Dasosmi

The time of death isn't just a split second moment, but the entire process of the soul exiting the body and what happens next. At that stage of leaving the body, the soul is conscious and aware, even if he wasnt aware while in the body (due to a medical condition or some other problem).

 

In that conscious state, while having exited the body, if one then turns his consciousness to Krishna, then Krishna delivers him. If on the other hand he turns his consciousness onto his bodily attachments, lamenting the loss of his body, family, etc., then he gets another chance to enjoy these things through rebirth.

 

Sometimes one is conscious both before death and after having left the body, so there is no real difference. But in the case of someone who is unconscious prior to death, the difference in awareness is more drastic prior to leaving the body and after having exited the body. In that situation he still has time to think of Krishna once his awareness is restored. And as you have pointed out, the consciousness at that stage is primarily determined but what you did in life.

 

We can practice for this every single day. This is the gift of God. When you wake up from your dream, what do you think about? You can choose to immediately think of Krishna and accept that the dream was false, or you can try to hold on to that dream and continue living your imaginary life.

 

Practice becoming detached from the dreams when you wake up and immediately put your consciousness on Lord Krishna. Doing this daily will prepare us for a similar test at the point of death, where we are given the opportunity to give up the real dream of this world.

Jai Sadhu!!

Your words are like nectar.

Believe it or not, it is absolutely natural. Detachment from matter is a natural byproduct of love of God. Don't worry, it just happens. We always have a choice, spirit or matter. Eventually the sham of matter becomes just too apparent.

Very inspiring Prabhuji!! Yamunacharya has a similar saying:

yadavadhi mama cetah krsna-padaravinde

nava-nava-rasa-dhamanudyata rantum asit

tadavadhi bata nari-sangame smaryamane

bhavati mukha-vikarah sustu nisthivanam ca

"Ever since I have been in the transcendental loving service of Krishna, realizing ever new pleasure in Him, whenever I think of sex pleasure, I spit at the thought and my lips curl with distaste."

Hare Krishna.

This is indeed very fascinating. It's almost addicting. I feel like I HAVE to write back. Perhaps it's my false ego or maybe I enjoy a friendly conversation.

Namaskar. Again your response is somewhat verbose and full of digressions. I will respond to just those parts that are relevant here..

 

If you truly believe, as most Hare Krishnas do, that the Lord is non-different from His glories, then you must accept the conclusion that the above statement by you is incorrect and unpalatable..

I believe what Krishna says:

yam imam puspitam vacam

pravadanty avipascitah

veda-vada-ratah partha

nanyad astiti vadinah

kamatmanah svarga-para

janma-karma-phala-pradam

kriya-visesa-bahulam

bhogaisvarya-gatim prati

TRANSLATION

Men of small knowledge are very much attached to the flowery words of the Vedas, which recommend various fruitive activities for elevation to heavenly planets, resultant good birth, power, and so forth. Being desirous of sense gratification and opulent life, they say that there is nothing more than this.

If Vedas glorify the Lord, then there is no question of distinguishing the Vedas from the Lord. If you claim that Vedas glorify goals other than Vishnu, then you are falling into the trap of the veda-vAda-rataH.

 

And similarly, actually conclusion of Vedas and misunderstood conclusion of Vedas are two different things.

 

Right View: The goal of Vedas is knowing Sri Vishnu

 

Wrong View: Vedas are mainly concerned with the three modes of material nature/fruitive activity.

It seems like we hit a dead end on this point. I believe:

trai-gunya-visaya veda

nistrai-gunyo bhavarjuna

nirdvandvo nitya-sattva-stho

niryoga-ksema atmavan

Translation

The Vedas deal mainly with the subject of the three modes of material nature. O Arjuna, become transcendental to these three modes. Be free from all dualities and from all anxieties for gain and safety, and be established in the self.

Then perhaps you did not read the first postingof this thread. It is entitled, "Becoming indifferent to the vedas."

This is again based on our different perspectives. I would quote you the same verses I already quated to defend the same points I have already tried to defend for the same point you have already made.

This is classic, mayavadi, utilitarian logic. Just as the mayavadis argue that bhakti is merely a means to an end (liberation) and can be dispensed with once the goal of liberation is attained, so too you argue that one can become "indifferent" to the Vedas once one has attained Sri Krishna. If you disagree with the former, then you cannot possibly disagree with the latter. That would be a double standard.

Goal of Bhakti is to serve the Supreme Lord. How can that be compared to mayavad philosophy? If you look at actions of those who attain the goal of Bhakti and the actions of Mayavadis who attain their goal, you will notice a vast difference. Thus this example is not applicable.

This is self-contradictory.

India "mainly" contains Indians. That means there are also others that are there. What's the difficulty in understanding that?

And this is like saying that the glorification of the Lord and the Lord Himself are not the same.

 

Gaudiya Vaishnavas believe that the Bhagavata Purana is the Lord Himself. That this is so is written in Jiva Gosvami's Tattva-Sandarbha. Do you accept it? Because by your logic, I can also say that there is material in the Bhagavata that does not directly concern the Lord, such as descriptions of varnashrama dharma, dynasties of great kings, etc and thus (based on your logic) conclude that the essence of the Bhagavatam is different from the contents of the Bhagavatam. Do you accept it? Why or why not?

Since we have a disagreement on the following verse, your statement above can not be applicable in this situation. It is like saying exactly what Krishna says:

trai-gunya-visaya veda

nistrai-gunyo bhavarjuna

nirdvandvo nitya-sattva-stho

niryoga-ksema atmavan

Translation

The Vedas deal mainly with the subject of the three modes of material nature. O Arjuna, become transcendental to these three modes. Be free from all dualities and from all anxieties for gain and safety, and be established in the self.

And therefore, the subject matter of the Vedas is *not* the three modes of material nature or fruitive activity. Rather it is Vishnu only which is the subject, and people only misunderstand the Vedas to be concerned with something else.

As far as my little brain allows me to understand, I have read the verse quoted above and accepted its translation as it is.

This also happens to be the view of Sri Madhvacharya who writes this in his Gita commentary. Sri Madhva does not accept the idea of "karma-kanda" or "fruitive activity" as the main gist of the Vedas. And why should he? Since that position is not supported by the Bhagavad-gita at all.

Kindly quote refrences from Sri Madvacharyas point of view since you have understood his point of view.

Let me restate it another way. If the conclusion of the Gita is Vishnu (or Krishna), and the Gita represents the essence of the Vedas, then the conclusion of the Vedas is also Vishnu. Do you agree with this?

 

Yet it is by the Vedas that Sri Krishna is known (Gita 15.15). Thus, I would have to disagree with your wording of the above. Can Sri Krishna be known by the modes of material nature? Can Sri Krishna be known by rituals whose purpose is the acquisition of material comforts?

 

You may feel that this is splitting hairs. But since Theist is advocating "being indifferent to the Vedas," it seems only reasonable to examine the underlying basis for this view, viz the idea that Vedas "deal primarily with karma kanda/modes of material nature." Is it wise to be teaching people with unregulated habits to become indifferent to the very scriptures by which they can understand the main goal of life - Vishnu? Is that not what you would call... sastra-ninda?

 

As I have indicated, using sources that both you and I accept, the conclusion of the Vedas is not the fruitive activity. On the contrary, the Vedas contain mantras that are used to worship Vishnu (also stated in ACBSP's commentary). This is not consistent with the position that Vedas "deal mainly with the modes of material nature."

 

Rituals whose goal is the acquisition of material goods cannot teach one about the ultimate goal of life which is beyond such mundane pursuits. The Vedas do not deal with fruitive activity but rather with rituals for the worship of Vishnu which are wrongly interpreted to be for the acquisition of fruitive results. Arjuna was not being advised to be "indifferent to the Vedas." He was being advised to be indifferent to the idea of rituals for the purpose of fruitive activity. This is in keeping with the context of his objections to fighting which were also based on materialistic grounds. This is also in keeping with the ideas presented in the Gita 15th and 17th chapters which indicate that Vishnu is really the essence of the Vedas and is known by and worshipped by the mantras of the Vedas.

Hare Krishna, Jahnava Nitai Prabhuji is highly qualified to answers your questions. Some thoughts crossed my mind reading your statements so I decided to share them. Please forgive any errors.

The conclusion and the entire contents are not always 100% the same.

Vedas knowing Krishna and the reader of the Vedas understanding Krishna are 2 different things. Do we understand the Vedas 100%? Krishna can not be known by anything except His own desire to be known to the individual. Therefore not only is he the greatest but he is also the smallest because simply based on our sincerity, he will reveal himself to us no matter how smart or dumb we may be.

Vedas certainly contain plenty of pages on activities in different modes. It would be sastra-ninda if anyone is denying the authority of Vedas. The point is simple. Once you achieve Krishna, then you become indifferent to the Vedas because you have reached the goal. If you reach your destination, the address you scribbled down would be of no use or harm to you. Although you may choose to hold on to it. Realised souls may act on the level ordinary people can relate to.

The Vedas deal "MAINLY" with the 3 modes. Yes they contain plenty of mantras to worship Vishnu. The conclusion and the entire contents of Vedas are not 100% the same. As you have smartly pointed out:"Because in the Vedas it is often misunderstood that attainment of heavenly pleasures is the goal, people are often not aware of the actual, hidden, or esoteric meaning which deals with Vishnu." So therefore, let us not get caught up in confusion and accept the essenes..Bhagavad Gita, which clearly tells us to surrender to Krishna.

sarva-dharman parityajya

mam ekam saranam vraja

Sripad Sankacharya says:

sarvo panishado gavo

dogdha gopala nandanah

partho vatsah sudhir bhokta

dugdham gita amritam mahat

(Gita-mahatmya 6)

(6) All the Upanishads are the cows, the one who milks the cows is Krishna, Arjuna (Partha) is the calf. Men of purified intellect are the enjoyers; the milk is the great nectar of the Gita.The only scripture is the song of the son of Devaki. The only deity is the son of Devaki. The only mantra is His Names. The only action is the service of That Deity.

ekam sastram devaki-putra-gitam

eko devo devaki-putra eva

eko mantras tasya namani yani

karmapy ekam tasya devasya seva

In this present day, people are very much eager to have one scripture, one God, one religion, and one occupation. Therefore, ekam sastram devaki-putra-gitam: let there be one scripture only, one common scripture for the whole world--Bhagavad-gita. Eko devo devaki-putra eva: let there be one God for the whole world--Sri Krsna. Eko mantras tasya namani: and one hymn, one mantra, one prayer--the chanting of His name

Hare Krishna.

It is indeed so sad to see mother cows being mistreated so much. It is even sadder to think that we are supporting such industry.

I am sure you have all heard of this argument..what about when you buy milk and offer it to Krishna. Are the cows not getting some punya by having their milk offered to the Lord?

That is an interesting analogy which illustrates the point that you are trying to make. I have no difficulty understanding the point you are trying to make, so I did not require an analogy to understand it.

 

All I have stated is that the point you are trying to make does NOT follow from the Gita verse quoted. The Gita does NOT talk about becoming "indifferent to the Vedas." Why would it, since its own authority is based on the Vedas? That does not even make sense.

 

The translations quoted are from Bhagavad gita as it is.

The verse above is text number 52.Krishna started convertation on this topic starting at text 39 where he says "Thus far I have declared to you the analytical knowledge of sankhya philosophy. Now listen to the knowledge of yoga whereby one works without fruitive result. O son of Prtha, when you act by such intelligence, you can free yourself from the bondage of works."

He goes on talking on this topic and on verses 42-43 he says "Men of small knowledge are very much attached to the flowery words of the Vedas, which recommend various fruitive activities for elevation to heavenly planets, resultant good birth, power, and so forth. Being desirous of sense gratification and opulent life, they say that there is nothing more than this."

On verse 45 and 46 he says "The Vedas mainly deal with the subject of the three modes of material nature. Rise above these modes, O Arjuna. Be transcendental to all of them. Be free from all dualities and from all anxieties for gain and safety, and be established in the Self. All purposes that are served by the small pond can at once be served by the great reservoirs of water. Similarly, all the purposes of the Vedas can be served to one who knows the purpose behind them."

On verse 49 he says "O Dhananjaya, rid yourself of all fruitive activities by devotional service, and surrender fully to that consciousness. Those who want to enjoy the fruits of their work are misers."

Then on verse 52, the verse on current discussion he says "When your intelligence has passed out of the dense forest of delusion, you shall become indifferent to all that has been heard and all that is to be heard."

It seems obvious that this verse is referring to being indifferent to the vedas that deal mainly with 3 modes of material nature by knowing who is to be known by them. It's like saying, Tom is a good person. He is also very short. Now if someone simply quotes the sentence saying he is short, then yes, there's no Tom in that sentence. But if one looks at the sentence before that, its very obvious who its referring to.

other people's scriptures are not something that i follow or would wish to follow . however i sincerely believe that there is a lot of unnecessary things and adulterations in our scriptures which need to be strained out before accepting . thats why it is said accept the bhava-artha or the inner meaning .

 

however i find the iskcon dogmatically sticks to quoting what they call vedic scriptures to fault find with someone else's philosophy or to assert their philosophical supremacy . but when it comes to other situations like winning over christian converts they happily explore other scriptures or even formulate some , which in my understanding is double standards !! this is the reason i said what i said in my last post !

 

 

 

 

well , im certainly not saying that his intention was bad . he definitely did it for welfare of those fallen souls . but if iskcon can be liberal enough to accept other scriptures as authentic why not the same with other hindu scriptures ?!!

Dear Sambya,

(we are way off the topic from the original post).

I agree bhava-artha or the inner meaning should be the focus of our journey back home. Let us not then get carried away and blame a certain institution for producing few contradictory points while it creates wonderful opportunities for many many souls to take shelter of the Lord. It is very clear what ISKCON's intentions are. So let's look at the intention of this wonderful society rather than pouring salt on the few scratches it has.

With all due respect, I would like to make a humble suggestion. I agree with your point of view on many subject matters regarding our scriptures. I would like to beg you to kindly stop talking about "ISKCON" as a whole based on certain actions or words of its selected few members. If we have an issue with a certain person, it is better we address it to that individual rather than blaming the entire society. Few spots on the moon does not prevent it from spreading its rays. Lord Jagannaths glories are being heard in so many corners of the world. Is this not a reason to rejoice? ISKCON is one and its members are many. Blaming the society blames all its members. The ideal leader of ISKCON is non other than His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada. You have already come to two conclusions (1) Bhava artha (2) Prabhupadas clear intentions. Let's reap the fruits of those to conclusions.

Hare Krishna.

did he ?!! ho ho ho .....................fine now show me scriptural evidence . if you cannot then admit that iskcon often deviated from what you call "vedic ways" and does not stick to scriptures as steadfastly as it claims !!

If you accept other religious teachings as scriptures, then there is a great deal of explanation regarding this issue taught by the Mormons. For your convenience, I found a quote that may enlighten your understanding on this matter.

Mormon website:

"To the Mormon, salvation means resurrection from the dead. To the Mormon, eternal life means exaltation after the resurrection. It is the goal of the Mormon to obtain exaltation, because everyone ever born into the world will be resurrected, but according to Mormon belief, only the select Mormon believers will be exalted. Even among Mormon believers, most will be exalted, but only a few will actually attain to the ultimate, that of becoming a god and ruling over their own planet".

It is further explained that Jesus too rules a planet of his own. Our Srila Prabhupada was preaching to people from all sorts of backgrounds and thus he quoted many references from different sources with the aim of spreading love of god. I am not implying that he quoted Mormon philosophy (maybe he did) but the point is there are lots of refrences on this matter. From vedic point of view we can easily accept the possibility by looking at many examples of great devotees that have achived and rule planets of their own.

Hare Krishna.

Thank you very much to all of you wonderful devotees for your kind reply.

I ( and most indians like me ) would laugh at people at you who try to pose iskcon as something totally transcendental to material nature and yet a new scandal surfaces every fortnight !! has anything been a greater failure than iskcon in history of religious movements ( im not speaking of numerous now-extinct tribal cults ) ?!!

 

and probably you are not aqquainted with modern theories of physics( not suprising with the americans though ) which is increasingly proving the creation to be similar as envisioned by advaita and such other philosophies !

 

read books like 'tao of physics' for a little better education .........

Hare Krishna. Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Guru and Gauranga. You are certainly very senior to me both by birth and also by education. You seem to know so much about everything. I tried hard not to reply to your post but I felt I had to. I do not think ISKCON is a failure at all. I know its one of the most successful societies ever made. Perhaps you are so far ahead in spiritual life that you can't appreciate the little things ISKCON centers around the world help with for some beginners like myself. I am sure you have valid reasons for your conclusions. It would be nicer if you shared them with people in private because this forum is open to the general public. Certainly every fruit bearing tree has some rotten fruits but I would not go as far to chop down the entire tree. Perhaps it is for selfish reasons I ask you not to post such negative thoughts about ISKCON. I am here to learn and grow in spiritual life and the aim of this forum seems to be just for that reason. I do not think such negative comments will encourage us to talk open heartedly and teach us to love one another as spiritual brothers and sisters rather than Indian and American. Please accept my humble obeisances and forgive me if I made any mistakes in my assumption.

Hare Krishna.

This question may be more suitable for those who were introduced to KC via ISKCON and those currently involved with ISKCON. I had approched a senior devotee with this question once but he did not get back to me.

I am in a very confused stage of my life rite now. I was fortunate enough to have the privilege to attend Vrindavan Gurukula since a very young age. Thus I am eternally indebted to Srila Prabhupada for his causeless mercy. I am now at a point in life where I feel that I should take initiation to be formally connected to the Guru Parampara.

Having been brought up in ISKCON I strongly feel that I should stay within the house of Prabhupada and be initiated under his authority. Or is this my ignorance? Am I committing an offense by having such thoughts? After all Krishna is specially dear to so many Gaudiya devotees and there are plenty of sources that are linked to the Parampara system.

My dilemma has been further troubled after I saw the RITVIK debate video.

I would really appriciate any sincere answers to help me.

Money is the creator, protector and destroyer in the kali. Would Kali be terminated by 2012 and a new cycle begin where love be the creator, protector and destroyer of this earth? What are the symptoms of Kali and how to know it has peaked?

Predicted in Brahma-vaivarta Purana 4.129.*. The fourth part of the Brahma-vaivarta is called Krsna-janma-khanda. Chapter 129 is called Golokarohanam, because it describes how Krsna returns to His abode. The general dialogue is between Lord Narayana and Narada Muni. This specific dialogue is between Lord Krsna and Mother Ganga. Verse 49 is a question by Ganga, verses 50-60 are Krsna's answer.

Text 49:

bhaagiirathy uvaaca

he naatha ramaNaSreStha

yaasi golokamuttamam

asmaakaM kaa gatiScaatra

bhaviSyati kalau yuge

"Ganges said: O protector, Supreme enjoyer, on your departure for the perfect abode, Goloka, thereafter what will be my situation in the age of Kali?"

Text 50

Srii-bhagavaan uvaaca

kaleH paMcasahasraaNi

varSaaNi tiSTha bhu-tale

paapaani paapino yaani

tubhyaM daasyaMti snaanataH

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: On the earth 5,000 years of Kali will be sinful and sinners will deposit their sins in you by bathing."

Text 51

man-maMtropaasakasparSaad

bhasmibhutaani tatkSaNaat

bhaviSyaMti darSanaacca

snaanaadeva hi jaahnavi

"Thereafter by the sight and touch of those who worship Me by My mantra, all those sins will be burnt."

Text 52

harernaamaani yatraiva

puraaNaani bhavaMti hi

tatra gatvaa saavadhaanam

aabhiH saarddhaM ca SroSyasi

"There will be chanting of the name of Hari and reading of the [bhagavata] Purana. Reaching such a place, attentively hear.

[note: In Puranic language, when "Purana" is used alone it refers to Bhagavata Purana. Otherwise it will specify Skanda Purana, Visnu Purana, etc.]

Text 53:

puraaNa SravaNaaccaiva

harernaamaanukiirtanaat

bhasmibhutaani paapaani

brahma-hatyaadikaani ca

"Sinful reactions including the killing of a brahmana can be nullified be hearing the Purana and chanting of the names of Hari in the manner of devotees."

Text 54:

bhasmibhutaani taanyeva

vaiSNavaaliMganena ca

tRNaani SuSkakaaSthaani

dahaMti paavako yathaa

"Just as dry grass is burnt by fire, by the embrace of Vaisnavas all sins are burnt."

Text 55:

tathaapi vaiSNavaa loke

paapaani paapinaamapi

pRthivyaaM yaani tiirthaani

puNyaanyapi ca jaahnavi

"O Ganges, the whole planet will become a pilgrimage sight by the presence of Vaisnavas, even though it had been sinful"

Text 56:

madbhaktaanaaM SariireSu

santi puteSu saMtatam

madbhaktapaadarajasaa

sadyaH putaa vasundharaa

"In the body of My devotees remains eternally [the purifier]. Mother Earth becomes pure by the dust of the feet of My devotees."

Text 57:

sadyaH putaani tiirthaani

sadyaH putaM jagattathaa

manmaMtropaasakaa vipraa

ye maducchiSRbhojinaH

"It will be the same in the case of pilgrimage sites and the whole world. Those intelligent worshipers of My mantra who partake My remnants will purify everything."

Text 58

maameva nityaM dhyaayaMte

te mat praaNaadhikaaH priyaaH

tadupasparSamaatreNa

puto vaayuSca paavakaH

"They are more dear to Me than My life, who everyday meditate only on Me. The air and fire become pure simply even by their indirect touch."

[Note: Sastra says that of all material elements, fire and air are always pure. Even though the air carries some impurities it always remains itself pure. This verse indicates that the Vaisnavas will purify even the pure elements of fire and air, therefore the purifying potency of the Vaisnavas referred to in this verse is not material but completely spiritual. I.e. the air and fire are _already_ materially pure, therefore the Vaisnavas purity is spiritual and not material.]

Text 59:

kaler daSa-sahasraaNi

madbhaktaaH saMti bhu-tale

ekavarNaa bhaviSyaMti

madbhakteSu gateSu ca

"For 10,000 years of Kali such devotees of Mine will fill the whole planet. After the departure of My devotees there will be only one varna [outcaste]."

Text 60:

madbhaktaSunyaa pRthivi

kaligrastaa bhaviSyati

etasminnaMtare tatra

kRSNadehaadvinirgataH "Devoid of My devotees, the earth will be shackled by Kali. Saying this, Krsna departed."

What are the proper steps for acquiring a Guru? I read and hear how important a Guru is and how its not even possible to reach the Lord without the causeless mercy of a Guru. I also hear that a guru is revealed to you when you are ready. Perhaps I can't make correct judgement with my mental speculations but as far as my mind is concerned, I am ready. I feel that there is no use of chasing anything in this world because that's all I have been doing for so many years and I am still incomplete. I have decided to completely surrender my life to a Guru.

Is it possible to go back home simply by studying from different scriptures or must one get a Guru? Please advise.