nine9
-
Content Count
47 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by nine9
-
-
“Govardhana-puja 2003" by Swami B. V. Tripurari is now available from Audarya Darshan for only $14.95.
What is the theology that underlies the Gaudiya's worship of Mount Govardhana? How is it distinguished from aboriginal expressions of animism? How can apparently material objects become invested with spiritual emotion and thus rendered sacred? Learn the answers to these questions and fill your own heart with love for Sri Caintanya's ideal of Vraja bhakti: View Mount Govardhana through the eyes of Sri Caitanya's love by lending your eyes and ears to Swami B. V. Tripurari's ecstatic DVD discourse on Govardhana Puja.
To order the Govardhana-puja DVD, please visit www.swami.org/Merchant2/merchant.mvc or email your order to orders@swami.org.
-
My godsister assembled some quotes about SB 1.1.3 (nigama-kalpa-taror galitam phalam...). I thought I would share them here:
"In Sanskrit the parrot is also known as suka. When a ripened fruit is cut by the red beaks of such birds, its sweet flavor is enhanced. The Vedic fruit which is mature and ripe in knowledge is spoken through the lips of Srila Sukadeva Gosvami, who is compared to the parrot not for his ability to recite the Bhagavatam exactly as he heard it from his learned father, but for his ability to present the work in a manner that would appeal to all classes of men." (from purport of Srila Prabhupada)
SB 1.1.3
nigama-kalpa-taror galitam phalam
suka-mukhad amrta-drava-samyutam
pibata bhagavatam rasam alayam
muhur aho rasika bhuvi bhavukah
nigama -- the Vedic literatures; kalpa-taroh -- the desire tree; galitam -- fully matured; phalam -- fruit; suka -- Srila Sukadeva Gosvami, the original speaker of Srimad-Bhagavatam; mukhat -- from the lips of; amrta -- nectar; drava -- semisolid and soft and therefore easily swallowable; samyutam -- perfect in all respects; pibata -- do relish it; bhagavatam -- the book dealing in the science of the eternal relation with the Lord; rasam -- juice (that which is relishable); alayam -- until liberation, or even in a liberated condition; muhuh -- always; aho -- O; rasikah -- those who are full in the knowledge of mellows; bhuvi -- on the earth; bhavukah -- expert and thoughtful.
O expert and thoughtful men, relish Srimad-Bhagavatam, the mature fruit of the desire tree of Vedic literatures. It emanated from the lips of Sri Sukadeva Gosvami. Therefore this fruit has become even more tasteful, although its nectarean juice was already relishable for all, including liberated souls.
Srila Sridhara Maharaja's purport from Follow the Angels:
Krsna's vamsi, His flute, is also doing the same thing. In the highest place we find proper adjustment for our service. That is the sound. And Krsna's vamsi is also doing this through its sound. The sound gives impression, inspiration to anyone and everyone. "Come to my sweet service, engage yourself in my sweet service." That is the call of the flute of Krsna, and of Gayatri, Veda-mata. There in the Veda the same thing is said, and that is in the flute.
What is in the Veda, is in the flute. And in the middle there is also the Veda, Sruti, Vedanta, Bhagavatam. Nigama kalpa taror galitam phalam, Vyasadeva says in his introduction to Srimad Bhagavatam. What is the necessity of this new book? This is nigama kalpa taror galitam phalam. Nigama means Veda, and it is compared to a tree. And this Bhagavatam, the natural ripened fruit, comes of its own accord. It is not forced. Of its own accord, the tree gives fruit, and the fruit is ripe, and it is Bhagavatam. So, we drink the juice, bhagavatam rasam alayam muhur aho rasika bhuvi bhavukah.
If we have real thinking capacity, this normal hankering, we must come to drink this rasam. This is the natural product of the Veda-kalpataru. This gayatri ganat trayate. If we chant the Gayatri mantra we will be liberated, emancipated. The positive conception of liberation is svarupa-siddhi, self-determination. And in self-determination we must come in contact with Krsna in different rasas to get our assured and attached service. And thereby we can imbibe the real juice to make our life fulfilled. Our fulfillment is there. Otherwise, all our attempts are fruitless labor. We must only utilize our energy in the proper way, to make our lives successful.
Srila Prabhupada's SB purport:
In the two previous slokas it has been definitely proved that the Srimad-Bhagavatam is the sublime literature which surpasses all other Vedic scriptures due to its transcendental qualities. It is transcendental to all mundane activities and mundane knowledge. In this sloka it is stated that Srimad-Bhagavatam is not only a superior literature but is the ripened fruit of all Vedic literatures. In other words, it is the cream of all Vedic knowledge. Considering all this, patient and submissive hearing is definitely essential. With great respect and attention, one should receive the message and lessons imparted by the Srimad-Bhagavatam.
The Vedas are compared to the desire tree because they contain all things knowable by man. They deal with mundane necessities as well as spiritual realization. The Vedas contain regulated principles of knowledge covering social, political, religious, economic, military, medicinal, chemical, physical and metaphysical subject matter and all that may be necessary to keep the body and soul together. Above and beyond all this are specific directions for spiritual realization. Regulated knowledge involves a gradual raising of the living entity to the spiritual platform, and the highest spiritual realization is knowledge that the Personality of Godhead is the reservoir of all spiritual tastes, or rasas.
Every living entity, beginning from Brahma, the first-born living being within the material world, down to the insignificant ant, desires to relish some sort of taste derived from sense perceptions. These sensual pleasures are technically called rasas. Such rasas are of different varieties. In the revealed scriptures the following twelve varieties of rasas are enumerated: (1) raudra (anger), (2) adbhuta (wonder), (3) srngara (conjugal love), (4) hasya (comedy), (5) vira (chivalry), (6) daya (mercy), (7) dasya (servitorship), (8) sakhya (fraternity), (9) bhayanaka (horror), (10) bibhatsa (shock), (11) santa (neutrality), (12) vatsalya (parenthood).
The sum total of all these rasas is called affection or love. Primarily, such signs of love are manifested in adoration, service, friendship, paternal affection, and conjugal love. And when these five are absent, love is present indirectly in anger, wonder, comedy, chivalry, fear, shock and so on. For example, when a man is in love with a woman, the rasa is called conjugal love. But when such love affairs are disturbed there may be wonder, anger, shock, or even horror. Sometimes love affairs between two persons culminate in ghastly murder scenes. Such rasas are displayed between man and man and between animal and animal. There is no possibility of an exchange or rasa between a man and an animal or between a man and any other species of living beings within the material world. The rasas are exchanged between members of the same species. But as far as the spirit souls are concerned, they are one qualitatively with the Supreme Lord. Therefore, the rasas were originally exchanged between the spiritual living being and the spiritual whole, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The spiritual exchange or rasa is fully exhibited in spiritual existence between living beings and the Supreme Lord.
The Supreme Personality of Godhead is therefore described in the sruti-mantras, Vedic hymns, as "the fountainhead of all rasas." When one associates with the Supreme Lord and exchanges one's constitutional rasa with the Lord, then the living being is actually happy.
These sruti-mantras indicate that every living being has its constitutional position, which is endowed with a particular type of rasa to be exchanged with the Personality of Godhead. In the liberated condition only, this primary rasa is experienced in full. In the material existence, the rasa is experienced in the perverted form, which is temporary. And thus the rasas of the material world are exhibited in the material form of raudra (anger) and so on.
Therefore, one who attains full knowledge of these different rasas, which are the basic principles of activities, can understand the false representations of the original rasas which are reflected in the material world. The learned scholar seeks to relish the real rasa in the spiritual form. In the beginning he desires to become one with the Supreme. Thus, less intelligent transcendentalists cannot go beyond this conception of becoming one with the spirit whole, without knowing of the different rasas.
In this sloka, it is definitely stated that spiritual rasa, which is relished even in the liberated stage, can be experienced in the literature of the Srimad-Bhagavatam due to its being the ripened fruit of all Vedic knowledge. By submissively hearing this transcendental literature, one can attain the full pleasure of his heart's desire. But one must be very careful to hear the message from the right source. Srimad-Bhagavatam is exactly received from the right source. It was brought by Narada Muni from the spiritual world and given to his disciple Sri Vyasadeva. The latter in turn delivered the message to his son Srila Sukadeva Gosvami, and Srila Sukadeva Gosvami delivered the message to Maharaja Pariksit just seven days before the King's death. Srila Sukadeva Gosvami was a liberated soul from his very birth. He was liberated even in the womb of his mother, and he did not undergo any sort of spiritual training after his birth. At birth no one is qualified, neither in the mundane nor in the spiritual sense. But Sri Sukadeva Gosvami, due to his being a perfectly liberated soul, did not have to undergo an evolutionary process for spiritual realization. Yet despite his being a completely liberated person situated in the transcendental position above the three material modes, he was attracted to this transcendental rasa of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is adored by liberated souls who sing Vedic hymns. The Supreme Lord's pastimes are more attractive to liberated souls than to mundane people. He is of necessity not impersonal because it is only possible to carry on transcendental rasa with a person.
In the Srimad-Bhagavatam the transcendental pastimes of the Lord are narrated, and the narration is systematically depicted by Srila Sukadeva Gosvami. Thus the subject matter is appealing to all classes of persons, including those who seek liberation and those who seek to become one with the supreme whole.
In Sanskrit the parrot is also known as suka. When a ripened fruit is cut by the red beaks of such birds, its sweet flavor is enhanced. The Vedic fruit which is mature and ripe in knowledge is spoken through the lips of Srila Sukadeva Gosvami, who is compared to the parrot not for his ability to recite the Bhagavatam exactly as he heard it from his learned father, but for his ability to present the work in a manner that would appeal to all classes of men.
The subject matter is so presented through the lips of Srila Sukadeva Gosvami that any sincere listener that hears submissively can at once relish transcendental tastes which are distinct from the perverted tastes of the material world. The ripened fruit is not dropped all of a sudden from the highest planet of Krsnaloka. Rather, it has come down carefully through the chain of disciplic succession without change or disturbance. Foolish people who are not in the transcendental disciplic succession commit great blunders by trying to understand the highest transcendental rasa known as the rasa dance without following in the footsteps of Sukadeva Gosvami, who presents this fruit very carefully by stages of transcendental realization. One should be intelligent enough to know the position of Srimad-Bhagavatam by considering personalities like Sukadeva Gosvami, who deals with the subject so carefully. This process of disciplic succession of the Bhagavata school suggests that in the future also Srimad-Bhagavatam has to be understood from a person who is factually a representative of Srila Sukadeva Gosvami. A professional man who makes a business out of reciting the Bhagavatam illegally is certainly not a representative of Sukadeva Gosvami. Such a man's business is only to earn his livelihood. Therefore one should refrain from hearing the lectures of such professional men. Such men usually go to the most confidential part of the literature without undergoing the gradual process of understanding this grave subject. They usually plunge into the subject matter of the rasa dance, which is misunderstood by the foolish class of men. Some of them take this to be immoral, while others try to cover it up by their own stupid interpretations. They have no desire to follow in the footsteps of Srila Sukadeva Gosvami.
One should conclude, therefore, that the serious student of the rasa should receive the message of Bhagavatam in the chain of disciplic succession from Srila Sukadeva Gosvami, who describes the Bhagavatam from its very beginning and not whimsically to satisfy the mundaner who has very little knowledge in transcendental science. Srimad-Bhagavatam is so carefully presented that a sincere and serious person can at once enjoy the ripened fruit of Vedic knowledge simply by drinking the nectarean juice through the mouth of Sukadeva Gosvami or his bona fide representative.
-
Rasika Darsana
Q & A with Swami B. V. Tripurari
"On numerous occasions my Guru Maharaja expressed an affinity for
sakhya rasa, and in my experience many of his disciples have an
undeveloped but natural attraction for this spiritual sentiment."
Q. We commonly hear that all the gurus in the line of Sri Rupa Goswami
(the Gaudiya sampradaya) are in a type of conjugal love with Krsna
known as manjari bhava. However some devotees point to the following
prayer written by Srila Prabhupada as evidence that his spiritual
identity in Krsna lila was that of a cowherd boy in sakhya bhava
(friendly love). What are your thoughts on this?
"O my dear brother! Meeting you again I will experience great joy.
Wandering about the pastures and fields, I will pass the entire day
with you tending the cows. Joking with you and frolicking throughout so
many forests of Vraja, I will roll upon the ground in spiritual
ecstasy. When, oh when will that day be mine?" (Prayer to the Lotus
Feet of Krsna)
A. Most of the gurus and siddhas in our sampradaya have an affinity for
manjari bhava, but there are some exceptions. Siddhas such as Vamsidasa
babaji and Srila Prabhupada's godbrother, Akincana Krsnadasa babaji are
examples. The diksa guru of Syamananda dasa, Hrdaya Caitanya, was in
sakhya rasa. Indeed, the Gaudiya sampradaya began when the dvadasa
gopalas (twelve cowherd friends of Krsna) appeared with Nitai and Gaura
and began initiating disciples. So there is no prohibition in the
Gaudiya sampradaya against having a guru in sakhya rasa, and if you
have a sat guru who is situated in sakhya rasa, it is not a problem.
On numerous occasions my Guru Maharaja expressed an affinity for sakhya
rasa, and in my experience many of his disciples have an undeveloped
but natural attraction for this spiritual sentiment. Pujyapada Sridhara
Deva Goswami considered him to be in sakhya-rati. However, to harmonize
the sentiments of some of his disciples, Srila Sridhara Maharaja also
said it is possible that Srila Prabhupada veiled his sentiments for
manjari bhava out of deference to Nityananda Prabhu, who empowered him
to preach, and while under the influence of Nityananda Prabhu expressed
sentiments for sakhya bhava. Such a possibility exists, although it
seems unlikely because almost the entire Nityananda parivara openly
express affinity for manjari bhava.
[Editors note: More on this topic can be found in the Sanga entitled:
Highest Rasa: "Fools Rush In"]
Q. According to Rupa Gosvami, sakhya-rati is presided over by Upendra.
Can you offer an explanation of this?
A. Upendra is another name for Govinda. Upendra means either one who
comes after Indra, as in the case of Vamanadeva who appears as Indra's
younger brother, or one who is above Indra, as in the case of Govinda.
It was Indra, chief of the gods, who crowned Krsna as the Lord of the
gods and, in conjunction with Surabhi and the other gods present, gave
him the name Govinda. In Sri Hari Vamsa (2.19.46) and Visnu Purana
(5.12.12), Indra gives Krsna the name Upendra at the end of the
Govardhana lila. In Sri Hari Vamsa, Indra says, sa mamopari yathendras
tvam sthapito gobhir isvarah, upendra iti krsna tvam gasyanti divi
devatah: "O Krsna, because the cows have established you as the Indra
above me, the supreme controller, the devas in heaven will call you
Upendra." In the same lila described in Srimad-Bhagavatam, Surabhi
under Indra's direction names Krsna "Govinda" instead of Upendra.
Govinda means he who gives pleasure to or is known by the cows, or he
who is the Lord of the cows. The cows are said to be the source of the
gods--gobhyo devah samutthitah. Thus the name Govinda--Lord of the
cows--is synonymous with the name Upendra--he who is above Indra. So it
is this Upendra--Govinda--not the Upendra who is the younger brother of
Indra, that is the personification of sakhya rati. Furthermore, in
Gopala-tapani Upanisad it is revealed that the name Govinda in the
eighteen-syllable Krsna mantra is identified with sakhya-rati. He who
gives pleasure to the cows, Sri Govinda, does so in his eternal lila by
taking them into the forest along with his comrades, all of whom love
him as their dearest friend. This lila and this name and form of God
are all about sakhya-rati.
Q. Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu's principal associate Sri Nityananda Prabhu
is known as akrodha paramananda nityananda-raya, which means that he is
always joyful in transcendental bliss and never becomes angry. However
it is narrated in the book Nityananda-caritamrta that Nityananda Prabhu
visited a Buddhist monastery and found the Buddhists all sitting
together. The Lord then asked a question and when no one replied he
became angry and kicked the Buddhists in the head. I find this quite
confusing. Why did such an uncharacteristic display of anger come from
Nityananda Prabhu?
A. The text you mention is originally from Caitanya Bhagavata
(1.9.145). It goes on to say that the Buddhists smiled in return,
paldila bauddha-gana hasiya hasiya. So Nityananda Prabhu somehow made
them happy. This is his principal characteristic. Therefore Locana dasa
prays to him thus, ha ha prabhu nityananda premananda sukhi,
krpabalokana koro ami baro duhkhi: "My dear Lord Nityananda, you are
always joyful in spiritual bliss. Since you always appear very happy, I
have come to you because I am most unhappy. If you kindly cast your
glance upon me, I may also become happy." It appears that the followers
of Nityananda Prabhu often speak of kicking in the head people who do
not take advantage of Mahaprabhu's mercy. This is a peculiar expression
of their particular bhava (sakhya bhava/fraternal love), in which the
eagerness for heroism and a good fight that is prominent in sakhya
bhava is transformed into an expression of religious heroism in
Caitanya lila. Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura said that this is an
example of their special mercy, for it immediately draws Krsna's
sympathy to those whom they insult.
However, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has cautioned that while great
devotees may sometimes speak like this out of bhava, less advanced
devotees should not imitate them.
Q. Souls emanating from Balarama are said to be replete with knowledge
(nitya siddha), while those emanating from Maha-Visnu are lacking in
knowledge (nitya-baddha). Is this due to Balarama being a greater
manifestation of Krsna?
A. There are different types of souls. Souls emanating from Maha-Visnu
are called tatastha-sakti (marginal energy); these souls can lose sight
of themselves and become inhabitants of the material world. They are
part of the Lord's play known as srsti lila, the lila of creation.
Souls emanating from Baladeva, Sri Radha, Subala, and so on are never
subject to material illusion. They are not involved with the material
energy because their source is not involved, as is Maha-Visnu in the
case of the nitya-baddha jivas.
Q. Some saints in Krsna lila or Caitanya lila are described as
combinations of different personalities; for example, Ramananda Raya,
the associate of Sri Chaitanya, is said to be Arjuna and Visaka sakhi
simultaneously. How are we to understand this and which Arjuna is being
referred to, the cowherd friend of Krsna in Vraja lila or the warrior
friend of Krsna of Bhagavad-gita fame?
A. Eternal associates (nitya parsada) of Krsna like Ramananda Raya are
constituted of Krsna's svarupa-sakti, unlike the jiva souls in the
material world who are constituted of his tatastha-sakti. Nitya parsada
souls often appear with the Lord in his various incarnations in
appropriate forms or in more than one form. For that matter when the
jiva comes under the influence of Krsna's svarupa-sakti, it can realize
more than one spiritual form in which to serve Krsna. For example, it
is taught in the Gaudiya tradition that the jiva can attain a form as a
young brahmana boy in Gaura lila and a corresponding form as a gopi or
gopa in Krsna lila.
Sri Jiva Goswami cites a passage from the Candogya Upanisad in his
Priti-sandarbha in this regard, interpreting it in an interesting way.
Sri Jiva says, "By his own will a liberated soul can manifest many
different forms. This is described in these words of Candogya Upanisad
(7.26.2): sa ekadha bhavati, dvidha bhavati, tridha bhavati: 'The
liberated soul may manifest one form, two forms, three forms, or more
forms than that.' "
He cites this passage while speaking about the highest liberation, as
described in the preceding chapter of the same Upanisad. Sri Jiva says,
"The highest state of liberation is described in these words of
Candogya Upanisad (7.25.2): sa va evam pasyann evam manvana evam
vijanann atma-ratir atma-krida atma-mithuna, 'In this way the liberated
soul sees God, thinks of him, understands him, delights in him, and
enjoys pastimes with him.' " Candogya 7.26.2 cited above is referring
to spiritual forms and the potential of the liberated to have more than
one such form for the sake of lila with Bhagavan.
Regarding Ramananda Raya in particular, various devotees have
identified him differently. Kavi Karnapura identified him with the gopi
Lalita and the Pandava Arjuna based upon the Ramananda-samvada's being
roughly analogous to the Bhagavad-gita. He also identifies him as the
priyanarma sakha Arjuna of Vraja-lila based on his pacifying Sri
Caitanya when he assumed the bhava of Krsna in separation from Radha.
Priyanarma sakhas are confidential friends of Krsna who are involved in
service within the romantic life of Radha-Krsna.
Others such as Bhaktivinoda Thakura have identified Ramananda Raya with
Visakha gopi based on Visakha's being so similar to Radha, having been
born on the same day, and so on. Because of this similarity, she (as
Ramananda Raya) is eminently qualified to help Caitanya Mahaprabhu
enter Radha's bhava. Such is the rasika darsana (visionary ecstasy) of
different devotees, and such is the potential of the nitya parsadas of
Sri Krsna.
[Editor's note: More information on priyanarma sakhas can be found in
the Sanga entitled "The Dearmost Friend of Krsna."]
Questions or comments may be submitted at the Q&A Forum
http://www.swami.org/sanga/ or email sangaeditor@swami.org.
-
This edition is the first definitive English rendering of Gopala-tapani Upanisad, the most important Upanisad for those following the path of Krsna bhakti. It includes the original Devanagari Sanskrit script, English transliteration, word-for-word meaning, English translation, and an extensive commentary that is both traditional and contemporary at the same time. Gopala-tapani Upanisad is one of the principal 108 Upanisads. It is centered on the significance of the cowherd (Gopala) Krsna and the spiritual practice by which this feature of the divine can be realized. Gopala Krsna represents the heart of the Absolute and is thus realized by the exercise of the practitioner’s heart, from dutiful devotion to love itself. Within the narratives this Upanisad employs to reveal its esoteric doctrine, the very figure of love personified appears along with love’s object. The perfect object of love, Krsna, while nondual, is not alone. He appears with the milkmaid Gandharvi, identified elsewhere in sacred Hindu lore as Radha. She is his primary sakti. As the principal of sacrifice, self-giving, and love, she exemplifies the means to unlock the mystery of life and live within its secret.
http://www.swami.org/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=GU&Category_Code=B
I've attached a picture of the book, above.
Ys., Rama Kesava das
-
-
Krsna can thread an elephant through the eye of a needle... So, therefore he can speak for hours on the 18 chapters of the Gita in seemingly a few minutes. Therefore probability or possibility have nothing to do with it. See this battle through the eyes of scripture (sastra-caksuh) and see that Krsna's message is ultimately more important than the setting or form.
-Rama
-
Nisha prabhuji,
Regardless of whether it's appropriate or not to "trade" salagrama-silas, remember to include your e-mail address (or some other contact method) so anyone can contact you!
Ys., Rama Kesava dasa
-
The answer can be found in the thread "What Happened to Vina". In this, Panca-Tattva prabhu says:
ptdas:
Haribol
I am coordinating WEB services of the WVA.
VINA will be up soon again under new management. Due to lack of time it was not kept up enough, We hope to be able to do a better job in the future. All contributions to WVA are voluntary. No obligations nor fundings are available. That makes it sometimes less efficient. But it keeps the right spirit up.
Give all Vaisnava missions a chance to communicate their positive achievements and interesting essays and discoveries.
To show to the world that all ?Vaisnavas have so much in common.
All other subjects belong to other pages and forums according to the WVA understanding of WEB servicies.
It is true that Tusta Krishna Prabhu and Siddhasvarupananda Prabhu intrumental behind starting Vina, but it was allways understood to be a service to the WVA and all Vaisnavas.
The WVA was very concerned that Vaisnava Forums are often filled with mission disputes and bad language or gossip.
To offer something different Vina was started.
We thank all those who participated in Vina until today and ask for the blessings of the Vaisnava community to be able to contuinue that service as originally conceived.
Specially Ananda Maya das and Purandara Prabhu have done so much voluntary work for this project. But it is nessesary to have more life in this page and since it has been down for a while the WVA office for Internet service is planning to lauch Vina again under new management but with the same spirit. If we have to change the URL we will notify all interestewd partys and forums as soon as possible.
Pancha Tattva das
Internet Committee coordinator of the WVA
I hope they get it and the WVA back on-line, ASAP. The WVA is a nice idea, that badly needs an on-line and up-to-date web presence.
Ys., Rama Kesava dasa
-
Originally posted by jndas:
Part of the problem was Amara's insistence that it was natural for the "third sex" people to engage in certain sexual activities and that it wasn't sinful.
Good point. I will go away and think about this... maybe it's something I need to discuss with him.
(I will admit that I never agreed with your retranslation of viyoni, but I posted my reasons elsewhere, and that is a past topic of debate.)
Ys., Rama Kesava dasa
[This message has been edited by nine9 (edited 05-06-2002).]
-
Dear theist,
Pranams. I see Amara has beaten me to it, and summed up Swami's position on this. Thanks Amara!
Originally posted by theist:
A second point is that what is described in the Puranic texts is not homosexuality, as is conceived of today. They are people born with physical defects that make them neither male nor female (or both).
To compare them to the homosexuals of today, such as found in a place like San Francisco is way off.
You actually bring up a very interesting and valid point here, that I will now have to address on the website.
True, the gay men of today are not completely the same as the Puranic definition of the third sex. Most of them are engaged in violent and depraved acts of debauchery, sinful activities, meat-eating, alcoholism, etc. GALVA does not really seek to argue about them. As with all things, the GALVA point of view is an idealised one. Just as we assume in the definition of devotee that he or she is faithfully adhering to KC in both thoughts and deeds, we should bear in mind that the "gay relationships" in Krsna Consciousness, that we present are idealised ones. The third gender of the Puranas maybe did include those segments of society, who bsed their relationships on lust and desire alone, but as they neglected to sanction them, so too do we make our presentation one of a celibate homosexual couple, in which the sexual desire has been sublimated and replaced by mutual benefit for devotional service.
There is too much assumption, still as ever, on what people get up to. People automatically assume that homosexuals are promiscuous, or that those couples who are in Krsna Consciousness are basing their relationships on satisfying their carnal urges every five minutes. This what I meant. The fundamental point here is that we should rather assume that if someone says they are sticking to the rules, that they are, and we should believe them. If a homosexual couple comes to Krsna Consciousness, fully understanding and accepting that they will be expected to be celibate (as they cannot have children) -- as was the Puranic tritya-prakrti -- then they should be seen on an equal footing as heterosexuals.
I think we actually agree on far more than we both give each credit for. Anyways, prabhu, it's been nice to have this talk...and I appreciate your candour.
Thanks for stimulating "ze little grey cells", and Hari bol!
Ys., Rama Kesava dasa
-
Originally posted by theist:
niner niner where are you?do you copy? over.
I'm here... just very, very busy. I hardly get time to come on this website, hence I gave you my e-mail. It wasn't to create a "private" conversation, but to give you the opportunity to correspond if you wanted.
We've been over this issue a million times. Of course no-one is saying that we should live rampant lives full of carnal pleasure, but yes, Maharaja does have gay disciples, and recognises them as such.
In an ideal situation you would see us, just as you see your heterosexual peers. We have the same problems with lust, and EXACTLY the same duty to fight and abate it.
Just go and read the GALVA website if you have any questions. The whole point's not to create factionism. Ideally we should all just get on with our sadhana, without persecuting each other, and without fear of persecution because of what people THINK we get up to. My point is that asides from what sexual perversions of the material world they enjoy gay and straight people are more-or-less the same. the appelation is only there to give shelter to those who have been persecute.
A question, though: what's the harm of having nice, celibate, gay couples serving together in Krsna Consciousness?
Ys., Rama Kesava dasa
-
Originally posted by theist:
This is strange.I went to their site to see what it was and following a link the sponser claims to be Tripurari's disciple.
What is up with this?
Yes I am Maharaja's disciple... Why don't you just ask me then, prabhu? You can e-mail me at rama.kesava.bvts@pamho.net.
Ys., Rama Kesava dasa
[This message has been edited by nine9 (edited 04-29-2002).]
-
Skeptic, Stonehearted,
Haribol! I thought I might point out that, although not listed on the Audarya Bookstore website, there is a mini version of Fom of Beauty that is not so expensive.
Here are the details:
Form of Beauty : Mini Edition
by Swami B. V. Tripurari
Price: $12.95
Paperback - 208 pages (October 2000)
Mandala Publishing Group; ISBN: 1886069379 ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.56 x 4.83 x 4.37
Ys., Rama Kesava dasa
Sanga website: http://www.swami.org/sanga
Audarya website: http://www.swami.org/
Audarya Bookstore: http://www.swami.org/merchant.mv
-
Okay - the one from http://krishna.org and from http://folio.bhaktivedanta.org/ is actually the old DOS version. It is distributed by the Prabhupada Sankirtana Society (PSS) - and whilst it works, it unfortunately only covers books Srila Prabhupada actually wrote (hence it stops at SB 10.13). I have a copy here, and it looks, feels (and is?) a bootleg.
-Rama
-
Are there any more instances of distance and/or on-line teaching under the 'tol' system in existence? I am very interested in this way of teaching Sanskrit and the Vedic arts, and am eager to hear of any.
-Rama Kesava
-
Originally posted by Pita das:
Rama Kesava I emailed you but the message has been returned to me
I can be contacted by email at
www.artmaya@hotmail.com or at
Hari Bol
Those e-mail addresses didn't work, prabhu... but mine should now (PAMHO was having problems).
-Rama Kesava
-
Originally posted by Pita das:
All Glories to His Holiness Tripurari Maharaja may he continue for another hundred years
Pita prabhu,
Can you e-mail me at rama.kesava.bvts@pamho.net?
Thanks,
Rama Kesava dasa
-
My dear prabhu,
Originally posted by shvu:
Out of curiosity, why bring out a new commmentary on the Gita when there already exists a popular commentary with extensive notes from his own Guru? What does the new commentary contain that is not to be found in the older one?
The same question could have been asked of Srila Prabhupada's Gita. Srila Prabhupada himself had retranslated and commented on books that his Godbrothers and spiritual masters had translated and commented on. The Bhagavad-Gita itself had been translated and commented on in its entirety by Visvanatha Cakravarti, Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Bhakti Hridoy Bon Maharaja, Bhakti Pradipati Tirtha Maharaja, and B.R. Sridhar Maharaja, to name but a few within our direct lineage.
Srila Prabhupada himself states in the purport of chapter nine verse one, "The commentaries given by devotees of the Lord are bona fide." If this is so, as it must be, then the commentaries prior to his must have been bona fide and yet he felt the need to retranslate the books and comment on them.
As with Srila Prabhupada's commentary, Swami Tripurari seeks to present this timeless sacred text to the world in a way relevant to both time and context, thereby continuing the tradition established in our Gaudiya Vaisnava lineage of Bhagavad-Gita commentaries in contemporary language.
In service,
Rama Kesava dasa
(a disciple of Swami BV Tripurari)
PS Herefollows Swami's preface:--
Preface
From 'Bhagavad-gita: Its Feeling and Philosophy'
by Swami B.V. Tripurari
Early one morning in the spring of 1973 I was invited to accompany my spiritual master on a morning walk. As the sun rose to a sleeping Los Angeles, I climbed, wide-eyed at the prospect of intimate association with my guru, into a small white Toyota station wagon along with two of my godbrothers and our Prabhupada. This was Prabhupada's car, one that I also used in his service, the distribution of his books.
We drove to Cheviot Hills, one of two places that Prabhupada would take his morning walk when in Los Angeles. He preferred Venice Beach, but variety has value. On this particular morning, the park was damp and the ground had just been aerated. After Prabhupada indirectly let us know his preference for Venice Beach through his critique of the park, he spoke to us about the shortcoming of modern science. In the course of questioning the potential of something arising out of nothing, the conversation itself dissipated and we walked in silence.
The little clumps of earth scattered all about appeared like stools to the uninformed, and I found myself questioning why we had brought Prabhupada to this place. Were they stools? Prabhupada broke the silence to ask this very question. Too embarrassed and ignorant to answer, I left it to the others, one of whom explained in brief the science of aerating the earth.
The silence continued, and I felt the need to absorb my mind in spiritual thoughts, lest it not take full advantage of the opportunity at hand. As we crossed the field, as if influenced by a force beyond myself, I thought spontaneously of Vrndavana, Krsna, and his cowherds and cows. Almost effortlessly my mind conjured up a sense of the pastoral setting of Vrndavana and Krsna's lilas of cowherding with his friends. Where were we really?
Clad in saffron robes, an elderly man of five feet four or five, no more, walked with an eternal youthfulness that questioned the apparent youth of those who walked beside him. With his cane in hand, head held in absolute confidence, he challenged the metanarrative of modern science, as if the missing link were a poke from his cane. His glance so captivating, benedicting, his eyes tinged with the ointment of love of Krsna, our beloved Prabhupada wanted the world to stop and just love Krsna. He wanted us to be his instruments through which this would be accomplished.
Prabhupada compellingly told us to write articles, publish them, and replace the prevailing paradigm with Krsna's message. Then someone mentioned my name and success in the field of distributing his books. Prabhupada turned to me and said, "By distributing these books, you are doing a great service to Krsna. He [Krsna] wanted to say to everyone: sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja. He comes, therefore. So anyone who is doing the same service, he is recognized by Krsna very nicely. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita: na ca tasman manusyesu. In the human society, nobody is dearer than he who is helping preaching work."
In his first words to me, Prabhupada cited three verses from the Bhagavad-gita, all from the eighteenth chapter. First he cited the conclusion of the Gita: "Abandoning all consideration of dharma, just surrender unto me." Then he cited Krsna's two verses of praise for those involved in disseminating this conclusion. The actual verses run thus: "For one who explains this supreme secret to the devotees, pure devotional service is guaranteed, and at the end he will come back to me. There is no servant in this world more dear to me than he, nor will there ever be one more dear."
In his Gita commentary, Prabhupada comments on Krsna's words regarding those who explain his message: "Anyone, however, who tries sincerely to present Bhagavad-gita as it is will advance in devotional activities and reach the pure devotional state of life. As a result of such pure devotion, he is sure to go back home, back to Godhead." By the term "as it is," which became the subtitle for Prabhupada's edition of the Gita, Prabhupada meant explaining the Bhagavad-gita from a devotional perspective. Only one who loves Krsna is privy to the implications of his eloquent speech.After Prabhupada encouraged all of us to write and distribute books about Krsna, one of my godbrothers commented, "We are simply your puppets, Srila Prabhupada. You're giving us the books."
This did not seem to satisfy Srila Prabhupada, as he made the following reference to the guru-parampara. "No. We are all puppets of Krsna. I am also a puppet. This is disciplic succession." While he humbly gave all credit to his own guru and Krsna for anything he had accomplished, he implied that becoming the puppet of Guru and Krsna in a dynamic sense as he had done involved not merely circulating one's guru's writings, but writing books oneself. This was the example he set. While writing his own books, he considered that he was merely acting as a puppet of Guru and Krsna. Becoming the puppet of one's guru is about getting a spiritual life, and thinking for oneself within the parameters of that which is actually spiritual.
Looking back at that spring morning in Los Angeles' Cheviot Hills as I myself turned 50, I felt that my life would be incomplete if I did not author an edition of Bhagavad-gita in contemporary language. Faithfully distributing that which another has drawn down from the infinite should in time bear the fruit of enabling such a distributor in time to draw down something himself. This is the fruit of the seed that Sri Guru plants in the heart of the disciple. In the form of this edition of Bhagavad-gita, I have been able to taste this fruit to some extent only by my spiritual master's grace, and he sent several persons to assist me in this effort. I am grateful to all of them. May he bless them, and may Sri Caitanya, who is none other than Radha-Krsna combined, continue to bless the world with his doctrine of love of Godhead. May that blessing come in the form of devotional literature written from within the cultural context of devotees of Krsna who are now taking birth all over the world.
- Swami B. V. Tripurari
-
NEW GITA COMMENTARY SOLD OUT IN TEN DAYS!
Swami Tripurari's book rushed off press
Swami B.V. Tripurari's long-awaited translation and commentary of the
Bhagavad-Gita has just been printed, but sold out within ten days.
Astonished, the publishers, Mandala are now reprinting two to three times as
many copies of the book.
In this new commentary, Swami B.V. Tripurari attempts to fulfill the desire
of his spiritual master, Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada by
continuing the tradition established in our Gaudiya Vaisnava lineage of
Bhagavad-Gita commentaries in contemporary language. Readers are praising
the readability of the book and how the commentary connects each verse to
the next, making for compelling reading that leaves one wanting to know what
happens next. The text keeps the Gaudiya purport confined to the commentary,
whilst drawing from personal insights and those of other acaryas in our
lineage. The depth of the commentary, and its sweetness have also been
mentioned as highlights. Swami Tripurari calls our attention to our princely
Lord's preoccupation with his Vrndavana pastimes, and the true battle at
Kuruksetra against the ego.
Several Gaudiya Vaisnava gurus are conducting classes from the book already,
and many devotees are reading it side by side with Srila Prabhupada's
Bhagavad-Gita As It Is, finding the two to be very complimentary. Overall
the book is creating a renaissances in the study of the immortal
Bhagavad-Gita among devotees of the Gaudiya tradition, who are now
re-examining the depth of Krsna's sweet song. The book has also been greatly
appreciated for its ability to bring forward the charm and mystic insight of
the Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition in a way that is endearing not only to those
unaffiliated with any particular religious sect, but also to those firmly
committed to sects other than the Gaudiya tradition. Our hope is that this
edition will also enrich the life of the practitioner while pleasing our
Srila Prabhupada who said-
"You ask one question about the nature of books I want you to write
as my disciples; on this point, Krsna Consciousness is not limited. Persons
like all of the Gosvamis wrote so many books, Visvanatha Cakravarti, and all
the acaryas wrote books, and still I am writing books. Similarly, also my
disciples will write." (letter to Satsvarupa dasa Gosvami, 28 Feb., 1972)
A number of copies may still be available at major US bookstores. Upon
re-release the book will also be available from the Audarya Bookstore at
http://www.swami.org/merchant.mv and from Mandala Publishing Group at
BHAGAVAD-GITA: ITS FEELING AND PHILOSOPHY
ISBN 1-886-069-53-0
-
SANGA "ASK THE SWAMI" NOW ON BELIEFNET.COM:
Prestigious website adds Swami B.V. Tripurari's Q&A as a regular column
Dear Devotees,
Sanga began four years ago in 1998, after the publication of Aesthetic
Vedanta, with only 30 rs. It is an online community and mailing
list that focuses on the teachings of the Gaudiya Vedanta lineage, and the
writings of Swami B.V. Tripurari. Dubbed the "Thomas Merton of the modern
bhakti tradition," Swami Tripurari has authored a number of ground-breaking
works, and the Sanga mailing list - normally in Q&A format - appeals to both
new and familiar faces with its diverse range of hari-katha. Now, in 2001,
Sanga has close to 10,000 readers, and excerpts are featured on the
Beliefnet website as a regular column.
Sanga has often been featured on on-line Gaudiya Vaisnava news organs,
however Beliefnet -- as the most prestigious and largest commercial
non-sectarian religious site on the World Wide Web -- casts a much wider
net, not only in terms of scholarly academic interest, but also in terms of
preaching. This user-driven website is, in its own words a "multi-faith
e-community," that provides enlivening fora, debates, information links,
daily inspiration, etc., all seeking to aid the spiritual seeker on his or
her path. With its no-frills, no-nonsense approach, and a plethora of
on-line tools, the site now has the reputation as "by far the most
sophisticated and diverse spiritual site currently of the web" (New Age
magazine, July/Aug 2000). Dr Brenda Brasher of Christian Science Monitor has
called it an "on-line marketplace of religion". Thus the sheer preaching
potential of this Webby Award nominee, which appeals to followers of all
religions, from businessmen to alternatic lifestyle enthusiasts, is clear.
Arun Venugopal, editor of Beliefnet Hinduism, contacted Sanga a few months
ago about featuring selected Q&A with Swami Tripurari on the Beliefnet
site. Mr. Venugopal said he had been a r to Sanga for some time
and was so impressed that he signed up a number of friends and family
members that he felt would appreciate the Sanga of Swami Tripurari.
Brahma Das, the current editor of Sanga said this about its remarkable
success:
"It was the earnest desire of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada that his
disciples find the ways and means to broadcast the message of Sri Chaitanya
to every town and village. What began as a modest effort by Swami Tripurari
and his staff is now blossoming into a successful and well-received tribute
to the glories of Mahaprabhu and our beloved Srila Prabhupada. Devotees,
scholars and seekers from all over the world tell me they are subscribing to
Sanga because of the excellent heartfelt and objective presentation of
Gaudiya Vaisnavism by Swami Tripurari that they find there. I am thankful
that I am able to contribute in my own small way."
"ASK THE SWAMI" with Swami B.V. Tripurari is a regular feature of
www.Beliefnet.com and can be found on the Hinduism pages. The recent Sanga
"We are Students Forever" is currently featured on Beliefnet's frontpage
under the heading "Are Gurus Necessary? - Ask the Swami."
Beliefnet is at: http://www.beliefnet.com
Sanga home page: http://www.swami.org/sanga
In service,
Rama Kesava dasa
-
Originally posted by shvu:
According to the Bible, Jesus was the only son of God, sent down by God to save man. God's only begotten son, who came down from heaven.
Definitely much more than a "bonafide acarya".
Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada said he was saktyavesh avatara, an empowered incarnation.
When I asked my Guru Maharaja about the meaning of the term, he responded thus:
(Swami BV Tripurari Maharaja)
Regarding saktyavesa, avesa means empowerment and sakti means potency. A saktyavesa avatara is one in whom a particular potency (sakti) of Godhead descends (avatara) to empower (avesa) a devotee for a specific purpose. Prthu Maharaja was empowered by the ruling potency (palanavesa), Vyasa by knowledge (jnanavesa), etc. This empowerment is temporary, as in the case of Parasaurama, who was an empowered being but lost in battle with Ramacandra when the Lord's avesa was withdrawn. We consider that Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, my Gurudeva, was empowered by Nityananda Prabhu, Nityanandavesa, for the work of wide scale preaching the glories of Gauranga. This empowerment came while he was on the boat, Jaladutta. Such empowerment can be understood through the guidance of those who have eyes to see. It comes by the grace of God for his own purpose.
Ys., Rama Kesava dasa
[This message has been edited by nine9 (edited 10-28-2001).]
-
Dear Jahnava Nitai prabhu,
Thank you for your comments. You believe what you believe and Amara prabhu and I believe what we believe. However our views are irreconcilable, and we will never change each other's position. I respect you for views however; you have conviction.
However, I don't feel that it's proper to have yet another, third, round of debate on homosexuality. Nothing new is accomplished...and all we do is go round in circles.
The topic of whether every statement Srila Prabhupada ever said relating to ordinary subjects (such as homosexuality and women's issues) as being eternal truths is something that is currently being debated within ISKCON and on websites such as CHAKRA. Such debate is healthy. Srila Prabhupada wanted us to use intelligence in applying his instructions, and Lord Caitanya wanted everyone to be included in His sankirtana movement. We can see from instances such as the recent conference in Alachua that a good majority of ISKCON devotees are open-minded and perfectly willing to accommodate gay persons within the movement.
One other point I would like to make is that the views I posted on "Questions and Answers" are Amara's own views and not necessarily those of other members or even the "official" views of GALVA. He and I do believe they are correct, however, from everything we have studied so far on the subject matter of the third sex and also from our respective understanding of the mood of our beloved gurudeva Srila Prabhupada.
So, can we bury this issue? I cannot begin to imagine why people like you are even the least bit interested in this topic of homosexuality. Most of my devotee friends are straight, and they could care less about these types of conversations. Please do not be so obsessed with gay people and their concerns for equal treatment. It is quite unhealthy. In fact these modern-day psychologists would say there would be some deep-seated reason why you keep pursuing it... but I will not. I should much rather discuss important things, such as your work at the Bhaktivedanta Ashrama.
I remain,
Your humble servant,
Rama Kesava dasa
(disciple of HH B.V. Tripurari Swami Maharaja)
[This message has been edited by nine9 (edited 10-23-2001).]
-
Dear Gauracandra prabhu,
Most of your assertations are quite correct and I agree with you by and large. However, as I have been trying to argue for some months now, homosexuality is not merely about the sexual act, just as heterosexuality does not revolve around copulation. This is so important. Yes, we are sinful, but only as sinful as those heterosexuals who copulate for sense-enjoyment. It's the same coin, just a different side. This is what I meant when I said to Jahnava Nitai prabhu that he (meaning heterosexuals) has his vice, and I mine.
Originally posted by Gauracandra:
No Vaisnava tradition accepts homosexuality.
Hah! Um, so I'm not a Vaisnava, and neither are my third-gendered (tritiya-prakrti) godbrothers and godsisters, eh? I would, of course beg to differ, but we're never going to agree, so I embrace you as my godbrother and offer you my humble dandavat pranams. You have your view, I have mine. Can we not agree to differ, and discuss more important things of a common interest?
Ys., Rama Kesava dasa
PS As a small side note - not all sexual acts are accompanied by orgasm (i.e. ejaculation). And I agree with you such things are not at all too nice, and (when you consider STDs, the Big Nasty, and the like) quite a dangerous thing to do.
[This message has been edited by nine9 (edited 10-23-2001).]
-
Jahnava Nitai prabhu,
Here is something my friend Amara wrote regarding the translation of "viyoni", that you may (possibly?) find insightful:
(Amara)
"Karma" refers to action or activities. "Akarma" refers to inaction
or without action. Sukarma refers to pious or good actions, and vikarma refers to impious or bad actions. These are the standard applications for these prefixes according to Sanskrit scholars and as used by Srila Prabhupada himself.
I mention this common example due to its corresponding application to the word "yoni" or female organ. "Ayoni" refers to a non-womb and often refers to anal intercourse. "Suyoni" refers to a good or proper womb, and "viyoni" refers to a bad or improper womb.
Regardless of how one translates or mistranslates these words, there are still two important points to understand regarding Sanskrit verses that mention "ayoni" and "viyoni." First of all adhorata, or anal sex, is not recommended for any of the three genders, including people of the third sex. Verses condemning its practice cannot be assumed to be condemning all homosexual behavior and love-making. Nowadays it is quite common for straight people to identtify homosexual behavior as being primarily anal intercourse, but this is simply not true. According to the Kama Shastra, oral sex is the natural practice of the third gender and not adhorata. Secondly, these verses typically describe and refer to "pumsaka" or first-gendered males. They do not refer to "napumsaka" or third-gendered males.
Instead of misusing these verses to discriminate against gays, I suggest we take their true meaning to heart as a warning against the risky and unhealthy practice of adhorata for all genders. After all, the modern day epidemic spread of AIDS in Africa can be directly linked to similar practices among heterosexuals. Within the gay community, AIDS is almost entirely transmitted through unsafe anal sex. We need to educate all people about the dangers of unhealthy sexual practices. If we foolishly misuse these verses to condemn and reject other groups of people, we are missing the point they make and are only creating a worse situation for everyone.
And an interesting quote:
"Another noteworthy feature (of the Kama-sutra) is Vatsyayana's treatment of oral sex as the primary form of same-sex sexual interaction. He is clearly aware of anal sex performed on men and also penetrative sex with a dildo. However, here, as in other ancient Indian texts, oral sex, not penetrative sex, is represented as the model of sex between men. This leads one to wonder why penetrative sex later came to displace oral sex in the popular imagination as the primary form of sex etween men."
"Same-sex Love in India," by Ruth Vanita and Saleem Kidwai, p. 52.
Ys., Rama Kesava dasa
[This message has been edited by nine9 (edited 10-23-2001).]
Mayavadis, Brahmavadis, and Sayujya Mukti
in Spiritual Discussions
Posted · Report reply
Mayavadis, Brahmavadis, and Sayujya Mukti
Q & A with Swami B. V. Tripurari
"Those who engage in sattviki-bhakti can attain sayujya mukti as long as
they do not offend Bhagavan. Sattviki-bhakti is mentioned in
Srimad-Bhagavatam: "The practice of devotion in the mode of goodness with
a desire to attain mukti is known as sattviki-bhakti."
Q. Do the paths of jnana (knowledge), yoga, and bhakti (devotion) all lead
to the same experience in transcendence?
A. Jnana (knowledge), yoga, and bhakti (devotion) are paths to God
realization, but they are three distinct paths. Do they all lead to the
same experience? No. They lead to distinct aspects of the life of the
Absolute--brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate. So says
Srimad-Bhagavatam.
Whereas bhakti leads to Bhagavan realization, jnana and yoga lead to
Brahman or Paramatma realization. Bhakti is never dependent on jnana or
yoga, but jnana and yoga are dependent on bhakti to deliver results.
Indeed, neither yoga or jnana are favorable to bhakti, but bhakti is what
infuses life into both jnana and yoga. According to Srimad-Bhagavatam,
jnanis or yogis who do not factor bhakti into their aspirations for mukti
will never attain it:
kevalena hi bhavena gopyo gavo naga mrgah ye 'nye mudha-dhiyo nagah
siddha mam iyur anjasa
yam na yogena sankhyena dana-vrata-tapo-'dhvaraih
vyakhya-svadhyaya-sannyasaih prapnuyad yatnavan api
"The inhabitants of Vrndavana, including the gopis, cows, unmoving
creatures such as the twin arjuna trees, animals, living entities with
stunted consciousness such as bushes and thickets, and snakes such as
Kaliya, all achieved the perfection of life by unalloyed love for me and
thus very easily achieved me. Even though one engages with great endeavor
in the mystic yoga system, philosophical speculation, charity, vows,
penances, ritualistic sacrifices, teaching of Vedic mantras to others,
personal study of the Vedas, or the renounced order of life, still one
cannot achieve me." (SB 11.12.8-9)
Srimad-Bhagavatam also says that practicing jnana without bhakti is like
beating an empty husk of rice. It will never give one mukti:
sreyah-srtim bhaktim udasya te vibhoklisyanti ye
kevala-bodha-labdhayetesam asau klesala eva sisyatenanyad yatha
sthula-tusavaghatinam (SB 10.14.4)
If the path of knowledge is mixed with bhakti, it can grant realization of
Brahma sayujya (merging in Brahman), and if the path of yoga is mixed with
bhakti, it can grant Isvara sayujya (merging in Paramatma).
Q. Ramanuja has glorified sayujya-mukti while rejecting the central
precepts of Advaita Vedanta, in which the jiva in sayujya is thought to
have become absolutely one with Brahman in all respects. Therefore, how
can merging into the effulgence of Krsna/Narayana be thought of as
undesirable, as it is sometimes portrayed in the Gaudiya tradition?
A. Gaudiya acarya Baladeva Vidyabhusana writes that sayujya is the basis
of mukti. He also cites Narayana Upanisad (sayujyam gacchati), implying
that the mukta jiva (liberated soul) in sayujya participates in eternal
sport with Hari. The sruti says, dva suparna sayujya: "two in sayujya,"
indicating that sayujya can be understood to be the basis of all other
types of liberation--a sense of oneness or intimacy with God, as opposed
to merging in Brahman and being devoid of any sense of relationship with
Bhagavan. Following the above understanding, Bhaktivinoda Thakura, in his
Tattva-sutra, has called the culture of gopi bhava (the love that the
gopis have for Krsna) "brahma sayujya sadhana."
However, Sri Krsnadasa Kaviraja in Caitanya-caritamrta clearly
distinguishes sayujya-mukti from other types of liberation. Krsnadasa
Kaviraja Goswami describes sayujya as being outside the gates of
Vaikuntha, the transcendental world of Krsna/Narayana.
So there are different conceptions of sayujya. Ramanuja's conception of
sayujya is similar to that of Baladeva Vidyabhusana. While some Vaisnava
sampradayas do not recognize any form of liberation outside of Vaikuntha,
the Gaudiyas do recognize the possibility of losing one's sense of
individuality by merging into the effulgence of God--the
brahmajyoti/Brahman. Although they call this experience sayujya-mukti,
they consider it an undesirable form of partial liberation in which only
the lower half of the equation of liberation (deliverance from karma) is
realized. In this understanding of sayujya-mukti, there is little prospect
of realizing one's spiritual form (svarupa), which according to Vaisnavism
is the other half of the equation of liberation.
The Advaita Vedanta conception of sayujya-mukti, where the liberated jiva
is thought to become God in all respects by the mere cultivation of
knowledge is not acceptable to any Vaisnava sampradaya.
[Editor's note: Further information on the difference between Gaudiya
Vedanta and Advaita Vedanta can be found in these previous Sangas:
Moksa and Mayavada:
http://www.swami.org/sanga/archives/pages/volume_four/m186.html
The Brahma-sutras of Badarayana:
http://www.swami.org/sanga/archives/pages/volume_four/m190.html]
Q. Some Vaisnava sects disagree with characterizing Brahman as the
effulgence of Krsna and being outside the gates of Vaikuntha. The Ramanuja
sampradaya insists that Brahman refers to Visnu, who is all-pervading, and
they can support their position from scripture. Furthermore, how can
Brahma sayujya be outside the gates of Vaikuntha when Brahman is
all-pervading? How can it be undesirable in any way?
A. Gaudiya Vedanta has much to say in support of the Bhagavatam's
explanation of the nondual Absolute (advaya-jnana tattva), in which
Brahman is equated with God's effulgence. Sri Krsnadasa Kaviraja, our
revered sastra-acarya, has explained, tanhara angera suddha kirana-mandala
upanisat kahe tanre brahma sunirmal: "The Upanisads call the spotless
Brahman the effulgence of the Supreme Person." This is supported by Sri
Isopanisad, hiranmayena patrena satyasyapihitam mukham tat tvam pusann
apavrnu satya-dharmaya drstaye: O my Lord, sustainer of all that lives,
your real face is covered by your dazzling effulgence
(Brahman/hiranmayena). Kindly remove that covering and exhibit yourself to
your pure devotee."
Sri Brahma-samhita also confirms this:
yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anda-koti- kotisv
asesa-vasudhadi-vibhuti-bhinnam tad brahma niskalam anantam
asesa-bhutam govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami
"I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, whose effulgence is the source of
the nondifferentiated Brahman. Being differentiated from the glory of the
mundane universe, it appears as the indivisible, infinite, limitless
truth." (Bs. 5.40)
Some sects of Vaisnavism might not recognize the brahmajyoti as the
effulgence of Krsna, but we Gaudiyas follow Caitanya Mahaprabhu who
accepted this understanding as definitive. Mahaprabhu brought Sri
Brahma-samhita from South India, distributed it to his followers, and
accepted it as authoritative scriptural evidence. His opinion on this
issue is cited in Caitanya-caritamrta and other Gaudiya scriptures.
Yes, Brahman is all-pervading, but that does not mean that the material
world is "within the gates of Vaikuntha." Thus neither is the sayujya
mukta's status in the brahmajoyti. The point to remember is that Gaudiya
Vedanta teaches that one's svarupa (spiritual form) is not realized in
sayujya-mukti; therefore, Gaudiya acaryas describe such liberation as
undesirable. They tell us that we have a duty, an eternal function as
jivas (individual souls) in relation to God, the Supreme Soul. Caitanya
Mahaprabhu puts it like this, jivera svarupa haya krsnera nitya-dasa: we
are the eternal servants of Krsna. A soul may give up the criminality of
exploitation (material desire), but if that soul does not take up eternal
service to Krsna, it could be compared to a citizen who refuses to do
civic duty. According to Vaisnavism, worse yet is a soul who fantasizes
that he can become God in all respects, which is the goal of Advaita
Vedanta.
Q. Gaudiya acarya Prabodhananda Saraswati wrote, kaivalyam narakayate:
"Becoming one with the Supreme is as good as going to hell," but does a
Gaudiya Vaisnava really need to conceptualize sayujya-mukti in this way in
order to attain the Gaudiya ideal? Can one objectively even compare
sayujya-mukti to hell or is this just the subjective vision of the
Gaudiyas--another religious sentiment?
A. "Objectivity" is a loaded word, and it is questionable if anything
close to pure objectivity exists at all. That said, it is important to
note that bhakti is ultimately about cultivating love for one's Deity, and
love is a type of bias. Thus our acaryas have taught us how to think about
sayujya-mukti and all types of liberation for the sake of fueling our
bhajana. Indeed, their thoughts--their religious sentiment--on this issue
comes out of their own bhajana.
They often cite the following verse from Srimad-Bhagavatam
salokya-sarsti-samipya- sarupyaikatvam apy uta diyamanam na grhnanti
vina mat-sevanam janah
"My devotees do not accept salokya, sarsti, sarupya, samipya, or
oneness with me (sayujya)--even if I offer these liberations--in
preference to serving me." (3.29.)
In this verse all kinds of liberation are rejected in the sense that they
are not to be desired. Rather service is our only concern. Caitanya
Mahaprabhu wrote, mama janmani janamanisvare bhavatad bhaktir ahaituki
tvayi: "Let me be born again and again as long as I can engage in
Bhagavad-bhakti." Although pure Vaisnavas do not desire any type of mukti,
our acaryas have singled out sayujya as being the least desirable because
there is no bhakti it. Moreover, it holds no experience whatsoever, for it
involves the object of experience (Brahman) and the experiencer (the soul)
becoming one in all respects. Unless there is an object to experience and
an experiencer, there cannot be any experience. Thus sayujya-mukti is
often compared to deep sleep.
Q. If one could separate Brahman realization (sayujya-mukti) from the
Advaita Vedanta of Sankara, could we as Gaudiya Vaisnavas find something
nice to say about it?
A. In the interest of pursuing the Gaudiya ideal, our acaryas have deemed
it appropriate to deprecate this kind of mukti because it leads to a
nondevotional state of eternal being. However, we Gaudiyas can speak of
sayujya in a positive light by explaining it, much as the Ramanujas have,
as being the sense of oneness with one's Deity that is central to bhakti.
Baladeva Vidyabhusana has done this in his Govinda Bhasya, as has Thakura
Bhaktivinoda.
Gaudiya Vaisnavas are the most generous of all the Vaisnava sampradayas
toward the Adwaitins. For example, Ramanuja Vaisnavas are taught not to
even enter a Siva (Sankara) temple. Madhva Vaisnavas at one time were
taught to chant a mantra cursing Sankara when passing urine. Caitanya
Mahaprabhu, on the other hand, addressed him as "Acarya," Sankaracarya. By
citing the Puranas, he explained why Sankara taught what he did and gave
him a place beyond the material world (brahmajyoti), which can be attained
by jnanis with the help of sattviki-bhakti, a form of bhakti constituted
of sattva-guna. In this status jnanis can dream of being God forever but
we Gaudiya Vaisnavas have no interest in this fantasy.
Q. Do Gaudiyas really believe that a person who accepts the Mayavada
philosophy (Advaita Vedanta) in every respect can actually attain
sayujya-mukti? Other Vaisnava sampradayas don't.
A. Vaisnavas believe that those who are Mayavadis in the full sense of the
term are offensive to Bhagavan because they do not accept the eternality
of the form of the Lord. Thus either they have no devotion at all or they
engage in a meager form of sattviki-bhakti that they dispense with once
they attain their ideal (sayujya-mukti). According to the Bhagavatam, the
former go nowhere and gain only trouble for their efforts, and the latter
can possibly rise to the status of a jivan mukta, from which they will
fall down again. Bhagavatam describes them as vimukta maninah, thinking
they are liberated when their intelligence is not purified, avisuddha
buddhaya. By jnana they can remove all except their prarabdha (manifest)
karma. By devotion they can remove prarabdha and attain liberation. But
according to the Bhagavatam, if they remain offensive to the form of
Bhagavan, they will not achieve this result and they will fall from their
partial liberation (jivan mukti). That is to say they cannot attain videha
mukti, the full sense of sayujya.
Q. Is there a difference between a Brahmavadi and a Mayavadi?
A. Those who engage in sattviki-bhakti can attain mukti as long as they do
not offend Bhagavan. Sattviki-bhakti is mentioned in Srimad-Bhagavatam,
yajed yantavyam iti va prthag-bhavah sa sattvikah: "The practice of
devotion in the mode of goodness with a desire to attain mukti is known as
sattviki-bhakti." (SB 3.29.10) Such jnanis (Brahmavadis) can attain
brahma-sayujya.
Jnanis who through the association of a great devotee give up their desire
for liberation and make bhakti prominent over jnana in their practice can
attain devotional liberation in neutrality (santa-rasa). The four Kumaras
are examples of this. They are the true Brahmavadis, whereas those
attaining brahma-sayujya mentioned above are only remotely so.
Q. I believe the following verse clearly refers to Mayavadi philosophers
but can these verses in a lesser sense refer to perhaps
jnana-misra-bhakti? Also how is it possible to attain Brahman realization
with impure intelligence? And once attaining sayujya-mukti how can one
fall down, since the mukta has no material desires to make him fall? Where
would he fall to?
ye 'nye 'ravindaksa vimukta-maninas tvayy asta-bhavad
avisuddha-buddhayah aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah patanty adho
'nadrta-yusmad-anghrayah
O lotus-eyed Lord! Those who proudly think that they are liberated but do
not render devotional service unto you certainly have impure intelligence.
Although they perform severe austerities and penance, and rise up to a
high spiritual position, they fall down again because they have no respect
for devotional service to your lotus feet. (SB 10.2.32-33/ Srila
Prabhupda's translation.)
A. Jnani jivan muktas are those who do not identify with the material
world but are still embodied waiting for their prarabdha karma to expire.
The Bhagavatam says that these jnanis can fall down from their so-called
liberation (vimukta maninah). But besides this, the verse you have cited
speaks of those who think they are liberated and do not render devotional
service. Their attainment, "a higher spiritual position," does not speak
explicitly sayujya-mukti. It is not possible to attain any kind of mukti
without bhakti. A sattviki form of bhakti helps jnanis attain the Gaudiya
understanding of sayujya.
The following two verses from Caitanya-caritamrta are each supported by
Krsnadasa Kaviraja with the Bhagavata verse you asked about.
'bhaktye jivan-mukta' gunakrsta hana krsna bhaje suska-jnane
jivan-mukta aparadhe adho maje
"Those who are liberated by devotional service become more and more
attracted by the transcendental qualities of Krsna. Thus they engage in
His service. Those who are liberated by the speculative process eventually
fall down again due to an offensive mentality." (Madhya 24.131)
jnani jivan-mukta-dasa painu kari' mane vastutah buddhi 'suddha' nahe
krsna-bhakti vine
"There are many philosophical speculators (jnanis) who consider themselves
liberated but their intelligence is not purified unless they engage in
Krsna's devotional service." (Madhya 22.30)
Note that the word "jivanmukta" appears in both of these verses, implying
that the Bhagavata verse under discussion refers to jnanis who have at
best attained jivan mukti. The Bhagavatam says that one can fall from that
position. However, it is doubtful that those referred to in these
Bhagavata verses have even attained this status, nor do the verses say
that they actually have. The doubt arises because the verses speak of
having no devotion. Again, without bhakti there is no liberation--no
sayujya-mukti, and arguably no attainment of jivan mukti in pursuit of
sayujya-mukti.
Jnana-misra-bhakti is a different thing. It is bhakti mixed with jnana,
not jnana mixed with bhakti. In jnana-misra-bhakti, bhakti is predominant.
This kind of bhakti is mixed with knowledge of the majesty of God and
leads to attaining Narayana in Vaikuntha or Krsna in Dvaraka.
Sattviki-bhakti, on the other hand, is a manifestation of bhakti in the
material mode of goodness (sattva-guna). She mercifully manifests in this
form to facilitate those desirous of merging with Brahman. It is this kind
of bhakti that Advaitins speak of as a means to an end (sayujya-mukti), in
which she (bhakti) vanishes.
I have never seen any verse that clearly supports the idea that one can
fall from sayujya-mukti although Srila Prabhupada often writes in such a
way as to imply that it is possible. Nonetheless, Srila Prabhupada's
emphasis is valid: impersonal liberation is undesirable. It amounts to
only one half of the equation of mukti and is thus incomplete. This does
seem to open the door to the remote possibility of changing one's status
in sayujya, either for the better or the worse, but I have not seen any
supporting sastra pramana (scriptural evidence) or interpretation of
sastra that would be universally acceptable.
Questions or comments may be submitted at the Q&A Forum
http://www.swami.org/sanga/ or email sangaeditor@swami.org.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Moderator: sangaeditor@swami.org
Tuesday May 4 2004, Vol. VI, No. 8
Readership: 11,797
Back issue archive: http://www.eScribe.com/religion/sanga
Sanga website: http://www.swami.org/sanga
Audarya Bookstore: http://www.swami.org/merchant.mv
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~