arjun2826

I am sad. I was born and leave abroad. I have indian origin. My parent want me to get married (arranged marriage) in India and to come back abroad with my wife.

I already love a white and catholic girl. My parent refuse to see/accept her despite my love. They say I have to return in india to make ganesh chaturthi each year as my father did. If i am married with a catholic, I will be excluded of the community (this doesnt disturb me as i was abroad so i never belonged to this community), but consequently i won't be able to do ganesh chaturthi (social festival).

I want to honour my father by doing this fest. I love him very much, I love my mother very much, and my girlfriend too.

Does anyone can help me please to find a solution. I am sad. If i don't find any solution, i hope I will die soon as this pain is too much for me.

Please help.

Here is a wellknown topic, but still I canno't get one and definitive answer.

So I will tell you my story :

It is the story of an indian origin guy living abroad and who fall in love with a white catholic girl. His parent refuse absolutely this union because :

- it will bring shame, unhappiness on his indian indian family living abroad too

- their son won't be able to "put fire" on the funeral of his parent (because he is married to a catholic girl, and is no more "pure")

- they worship Ganesh Chaturti in India in the house of the grandparent. Their son is ok to worship Ganesh abroad, in the place where he lives. But according to his parents, he cannot do it outside of the grandparent home in India because of religious or social "rules" (I don't know which exactely). And as in India, he will be excluded of the community, he has no choice to seperate of his white girlfriend to be able to worship Ganesh.

- As he is the only one boy in this family, he has no choice to get married to his girlfriend if he want to worship Ganesh Chaturti

Could you help me please ? Is there anybody of temple who can tell what is right or not. Should he continue his relation with that girl according to these difficulties or these reason are wrong ?

Please bring me your help.

Thanks for the information.

It's said that under the english colonisation, indian were not allowed to gather themselves. It was indeed a risk of indian revolution for english people.

That's why Tilak told the purpose of Ganesh meeting was only religious, not political.

Then, english allowed such meetings.

Of course, it is said that during these meetings, indian were talking of political topics against english.

If this is true, it is funny that ganesh chaturthi, as we know it today, is a consequence of political need first, then religious need. Am I wrong ?

From Holidays in India - Indian Festival 2009, Indian Holidays 2009, Indian Festivals 2009, Festivals Of India :

" Ganesh Chaturthi is a major festival of Maharashtra, where thousands of gigantic idols of lord Ganesh are immersed by huge processions of worshipers shouting, Ganpati Bapa Morya. With time, the festival has now gained popularity all over India, with celebrations in south India and Gujarat being no less spectacular than those of Maharashtra. The year 1893 brought a major change in the celebration of Ganesh Chaturthi. It was in this year that Lokmanya Tilak, an Indian nationalist, social reformer and freedom fighter reformed the annual Ganesh festival, from being a private celebration into a grand public event.

Till 1893, Ganesh Chaturthi celebrations were a private affair, not done on a public scale. People used to celebrate it in a traditional manner. It was Lokmanya Tilak who popularized Ganesh Chaturthi as a national festival, after visualizing its cultural importance. The reason for this was to enhance the sense of belongingness as well as togetherness among the citizens. It was also done with an aim to build a new grassroots unity between the Brahmins and the non-Brahmins. "

Hi all,

In this article, it is said that till 1893, Ganesh Chaturthi celebrations were a private affair, not done on a public scale. Could you please bring me some more detail on it ?

I imagine that even before 1893, Ganesh was brought in water at the end of the festival. This was certainely not done alone but with all the people of the village. So it was certainely a social work, a social festival, done on "a public scale". So I cannot understand this article.

Could you please explain what was the difference between before 1893 and after this date ?

Thanks

no its not a devil sign or something like that !! in fact ancient hindus frequently used alcoholic beverages like soma and sura in celbrations and even in rituals !

 

it is definately a pleasure item ! but from a purely spiritual point of view pleasure items are the one that distracts and clouds the mind most ..........so for a spiritual aspirant such things are strictly forbidden , one who is not so inclined towards spirituality can definately carry on with his drinking !!

Ok, I understand your answer and like it.

Could you please tell me what you called spirituality ? Is it faith ? is it practicing rituals ?

So speaks the Drunkards.

7th time you repeat the same thing

Don't loose credibility little sephiroth .. ;-)

arjun2826 :

Hmph ... you cannot understand why I have called you a drunkard, did you?

 

Mmmmhh.. seems really you have problem to say briefly things LOL... It's the fourth time you repeat the same thing. Did you drink or are you normal ? ;-)...

arjun2826 :

What you have is Self-Excuse. Nothing more. You have no discipline and you will NOT progress in Spiritualism. All you could ever be is a fellow who uses excuses to remain in an ignorant state. That is all you will ever be.

 

How do you know I will not progress in spirtualism. Can you say you progressed more than me ?

arjun2826 :

Your drinking habits have NOTHING to do with Medicine. It is merely another excuse for a drunkard to drink.

 

It is the fifth time you repeat I am a drunkard.. LOL

Please don't try to bring confusion and answer my previous question : Imagine for medical needs you have to take alcohol or morphine for example. Will you refuse because it is the "Evil's sign" as you said ? or will you accept ?

I know you cannot answer : if you refused and remain consistent with what you said, you risk your health, and if you accept, you won't be consistent with what you wrote earlier... This is the dilemma of giving such no sense answers .. ;-)

arjun2826 :

You are fooling yourself and busy trying to fool others with your excuses. THAT is what you're doing.

I think you are not able to go deeply in some topics. Maybe you get scared of it (and I can understand), maybe you never tried it, so consequentely, you speak of things you don't know, you accuse other, and repeat 5 times the same sentence LOL... So it is funny, and you lose credibility.

Maybe you should try to understand the topic, the problem, and try to build an credible argument.

Drinking a lot makes of people drunkard

But drinking sometimes doesn't mean this. But maybe if you didn't understand my writting, you will certainely feel the need to say a sixth time that I am a drunkard .. LOL

Please try to not make me laugh once more ;-)

The line between faith and superstition is a very fine one. The general rule applied by most people is "What I believe is faith. What you believe is Superstition.":)

And even in some state in india, they don't even know what superstition is. Consequently everything is faith, everything is asked by God...

Arjun ji,

 

Rituals or any religious activities in Hinduism has its own significance. Sometimes, people that are inquisitive to know the underlying significance of any rituals tend to ask the wrong kind of people. This leads to confusion and many more. So I suggest, if you have some questions about some ritual, ask any reputed swamis or people that are well-versed in what they are doing.

 

Is there any swamis on this website ? :-)

i do not drink because i dont like drinking . neither is it supported by scriptures nor did i like it at any point of time .

 

yes , all those activities that you have reffered also clouds your mind . so in the final stages one has to transcend hunger and sleep . but thats the last stage . and these activities are indispensible and are basic requirements . either you die or you continue doing these . but that is definately not the case with drinking alcohol . that is a voluntary activity and its power to cloud the mind is thousand times stronger than that of ordinary thirst or hunger . so a spiritual aspirant should begin by discarding those habits that can be done away with .

 

also most of the mental agitation and cloudiness can be attributed to ourselves . think of a situation when you are infatuated for any other person . the power to cloud and agitate the mind is tremendous !! thing of greed for money , lust , thirst for power , love towards pets etc etc . these are all created by man and have much much more power than hunger or sleeping . when you analyze you shall see that it is self induced attachments that disturb the mind more . the natural agitators are highly insignificant .

Ok I think I understand what you mean concerning alcohol and 'self induced attachements'. But I have doubt concerning some of your interpretation.

Concerning self induced attachements, I totally agree with your point of view. I think even this argument is still true for all external factor (for example somebody who makes you feel angry, but you must stay cool). In this last case it is called 'stoicism'

Now what I disagree is that alcohol must not be seen as the devil sign. It must be a pleasure like dancing, singing, laughing.

Plus, i am sure there is a no ha restriction in any scriptures.. Is it ?

Anyway, i respect your way of life.. If you feel good with it.

sambya :

 

 

 

Actually, it is not impossible, but very hard. Gautama Buddha have taught us that (if you accept).

 

According to the Buddha, performing rituals itself doesn't help one achieve Enlightnment (like what you said) without knowing why one does it. He states that blind faith and blindly doing rituals will blind a person and it will not help him to achieve Enlightment.

I totally agree with you. And this is what I am trying to do

arjun2826 :

 

 

 

Don't be absurd and don't laugh. Spiritualism is not a laughing matters. And No, I do not miss doing Evil things.

 

 

 

Yes, you are "unclean" Physically and Mentally. Almost ALL religions on the Planet (except maybe Christianity) have stated that drinking alcholol is bad for you. Even in Islam, it is stated that the alcholol you consume will stay in your blood for 40 days (and within this 40 days, you are UNCLEAN).

 

Right now, in my eyes, you look like a drunkard who is trying to justify his drinking habit.

 

 

 

Eating your vegetable does not make you a good person. It will only give you a temporary satisfaction and in the end, you will still be a drunkard at the end of the day.

 

Spiritualism requires DISCIPLINE. Without Discipline and Self-Control, you cannot achieve Spiritualism. Right now, you don't even have the discipline to restrict the food and drink which enters your mouth.

 

 

 

Excuse of the drunkards. They always talk about how they are in control and how they could stop drinking anytime they want. The truth is - they are never in control. The bottle controls them.

 

Evil IS Evil - and alcholol is one of that Evil. Only fools will choose to get to know it, thinking that they could "control" themselves once it takes hold.

Ok, to summarize what you said :

- you repeated three times that I was a drunkard LOL. One time was enough. Seems you have difficulties to say briefly things LOL.

- Spiritualism need discipline and self control.

To answer your notices :

First : Drinking once a week for example doesn't make of you a drunkard. I don't get surprised you say this because you never drunk I suppose and I am sure you talk of someting you don't know. In that case, in my opinion, people should not talk LOL.

Second : Spiritualism need discipline and self control. I totally agree, and this is what I do. Only, I have my fashion to do. I feel good with that. You have yours, you feel good with yours. I don't criticize.

Third : What about if a medicine contains alcohol ? Would you say that you will never authorize it because it contains alcohol and would prefer risk the life of somebody that is closed to you ?

spiritually speaking it does mean your are unclean . ill explain how --

 

the main point in indian spirituality is that we are illusioned by maya into believing ourselves as things which we are not . we identify ourselves with silly little temporal objects and constantly suffer as a result . to realize and come out of this persistent delusion is what is called moksha or nirvana and the practise to come out of its sticky clutches is called sadhana . this moksha calls for perfect purity in mind body and thought . this includes things like perfect truthfulness and perfect brahmancharya even in mind . it might sound utopian and ansurd but it is factually possible and can be easily seen in the mystics of ancient and modern india . now things like alcohol actually deludes the already ignorant mind even further ! one is not able to remain in proper senses and affects you discrimitaing power and buddhi - the chief characterisitcs which diffrentiates us from animals . thus it clouds your mind . in this way it instantly harms your sadhana and makes you ' 'unclean' . here 'unclean' means disturbed conciousness or restless mind . all the rituals , puja sadha that we do is to calm this ever restless mind so that we can catch the reflection of our self in out mind .

 

Ok : what you mean is that to reach moksha, we need to be clean. Alcohol clouds our mind. Ritual at the contrary helps us to come out of this persistent delusion.

Does it mean that as a hindu, you never drink ?

Now, I know lots of acts that clouds our mind :

Imagine you didn't eat. You are hungry : This clouds your mind.

Imagine you eat to much. You feel sleepy : This clouds your mind.

Imagine you feel a pain. You feel to cry : This clouds your mind.

Imagine you get scared. There is automaticaly adrenaline in your blood sent by your brain : This clouds you mind.

What I mean is that : even if you don't take any substance (like alcohol for example), your body produces its own substance. Consequentely, it "clouds your mind".

So if I share your point of view, that would mean that man shoud not feel sleepy after eating to much, should not feel hungry if he didn't eat ... to summarize should not have any feelings.. Do you think it is consistent, and this is realistic ?

I never drink alcohol when I pray. For me it is only a question of respect for God.

there are numerous causes why people follow rituals here in india . for most it is mixture of following tradition and getting a smooth material life . when asked these people would say " our forefathers have done it " or " its compulsory " or " im not suppossed to break tradition . no one feel imposed or pressurised . its in the very nature of indian people to folloe tradition . they accept and love them just like eating sleeping or washing . it is a part of everyday life . it is not possible to understand this apparently strange psychology through western minds .

 

then there are another group who want self realization and love these rituals . thn ofcourse there is a minority group which is heavily influenced by some other material philosophies or western materialism and shuns such activities . fear of punishment from god is low in india than in western countries . here people often worship to get blessings from god to help smoothen their lives . they might be scared that such blessings would stop without worship , but they are not scared that god will punish them .

 

rituals are not a restriction of freedom in india . at least thats what majority thinks . in fact freedom is so high in india that you can remain a hindu without ever having visited any temple even once !

Ok, to summurize, what you mean is that rituals are performed because it is :

- a tradition. As they are used to doing it, they don't feel pressurised (I agree)

- a way to get blessings from god (ok)

- not a fear of punishment from god (I know lots of indian who thinks the contrary and try to make you scared...)

Nope only my grandmother does this also only some of it.I dont think in this way exact.

Anyway i told you how these rituals work.Remember.

The Rituals also depend on each sampradaya.I dont see any one in my family doing all this in the same exact way like you do it.

Ask your family where they learnt these from.

Remember i showed you a puraan a ganesh puraan.Did i show you?

The rituals mentioned there do you remember.

Sorry Sant, I don't understand all the words

'Sampradaya' and 'puraan'

Can you give an example of these morning ritulas.

I still dont get it.Are you forced to do it.

Ok. I am leaving abroad. Overhere, in the morning in the appartement, I wake up, have bath, pray quickly god as my parent told me since I am young, have breakfast, and go to work. This is my routine, shortly said.

Now imagine, now I am in India. I wake up in the house, have bath, then have to do Puja as all my family in India perform it. It means, go outside with your towel on you, pick up some flowers (around 15), put one flower on each deitie, pray all the gods, put the yellow and red "powder" on all deities, take some coton, make it as fine as a thread, put it in a small plate with oil, light the coton then ring the small bell while praying god and drawing circle with the plate in the hand. Then I have to go outside of the house allways with the towel on you with some water, pray the tulsi, put the yellow or red powder on the tulsi, throw some water on it and near it with eyes closed, then burn some incense.

All this rituals must be done in one exact order (that I don't remember now ;-) ), according to my family in India.

First, nobody force me to do this, but as somebody must do once a day, I have to do it because I am in India, otherwise people will criticize.

Secondly, I am sure some clever people invented these rituals several hundreds years ago with a meaning to that. But actually I don't understand it, my family overthere perform it without wondering this way (plus you should'nt ask this kind of question, because it would mean you reconsider the ancestror logic...) and consequentely, they are not able to answer my question.

Third : Even if there was a logic to this ritual hundreds years ago, I wonder if this logic is still valid today.

Four : If the aim of this ritual is to make us meditate on our life, on our way of life (that is a very good thing in my opinion), I think there are other way to meditate instead of putting flowers on each deitie in the morning ...

Well I hope you didn't think I was criticizing anybody. It was not my goal. I am just trying to understand some different way of life and maybe practice it if I am convinced of it, and if it belongs to my 'dharma'.

in india things were a bit different . although numerous contradictory thoughts and sects existed in this soil no one tried to destroy the other . there was mutual coexistence in all feilds . and this accomodating universal nature of hindus are well known.

Hi Sambya,

- don't you think that the accomodation of numerous contradictory as you said is only in reality an unablelity of being consistent ?

-In western countries, there is the same inconsistency: on one hand science, on the other hand religion. But people are free to believe in both. And actually, they often do without condemning religion as you said. Otherwise catholicism would disapear, wouldn't it ?

-They believe in both because as I said earlier science brings sometime answers and god brings allways hope. But indian are same :

An example : somebody has cancer. What would you do ? See a doctor and pray. It is same in western countries.

recently modern physics have also discovered the strange similarities between the indian spiritual philosophies and this has further strengthened the conviction of hindus both on science and religion .

Could you please precise with examples please ?

This is very interesting because this topic is all about controlling your life or being submitted to rituals.

Rituals were invented by our ancestrors. Because these people were so clever, they understood that eating vegetable was good for health even if science at that time was not there to prove it.

They understood that doing puja every morning was bringing a good soul, a kind of internal peace. You remind from where you come, your deities, your place in this world, and the importance of things, thoughts, family..

But don't you think, you can get all these benefits with another way :

For example eating by yourself more vegetables, more fruits, less meat, making more sports, drinking less alcohol, sleeping normal time...

Don't you think, you can spend for example 10 minutes a day (when you want) to meditate and do the work that is supposed to be done during puja for example ?

It is all about controlling you life like an adult responsible... not being fully submitted to rules (without sometimes even understanding it) like a child...

What do you think of it ? Maybe I am wrong. Please correct, if so.

Science brings sometimes answers

God brings allways hope

Freedom to do what? Drink alcholol, indulge in free sex, party all night long in disco?

This is really funny because I never thought about that. But strangely, YOU fast refered to free sex, alcohol, night party. Do you have any complex with these things ? Do you miss them ?? LOL

I drink alcohol sometimes, it doesn't mean I am not clean "mentally or physically". It only means I like good tastes. Plus some alcohol like wine or champagne are said to be good for health is you drink little quantity. And I don't feel any complex with that. I know I control it because I drink very little and it's a pleasure. But seems, you never drunk, may be you don't even know the taste, but still you judge things by apparence like a child would do it.

While to someone like you, this could be considered as "restriction to freedom", to the practitioners it is an exercise for the Mind, Body and Soul.

Sure it is a way to keep in good health.

To keep in good mind ? I don't know. If people don't share the point of view of rituals, they won't be good in mind.

Plus, if you don't do rituals doesn't mean you will not have exercise for mind body or soul. You can do sports, eat good products with fish, vegetables, chicken, fruits.

And if you are happy doing this, you will plus be in a good soul.

You see, I think it is better to have a good taste of life and to control it, better than getting scared of it and judging apparences without even knowing what it is about.

Which rituals?

What happened about the marriage?

Hi Sant,

Rituals as puja every morning. Deity procession and all ritual linked to samskara.

Concerning the mariage, nothing is still done. Fight in family is still going on. Let time do its work and let see..

Einstein was telling that little science take you far of god, and many science brings you closer to him.

That means that when you start to understand some physics law, you think everything is understandable with science theory.

But actually, when you go further in science, you can see that you cannot find out other physics law because it is too difficult. And when difficulties arrive, people usually need hope, so then they need God.

Hinduism is one of the religion that counts the most rituals.

Everywhere in India people make ritual.

But why do they really practice them ?

Is it by faith ? If this was true, so they would be able to explain the reason, the history of this ritual. But they often don't.

Is it by superstition? This means for example that if they don't practice, they will be punished by God. So in case, it is better to do.

Is it a social work ? With religion and its rituals, each person doesn't stay alone and is taken in a group. Consequently, rituals are performed only because if you don't you will be excluded from your surounding group, criticized by your neibourghood...

Rituals exist because of faith? Because of superstition? Or because of social pressure ?

Answer might be a mix of three sure.

In this case, exepted for the first answer, don't you think rituals are more a restriction of freedom ?

Actually, if this was not true, that would mean that some people are cheating in temples.

And as these people are very god believers, I don't think they could do this.

Afterwards, there may be an other explanation for their so strange behavior.

Does anybody have an explanation ? Isn't it strange ?

It is said that brahmanas are scriptures explaining the meanings of rituals.

Why do we do them, what is the sense of it, should we still practice them ?

Do you know where I could find any summary of brahmanas on the web ?

Thanks