M-dd

Originally posted by Odiyya:

Jndas. i read your article and although you seemed somewhat logical there is something you said that makes me question the validity of your whole argument. You said or implied that homosexuality was a "choice." That leads me to believe that you're biased and really don't know much about this as you claim to know. As a gay man I can tell you that it's NOT a choice. ...

Dear Oddiya,

So you made the choice last lifetime, and this lifetime you are stuck with it. Cause and effect, action and reaction, the law of karma is intricate and exacting.

But don't despair because Krsna and His pure devotees will never reject you. The prescription is the same for your good self as it is for straight guys and gals. Chant Hare Krsna, and you will rise above your gross sexual bodily identification. All sincere aspirants have to rise above their bodily conditioning, and the first lesson is that you are not that body, gay or straight.

As you progress, you will want to follow rules and regulations to aid and abet your further advancement, and at that point you will have to come to the point of giving up illicit sex. Licit sex is sex within marriage and for the purpose of raising Krsna conscious children. However you interpret this, whatever rationalizations you want to make in this regard, how closely you want to follow it, all this is between yourself and Krsna. You have a conscience, and that is Supersoul, and He will guide you, so turn within yourself sincerely and reveal your mind and heart to Him.

When you are most serious about making spiritual advancement, then you must approach a bona-fide spiritual master, inquire from him submissively, and try to learn the truth, 'the self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the Truth'. I recommend you read Bhagavad-gita As It Is, thoroughly, and you will find a true connection to Supersoul.

You can find it at this site, you might have to key it in though, (no it works, I just tried it)---

http://www.asitis.com/

Chant Hare Krsna. And the rest will manifest automatically in your life as you endeavour more and more sincerely to elevate yourself to the transcendental platform, ultimately finding out that such elevation comes directly via the mercy of the pure devotee. Such mercy is already upon you! Accept it and chant Hare Krsna!

[This message has been edited by M-dd (edited 10-23-2001).]

Dear Leyh prabhu,

Here is a sample of what comes out of valaya in response to my posting the glories of Srila Prabhupada's bringing Lord Sri Caitanya's movement to the west----

Originally posted by valaya:

If someone tries to shove something down another's throat (`Debate This!`), they can expect to be vomited on. Intentional provocation inspires reaction in kind. Then, of course, the usual cries of offensive, abusive, etc. ring out self-righteously. All this is always done in the name of loving service to Sri Guru and Gauranga!

 

We've been here before, on other forums, with the same individuals who seem adamantly locked in the past, while continuing to viciously lash out at others rather than face their own obvious shortcomings. The only solution, albeit temporary, remains avoidance. Perhaps all they have to teach us is self-control...though not by their own examples.

 

For those to whom Srila Prabhupada, as THEY understand him, continues to be their all-in-all and the sole personification of absolute truth, other forums are available. In fact, many of us here are not welcome there, so a certain `intolerance` might be expected on the part of some of us.

 

If so-called `Prabhupadanugas` actually were that, their fruits of devotion would be apparent to everyone. As for those who continue to identify themselves as initiated disciples after abandoning their vows... Give us a break, eh?

 

valaya RR

So all that was in response to the following post of mine----

Sirla Prabhupada brought Krsna to the western world, making His Holy Name familiar in every town and village. The Hare Krsna's became household knowledge everywhere, due to his efforts and the extending efforts of his followers. In fact, Harinam Sankirtan appears in numerous Hollywood movies as part of our culture, solely due to the efforts of Srila Prabhupada. Thus he is qualified as world acarya, proven by this external manifestation of Lord Caitanya's empowerment, and any who follow in his wake can be understood to be exhaulted to the degree they revere and emulate his passtimes and follow his footsteps. Thus, those who speak against him and his transcendental explainations and conclusions, they are the sectarean ones. Those who try to minimize his great unrivalled transcendental feet, they are the sectarean ones. Those who try to cloud the Absolute Truth he disseminated, they are the sectarean ones. They are the envious ones. They are the ones who CANNOT deliver transcendental knowledge of Krsna, or the potency of His Holy Name.

So this post was attacked by valaya, exactly what I've accused him of. I hope this clarifies the real problem for all honest readers, I'm bowing out of further discussion, all are welcome to their own conclusions, mine stand as I've already stated, and I'm not afraid to say so, because I've learned to stand up to bullies.

Originally posted by leyh:

Dear M-dd:

I don't see how you can say that Valaya has "rejected" Srila Prabhupada."Reject" is a very strong word to use.

VALAYA UVACA---Originally posted by amanpeter:

This and my previous quote from Srila Prabhupada are meant solely as a contribution to the philosophical discussion here. Neither is an expression of my own personal belief system. That revolves only around Srimati Radharani as the personification and source of Divine Grace. My conclusions are based on personal direct experience and merely confirmed by scripture.

So, what is this, acceptance? And this conclusion is in no way confirmed by scripture, which, au contraire proclaim the absolute necessity of approaching Radha-Krsna through the guru, not independently.

LEYH--- Also, I have read through most of your posts and have detected a lot of negative emotions and hostility to those who do not share your views.

This isn't about views or opinions. Your reaction to my words are your own feelings. I become angry only when Srila Prabhupada is slandered or his transcendental message misrepresented, and when abuse and bullying are allowed to reign, and if you can't see valaya's constant attempt to discredit him and to shut up those wishing to do the opposite, I can't help you, but be warned if you value your own creeper, for this kind of association is indeed contaminating. It's not all one, like valaya likes to say, it's one and different, we are individual, and we are not all the same, some choose to accept guru and others choose to reject. Those who reject guru should also be rejected, it's that simple.

It is quite sad for Krsna Consciousness if people who claim to be defending it are not doing with calm rationality but with unconstructive vehement language.

It is sad for Krsna consciousness the volume of those who wish to post in pretense while speaking poison out the other side of their mouths. I feel duty-bound to the thankless task of pointing it out when I see it, for the possible benefit of some innocent reader who might get sucked into the games these people play. I know valaya can be pretty convincing sometimes, but those are mere flowery words. I don't feel vehemence towards him, I find him laffable and pitiable. But I am beginning to feel this forum is pointless, for the truth is not being desired or pursued honestly. Did you not see all the attacks made just on this thread, in reaction to my posting the glories of Srila Prabhupada? Can't you see the enviousness in that? Perhaps you should go back and see what valaya's been saying BEFORE I got on his case, with the only provokation being my intent to establish the glories of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. That was all it took for valaya and others to come on guns blazing. Why aren't you noticing the vehement envy they are expressing?

ps. great thread!

thread after thread

Wish he would just be quiet.

Originally posted by valaya:

 

And still trying to show off I see.

 

 

You're hysterical. Yeah, gimme the temples, money and power, my only desire in life, all I ever wanted. What an interpretation for my trying to establish the empowered authority of Srila Prabhupada in Sri Caitanya's mission! But such is your envious mentality, you who defy the guru and refuse to accept a guru. Well, no wonder your mind is so befuddled, and thus you denounce me as if you know what following in the footsteps even means, in your sick sahajiya mind.

 

Her High Priestessness

 

Hey, thanks for the compliment, but I have no such lofty vision of myself.

 

 

His other children? You are now one of his children? His children do not defy him, especially by trying to jump over his head and claim an independent relationship with the Supreme Lord and/or His Eternal Consort. You haven't even begun your spiritual life, yet you are so puffed up and arrogant that you believe yourself to have something to offer others. Spiritual life begins at initiation, whether that initiation be via fire sacrifice or any other mystical means, but only an offender would claim a transcendent relationship without said initiation in humility at the lotus feet of guru. Guru is not an imperson. Srila Prabhupada is the guru, the person, for love of whom the Deities have been pleased to grace the rest of us with Their darshan in his established temples. Only through him can you know Radharani. Therefore your claim of intimacy is false, and such a false claim is evil.

 

 

First, let's clarify, you don't challenge, you attack. Second, I have nowhere seeken to establish any authority of my own, simply the authority of Jagat Guru. It is pure envy on your part that you have continually attacked me for this. Read Caitanya Caritamrta and take note of how the exhaulted devotees even give credit always to guru, to numerous gurus. Yet you are so puffed up you spout off your no guru philosophy with great arrogance, very dangerous association for innocent persons to have, can only confuse them and may even inspire them into the demonic path you have chosen. I guess you can't get 'followers' via the straight and narrow method so you're offering an inferior version of spirituality hoping to get followers that way, followers who don't want to surrender to guru like yourself. What a pitiful waste of this human form of life

 

 

You're already there, you don't need my help. And I am not your little sister, or related to you in any way but the MOST DISTANT.

 

 

I am certainly in a position to see the offensiveness of your mentality of rejecting guru. I haven't imagined your rejection, you have declared it loudly over and over.

 

 

You have no humility and your opinion is worth zip to any transcendentalist. The first and foremost step in approaching the Supreme destination is to approach guru. This is declared in shastra, the real authority, I only repeat it. You cannot receive the darshan of Radharani without His Divine Grace, and you cannot receive His Divine Grace without surrendering to his lotus feet. You reject him, therefore you are simply a liar and a cheater posing as a realized devotee. That is poison and it is disgusting, indeed it is, and it's your stuff, not mine.

 

My Valaya, you're so into showing off your chastizements. It's almost cute, like a little boy...almost.

Sad as it is, her death sure beats the spiritual fatality of debating with or talking to your bad self as well as most others on this forum that I am quickly tiring of. You are poisonous and disgusting association. You are a killer of the soul. I have no sympathy left for you or for several others here. Attack me, go ahead, I don't read most of your posts and wouldn't click inside if I'd seen your name. I hope this ruins your day, for maybe you can still have a spiritual change of heart if you hit rock bottom. But to do that, you'd have to acknowledge just who the pure devotee guru is that benedicted us all with the association of Radhrani in Her Deity forms Whom you impersonally claim to have such intimacy with, while jumping over his head. You're a spirtually cheating looser, headed for the darkest regions of ignorance. Heed the warning if you like, or go directly on your path to hell.

Originally posted by gopal:

Good meassage there. Now how is this for accepting Prabhupad? Another from mr confused.

 

QUOTE]Originally posted by amanpeter:

Just for the record, prabhu, he is NOT my guru nor do I accept any other jiva soul, to the exclusion of others, in that role. My guru/God is Sri Radha ONLY, though I try to see Her in ALL others. I understand how important diksa and parampara are to you, but I believe as Divine Grace personified, in fact it's very source, She is beyond all that and nothing is impossible for Her. All necessary arrangements will be made in this or some future lifetime. At this point, thanks in no small part to my involvement with ISKCON, I am unable to see clearly who is who or what is what, let alone commit myself to anyone eternally but Her.

 

 

 

'thanks in no small part to my involvement within iskcon I am unable to see clearly who is who or what is what, etc?'

This is to be pitied but point is this is from one who claims to respect Prabhupada. Point is not to disturb needlessly but this ignorance has to be shown.

Janus>>... Srila Prabhupada is an eternally liberated soul who presented Krsna consciousness perfectly in accordance with time, place and capacity under the direction of Krsna in response to his pleas to make him dance.

...

I did not say that ISKCON was a transcendental body, only that Srila Prabhupada, under Sri Krsna's direction presented Krsna consciousness perfectly, according to time, place and capacity.

... the loiberated soul is never deluded, ... but upon the middle platform he appears to be deluded, or delusional... The difference is that the spell that a liberated soul is under is that of Krsna's yogamaya, not of Maya. Also the liberated soul upon the middle platform is not aware that he is liberated, this is necessary for presentation, as on the battlefield of Kuruksetra Arjuna, an eternally liberated sould was put into delusion so that the Gita could be spoken for our benefit. We are cautioned repeatedly in the shastra against viewing the Guru with our mundane appraisal. We are cautioned repeatedly because it is our tendency to find fault and apparent faults are always there for our mind to sieze upon. ...

According to time, place and capacity Srila Prabhupada presented Krsna conscious perfectly, whether we recieved it perfectly, you or I or Iskcon, is another matter. "The fault dear Brutus, is not in our stars but in ourselves."

"Belief" is a position of blind faith ignorance, ...

I know that Srila Prabhupada was liberated, I do not "believe". I know because I passed my test and because he awarded me with a degree of liberation and my relationship with him was upon a different level. I have direct cognition that I am eternal, that I am spirit soul, I do not believe, I know.

Anyone can achieve this, and beyond...

I also know that all these statements about His Divine Grace are true. I know, not believe. Yet due to some dislike on your part for my faulty wording, you have concluded otherwise. I also know that Srila Prabhupada has been pleased with me, and has awarded me with pure devotional service. The plug is out of the fan, maybe the blades still go around a bit, but there is no doubt the result is there and only time separates. Why do you think otherwise? Why do you think that your glorification of Srila Prabhupada is based in realization and mine in blind faith? Just because of what some of the fools here say? Or is it your own foolish pride?

Originally posted by Janus:

Jijaji scratches his head, mystified as to why anyone would post in such a manner. People do not in general challenge their beliefs.

Huh??? I'm not challenging my beliefs! I'm challenging the offenders who wish to minimize and slander His Divine Grace to prove what I said is not true. You said much the same as me, but you apparently like your own wording far better than mine.

This is not in accordance with Vaisnava philosophy which requires that we argue strongly against our postulates, and prove them, but it is in accordance with our conditioning. Nietche observed that people do not want challenging questions, that they want comforting explanations instead. Bill Cosby the famous Afro-American comedian perhaps said it better. Commenting upon the same defect, the product again of our conditioning and conditioned defects; he said that parents aren't interested in justice, that they just want quiet.

First let me say that as a parent, I was always first and foremost interested in justice and the transmission of higher knowledge. If you intended this analogy to cite that somehow I am desperately trying to quiet the challenges to my beliefs, why on earth would I say 'debate this!'? You're not making sense.

Ultimately, my purpose, which appears lost to not only the envious, but to thinking devotees like yourself too, was to silence the blasphemous ideas against Srila Prabhupada. That is not for my peace of mind, that is for the good of all souls who are otherwise contaminated by the poison. Furthermore, when one is defeated in debate, it is Vedic to accept the real conclusion and change, and I do not give up all hope for offenders to have the necessary change of heart they need to overcome their enviousness.

In the Bhagavad Gita it mentions the actual four types of persons that actually approach Krsna, amonst which are the distressed. Quite a few of us were responding to an emotional impetus rather than a pholosophical justification,...

It is really incorrect for you to make this judgement on my reasons for joining and my shraddha in Srila Prabhupada. I read Bhagavad-gita As It Is four times while joining, so when I first went to a temple I didn't need any gita verses quoted to me as to why I should perform devotional service, take prasadam and surrender to Krsna. My sraddha in His Divine Grace is based solely on the fact that I know he has planted the bhakti lata bhija within my heart, and the gita contained the answers to life that I had been searching for all my life. Nothing to do with emotions. The emotions come later, in gratitude and loving reciprocation for such causeless mercy and transcendental bliss and spiritual realizations I have been benedicted with.

or a search for truth when we became devotees. We accepted, believing blindly and never challenging our beliefs, even though to do so required that we suspend reason, and accept what we are conditioned to regard as completely preposterous, like four headed Lord Bhrama, swan aeroplanes, devas and demons going into battle astride giant ducks and rabbits, elephants in Hell etc., There was a child like innocence about us then and a complete bewilderment. We toOk a leap of faith, a big one, and we depended upon Krsna and Srila Prabhupada to catch us. That they did not live up to our childish expectations,...

I have not been disappointed in my expectations, that's for sure.

that the world did not become Krsna Conscious overnight as we all expected it to, and that the movement turned into a theater for abuse has provoked many to become criticizing rather than critical.

And so we should be giving them correct understanding, not making judgements on other devotees who are also working to correct misunderstandings.

The ladies post in question is an emotional respose to the crticisms that are coming in from many directions against Srila Prabhupada, and it is thus not articulated very well. Were it then she would have defined her terminology a little better, what for instance she meant by her claim that Srila Prabhupada deseminated transcendental truths, and she would have backed up her assertions with instances and proofs. As it stands I agree with you that to the average persons appraisal that it is just bewilderning and certainly not an invite that most people would even know how to respond to, let alone feel comfortable with. An open invitation to come and fight.

And so we see that hecklers with no understanding of Krsna consciousness have ONCE AGAIN succeeded in dividing. Just because your mind didn't appreciate my use of language does not make your conclusions here correct by any estimation. Rather, I see you are being affected now by the poison.

Playing the devils advocate in this instance and challenging her claims which are far to ambiguous, poorly defined to respond to, might, as you say; have the effect of demonizing the person doing so to the blind faith believers who are not very familiar with the Krsna conscious method of establishing the absolute truth,

My claims are not in the least ambiguous. You're trying to hard to appeal to those who are envious of the pure devotee. The demon is the one who is antagonistic to Krsna and His pure devotee. Let's not be so new-age-y as to think it's all one, everyone has the same dark side and if anyone disagrees with a devotee's glorification of their guru it is ok to minimize the pure devotee's activities. You are so far from any true 'debate' about this now it is very saddening to see after your previous statements of Truth.

And you can can the accusation that I artificially 'created' demonic reactions in a desire to 'fight'.

which again requires strong arguements against ones own postulate before evidence is even presented. One could start by argueing that ISKCOM evidences clearly that Srila Prabhupada was unable to desiminate any transcendental truths to his closest disciples at least and that the movement as it is right now is continueing evidence of that failure may be included as further arguement against her position.

I didn't write a thesis, I made a statement, and I even presented evidence.

As for Srila Prabhupada's 'close' disciples, who are you considering his 'close' disciples? The ones who usurped and hijacked the movement for their own aggrandizement power and fortune? Don't make me puke.

As for ISKCON standing against my thesis, I stand against ISKCON in it's present state of mis-application of Srila Prabhupada's sublime method, I and thousands of other close disciples of His Divine Grace. Don't you?

Once a person accepts blindly they do not ever have to trouble themselves again about the things that occaisioned the emotional impetus that propelled them to blind faith certitude. Blind faith certitude fulfills an emotional need. Ignorance is bliss.

And your pointing this at me is simply a gross insult.

When I first went into a Krsna temple I required a question to be answered by the ultimate authority of your tradition, before I even sat down and accepted prasadam. The answer to that question was given me directly from the pages of Bhagavad Gita in the manner employed in Bibliomancy, which is asking a question and then opening a Bible to a random page and considering the first thing that you read to be that questions answer. That answer was that Lord Krsna didn't give a damn as to what happened to your material body. Fresh back from Viet Nam I sat down, took prasadam and listened.

When I first went to a temple it was because I wanted to engage in pure devotional service to the Lord and His devotees. I already understood gita. But so what? That will not lead me to criticize you!

... and I never expected the movement to provide me with an old age pension.

What, I did?!?

The lady posting this thread feels that there is something wrong with attacking Srila Prabhupada,

Duh, and what, you don't?

she is expressing her loyalty and her willingness to defend him, she is in pain.

Hari bol

I am expressing a lot more than that. And my pain comes from the degredation to the lives of Srila Prabhupada's devotees and his mission that occurred through mis-representing the philosophy and mis-applying it. That you foresaw this happening does not make you a cut above. That it has happened, has not tainted my sraddha, nor has it tainted Srila Prabhuada's sublime transcendental message.

How is it that you do not instead of attacking me, take issue with the emnity expressed re/Srila Prabhupada? I think you think you are being compassionate and magnanimous, but what you are really doing is giving envy credit that it is not due.

Aspiring to be of service,

Madhavi-devi dasi

Originally posted by mahak:

... but a Krsna Copnscious ruler, first and foremost, would "welcome the religious impulse in humankind", as did Srila Prabhupada. A Krsna Conscious ruler would have complete religious freedom in his kingdom, including freedom to be an atheist, because such a person has faith in the process designed by God to reach an individual (guru tattwa).

 

The reason that religious freedom is tolerated by a Krsna Conscious individual is because the person knows that loving God is based on free will and the choice to render service. Any force and coercion applied to another to enforce sectarian belief is known and seen by the sane to be thoroughly against the laws of spiritual love. Forced love is called rape, and God does not rape anyone.

And I second your motion to the moderator re/banning.

No one needs to curse you, bro, you are already living in the worst condition imaginable.

Precisely. And haven't we seen the spiritual downfall on another forum in just that way, after repeated warnings from caring posters that he subside in his offensive tack? Next everyone felt sorry for him, but this is what I saw all along, what you have described. Now I feel great sadness at the thought that this individual, and many others, will not be able to see His Divine Grace chanting in every town and village of the world, while the whole rest of the world is dancing with him! I am learning what Srila Prabhupada's compassion is, but only a glimpse.

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

Thanks, prabhu, for this great keeping the focus post! All glories to Srila Prabhupada who spread the glories of Lord Sri Caitanya all over the world!

Harer Namah...

And wouldn't you agree, the proposed topic remains un-knicked?

Aspiring to be of service,

M-d.d.

Originally posted by Audarya lila:

...so I don't think it's very relevant for your good self anyway.

Great answer prabhu.

The only issue I have with the type of statement being made is that it sounds like the statement 'My Guru is Jagat Guru - all others are less'.

My guru is Jagat Guru. I am speaking no ill of other gurus.

About Mohammed, the fact is, what he spread in islam or wherever has nothing to do with what I said about Srila Prabhupada spreading the Holy Name to this culture, and around the world. The 'islam' followers do not follow Allah in their hate and terrorisms, as prominent muslim leaders have said, it is against Allah to kill women children and innocent people. Srila Prabhupada said a vaisnava is always a perfect gentleman. A perfect gentleman, vaisnava 'ruler', would not employ such ideas as have been suggested by both Satyaraj and karthika_v suggest.

I don't think that Madhavi-devi dasi meant it that way,

Thanks.

... but there is a real danger for all of us that in our glorification and appreciation of our preceptors that we become myopic and fail to recognize the glory of all of Krsna's messengers.

Point taken. But don't assume the latter point. What is the point of bringing up myopic in the topic? Who is advocating not to reckognize all of Krsna's messengers? Krsna consciousness is personalism, and I am reckognizing personally that of which I have personal experience. Why should that be construed as threatening? Taking the Holy Name into the street is the message, conclusion, Every Town and Village, as Srila Prabhupada would assure us all.

Krsna uses his messenger's however he sees fit. That one spreads the Holy Name far and wide is certainly wonderful but it should be properly understood that Krsna's devotees who don't do so are not less glorious or are to be thought of in a 'lesser' way.

This is completely off the point I made. I said nothing of calling anybody lesser, so how does it apply to a debate? Anybody have those debate rules we were hearing from historic conversations of acaryas, acaryas who are worshippable, there is no shortage of acaryas, nor did I imply there was. And a real acarya will reckognize another real acarya, there is a spiritual relationship they have, and they share with us glimpses of it.

Who is better, the bhajanandi or the gosthanandi? We will leave that for Krsna to decide.

Again, I said nothing of better, I spoke only of one who gives Krsna and embodies the unfathomable depth of compassion and love for all living entities fountains from a heart always in love with Krsna.

The point that I think is very salient that Madhavi-devi dasi is bringing to the forfront is that we should never minimize the glories of Krsna's servants. Anyone who does so is certainly not pleasing Krsna. If we aren't inspired in a certain way - that's fine - we should find the best instruction for us to be inspired and at the same time be very careful to be humble and avoid offenses to those who have dedicated their lives to serving the Lord and spreading the glories of his Holy Name.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

Very well said. Thanks much for this post.

[This message has been edited by M-dd (edited 10-05-2001).]

[This message has been edited by M-dd (edited 10-05-2001).]

Originally posted by suryaz:

 

Many great points you are making Suryaz prabhu. Keep it up! Though I confess to having lost a little of the esoteric thread of Focault, I still get your thread of thoughts and explainations.

 

I take your answer to my question on whether you blame abuse solely on linguistics to be that in the case of distorted religious truths, they can cause as well as support, and I would concur with that now. Even these false linguistics are used to beat devout followers over the head in toxic shaming attempts by envious fools.

 

I'd like to take the 'term' 'institutionalized' and reject the beloved new age idea that ISKCON was just some 'institution' and that Srila Prabhupada's sincere followers were institutionalized sectarean robots, and worse, simply took to Krsna consciousness for the sake of being part of an institution!

 

This idea is folly, and fosters much abuse and offense, just like you keep explaining about linguistics. It is used by the envious to slamdunk those who still wish to speak the Absolute Truth as His Divine Grace has given it to us, trying to shut them up, and often due to simple mysogenism. It is a good example of what you are explaining. Some of us, believe it or not, joined for the right reasons and are more sick and tired of the abusive demonic structure that developed than any fool who wants to bander about accusations like 'brainwashed' 'zombies' and so on can even begin to imagine or understand. But these envious souls cannot see the Truth.

 

I agree that to present a distortion and to further distort with a show of false humility is despicable. But I also think people do these things in lesser degrees and are much less guilty, and I would view such persons as still on the path of true knowledge. If the fan is unplugged, the blades keep going around, but it's eventual complete stop is inevitable. A sincere soul, however, will accept challenges to his/her 'pet' ideas when shown to carry these linguistically twisted ideas. An envious person will instead react with indignation and sulking and try to character assassinate the opposition instead of looking within to see if something needs to be adjusted, a weed or two pulled, and some real humility entertained. I think it is hard for all of us, and we can all make mistakes without being condemned, but some who keep the plug in the fan and try to pretend otherwise, those are the real enemies of the soul. And the use of linguistics to cover this up is just what you say it is.

 

And that brings me to what in my opinion is your most important point right now, and that is the fact that to say nothing can be as deplorable as to speak miscon-truths. Double meaning intended.

 

YS,

Madhavi-devi dasi

 

 

Sirla Prabhupada brought Krsna to the western world, making His Holy Name familiar in every town and village. The Hare Krsna's became household knowledge everywhere, due to his efforts and the extending efforts of his followers. In fact, Harinam Sankirtan appears in numerous Hollywood movies as part of our culture, solely due to the efforts of Srila Prabhupada. Thus he is qualified as world acarya, proven by this external manifestation of Lord Caitanya's empowerment, and any who follow in his wake can be understood to be exhaulted to the degree they revere and emulate his passtimes and follow his footsteps. Thus, those who speak against him and his transcendental explainations and conclusions, they are the sectarean ones. Those who try to minimize his great unrivalled transcendental feet, they are the sectarean ones. Those who try to cloud the Absolute Truth he disseminated, they are the sectarean ones. They are the envious ones. They are the ones who CANNOT deliver transcendental knowledge of Krsna, or the potency of His Holy Name.

[This message has been edited by M-dd (edited 10-04-2001).]

Originally posted by JRdd:

Can there be more postive inputs to this thread? Heckling is the same old same old. I am certain that was not Ram's intention in starting this thread. I am trying to give positive contributions, as in the debating example of Lord Caitanya, above. If you don't like me, kindly try to control yourselves for the sake of this discussion. Please. I am asking politely.

Trouble here, Jayaradhe prabhu, is that some here have only one agenda, to squelch truth and Truth. They are pitiable and they are envious.

Valaya's continued attempts to attack your words here, and elsewhere, only show himself up, not you. And Satyaraj's foolish cheering of him is stooping low even for him.

For every action there is a reaction. The man who raped my 14yr old virgin daughter has become paralyzed from the neck down, he can't rape another little girl. Be warned, I say to fools, especially fools guilty of mysogenism against Srila Prabhupada's daughters and granddaughters. To create such offenses is to curse oneself.

Valaya have a care, you spout out your intimacy with Radharani, yet you can't even conceive the extent of Her mercy that is already embodied in this saintly poster who is benedicting us all with her association. You on this other forum? You are not a Prabhupadanuga, that is the only qualification there. No, you don't qualify, and why would you want to qualify as his follower when you are very outspoken about NOT being his follower?

I'm happy to see that she is happily unaffected by your invalidating attempts to shut her up, your mysogeny. She reminds me of the kid who is unafraid of the neighboring bullies cuz he knows his father is watching over him. Jayaradhe knows that Srila Prabhupada is watching over her, his beloved daughter, and with that love of his is included Radharani's mercy, something you are not familiar with.

Now, speaking of debate, I think I'll start a new thread to not go any further off this thread's topic than it has already been veered by these envious retorts.

Dear prabhu,

Intelligent question, but the proof of the pudding is in the taste, not the belief.

If someone gives you Krsna, then you know who to listen to ABOUT Krsna, it is that simple. If someone can give you Krsna, that someone knows Krsna.

Srila Prabhupada gave us all Krsna. Those of us who have accepted, have also met Krsna, and we therefore know who to listen to to learn more and more about Krsna. Once you taste transcendence, you don't ever have to be fooled again, or depend on any blind faith or mundane belief system.

Try accepting Krsna's causeless mercy, you also can taste the pudding and all your doubts(material dellusion) will dissipate, as mine did long ago.

Hope this helps, M-d.d.

Originally posted by sin_patas:

my question is this:

 

isn't belief (in and of itself), a form of attachment to material existence?

 

i will formulate an example: if i chant the maha-mantra, then there is an implicit assumption that i believe Lord Caitanya is Krsna himself, and therefore i follow his advice.

 

now, the question about Lord Caitanya's divinity is not what i aim to prove/disprove. my concern is actual act of belief itself.

 

is not the act of believing a form of material attachment in and of itself? if i believe something to be true, then it is my own ego that is believing, hoping for something to be true.

 

even if i believe the identity of God to be one or another, or i believe that one scripture is more accurate than another, is it not still belief (and therefore, attachment)?

 

is not all material attachment what we should strive to get away from?

To make some historical sense of how this clicqueshness of ignoring guests happened, devotees who joined in 75, maybe earlier, were never allowed to preach. They took us on sankirtana and if we met someone interested and started sharing our personal feelings for Krsna, as His Divine Grace wanted, we were interrupted and shamed. Gradually this crippled the sparks of sankirtana spirit in the hearts of many a devotee. We were also NOT ALLOWED on harinam, despiter repeated begging to get them to let us go. We, of course, being the 'sankirtan' devotees, whose fire of Krsna consciousness was exploited by the leaders to increase their bank accounts. It was only years later we learned this about them though.

You may say that's no excuse, and sure, I agree, but consider what happens to a child when you 'break their spirit', as the old puritanicals believed was for the development of higher moralistic living. No, such broken persons become mysogenists, tyrants, addicts and even criminals. Often they keep it hidden in the family, so it's only nowadays when things are being scrutinized, that we are aware of the preponderance of these types of sins of the past.

I remember too when I had little kids at the Manor, a temple self-proclaimed as a brahmacari temple. It took all I had to get to the temple, and I wasn't capable of activity at the temple, nor could I watch my kids properly if I were to take up the preaching. Occasionally Krsna let opportunities fall in my lap, and I did my utmost to make use of them, but being crippled inside, I don't think anything I could say was ever helpful to the guests I met. I didn't believe in myself anymore, and my belief in Krsna and Srila Prabhupada was more suppressed internally, than expressed through the surface bliss of preaching.

I was in the UK too, at the Manor, and confirm also of the deplorable attitude their. When my kids were little, I so wished that it wasn't such a ridiculous effort needed to get them through the 'prasadam yuga', keep them happy and engaged, and be part of the activities. I remember there was much hatred focussed on the kids, much. Daily when it was just devotees, and on guest days too. Well, the solution was so simple and I effected it. We arranged, after much 'political' opposition, that the women and kids come in and sit down at one set of tables and be served while the line continue for the single women. I personally organized and did most of the serving. It was easier to control my own kids this way, sitting them down and serving them with the rest, then to try to keep them happy in a long line.

Well, this lasted about a week. It's success was undeniable, but the brahmacarini's watched us and I could see the envy in their eyes. Thus is was stopped, as well as the order and sanity of it. And by the by, for the record, we invited the guests with children to sit down too and served them as well. In fact I was so excited cuz this was the best 'preaching' opportunity to come my way in years.

Anyhow it was stopped due to envy, what can be said?

Another thing about the Manor is that, opposed to Srila Prabhupada's desires, it has been turned into a Hindu temple, celebrating the festivals that the guests want celebrated, and the festivals Srila Prabhupada established, even Janmastami, are moved to weekend days to make them guest celebrations, not worship of Krsna. It is all based on money, completely, and the temple is even run by Hindu-devotees, devotees completely ignorant of any of Srila Prabhupada's original intentions.

I haven't been there since 1994, but from what I've heard, the temple has just become ever more fascist. One I know to be a violent wife abuser is in charge of security, and thugs work for him. It is worse than sad, the pain of watching it in person was more than I could bear.

And as for cliques, I also never knew 'cliquish' devotees till moving to England in the early eighties. The strange thing is that the 'incrowd', who sat and gossiped hatefully about normal people, influenced and controlled a significant portion of the society, was comprised of American women, guess they didn't make it in the American high schools and had to spend their adult life trying to be 'the incrowd'. This was so unbelievable to me at the time, I had NEVER encountered devotees like this before. These bullies were carrying a lot of power in the community, and definitely had something to do with the gradual social de-growth that you witness. Sad sad sad, I had to flee it in the end, hide, give up wearing saris even, to disidentify with this degraded temple community.

Some will criticize me here for 'criticizing'. Personally I'm sick of the untruths and injustices hidden under the cloak of 'don't criticize'.

Haribol Audarya lila prabhu! Dandavatts! I much appreciate your gentlemanly approach. I accept your answer that you were not pointing at me. I am glad to let go of it too. I wish to continue this discourse if you have a mind, and feel it is now going in a positive direction. Thanks again for all your input. I will comment on a few things you said now.

Originally posted by Audarya lila:

...I was simply trying to change the focus of the discussion and stop the abuse that was going on in the name of stopping the abuse - does that make sense?

Yes, certainly. But I also do not see that confronting abuse can be called abusing back. As Suryaz has so intelligently explained, silence has its own ominous possibilities. So I speak up as Supersoul moves me, offering always the results up to Krsna, for His pleasure, even my own personal suffering.

You are certainly right that it is difficult for anyone to have complete empathy with others without having tread the same path that they have. I truly feel for all souls that are being abused and cheated - and that is all of us until we choose to take a different path.

True, and only a pure unalloyed devotee can be completely empathic with another no matter how close the experiences match or not. But I am not personally looking for empathy, I'm looking for understanding and admittance to certain historical truths that have been traditionally misunderstood and denied to the detriment of society. Yes everyone is exploited and abused in the material world, in the absolute sense, but I wish to separate the concept to the relative sense due to their being a vast difference to the everyday give and take, which will include some fighting and hurtfulness as well as some loving and sharing, and out and out viscious abuse, which is a very mis-understood phenomenon, and a very different matter. I am educated on this 'pop-psychology' both through education and reading, as well as direct experience of myself and others. As for the dismissing of the entire field of knowledge into the label 'pop-psychology', I retort that in the Nectar of Instruction it is clearly stated that 'one must learn to culture nescience with knowledge side by side'. It has been Krsna's arrangements that led my life down this particular path of study and I wish to share the bits of realized knowledge I now personally carry, as I equally wish eagerly to hear from all of you all the bits of realizations I'm sure you carry many of too.

I do appreciate personal stories and I think, as I said before, that there is certainly something to gain by opening our hearts to each other and sharing our tragedies.

Me too, and I hope that our sharing will increase and deepen as we go along making our individual attempts to connect on a real level, and that more and more people will also benedict us with sharing of their hearts too.

I just don't think we need to continue them and continue the abuse by abusing others.

Again, confronting abuse, standing up to a bully, should not be called 'counter-abusing'. Only abuse should be called abuse. I won't stoop to continued entanglement over my chastizement of another by challenging you to state which of the above you consider my actions. I stand by my actions and I know that my heart is true, as is my sharing. That's all I can do, and all anyone can be expected to do.

I am truly saddened that you felt I was attacking you, it couldn't possibly have been farther from my mind and my intentions.

I am truly sorry for saddening you. Truly. Please don't give it another thought, I fully accept your stated intentions and won't give it another thought either. You are an exemplary gentleman and worthy of my praise.

The golden rule is so simple and so eloquent and so difficult to put into practice - do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That certainly includes treating harshness with gentleness, meanness with kindness, accusations with praise.

It also includes necessary chastizements, confrontations and challenges. Maybe I come off as more confrontative than many others, but I believe in the value of it, and it's use as a vehicle to open up deeper relating and understanding. I also don't believe in falsely taking the humble stance, as in 'jai prabhu', but feeling inside anger or dislike at someone's injustice. It's the way I am, we're all different. Even when I was still a bhaktin my godsisters pushed me forward to speak for them, and it happened over the years enough for me to get used to being the one to stick my neck out, take the risk, challenge the untruth or misapplication.

I personally don't believe that the answer to abuse is to become an abuser oneself. This is the natural egotistical response and one often feels 'justified' in behaving in such a fashion - but in reality it just furthers the cycle and perpetuates it.

Yes, definitely, when it is based on egotism. I don't consider anything I've said here to be based on egotism. In some minute way I am always involved, and sometimes in bigger ways too of course, with the conditioning remaining in my own slowing down fan, but I am not immersed in these discussions for bolstering my own ego, and when I believe I have made an ego mistake, I happily wish to know it and apologize. But sometimes minor infractions in wording lead others to assume that it was only based on ego and attack for no good reason. I don't deny I have false ego operating intertwined with the real purpose of my soul, but I also know for a fact that I am speaking honestly from my heart, and I don't come down hard on someone if I have not confirmed in more ways than one that I am not unfairly judging or egotistically counter-abusing.

This takes away our own dignity and puts us on a par with those who choose to behave in that fashion.

Yes, and we know we've blown it sometimes simply by our embarassment of other's reactions. We also have the capability of knowing when we are speaking from mundane motivation and when we are speaking true, if we are habitually honest with ourselves.

Anyway, forgive me if you were pained by my words and trust me that they were not meant to hurt, but rather to heal.

There is nothing to forgive, but thank you for caring. I wasn't pained either, as, like I have stated, I am not saying these things from the platform of emotion.

I spoke them to all readers of this thread in the hopes that it may make us all think a little more before posting derogatory statements meant to demean and belittle others.

Yes I understand your intent now, and appreciate very much how you've helped significantly in hopefully turning this thread back to healthy exchanges. Please forgive me for misunderstanding your intent.

I also hoped that it would bring Krsna into the picture and I thank Babhru for taking the que.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

I appreciate this sentiment too, but for myself, Krsna was never out of the picture.

Thanks again for all your inspiration, even-minded and gentlemanly input and for your honest caring of other persons, including my humble self.

Aspiring to become servant of the servants of the vaisnavas,

Madhavi-devi dasi

Originally posted by dasanudas:

Excuse me for posting these couple of posts mixed in with these other posts on 'sexism and related topics' there is absolutely no relationship of the divine with some of these personal experiences so if it is possible I will try to edit my contributions off the thread some how.

Dandavats to the ladies and gentlemen Madhavi long time no hear How are you and yours. Gotta fly now.

Haribol Mr. Dasanudas! We are all fine thank you very much. I've loved your input except that you're not giving us much detailed expression from your poetic heart. Always happy to read your equi-poised inputs, please don't edit any of them. Give us more instead!

YS,

M-d.d.

Originally posted by Maitreya:

Thank you M-dd.I'm now convinced.It's full immersion for me.

Don't mention it! In case, however, it wasn't clear in my post, the reverence Dasanudas describes is also an essential part of it. Don't want anyone to get the wrong idea and take the reactions on my head!

Originally posted by Audarya lila:

Must the cycle continue?

Certainly it will continue with continued denial, a denial which it uh is my hope to chip holes in by stating historical truth. I sure wish you could see how that was my intention.

Who will be brave enough to end the cycle of abuse?

I for one, and many other brave women I know.

We are not these bodies, remember?

 

I suspect we all have stories of abuse to share and it may be useful if the intent is to educate and avoid finding ourselves in those situations again.

I am highly insulted if you have assumed that my intentions weren't just that. I can then only assume that you read my words quite negligently and inattentively or didn't read them at all. Either way, you appear to be judging me falsely, and you are apparently pointing the finger at me as I am the one who has shared the FACTS of historical evil abuse, and I am the one who has owned up to having been a victim. Please note the past tense.

Suryaz made a good point about the fact that it is the lust we have in our own hearts that 'seduces' us when we see material forms. What about victim mentality?

And I made a very good explaination of why the 'victim' must see abuse for what it is and remove him/herself from the entangling conditioning of the toxic abuse and shaming of another.

It's the environment, it's that abusive man, the abusive woman, etc. All places emphasis outside oneself and blaming the 'other'.

 

... We all have choices to make with regard to how we will act and react in any given situation.

But why ignore the fact that the role of submission and chastity lead many women to innocently accept horrific abuses? As one of these women, I had to learn how to remove myself, and my only purpose in repeating history in it's real context is about going beyond victim mentality by understanding what abuse is in order to take the road of disentangling one's self, as opposed to sinking further into victim mentality. I do agree that the mentality must be defeated/given up, but didn't you glean that from my post written before valaya's put-down post?

In a very real sense no one can cheat you except yourself, and no one can abuse you except yourself. We are devotees and we are called to see all things, good and bad, as divine providence and keep our focus on serving Sri Guru in all circumstances.

And again, through misunderstandings of 'surrender', many women allowed themselves to be seriously abused, seeing it all as divine providence. Fine to see it as divine providence, but you have to come to the point of learning the tools of removing yourself before your soul is killed to the point of loosing one's whole vision of spiritual life. Why let the chains of dellusion pull us back down in the name of divine providence, when the tools are all there in the Bhagavad-gita AsItIs to begin with? I see no sense in that and only sense in finding out the phenomenon and removing oneself from it. As a survivor, I speak to victims mostly. Abusers don't want to hear anything anyway. Perhaps non-victim/non-abusers can't actually grasp what it is all about.

Devotees are compassionate by nature and gentle. Physical and mental abuse is not a part of devotion and those who engage in such practices should be avoided and respected from a distance - as Vidura did when he encountered such a situation.

It's pretty hard to avoid your husband, whom you have incidently made vows to keep which you don't want to break. I have personally known many women in this terribly painful dilemma, and the only way out is out, which means breaking those vows, and to come to that point one must clearly understand what abuse is and why it is the only way. No one who doesn't understand these things, on the level I'm talking, not on the parrot/scripture level, should make statements of what victims should do. One has to put divine providence into context if one is to become disentangled from the chains that bind, or one will end up down the victim path so far as to not know up from down anymore. It actually does violence to society to glibly assume the solution is so simplistic. It amounts to what Suryaz is trying to convey, a linguistic barometer for evil persons to use to back up their abusive behaviour. This is a very important point, as the results of ISKCON will show an honest look at the history and how so many husbands used 'quotes' to suppress the natural instincts of the 'victim'. And let me say something else on this. I was married for five years before I was a devotee, and I was never abused. So there was something that happened between my original karma and my devotee karma. And it happened for a reason, yes by divine providence, but for complex reasons, not just to purify my anartha riddled heart, but to teach me the value of choosing the higher istructions, for instance,'accept whatever is favourable to your Krsna consciousness, reject whatever is unfavourable', instead of lower understandings, ie. submitting to my husband, abuse included, in the hope of pleasing my spiritual master.

If you are struck or abused verbally or physically you can choose to engage in the same behavior in retaliation or you can choose to follow the path etched out for us by Lord Chaitanya and his followers.

 

We are human and all of us make mistakes. Let us see the good in others and cultivate the good in ourselves.

 

Hare krsna

 

All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranaga!!!

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

We have to discriminate too. It's very easy to see the good in an abuser and continue accepting abuse. This path leads one down into more maya though, and it is my express intent to shed light on this fact. Perhaps a pure unalloyed devotee is in no such danger, but on the path of devotional service one must learn to discriminate. You also speak of 'leaving' the abuser, and I'm trying to wake folks up to the fact of how difficult that is to do when one does not want to break his/her vows of marriage, and the principles of Krsna consciousness, and especially for women, whom have traditionally been serious in following Srila Prabhupada's instructions, including submissiveness and chastity.

Aspiring to be of service to the servants of the servants,

Madhavi-devi dasi

[This message has been edited by M-dd (edited 09-28-2001).]

Originally posted by valaya:

 

___________

 

So when is a post not a post? When it takes up an entire PAGE! One big difference between men and women is that men prefer solving problems to talking about them! I know, it makes you feel better, but it drives us NUTS!

 

Alright already! I never abused women, in fact they abused me! O.K.? As for these so-called `men` you speak of, I certainly would like to speak with them and even meet them. Not so much to discuss though, but so we could SOLVE the problem! I say we because I know other men here would feel the same way and want to act, not talk, talk, talk ad nauseum.

 

This thread, which appears to have killed the `relationships` thread it split off from, is entitled `sexism`, not `MALE sexism`. The topic of abuse by ISKCON husbands is another separate thing altogether. Yes, I realize everything is related, but we mere men can't deal with it coming at us all mixed up like this. Our minds and emotions don't function like yours! Somehow you manage to lump everything into one big indigestible chunk, as evidenced by such enormously long posts, confusing the hell out of us; then we get beaten about the head with that same heavy chunk for not listening enough to understand correctly or, God help us, trying to offer some explanation of our own personal problems with women.

 

Maybe we understand more than you think, after all we're here, are we not? Try to appreciate that one point at least, otherwise you'll end up `discussing` with each other with no one to help sort out the muddled mess. Yes, we approach things differently, which enables the sexes to compliment one another. Hear that, prabhus? COMPLIMENT one another!

 

Please consider what I've said here deeply. Thank you. valaya RR

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 09-28-2001).]

You want to ACT? Great, start acting, put your actions where your talkingmouth is, and do something concrete about all the unprotected women and children who are fallout victims from the type of abuse I have given testimony of. You want to criticize me for giving this testimony, simply means you wish to push the truth further under the bed, like my kids used to do with their clothes and toys when I told them to clean their room. Magically the same mess reappeared the next day, cuz that trick just does not work for more than a temporary bandaid effect.

Far more intelligent it is to write a long thoughtful post than pick it up and repeat the whole thing just to criticize the length, and assassinate the character of the writer, with barely a reference to the points made. You are so stupid you can't understand the simple content? Valaya, I'm surprised at you.

You wish to talk to these men guilty of criminal violence? Go to ISKON, you will find lots of them. Maybe you can get into their game with them, they're always ready to take on new boys into their club. Seems to me you just might be a little more abusive than you'd like everyone here to believe, mr. high and mighty who pretends to be a 'unifier' whilst constantly character assassinating those whose arguments you can't defeat, but whose conclusions you feel threatened by.

You want to solve problems, not talk? First of all, this is a place of words, so to criticize talking here is ludicrous. Second of all you criticize that which you obviously know little about. What does that make you, oh unifying one? And finally, since when isn't talking about a problem a vehicle for solving it?

You are guilty in this post of mysogeny, and I don't care who attacks me for saying that. I guess Suryaz is more right about this here than I wished to believe. I continue to wish, always, to find non-mysogenistic men, stubbornly believing they must exist, but the likes of you always narrows the possibility just a little bit more.

In the light of your repeated attacks on me, on both these threads, the other one containing your whining character assassinations of me over something said elsewhere, as well as your allusions to 'something secret' that you could not speak of, as if it would EMBARASS me and all whilst I wasn't even posting on or reading this forum, I simply find it not at all credible to hear you say you did/do not abuse women. Your mysogenistic remarks to Jayradhe were also quite shocking, and to her what had she ever done to you? She has spoken many kind appreciative words to you, words which I personally had to choke on. I accused you of something, so fine, mr. cornered rat, strike out, but she did not, so your attack on her is even more mysogenistic. You are a sickening excuse for a human being. Unfortunately for you, I'm not a victim anymore, and you gonna strike out at me, I may ignore it for a while, but you go too far, and I'll strike back with the power of years of austerities and spiritual evolution behind me. I do this on behalf of women everywhere, especially women who are giving their lives to Krsna, who are mysogenized daily by your sort. I desire always to disseminate truth, and this is in Krsna's service. You know Him, He's the little blue boy you prefer to ignore in your impersonal obsession with Srimati Radharani.

And while you're enjoying your pitty pills, please, do tell us, how did these hapless women abuse you? Only an idiot cannot see the genuine abuse of the cases I cited, let's hear your story, but you can't give us any actual truthful evidence, can you?

So you think you can solve the problem of violent abusers? You can't seem to control your own anger, which is often in the form of passive anger here. You obviously understand nothing about the subject matter, so all you can do is criticize one who has not only knowledge of the phenomenon and history of it, but extended education about it. You don't want to understand, typical of abusive personalities. This isn't about my feelings here. I posted whilst residing in the position of genuine intelligence and realization, and the motive of revealing TRUTH on Krsna's behalf in the service of Srila Prabhupada, whose beloved daughters have been hideously abused in many cases in a societal structure that supported abuse via the medium of mis-application of the transcendental knowledge His Divine Grace benedicted the world with, the violent misuse of linguistics that Suryaz is trying so hard to blow the whistle on. You can't handle it, grow up.

You want to accuse me going off the topic, 'sexism and related topics', well if you can't get it that mysogenism falls directly under 'related topics', what can be said for your stupidity? A stupidity born of DENIAL.

Valaya speaks>>"Yes, I realize everything is related, but we mere men can't deal with it coming at us all mixed up like this. Our minds and emotions don't function like yours!"

'Mere men', what a load of false humility sarcastic bullhoggery. So your mind functions on what, the animal platform? Cornered mr. rat, criticize those whose intelligence you can't begin to comprehend. You're gonna solve lots of problems that way, sure you are.

Valaya speaks>>"Maybe we understand more than you think, after all we're here, are we not? Try to appreciate that one point at least, otherwise you'll end up `discussing` with each other with no one to help sort out the muddled mess."

If you understood, first of all you wouldn't be complaining about the indigestibility of that which you can't face. As for your presence here, you can get lost and never be heard from again for all I care. As for the other men, let them speak for themselves. And as for your sexist 'muddled mess' comment, the truth is I know quite a few women who have sorted out their lives, post-abuse trauma, with the association of mere women. So go crawl into your little hidey hole and keep lying to yourself all you want, no one will be the lesser. I, for one, do not bend or break from the onslaughts of mysogenism, nor do I miss the association of mysogenists.

Valaya says>>"! Somehow you manage to lump everything into one big indigestible chunk, as evidenced by such enormously long posts, confusing the hell out of us;

Well if I've lumped everything into that post, I've accomplished quite a feat of concise streamlined writing, not the opposite, and the post is quite short for having done that. Thanks for the compliment. Your confusion stems from you material dellusion. I have focussed on a very important problem, and I have also given the only solution available for victims of mysogenism, but you, knowing nothing on the matter, except your own out of control senses and anger, cannot drink in the knowledge. Your choice, I dont care, I'm used to men who don't want to know the truth. If even one victim has read my words and been inspired to remove themselves from the chains, then my effort is more than worth it. I have no respect for men who will not honestly accept the truth of these matters. Live in your own little hell of a mind, no loss to me. You're such a fony and such a sahajiya, not any kind of desirable association. I see through you, and you despise me for it, so what? You're not the first, and you won't be the last. Thanks for showing anyone who reads you with their intelligence untainted where you are really at, mr. megalomania. You've done readers a service, if they have sincere desire to see the truth.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Originally posted by suryaz:

Originally posted by M-dd:

...

And that is not about putting blame for one's own set of conditioned being on another person, rather it is a process to disentangle oneself from entangling association.

......................................

Suryaz:Yes Madhavi I agree with you on this point.

But where to begin? I say we nip it in the bud.

I do believe you have the best of intentions in trying to nip it in the bud, and I agree in principle. But I know from experience that that will sometimes only draw more attacks. Look at that horrible drawing that a big mysogenist put JR's name to! I once called that guy a mysogenist(which is fully confirmed by this awful act), in the same mood of nipping it in the bud, but in another discussion. It accomplished nothing but a horrific spew of mysogenism being directed at me, so powerful that I succombed to it temporarily. It accomplished nothing else. I think you might be making the same mistake here, unless you have personal knowledge of this devotee and/or his ex-fiance, in which case perhaps a public forum isn't the place to vent your feelings about it, but otherwise, if you do not know either of them personally, you do not really know how much blame he meant to put on her for his own behaviour. What I've found out with a lot, and I mean a lot, of men is that they actually believe, on the evidence of their being attracted to us(women), that it(their attraction) is coming from us(women) and our desire for the pleasure of their having sex with us. Even 'karmi' women are less interested in the sex act than men, and that is a well-known fact. I've learned that this is usually just an over-puffed-up male ego, related to their obsession with macho-ness, which they falsely believe centers on their sexual 'performance'. I've learned this the hard way by what felt like betrayal to me by several male devotee friends, who all thought it was coming from me, and myself never considering to entertain such an idea of intimacy with them, due to their being married, and to friends of mine as well. This phenomenon happened to me on three clear-cut occasions and I had to accept that this was the problem. I had set about trying to find out what it was that certain men became so angry at me about all the time. It turned out that simply because, due to my shyness and/or integrity(ie if they were married), I never reciprocated their subtle sex flirtations. Go figure. The other thing they always got angry about was their wives telling me about their beatings and stranglings and rapes and other assorted abuses.

Suryaz says, "It begins with misuse of language as the accepted norm. I do no understand why so may are against this, or the elucidation of it. What is wrong with establishing truth?"

I wholeheartedly agree to your intent of establishing the truth, but I dont think that abuse simply comes from language misuse. Like when I was 8 months pregnant and asked my ex to carry my 60# two yr old to mangal aratrika and he threw a rocking chair at me, missed luckily, but with such force as to smash it literally to pieces, the only connection with language was my request for aid. This kind of abuse is about rage, and it is rampant, very rampant.

Still, having said that, there is definitely the phenomenon of misquoting Srila Prabhupada in order to support abusive behaviour, and on that I agree totally with you that it is extremely important to nip such misuse of language in the bud. So I guess I agree and disagree overall on that point.

Originally posted by Suryaz: Moreover, when abuse (in whatever form, be it action, language, etc. etc.) becomes the accepted norm not only does toxic shame intensifies but also the whole society knows only hell (distortion) as truth.

YES! Wholeheartedly I agree. It is a historical fact that ISKCON became a hell to live in in many places and many ways.

Originally posted by Suryaz:

---M-d.d. said>>There is a subtle but all-important difference between humility and false humility.

 

Suryaz: Exactly my point. To use anything of distorted origin and promote it as truth is bad enough – but then to present it as presented with humbleness, this brings into play distortion of the most deplorable sort.

Yes, true, but I still don't see the extent of your accusation as being based in a blatant case of this. I understand totally your reacting strongly to the idea of his fiance seducing him, but by his actual wording you could also take the meaning that he was saying that he was seduced by the material energy, which, imho, is a valid statement.

Originally posted by M-dd:

The first arises from spiritual advancement, the latter from shame.

......................................

Suryaz:Yes but shame in other ways also - shame to society and to those who accept it as truth.

I think maybe your point is divergent from the point I was making. I agree that many accepted shaming out-of-context quotes as true for themselves, and thus continued their entanglement, and society as a whole, ISKCON-style, also gave free reign to abusers due to these mis-truths full of toxic shame. I'm not sure if that's what you mean here.

Originally posted by Suryaz: Likewise those who are interested in upholding abuse, injustice distortion degradation etc., etc. at its point of entry VIZ lingo-symbolic confusion etc., etc. shifting the gaze etc., etc. are also as you put it [Madhavi “nothing more than a jailer for the material energy,”] and should be rejected. It si simply WRONG to support abuse at any level.

I agree. And we saw historically in the most blatant example, how this foolish 'linguistic' support of abuse supported even the most horrific abuses of rape of children. Without so much of a supporting structure, these thugs would have been rooted out, so in that way, I wholly agree with you. But the misuse of language didn't actually cause the rapes, it just served to allow it to go on so long unchecked.

Originally posted by M-dd:

But the sad history is that these very women have been categorically blamed for the resultant disastrous volume of ISKCON divorces, lack of submission and lack of chastity being cited, in the name of Srila Prabhupada. The idea, as Srila Prabhupada presented it, was supposed to be that the woman benefits by submitting to her husband because he lifts her up spiritually. I cannot say it enough times that there is an extremely large number of godsisters who did submit to their husbands, only to be dragged down, and I'm not talking about dragged down through sex, which is an oversimplistic idea, but dragged down by abuse, by toxic shaming, usually accompanied by physical violence or the threat of physical violence. That is not to blame the woman's conditioning on the man, rather it is to enlighten society to the fact that when a woman leaves such a situation it is a move on her part up the ladder of spiritual evolution, not down.

.......................................

Suryaz:Why? Because of use (misuse) of language.

I'm unclear here if you are blaming the actual abuse on the misuse of language? I can't agree with that, but I do agree that it was greatly enhanced. I remember being a new devotee on the way to sankirtana. One godsister spoke irreverently to her husband and he turned around and attacked her and started beating her. I was then told by another godsister present that Srila Prabhupada said, 'there are three things a man can beat, a dog, a mrdanga and his wife'. I was shocked and I found this very bewildering, but today, I will only agree that if these exact words were actually said by His Divine Grace, they were meant as in, a man can, cuz he can get away with it, not because it was ok. This is a good example of the misuse you're talking about, but I'm certain that this guy would have beat his wife that day regardless. It is conditioned into the abuser to abuse, and the misquoting was simply a vehicle to justify, and in that way, yes, increase their evil behaviour, as it went unchecked.

Suryaz said>

Yes Madhavi I certainly believe chivalry was dead in the movement. Women and children especially were abused. Some men also – but the culture gave more privileges to men and the abuse was less severe. But abuse was throughout given the accepted norms I cannot see how 99% if not all of the membership did not suffer. What is more shocking is the continued denial of abuse.

Yes, I'm picking up some pretty heavy denial on this thread even. Too bad. Thus the cycle of conditioning continues.

Suryaz said>

Glad you put this bit in.

 

Madhavi: PS. It is important to note that in the age-old expression, 'it takes two to tango', sometimes the one is an abuser and the two is a victim. And in such a case the responsibility for the tango itself is not equal. To simplify what I mean, let's just use the analogy of rape, what intelligent person will say it takes two to tango for violent rape, giving equal responsibility to raper and rapee? Similarly, in any severe abuse, the abuse itself is SOLELY AND ENTIRELY the responsibility of the abuser, and the responsibility of the abusee becomes simply a responsibility to remove oneself from the abusive situation, as stated before, from the entanglement that it fosters.

 

Suryaz: Furthermore, what of the rape of the intelligence through the acceptance of abusive language to as a mean to judge/justify or even conceptualise a given situation?

 

How can one aspire for any kind of devotion where socially accepted abuse is the norm?

 

Suryaz

Very good point. What gets me is the incorrect use of language that leads to the false understanding that it was some kind of equal thing, like a fight, when the truth is there was a very insidious evil of abuse growing out of control like a raging cancer. I find that men who aren't abusive seem to feel threatened by women talking about mysogenistic abuses, and I take it that they don't have it in them so can't fathom the truth of it, thus they will say things like, oh, let's hear what the abuser has to say about this, [yeah right, he's got some good lies for ya]. I know two devotee men who each kicked his wife in the stomach while she was very pregnant. Each of them, and these guys didn't even know each other, claimed to know how to kick her without hurting the baby. Perhaps Valaya and others here would like to hear from these men? Or how about the one who raped his very sick wife in Vrndavan, and left her to raise the kid alone? Then there's the guy who was strangling his wife and when the baby woke up and saw started screaming at her for making him see it! And that is just a small sampling of the true stories I have been told by the recipients, not by second- or third-hand gossip. So if you guys who think these husbands have some valid points, you're just simply wrong about that. And if you won't hear the truth, then I will have to agree with Suryaz on all points and stop my generosity of benefit of doubt.

Originally posted by Maitreya:

...

Found it funny also as I have heard stories of these monster turtles that live in Radha-kund and had become resigned to just pouring some water over my head.

Unasked for advice, Maitreya, take full bath in Her Divine Grace! You will never regret it. Just don't go swimming or in other ways express irreverence. Srila Prabhupada used to let devotees take full bath, but they began horsing around, so he put a stop to it for this disrespect.

As for the turtles, they are quite big enough to see and avoid, and I've never heard of anyone being bitten by one myself. I took the advice of an older godsister on bathing in Radha Kunda, her words, 'if there is offense, the offense is temporary, but the spiritual benefit is eternal'. That suited me and I've never regretted it. I can call up the experience of being surrounded in Her Divine Embrace any time I think about it, ecstacy is there. Follow your heart.

And I wish you a great and spiritually fullfilling and enlivening trip to the Holy Dhama.

Hare Krsna prabhus! Very interesting to see the dips and turns of this thread.

One thing I think needs pointing out is that until pure unalloyed devotion fully blossoms in our hearts, it is necessary, and in fact our duty, to discriminate. 'Accept whatever is favourable for your Krsna consciousness and reject whatever is unfavourable.' That includes people. And that is not about putting blame for one's own set of conditioned being on another person, rather it is a process to disentangle oneself from entangling association.

Abuse is entangling. That is simply a fact. When one is abused, s/he is derided with many untrue accusations, toxic shaming, which the abusee eventually takes onboard, simply by dint of repetitive input of a negative kind. This causes the person to drown in his/er own anarthas, becoming stagnant in the quicksand of self-loathing, not become purified of them.

There is a subtle but all-important difference between humility and false humility. The first arises from spiritual advancement, the latter from shame. Toxic shame is an interesting thing to look at in this regard. Toxic shame arises from need for perfection. That very perfection is a quality only God/Krsna, or His unalloyed devotees, can emulate. So to have an addictive need to be perfect in some way is none other than rooted in enviousness of Krsna, wanting to be Krsna. This deeply rooted anartha is fed by toxic shame, contributed by others as well as by the self. In fact, accepting it from others is part of the addiction. When we take in the toxic shaming of another person, we use it to beat on ourselves. Beating on ourselves with toxic shame is a futile excercise for we can't be perfect, thus it is an endless downward spiral. A spiral from which one must remove him/herself, if one is to ever have hope of removing the annartha's by the root. That is why it is so important to reckognize the difference between an honest chastisement, which is a benediction, and a toxic shaming chastisement, which is a vehicle for entanglement.

But this is not to put the blame for one's entanglement on another person, rather to reckognize what type of association simply reinforces one's own entanglement. One must learn to culture nescience along with knowledge side by side, per NoI. It is our very nature to accept another's input in order to keep us entangled, and that is where addiction comes in. And because it is actually, esoterically, addicting, that is the very reason it is so hard to remove oneself, like swimming upstream of a tidal wave.

Therefore it is very important for any person who experiences abuse to know what the abuse is, see it for what it is, in order to shed the chains of material entanglement that it entails. In the case of devotee women, it means that if the husband is an abuser, he is nothing more than a jailer for the material energy, and IN MOST CASES should be rejected as unfavourable for one's Krsna consciousness.

But the sad history is that these very women have been categorically blamed for the resultant disastrous volume of ISKCON divorces, lack of submission and lack of chastity being cited, in the name of Srila Prabhupada. The idea, as Srila Prabhupada presented it, was supposed to be that the woman benefits by submitting to her husband because he lifts her up spiritually. I cannot say it enough times that there is an extremely large number of godsisters who did submit to their husbands, only to be dragged down, and I'm not talking about dragged down through sex, which is an oversimplistic idea, but dragged down by abuse, by toxic shaming, usually accompanied by physical violence or the threat of physical violence. That is not to blame the woman's conditioning on the man, rather it is to enlighten society to the fact that when a woman leaves such a situation it is a move on her part up the ladder of spiritual evolution, not down.

This is a direct contrast to the socially cherished idea that the paramount important duty of a woman is to stick with her husband no matter what. It also defies the cherished social ignoreing of the fact that higher than this cherished duty is the axiom 'reject whatever is unfavourable for your Krsna consciousness'.

If y'all think I'm being sexist here by citing men as abusers, I'm not. The overwhelming fact of reality is that there has been a significant preponderance of this kind of abuse and I am simply citing it, as well as the need for the abusee to remove him/herself from the abuser. A very exhaulted pure devotee may not need to, but the ordinary soul usually does.

And I still have yet to hear even one devotee man admit that the vast majority of his godsisters did indeed take wholeheartedly and enthusiastically to the submissive role as His Divine Grace bade us to, and not only to husbands but to temple authorities as well.

Aspiring servant of the servants of the servants,

Madhavi-devi dasi

PS. It is important to note that in the age-old expression, 'it takes two to tango', sometimes the one is an abuser and the two is a victim. And in such a case the responsibility for the tango itself is not equal. To simplify what I mean, let's just use the analogy of rape, what intelligent person will say it takes two to tango for violent rape, giving equal responsibility to raper and rapee? Similarly, in any severe abuse, the abuse itself is SOLELY AND ENTIRELY the responsibility of the abuser, and the responsibility of the abusee becomes simply a responsibility to remove oneself from the abusive situation, as stated before, from the entanglement that it fosters.