabharata all you want because some are not matching your srutis. If you read Anushasana Prava again, dozens of Rishis come to Krishna and state their experience in realization of Shiva. Now according to you they all shoudl differ! But they all state similar experience. It is for the blind lost in dualism who find it all different. Like the blind touching the elephant found it different.

If fire burns your hand, or water wets your hand, it is the truth. And upon experincing, this will be the same experience for all. You don't always need a book to prove it. Universal truths are the same when experiences. It is not speculation arising from arrogance or ego. For you can't rise in Yog if you are following arrogance and ego and that is the litmus test. Further more you can't rise in yoga without a sadguru. Who himself is a realized soul. I understand what you mean by reading scriptures and repeating what is there. It is all there already! Anyone can read it. But without realization, it means nothing. Until and unless you realize it, until and unless you come face to face with facts, not just by reading them, they still remain unrealized by YOU. You have to realized them after reading and believing what is written in the Vedas. Certainely I accept the Vedas and consider them as a guide.

Lord says I'm in the heart of every one. You believe that. But you can still get annoyed with others or feel enimosity towards them. Can you actually see the Lord? That is the question. Yes Vedas give the truth, but unless you realize it...

follow your own logic dude.

As far as chaos called Hinduism is concerned, then I can name the chaos Dvait and Gaudiya organizations are into today. All are divided because can't agree over simple issues, have sprouted out different branches and have issues, enimosity, hatred and jealousy (like who made more money from sale of books and who is making more disciples etc). Let's not get in to that.

You follow Dvaita so Advaita for you is false.

You can state one path false, if it leads nowhere or does not lead to the target destination. If that was the case, then there wouldn't have been any Rishis following that path. Advaita wouldn't have produced so many great Rishis.

If Advaita was all that false, why would Vishvambar Mishra go to one after the other to two advaita Gurus from Shankaracharya lineage for knowledge and initiation? Even though he seemed to preach dvaita philosophy?

nArAyaNAtmako GYeyaH pANDaveya yuge yuge

O Arjuna, know that in every yuga, Rudra is 'nArAyaNAtmaka'. This phrase can

mean: one whose indweller is Narayana, one who is always immersed in

Narayana.

Yes whose indweller is Narayana, but who himself every yuga Rudra is also in the heart of Narayana. The atma of Narayana (!)

tasminhi pUjyamAne vai devadeve maheshvare

sampUjito bhavetpArtha devo nArAyaNaH prabhuH

It is the Lord, the prabhu, the Narayana in Maheshvara (the worshippable,

the lord of the devas), who is actually worshipped.

Lord of Lords. Yes Maheswara is the DevaDeve - Lord of the Lords, not a -demi-God! But Lord of the demiGods. Similarly, when Vishnu is worshipped, Shiva is worshipped in his heart too. Shiva states this clearly because the same Maheswara is ever in Vishnu's heart and is the Paramatma and ParBrahm.

ahamAtmA hi lokAnAM vishvAnAM pANDunandana

tasmAdAtmAnamevAgre rudraM sampUjayAmyaham

yadyahaM nArchayeyaM vai IshAnaM varadaM shivam

AtmAnaM nArchayetkashchiditi me bhAvitaM manaH

O Son of Pandu, I am, indeed, the Atma, the indweller of this universe and

the worlds. Therefore, I worship myself first, even when I worship Rudra. If

I did not worship Rudra, the bestower of boons, in such a way (i.e.,

worshipping the indwelling Lord first), some would not worship me, the

indwelling Lord, at all - this is my opinion.

No problem with that.

mayA pramANaM hi kR^itaM lokaH samanuvartate

pramAnAni hi pUjyAni tatastaM pUjayAmyaham

 

Whatever I follow and give due worth as a pramANa, the world follows that.

Such pramANAs have to be duly followed; therefore I follow them.

 

yastaM vetti sa mAM vetti yo.anu taM sa hi mAm anu

rudro nArAyaNashchaiva sattvamekaM dvidhAkR^itam

loke charati kaunteya vyakti sthaM sarvakarmasu

Whoever knows him, knows Me. Whoever follows him, follows ME. (Though) the

world, in all its actions, worships two Gods Rudra and Narayana, it is

actually One only(i.e. Narayana, the indweller of Rudra) who is worshipped.

YES this is important. BUT it is both ways. Narayan the indweller of Rudra and Rudra the indweller of Narayana! This is the truth Raghu. See it.

na hi me kenachid deyo varaH pANDavanandana

iti sa~ncintya manasA purANaM vishvamIshvaram

putrArthaM ArAdhitavAn AtmAnaM aham AtmanA

O Son of Pandu, there is, of course, nobody who can grant me boons. Knowing that well, I worhip myself, Who am the beginningless and universal power, known as Sarveshvara, for the sake of getting sons.

na hi viShNuH pranamati kasmai chidvibudhAya tu

R^ita AtmAnameveti tato rudraM bhajAmyaham

Indeed Vishnu does not bow to any one and [even when He bows to Himself], for what sake, but for the sake of showing the path to the wise. Therefore,

it is the truth that I worship myself even when I worship Rudra.

This is not a simple quote. And not to be understood simply. It points to the same line as ahambrahmasmi. Which again has been laughed upon by the davatins, the hare krishnas etc. This speaks about the level of closeness of Shiva and Vishnu. But you are able to focus only on the Vishnu part even here. Vishnu worships himself while worshipping Rudra, because he sees no difference between the two. He sees himself as one with Rudra. What happens to the God positioning agenda here? Trash it.

Also many times I hear dvaitins say oh Krishna worshipped Shiva to show through his example. But hardly any Hari bhakta follows that example. I enjoy worshipping Hari.

sabrahmakAH sarudrAshcha sendrA devAH saharShibhiH

archayanti surashreShThaM devaM nArAyaNaM harim

 

The Brahmas, the Rudras, the Indras, the Devatas, all the Rishis worship the best among the Gods, Narayana, Hari.

 

bhaviShyatAM vartatAM cha bhUtAnAM chaiva bhArata

sarveShAmagraNIrviShNuH sevyaH pUjyashcha nityashaH

 

Always, of all the past, future and present, it is first, Vishnu who is to

be propitiated and worshipped.

 

namasva havyadaM viShNuM tathA sharaNadaM nama

varadaM namasva kaunteya havyagavya bhujaM nama

 

[You] bow to Lord Vishnu, Who grants the material for oblations [so that the devotee can perform worship]. Bow to One, Who gives refuge to the devotees.

Bow to One, Who gives boons to the devotees. Bow to One, Who consumes all the oblations and milk, curds, etc.

 

chaturvidhA mama janA bhaktA evaM hi te shrutam

teShAmekAntinaH shreShThAste chaivAnanya devatAH

ahameva gatisteShAM nirAshIH karma kAriNAm

ye cha shiShTAstrayo bhaktAH phalakAmA hi te matAH

sarve chyavana dharmANaH pratibuddhastu shreShTha bhAk

brahmANaM shiti kanthaM cha yAshchAnyA devatAH smR^itAH

prabuddhavaryAH sevante eSha pArthAnukItritaH

bhaktaM prati visheShaste eSha pArthAnukIrtitaH

 

There are four kinds of devotees. Among them the best are the "ekanta

bhaktas" like the gods. I am their refuge, who do action interested in

nothing except me. The other three kinds are desirous of fruits of action.

They move on the path of Dharma, enlightened share their knowledge with

others. They worship Brahma, Rudra and other

gods, with their own enlightenment. O Partha, they go unto the god, they

worship.

All this is true. But the problem is that you are trying to separate Vishnu from Shiva and perch one above the other on a shelf and give them three or five stars. The quotes you pasted here clearly state on the closeness of Vishnu and Shiva. Both are in each other's heart always. Inseperable. And they both worship each other. Vishnu doesn't worship for boons, but worships Shiva for a thousand years and gets Sudarshan Chakra as a boon. Shiva says I create as Brahma, sustain as Vishnu and destroy as Rudra. Vishnu accepts this in Padma Purana. Here Vishnu says similar thing. Does this still ring any bells? If it still doesn't, then sorry. Vishnu is Supreme. I have no doubt about this. Shiva is Supreme, I have no doubt about this either. You can quote another volume, so can I.

But this is the conclusion. I am not interested in perching my self above you. What's the use?

I accept both as equal. Now all matters is my personal sadhna.

There has to be a conclusion for me. I can't move with Dualism. One has to rise above dualism and see the universe as His manifested shakti. He is in everything and is the cause of everything. I call him Shiva. You can call him Vishnu. That is not the point. The point is again, where do I stand and what is my status. How can I rise above this. And that is what matters my friend. I have no powers to decide on the positions of Gods. I still have to reach them to see it.

Mantra heenam, kriya heenam, bhakti heenam sureshwara, yat pujitam maya deve, paripurnam tadastu mev! Om Namah Shivaya.

You have no capacity to understand logic properly.

I can fairly understand your logic Raghu.

LOL! You reject Mahabharata as something concocted when it comes to Anushasana Parva just to disprove my point, saying itihas is tempered with, but when it comes to proving your own point, you copy paste a long part of the same Mahabharata just to prove impound your own point!! That is logic?

Since you already disapproved Mahabharata as a mere concoction and not real, then this whole long post submitted by you is not to be considered seriously at all. You yourself discredited it in teh first place! Now you can't use Mahabharata as a reference dude! This was about your logic.

However, on a more serious note, I have no problem at all accepting both the Shanti Parva and Anushasan Parva. And I have no problem accepting Lord Vishnu as Supreme and Lord Shiva as Supreme too.

I suggest, you study Advait Vedanta along with your own davait bhava for a more complete understanding. Both are to be accepted. Then you will be able to come to terms with Shiva and Vishnu. Unless you are leading with one camp alone, the other camp will look as your opponent only. If this was to be the case in the spiritual world, then Shiva and Vishnu would be fighting Star Wars in every Yuga. But this is a low human ego centered viewpoint.

As I wrote here before, the problem is with the monkeys of Rama and the ghosts of Shiva. Shiva and Vishnu don't have any. It is the followers who fight and prove-disprove. And that is the whole logic Raghu.

And yes I read and accept the part in bold from Shanti Parva. No problems here with Hari. But I do accept everything that Krishna says about Shiva in Anushasana Prava too! And if you want to give credit to these verses from Shanti Parva, then give credit to ones from Anushasana Parva. Krishna himself speaks them. If you base your "judgement" Vedas, then why not accept verses given earlier from Rig and Sama Veda by Atanu too?

How does it matter if you recognize or do not recognize Srutis ? You are not that important.

No and nor are you.

I didn't say I don't recognize the Srutis. If you developed better understanding, you would start noticing that I do not recognize this one sided positioning agenda. Because this is not totally Vedic either. As you mentioned Srutis are contradictory and equally important, they hail both Narayana and Rudra/Shiva as Supreme. Why? Why not just Narayana as you claim? And the secret is not easy to understand if you research with a God positioning agenda. Again. I accept both the views and not just one view. I can't belittle Shiva in any way or consider him any lower than Narayana/Hari. AND CERTAINELY NOT A MERE DEMI-GOD! Whatever scriptures I have studied are enough to prove that to me. And after all, its also a matter of personal belief. I like your way of proving. But still on the basis of scriptural study alone, you can't realize even the self. Forget Narayana/Hari. All you can do is assume. Nothing more. Just a belief. But no realization.

The same Lord Hari explains his Gita to Arjuna - greatest of the yogis, one after the other chapter and still Arjuna fails to completely understand unless Hari finally openes his agya chakra with shaktipaat kriya and shows him the universal form in him. And then no arguments are needed anymore. Hearing is not seeing. Sorry. And I assume you have not seen Shiva nor Narayana.

I'm not a vedantin engaged in verse warfare proving, disproving. I'm a sadhak and way of sadhna means everything and is indeed everything. Because without sadhna there is nothing. There is Narayana, but you can't realize him without sadhna. You can't get his mercy without earning it first either. No matter how much you jump up and down and shout with arguments from scriptures.

Though a lawyer can prove false as true or otherwise, it doesn't change things really. And the truth cannot be realized without sadhna. It comes on a different level. Not on a level of reading scriptures. Scripture reading is important too. But not everything. Only "gyan" brings to liberation. And "gyan" is not theory alone. Theory is knowledge. This is what you are engaged into and are flaunting. But it is when you apply this in life and get results from it, that is gyana. Anyways... dismiss this post as irrelevant.