Devarsirat

"but you have not explained how is possible for a conditioned soul to approach a guru who is living in goloka vrindavan, asking questions, serve him and be accepted as a sisya or a diksa disciple in srila prabhupada's life... even if difficult, there was the possibility, to approach, to ask, to be accepted, to be refused not now.. for conditioned souls..

so where is the teacher/pupil relationship?"

Thats excactly the point, only a self-realized soul can understand another self- realized soul properly and such a relationship is very very high.

But the ritviks must be all self-realized, even totally new ritviks, just having shaved up. They all say they have been initiated by Srila Prabhupada and

they might have accepted Srila Prabhupada as spiritual master, but this does not mean Srila Prabhupada has accepted them, so their relationship as Guru disciple is imaginary.

It is not that Srila Narayana Maharaja disagrees with the ritivik theory as continuation for the disciplic succession, He and others have to disagree because it is sastra which disagrees and therefor Srila Prabhupada would have never chosen it, he could not have done so, because it is not Sri Krishnas instruction and Srila Prabhupada tought Bhagavad Gita AS IT IS in capital letters. He himself always thought us never to change anything from what is written down and that is why we do not find anything in His books which are all "AS IT IS" about Him wanting His society to continue functioning with the ritvik system, its just not there, bass!

This does not mean the Iskcon guru system is bonafied either btw. Over and over we have seen that so called spiritual masters in Iskcon have fallen very badly which is totally contrary to what the Bhagavad Gita states, which is that the genuine spiritual master has always been a member of the disciplic succession and that he never falls down. This is true and a fact.

This means then that Iskcon guru system is full of faults. This and all the guru falldowns cast a huge negative shadow unto iskcon which to this day has not been able to admit these mistakes and address this problem to everyones satisfaction.

Srila Prabhupada said just before He passed away to some of His closest disciples that He wanted them to become Guru, but that the training was not complete. So this means it had to be completed, but they started running b4 they could walk and the result we all know.

They did not want to be trained they wanted everything now and then, but the question is who was supposed to train them, this no one is asking.

Even so it is the most important question and the answer if accepted could bring everything back to harmony.

But there you are, I personally believe Srila Prabhupada was appointing Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja to complete the spiritual training of the "choosen ones"

Dear Prabhus

Please accept my dandavats pranams

All glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga

All glories to Sri Sri Radha Vinode Bihariji

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna

Krishna Krishna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama

Rama Rama Hare Hare

I have recorded and produced several CDs which can be sold anywhere and which are very well accepted by the public.

To find out more, please be so kind and visit

www.grimsbyhypnosis.co.uk/wholesale.html

Haribol

Ys Devarsirat das

Thank You

Posted by Vedesu

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Further, it is the injunction of the Bhakti-sandarbha of Sri Jiva Goswami that only one on the transcendental platform can associate with a non-manifest personality. Srila Prabhupada is always with the sincere disciple in the form of his instructions, but the degree to which we are able to associate with him is limited by our degree of realization. For example, Krishna's pastimes are eternally going on in Vrindavan, but now they are unmanifest. Only one with the vision described by Narottama das Thakur in Prarthana will see the land made of cintamani, the kalpa-vriksa trees, and Krishna performing His pastimes with His associates. In the same manner, Srila Prabhupada is here with us, but our ability to associate with him is limited by our degree of faith and realization.---Swami B.B. Vishnu </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Srila Jiva Gosvami, following the previous acaryas, has inculcated the conclusions of the scriptures in the six theses called the Sat-sandarbhas. False devotees who have very little knowledge of such conclusions fail to achieve pure devotion for want of zeal in accepting the favorable directions for devotional service given by self-realized devotees.---Adi-lila 2.117 purport </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

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Everything needed for becoming a preme bhakta is in his books. If you are thinking you have exhausted the vani of your spiritual master I can only suggest you are in deep illusion on this point.

No I dont think i have exhausted the vani of Srila Prabhupada, what kind of term is that anyway? I am questioning the ability of a neophite devotee to conceive of HDG vani in such a way, as to understand what Srila Prabhupada would want in particular situations.

Like ritvik for example they think they understand Srila Prabhupada and according to my understanding they got it completely wrong, we both according to each other, follow exactly what we think Srila Prabhupada wanted and that we are guided by Srila Prabhupada.

Now we are arguing about it, but if Srila Prabhupada would be physically present to put this right, He would do so and we would all understand.

So there

Your missing the point Guruvani Prabhu

The point I am making is that they both had a good relationship to each other and that it is clear that Srila Prabhupada thought highly of Srila Narayana maharaja.

Its not important at all for Srila Narayana Maharaja to have the authorisation to preach or do anything for that matter. He has His own math and He is obviously empowered to preach, then who gives the empowerment? It is Krishna Himself who empowers us to preach.

Someone who is not empowered can not preach, he can not even make one devotee, but Narayana maharaja has tens of thousands of "none x iskcon" disciples, all following proper siddhanta and the same philosophy you belive in, so there should be no quarrel.

He does occassionally pick up again and again devotees from Iskcon, so what? Considering that Iskcon has failed to keep them enthusiastic and they felt that they have no proper guidance there, is it not the vaisnavas mercy to help them?

He certainly does not canvas for them, He has His own math which is huge, He has no need for Iskcon or anyone from Iskcon, in fact He stated this more then ones.

Srila Prabhupada : "Those, whose judgment is made of mundane stuff, being unable to enter into the spirit of the all-loving controversies among pure devotees, due to their own want of unalloyed devotion, are apt to impute to the devotees their own defects of partisanship and opposing views." Brahma-samhita 5.37 purport (p.72, BBT edition)

Letters from Srila Prabhupada to Narayana Maharaja are not the concern or business of the disciples of Srila Prabhupada.

They are irrelevant in establishing whether or not Srila Prabhupada wanted ISKCON to take siksha from Narayan Maharaja.

 

There is not one letter or instruction from Srila Prabhupada that has ever recommemded his devotees to take association or instruction of Narayan Maharaja.

 

Thousands of ISKCON devotees were within a stones throw to the Matha where Narayana Maharaja stayed for years, but Srila Prabhupada never once instructed any ISKCON devotee to go see Narayana Maharaja for siksha or even to offer obeisances.

 

Such instruction from Srila Prabhupada to ISKCON devotees simply don't exist.

Originally Posted by Guest devarsirat:

"Book knowledge yes, but other things I doubt come directly from Srila Prabhupada, for the same reason as it is it is stated, that we can not hear or see the supersoul.

 

They can not hear the supersoul but they can hear Prabhupada?

I dont think so, and if they say "we never said we can hear Srila Prabhupada" then what good is your guidance? Because that is the ritvik system Srila Prabhupada used when He was physically present here."

 

What a pile of unmitigated nonsense, which is hardly surprising when you defy Srila Prabhupada:

 

 

get your point, still I believe, that only another very highly advanced devotee will be able to know what Srila Prabhupada would say in such and such situation, or what advice He would give in a particular circumstance.

Not everyone is a clearvoyant you know

Apart from this i feel that i am defending Srila Prabhupada rather then defying Him, I dont think Srila Prabhupadas ability to appear and let us know what He wants, is in question,

not in my mind anyway, I question our ability to conceive and understand what He would decide,choose,speak,want or not want, apart from whats written in the books.

To understand this a newcomer should not be educated to believe that this would be possible for him as a kanistha. I do believe however that another Uttama Adhikari like Srila Prabhupada would factually able to do so.

Thats why it is said that in order to understand the supersoul, the spiritual master appears in front of us and since the spiritual master is an expansion of the supersoul and Srila Prabhupada is not anymore in front of us in His physical form, we will need another Topmost spiritual master who is another genuine expansion of the supersoul to be directly in front of us....and so one and on and on and on into the far away future, since the last 5000 years

Anyway, I was making the point that Srila Prabhupadas consciousness was never defined to Iskcons borders, thats all.

Srila Prabhupada did ask Srila Narayana maharaja to come and preach side by side with Him, that is a fact and true.

At the time Srila Narayana maharaja was busily engaged in Srila Kesava Maharajas service and could not go, anyway from many letters Srila Prabhupada and Srila Narayana maharaja exchanged it becomes very clear that they both had an devotionally intimate and very friendly relationship.

Srila Prabhupada in a letter To Srila Narayana maharaja

"Our relationship is certainly based on spontanious love. That is why there is no chance of us forgetting one another.....From the first time i saw you, i have been your constant wellwisher. At his first sight of me Srila Prabhupada also saw me with such love.....

Srila Prabhupada also writes in a letter dated May &th 1967

.....in all the Gaudya Mathas I think that you are the real Guru Sevaka, so I always correspond with you and I always give my full love and affection to you"

There are many more letters which prove how Srila Narayana maharaja was engaged to help with early Iskcon and they can be downloaded from www.purebhakti.com the file with those letters rescued is called "letters from america"

There have been up to 100 such letters, but unfortunately satsvarup said he lost them in a fire, how convenient.

The fact remains that whatever anyone says here we have the proof that Srila Prabhupada never ever spoke about Srila Narayana Maharaja like for example guruvani does and I propose that Guruvani is totally unqualified to say anything about their transcendental relationship what to speak about what would please Srila Prabhupada or what wouldnt in this regard.

Haribol

Okay nice, but this does not mean Iskcon is the only devotee society in the world.

Srila Prabhupada:...

"There are many societies and associations of pure devotees, and if someone with just a little faith begins to associate with such societies, his advancement to pure devotional service is rapid." (Nectar of Devotion, Ch. 19)

For example Srila Prabhupada is one of the co founders of the Gaudya Vedanta Samiti of which Srila Narayana maharaja is the Acarya at present...

Srila Prabhupada wrote to Trivikram Maharaja, a disciple of Kesava Maharaja on 22/10/1968:

In the Bhagavad Gita it is stated that The Supersoul appears to us externally in the form of the spiritual master, why? because we can not perceive "hear and see" the supersoul with our material ears and eyes, but we can see the spiritual master.

CC Ādi 1.58: Since one cannot visually experience the presence of the Supersoul, He appears before us as a liberated devotee. Such a spiritual master is none other than Kṛṣṇa Himself.

CC Ādi 1.59: "One should therefore avoid bad company and associate only with devotees. With their realized instructions, such saints can cut the knot connecting one with activities unfavorable to devotional service."

CC Ādi 1.60: "The spiritually powerful message of Godhead can be properly discussed only in a society of devotees, and it is greatly pleasing to hear in that association. If one hears from devotees, the way of transcendental experience quickly opens, and gradually one attains firm faith that in due course develops into attraction and devotion."

CC Ādi 1.61: A pure devotee constantly engaged in the loving service of the Lord is identical with the Lord, who is always seated in his heart.

CC Ādi 1.62: "Saints are My heart, and only I am their hearts. They do not know anyone but Me, and therefore I do not recognize anyone besides them as Mine."

CC Ādi 1.63: "Saints of your caliber are themselves places of pilgrimage. Because of their purity, they are constant companions of the Lord, and therefore they can purify even the places of pilgrimage."

Srila Prabhupada is not physically present anymore, but there are others who can function as siksa gurus to some and to others as initiating spiritual masters.

There are certainly such rare persons present right now on this planet, they have to be, so that a sincere soul can approach Krishna trough them.

Krishna says..tat vidhi pranipatena, pariprasnena sevaya....

Find a genuine spiritual master, ask questions, serve and so on, its all very clear

This is one of the nicest letters I have read so far here on AF. It shows compassion and understanding by the writer. It makes clear that those various types of unsteady devotional service are an accepted part of the whole process and that no one should ever become dispondend about his present unsteady position. Very nicely written it will give hope and renewed enthusiasm to those devotees which suffer from feeling stuck and depressed. A very nice contribution to the forum.

Hare Krishna,

I wrote the following in memory of a late godbrother of mine, who took

a drastic remedial measure to solve his depression, and for all those

devotees who have unfortunately find themselves in some degree of

dejection in devotional service, some of who have written to us

personally. I invite devotees who think they are suffering from

depression to talk about it to others, on this group or in private

emails, so that devotees can try to help each other. In the medical

world, depression has been treated successfully in 90% of clinical

cases. Perhaps this is a topic that devotees should address and seek

serious solutions, of which professional help is the best remedy in

some cases. Thinking of these topics, I wrote the following essay:

The Spirit Soul is Never Defeated

 

Weathering the Dark Clouds that obscure the Brilliant Sky of Bhakti

 

Jiva souls are never defeated. The Jiva soul is full of eternality,

bliss and knowledge, and thus the soul never suffers any setback or

defeat. However, the spirit soul only appears to suffer reverses and

defeat, due to the marginal potency nature of the Jiva. The marginal

potency, or tatasta-sakti, is the constitutional position of the

spirit soul to have a tendency to go either way, to be attracted to

either the spiritual potency – or – (in our case) to be attracted to

the maya potency, due to the primordial mistake of wanting to enjoy

separately from Lord Krishna. At one point in time the unfortunate

spirit soul mistakenly decides to enjoy separate from Krishna, and

then he is thrown into this material world to enjoy an endless myriad

of temporary and illusory pleasures, which ultimately ends in

lamentable conditions, especially death, which appears to be a final

defeat of all hopes of the living entity.

 

Sometimes devotees will get frustrated in their devotional career, and

they may think that they are defeated, and a failure. This may happen

because they are unable to practice some of the regulations of which

they were committed to in the beginning of their devotional life.

Sometimes such devotees will succumb to feelings of despair and

hopelessness, and think they are finally defeated, and will give up

the fight. However, such devotees can avoid a defeatist attitude by

the proper understanding of steady and unsteady devotional service, as

explained in sastra. There is always a path to hope and recovery

despite the severity of any kind of setback in devotional practices.

 

I decided to write on the topics of steady and unsteady devotional

service, or anisthita, because a friend of mine took his shortcomings

too seriously, and he was too hard on himself, and he ended in taking

his own life. I took it that he was despondent because of his apparent

failure in devotional practices, or following regulations. There may

have been several cases like this, where devotees lost all hope and

took the extreme measure of ending their lives. Many other devotees

become disheartened by apparent weaknesses, and instead of a material

body suicide, they may commit spiritual suicide by giving up Krsna

consciousness, because they do not understand the fact that unsteady

devotional service can afflict many, if not most devotees. Some

devotees are more afflicted by these anomalies than others, and it

does not mean that the whole process is hopeless for the many, and

only feasible for the few.

 

Older devotees are often hard on themselves when they fall short of a

monk's values and standards. They began as brahmacaris, or

brahmacarinis, like disciplined monks, and later get married, and it

seems that it's often difficult to maintain the monk standard. Most of

us old-timers began Krsna consciousness in temples, in the 70's, and

we followed rigid scheduled activities, which we fully enjoyed and

were able to execute. It may be that some of us are unable to follow

in the same way, one reason being old age, and another being depressed

over the unharmonious atmosphere in temples due to infighting over

Srila Prabhupada's teachings, like on the guru issue, and other

issues. Some devotees became alienated because of this and are lacking

in association because of isolation, and suffering various degrees of

depression and guilt. These descriptions of unsteady devotional

service is to encourage devotees to not give up because of periodic

weakness, to not give up in the course of vacillating service, by

understanding the widespread occurrence of unsteady devotion in most

of neophytes.

 

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur writes in his Madhurya Kadambini

that in the stage of bhajana-kriya, there are two types of devotional

activities, steady devotional service, nisthita, and unsteady

devotional service, anisthita. The science of the 6 stages of

unsteady devotional service is fully described in this small book.

Briefly, the stages are as follows: 1. false confidence, 2. sporadic

endeavor, 3. indecision, 4. struggle with senses, 5. inability to

uphold vows, and 6. enjoying facilities offered by bhakti. I remember

when I first became aware of this book by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti

Thakur, it was when Dina-bandu Prabhu came to our California devotee

community, and gave class, and he described the contents of this book

that he helped to translate in Vrndavana, India. Dina-bandu Prabhu

explained that most all devotees go through these stages of unsteady

service, and he has experienced that it happens all over India, it

happens all over the world, as a common occurrence for all neophyte

devotees, and we should not become so discouraged because of the

realities of these stages.

 

So when a devotee experiences one or more of the 6 stages of unsteady

service, like "struggle with the senses" or "inability to uphold

vows," that does not mean that such a temporary struggle is a

permanent character flaw, chiseled in stone into the ledger of his

devotional profile. Temporary struggle does not mean he is marked for

life. Yet, he [or she] may tend to think this way, they may judge

themselves too harshly over temporary difficulties. Others may judge

them callously, as it is the tendency of neophyte devotees to think

oneself is better than others, just because of external endeavors,

like one's ability to do sadhana and service more than others. And,

because the devotee with such a difficulty tends to harbor shame and

guilt, he/she may inadvertently avoid the association of other

devotees, fearing their judgment, thus making matters worse. Often the

beginner devotee has the flaw of "false confidence" and thinks himself

better than the older devotee who is in the stage of "sporadic

endeavor." We will give more information on this phenomenon in a

latter post.

 

We should understand the reality of unsteady service as something that

most souls go through. There are only a few exceptions, who, because

of a prior superior devotional birth, or some reason, they are able to

skip the unsteady process and go straight to pure devotional service.

But, most of us are not the exceptions to the rule.

 

This is nicely described in this passage about Jayananda Prabhu, from

the essay- "A Modern Saint"

 

"In Vaisnava scriptures, such as Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura's

Madhurya-kadambini, we learn that a conditioned soul progresses

through stages of sadhana-bhakti (devotional practice) before

attaining spontaneous love for God. The new bhaktas (devotees) at the

San Francisco temple would often struggle with their material desires

and their daily spiritual practices, falling in and out of Krsna

consciousness. Surprisingly, no one remembers Jayananda in the role of

a "new bhakta." He took to Krsna consciousness naturally and

effortlessly. He relished all aspects of Krsna consciousness --

chanting on his beads, singing in kirtana, eating prasadam, performing

Deity worship, and so on. He would often remark, "Krsna consciousness

is so sweet." - (From "A Modern Saint" by Bhayahari Dasa)

 

Most neophyte devotees are not so fortunate like Jayananda, and go

through some of the stages of unsteady devotion. Often these

difficulties make devotees more determined to overcome the obstacles

in the path of devotion, and while appearing to be unsteady, they are

always thinking of Krsna and Prabhupada and how to overcome such

difficulties. And ultimate success is always possible, by the simple

function of thinking of Krishna and Srila Prabhupada at the time of

death, and getting spiritual success, no matter what struggles one had

previously on the path. And therefore, we must not be deterred or give

up because of seemingly inevitable unsteady devotional stages, but we

should maintain an attitude of perseverance even in the face of

deficiency and even hopelessness, because there is always hope, and we

should understand that the soul is never defeated, especially those

great souls who gave their lives and service to Srila Prabhupada and

Lord Caitanya's movement.

 

Sometimes the devotee will become overcome by unsteady devotional

service, and he may think, "I am a failure, I am defeated." This is

the not fact. Just because there are dark clouds, which shadow the

eternal bright sky of Krsna consciousness, and sometimes there are

gray and depressing, overcast days, and the brilliant sun of Krishna

is obscured temporarily. This does not mean the devotee is a failure

and he is defeated. He is only in a temporary setback. Temporary means

a short time, or a few years, or many years, or whatever the amount of

time, it is all temporary illusion. Despite the dark clouds, it is

certain that someday the bright sun of Krishna will burn away the fog

and dark clouds, and the sky of Krsna consciousness will burst forth

in brilliant all-pervading light, once more.

 

Actually, the soul is never defeated, the soul is sat-cit-ananda, full

of bliss, eternity and knowledge. But, unfortunately, that same soul

is being dragged around this world, encased within an illusory body,

which is driven by the unbridled mind. Evidently, it usually takes a

certain amount of time to fully train the mind to always be Krsna

conscious. The untrained mind will meanwhile continually make wrong

decisions due to the illusory energy, and the soul seems to suffer

with the reactions from karma, and sufferings that are due to the

identification with the material body. If he thinks he is the body,

and thinks he is defeated, and decides to commit material or spiritual

suicide, that is not his real soul doing this, that is only the

identity with the body. It's kind of like identity theft. Maya steals

our real identity of being a pure servant of Krishna, and then she

covers the soul with illusions, and makes us think we are these bodies

of flesh and bone, thus we suffer a false defeat and shame.

 

The principle of unsteady devotional service means that most devotees

will take a certain amount of time to undergo a "gradual process" in

order to truly advance in Krsna consciousness. Srila Prabhupada once

said that it took him 30 years to perfect his japa. I believe he said

this in humility, and in order to give us an example of how Krsna

consciousness is a gradual process, and not to become discouraged if

it takes time to become truly advanced. Srila Prabhupada also said

that even if his disciples appear to be fallen away from Krsna

consciousness, they are still his disciples, provided that they do not

fall into meat eating. Then, at that point, they are no longer a

disciple. This shows how merciful Srila Prabhupada is, and how he

understands that some disciples will experience unsteady devotional

service, but they are not in a hopeless condition.

 

Even some great Vaisnavas in our history experienced a period of

clouds of illusion on the path of devotion, in the early part of their

devotional career. Some of these stories will be told in a later

posting, along with more information on the 6 stages of unsteady

service. Hare Krishna, Ys Vishoka dasa

Krishnaleela says.....you find that you are none other than God himself

He says that He is God, how daft can you be my friend. If you are god, then do something god like, like look at your hand right now and manifest an egg from it, then when you can do that, a tree in front of you, then a mountain, then another universe, another planet and many stars.

Then answer prayers, know all that is even to the smallest corner of this universe and all other universes and begin to describe it to me.

What did I think yesterday morning? what will I do tomorrow at 5pm? What was my last birth?

Dont tell me you dont feel like it right now to answer me, the fact is that since birth you have never been able to do any of these things and will never be able to do so in the future

If you are God you ought to know all these things, not just of me but everyone else as well and keep all this information seperate, without ever getting confused. God means allknowing, omniscient and more.

Is that what you are?

Or are you sitting on the toilett every day passing stool?

Do you bleed when you are cut?

When someone shoots you, dont you fall off the tree your sitting on?

You have so many shortcommings and yet you think you are God and that we are all one?

I disagree, so therefore there are two already "Prabhupada"

You just cant, never never never be The God, you are suffering from a wild imagination, but that is all.

The reason that we are so enthusiastic to tell you the truth is because its important to stop you misleading innocent people.

You are so unintelligent that even so the Truth is staring you in the face as in the first post, where quotes are given by The Lord Himself as to His own and the Jivas individuality, you still insist that you are god?

krishna says that He can remember all His Incarnations and the lives that have past of every creature, can you?

If 10000000 million guys like you come together and shout I am God, will that make you remember anything from anyones past?

So sorry Gods position is already taken and its not you.

When a green bird flies into a green tree, and cant be seen anymore, has he become one with the tree?

Taken from Stephen Knapps News letter Today

Namaste,

I have mentioned the point to many Indian Hindus that if Indian Hindus really understood their own culture and the philosophy of the Vedic tradition more deeply, there is no way they would even consider being attracted to other religions and cultures who try to convert them to their way of thinking. And everyone I talk to agrees. They would be more ready to stand up and let others know of how dynamic and unique the Vedic tradition really is, and what it has done for them. That's all it takes to make the first step.

Yet, many followers of Sanatana-dharma remain weak or even silent about the glories of their own path and culture because they have not found the motivation to investigate it enough to be proud enough to defend it. And thus, piece by piece we are seeing the slow extermination of India and the lands that used to belong to a HIndu population. We have lost Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Bangla Desh, and now we have seen the cultural loss of most of northeast India, such as Assam, Nagaland, Arunachal Pradesh, Mizoram, etc., and other areas may also follow. How long does it take before Hindus begin to make a stand to protect their culture and make sure that India remains a dynamic and thriving homeland of the Vedic tradition? If this does not happen, then with all of the deterioration in such enthusiasm, inter-religious marriages, state governments taking away the lands and assets that belong to Hindu temples, such as we have seen in Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka and Kerala, then Hindus will see that within the next two generations their own children and family will no longer be Hindus or followers of the Vedic tradition. They will have given it up for something else, thinking that a lesser developed religion has the answers, or that it does not matter that much anyway. Or they will have been talked out of respecting Vedic culture because of all the bad press and demeaning stories in the media, or because their college or school friends will have become critics of it because they lost the reason for continuing to hold it in high esteem. Because of this sort of influence, an increasing number of Hindu families will no longer remain follows of Sanatana-dharma as the generations role along, and the future of India itself will become threatened as to whether it remains the homeland of Vedic culture.

The following article makes some very good points on this issue.

Hari Om and Hari bol,

Stephen Knapp

www.stephen-<WBR>knapp.comTo stay in touch, join his news list,

http://groups.<WBR>/<WBR>group/StephenKna<WBR>ppNewsList

StephenKnappNewsLis<WBR>t-@<WBR>.<WBR>com

Why Don't Hindus Defend Hinduism http://www.organise<WBR>r.org/dynamic/<WBR>modules.php?<WBR>name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=186&page=31

As per Mahabharata, "Dharma eva hato hanti / Dharmo rakshati rakshitah" (One who destroys Dharma is destroyed by Dharma / One who protects Dharma is protected by Dharma). For thousands of years, Hindus protected Dharma, and Dharma in turn protected them. But now most Hindus have forsaken their Dharma. And Dharma too has forsaken them.

Though as per Arnold Toynbee, "Civilizations die from suicide, not murder", a unilateral war against Hinduism is being waged by anti-Hindu forces to wipe out Hinduism from earth the way other native cultures and religions have been obliterated from the world.

Losses so far

Bharat Varsha including the present day India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Afghanistan and even Zabol in Iran was Hindu land till Muslims attacked Sindh in 8th century. Hindus lost Afghanistan to Muslims in 987 in a fiercely fought battle. After many centuries, Muslims got Pakistan in 1947. In 1971, East Pakistan became Bangladesh.

And in independent India, Hindus have undergone genocide and eviction from Kashmir to become refugees in their own country.

Besides, Pak- Bangla combine wants to create one more Islamic country on Indian soil for which it has sent countless terrorists, Pakistanis and crores of Bangladeshis into India; and has planted numerous Madrassas on India's border with Bangladesh, Nepal and Pakistan.

If Pakistan and Bangladesh want to Islamize India, missionaries want to Christianize India. On 7th November, 1999 in New Delhi, Pope John Paul II gave a call to convert Asia to Christianity as follows:-

"Just as the first millennium saw the Cross firmly planted in the soil of Europe, and the second in that of America and Africa, so may the Third Christian Millennium witness a great harvest of faith on this vast and vital continent."

Hindus in India and Nepal are favourite targets for this 'harvest of faith' where missionaries are converting poorer Hindus to Christianity under pretence of charitable social service.

With each passing day, India is being made more Islamic and more Christian; and less Hindu.

And in 2006, Maoists, missionaries and Pakistan's ISI have divested Nepal of its Hindu identity. It is tragic that though there are 57 Muslim countries and scores of Christian countries in the world, one billion strong Hindu community has not cared to maintain the Hindu character of Nepal, the sole Hindu nation in the world.

Macaulayan education

As per George Orwell (1903-1950), "The most effective way to destroy a people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history."

Introduced in India in 1835 by Lord Macaulay (1800-1859), Macaulayan education had no place for Sanskrit, Hindu scriptures, Hindu heritage and Hindu history, and was devised to de-Hinduise Hindus as Macaulay's following letter dated October 12, 1836 to his evangelist father shows:

"Our English schools are flourishing wonderfully.<WBR>... The effect of this education on Hindus is prodigious. No Hindu who has received an English education ever remains sincerely attached to his religion. It is my firm belief that if our plans of education are followed up, there will not be a single idolater among the respected classes 30 years hence. And this will be effected without our efforts to proselytize; I heartily rejoice in the prospect."

Shockingly, even after independence in 1947, India has been following Macaulayan education.

De-Hinduized by Macaulayan education, most Hindu intellectuals, journalists, MBAs, business persons, doctors, lawyers, engineers, teachers and the rest know nothing about Hindu religion, heritage or history; and do not know any Mantra of Vedas or any Shloka of Ramayana, Mahabharata or Tirukkural. As a result, most Hindus are self- alienated and indifferent to attacks being made on Hinduism.

Sarva Dharma sambhav

The most dangerous falsity being propagated by many Hindu religious leaders is that all religions are the same (sarva Dharma sambhav) . This declaration betrays ignorance about Hinduism, and also about other religions. This falsehood strengthens anti-Hindus, and facilitates fraudulent conversion of Hindus. Those claiming all religions to be the same are either ignorant or hypocrites.

Besides, unilateral Hindu slogans like vasudhaiv kutumbakam (entire world is one family) and ekam sat viprah bahudha vadanti ('truth' is one but has many names) also suppress danger from anti-Hindu forces which are bent upon finishing Hinduism. As a result, de-Hinduised by Macaulayan education and ignorant of Hindu religion, Hindu heritage and Hindu scriptures, many Hindus are proclaiming that they have equal respect for all religions, and are being converted and married to Non-Hindus.

Way out

But even now Hinduism can be saved. And it will be saved.

Since this world believes in 'survival of the fittest', those who behave like sheep are devoured by wolves.

In any democracy, media is the most potent weapon of attack and shield of defence. In India, most of print and electronic media is controlled by anti-Hindu forces. Most of this media is denigrating Hinduism, spreading misinformation about Hindu scriptures, and hurting Hindu sentiments. Besides though Hinduism is based on Vedas which stipulate a casteless society, anti-Hindu media is dividing Hindu society on the basis of caste.

Genocide and eviction of Hindus from Kashmir are no news whereas Gujarat riots which started after Hindu rail passengers were torched at Godhra are always in the news. Infiltration of crores of Pak-Bangla nationals threatening to create one more Islamic country on Indian soil finds no space in media. Similarly, conversion of poorer Hindus to Christianity by fraud, inducement and coercion creates no ripples in media.

It is deplorable that though there are many country-wide newspapers and television channels promoting anti-Hinduism and fake secularism, there is no all-India pro-Hindu daily news paper, or television channel projecting Hindu concerns. Surprisingly, no Hindu organization has given this subject the importance it deserves.

De-Hinduized by Macaulayan education and brain-washed by anti-Hindu media, most Hindus know nothing about Hindu religion, scriptures, heritage and history, and therefore, are passive to attacks on Hinduism. In this dismal situation, only pro-Hindu mass media can educate Hindus about Hindu religion, heritage and history; liberate them from conceptual confusion and fake secularism, and make them pro-active to save Hinduism from demolition.

Since all the problems facing Hindu society can be solved with the help of pro-Hindu media, all organizations and individuals must help to create the all-India pro-Hindu daily news papers and television channels at the earliest.

This is the only way to save Hinduism.

Dharmo Rakshiti Rakshitah

Hindus have forgotten the message: "Dharmo Rakshiti Rakshitah" (One who protects Dharma is protected by Dharma).

Though as per Hinduism, Dharma (righteousness)<WBR>, Artha (material possessions), Kama (worldly desires) and Moksha (liberation from re-birth) constitute four purusharthas (human pursuits), most Hindus have forgotten their Dharma, their foremost duty.

Hindus must defend their Dharma; and live with dignity, and without being discriminated against.

Hindus have a glorious heritage of thousands of years which they must cherish and preserve. Hindus have fought repeated onslaughts, and preserved Hinduism over the centuries whereas all other native religions and civilizations have been wiped off from the earth by expansionist religions. Every Hindu family must devote time and resources to protect Hinduism.

Many Hindus feel that since Hinduism has survived for thousands of years, it will continue to flourish for ever. But they overlook the worst ever attacks threatening Hinduism now. They also ignore the fact that Hinduism has been banished from Afghanistan, Pakistan and Bangladesh which also used to be Hindu lands.

Hindus must remember that only a combination of wisdom and valour will ensure survival of Hinduism as Bhagvad Gita's last Shloka declares, "Yatra yogeshwarah Krishno yatra Paartho dhanurdharah, / tatra shreervijayo bhootirdhruvaa neetir matirmama" (Where Krishna, the Lord of yoga, and Arjuna, the wielder of bow are there; prosperity, victory, success, and glory will follow).

Taken fro Stephen Knapps newsletter

Namaste,

I have mentioned the point to many Indian Hindus that if Indian Hindus really understood their own culture and the philosophy of the Vedic tradition more deeply, there is no way they would even consider being attracted to other religions and cultures who try to convert them to their way of thinking. And everyone I talk to agrees. They would be more ready to stand up and let others know of how dynamic and unique the Vedic tradition really is, and what it has done for them. That's all it takes to make the first step.

Yet, many followers of Sanatana-dharma remain weak or even silent about the glories of their own path and culture because they have not found the motivation to investigate it enough to be proud enough to defend it. And thus, piece by piece we are seeing the slow extermination of India and the lands that used to belong to a HIndu population. We have lost Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Bangla Desh, and now we have seen the cultural loss of most of northeast India, such as Assam, Nagaland, Arunachal Pradesh, Mizoram, etc., and other areas may also follow. How long does it take before Hindus begin to make a stand to protect their culture and make sure that India remains a dynamic and thriving homeland of the Vedic tradition? If this does not happen, then with all of the deterioration in such enthusiasm, inter-religious marriages, state governments taking away the lands and assets that belong to Hindu temples, such as we have seen in Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka and Kerala, then Hindus will see that within the next two generations their own children and family will no longer be Hindus or followers of the Vedic tradition. They will have given it up for something else, thinking that a lesser developed religion has the answers, or that it does not matter that much anyway. Or they will have been talked out of respecting Vedic culture because of all the bad press and demeaning stories in the media, or because their college or school friends will have become critics of it because they lost the reason for continuing to hold it in high esteem. Because of this sort of influence, an increasing number of Hindu families will no longer remain follows of Sanatana-dharma as the generations role along, and the future of India itself will become threatened as to whether it remains the homeland of Vedic culture.

The following article makes some very good points on this issue.

Hari Om and Hari bol,

Stephen Knapp

www.stephen-<WBR>knapp.comTo stay in touch, join his news list,

http://groups.<WBR>/<WBR>group/StephenKna<WBR>ppNewsList

StephenKnappNewsLis<WBR>t-@<WBR>.<WBR>com

Why Don't Hindus Defend Hinduism http://www.organise<WBR>r.org/dynamic/<WBR>modules.php?<WBR>name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=186&page=31

As per Mahabharata, "Dharma eva hato hanti / Dharmo rakshati rakshitah" (One who destroys Dharma is destroyed by Dharma / One who protects Dharma is protected by Dharma). For thousands of years, Hindus protected Dharma, and Dharma in turn protected them. But now most Hindus have forsaken their Dharma. And Dharma too has forsaken them.

Though as per Arnold Toynbee, "Civilizations die from suicide, not murder", a unilateral war against Hinduism is being waged by anti-Hindu forces to wipe out Hinduism from earth the way other native cultures and religions have been obliterated from the world.

Losses so far

Bharat Varsha including the present day India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Afghanistan and even Zabol in Iran was Hindu land till Muslims attacked Sindh in 8th century. Hindus lost Afghanistan to Muslims in 987 in a fiercely fought battle. After many centuries, Muslims got Pakistan in 1947. In 1971, East Pakistan became Bangladesh.

And in independent India, Hindus have undergone genocide and eviction from Kashmir to become refugees in their own country.

Besides, Pak- Bangla combine wants to create one more Islamic country on Indian soil for which it has sent countless terrorists, Pakistanis and crores of Bangladeshis into India; and has planted numerous Madrassas on India's border with Bangladesh, Nepal and Pakistan.

If Pakistan and Bangladesh want to Islamize India, missionaries want to Christianize India. On 7th November, 1999 in New Delhi, Pope John Paul II gave a call to convert Asia to Christianity as follows:-

"Just as the first millennium saw the Cross firmly planted in the soil of Europe, and the second in that of America and Africa, so may the Third Christian Millennium witness a great harvest of faith on this vast and vital continent."

Hindus in India and Nepal are favourite targets for this 'harvest of faith' where missionaries are converting poorer Hindus to Christianity under pretence of charitable social service.

With each passing day, India is being made more Islamic and more Christian; and less Hindu.

And in 2006, Maoists, missionaries and Pakistan's ISI have divested Nepal of its Hindu identity. It is tragic that though there are 57 Muslim countries and scores of Christian countries in the world, one billion strong Hindu community has not cared to maintain the Hindu character of Nepal, the sole Hindu nation in the world.

Macaulayan education

As per George Orwell (1903-1950), "The most effective way to destroy a people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history."

Introduced in India in 1835 by Lord Macaulay (1800-1859), Macaulayan education had no place for Sanskrit, Hindu scriptures, Hindu heritage and Hindu history, and was devised to de-Hinduise Hindus as Macaulay's following letter dated October 12, 1836 to his evangelist father shows:

"Our English schools are flourishing wonderfully.<WBR>... The effect of this education on Hindus is prodigious. No Hindu who has received an English education ever remains sincerely attached to his religion. It is my firm belief that if our plans of education are followed up, there will not be a single idolater among the respected classes 30 years hence. And this will be effected without our efforts to proselytize; I heartily rejoice in the prospect."

Shockingly, even after independence in 1947, India has been following Macaulayan education.

De-Hinduized by Macaulayan education, most Hindu intellectuals, journalists, MBAs, business persons, doctors, lawyers, engineers, teachers and the rest know nothing about Hindu religion, heritage or history; and do not know any Mantra of Vedas or any Shloka of Ramayana, Mahabharata or Tirukkural. As a result, most Hindus are self- alienated and indifferent to attacks being made on Hinduism.

Sarva Dharma sambhav

The most dangerous falsity being propagated by many Hindu religious leaders is that all religions are the same (sarva Dharma sambhav) . This declaration betrays ignorance about Hinduism, and also about other religions. This falsehood strengthens anti-Hindus, and facilitates fraudulent conversion of Hindus. Those claiming all religions to be the same are either ignorant or hypocrites.

Besides, unilateral Hindu slogans like vasudhaiv kutumbakam (entire world is one family) and ekam sat viprah bahudha vadanti ('truth' is one but has many names) also suppress danger from anti-Hindu forces which are bent upon finishing Hinduism. As a result, de-Hinduised by Macaulayan education and ignorant of Hindu religion, Hindu heritage and Hindu scriptures, many Hindus are proclaiming that they have equal respect for all religions, and are being converted and married to Non-Hindus.

Way out

But even now Hinduism can be saved. And it will be saved.

Since this world believes in 'survival of the fittest', those who behave like sheep are devoured by wolves.

In any democracy, media is the most potent weapon of attack and shield of defence. In India, most of print and electronic media is controlled by anti-Hindu forces. Most of this media is denigrating Hinduism, spreading misinformation about Hindu scriptures, and hurting Hindu sentiments. Besides though Hinduism is based on Vedas which stipulate a casteless society, anti-Hindu media is dividing Hindu society on the basis of caste.

Genocide and eviction of Hindus from Kashmir are no news whereas Gujarat riots which started after Hindu rail passengers were torched at Godhra are always in the news. Infiltration of crores of Pak-Bangla nationals threatening to create one more Islamic country on Indian soil finds no space in media. Similarly, conversion of poorer Hindus to Christianity by fraud, inducement and coercion creates no ripples in media.

It is deplorable that though there are many country-wide newspapers and television channels promoting anti-Hinduism and fake secularism, there is no all-India pro-Hindu daily news paper, or television channel projecting Hindu concerns. Surprisingly, no Hindu organization has given this subject the importance it deserves.

De-Hinduized by Macaulayan education and brain-washed by anti-Hindu media, most Hindus know nothing about Hindu religion, scriptures, heritage and history, and therefore, are passive to attacks on Hinduism. In this dismal situation, only pro-Hindu mass media can educate Hindus about Hindu religion, heritage and history; liberate them from conceptual confusion and fake secularism, and make them pro-active to save Hinduism from demolition.

Since all the problems facing Hindu society can be solved with the help of pro-Hindu media, all organizations and individuals must help to create the all-India pro-Hindu daily news papers and television channels at the earliest.

This is the only way to save Hinduism.

Dharmo Rakshiti Rakshitah

Hindus have forgotten the message: "Dharmo Rakshiti Rakshitah" (One who protects Dharma is protected by Dharma).

Though as per Hinduism, Dharma (righteousness)<WBR>, Artha (material possessions), Kama (worldly desires) and Moksha (liberation from re-birth) constitute four purusharthas (human pursuits), most Hindus have forgotten their Dharma, their foremost duty.

Hindus must defend their Dharma; and live with dignity, and without being discriminated against.

Hindus have a glorious heritage of thousands of years which they must cherish and preserve. Hindus have fought repeated onslaughts, and preserved Hinduism over the centuries whereas all other native religions and civilizations have been wiped off from the earth by expansionist religions. Every Hindu family must devote time and resources to protect Hinduism.

Many Hindus feel that since Hinduism has survived for thousands of years, it will continue to flourish for ever. But they overlook the worst ever attacks threatening Hinduism now. They also ignore the fact that Hinduism has been banished from Afghanistan, Pakistan and Bangladesh which also used to be Hindu lands.

Hindus must remember that only a combination of wisdom and valour will ensure survival of Hinduism as Bhagvad Gita's last Shloka declares, "Yatra yogeshwarah Krishno yatra Paartho dhanurdharah, / tatra shreervijayo bhootirdhruvaa neetir matirmama" (Where Krishna, the Lord of yoga, and Arjuna, the wielder of bow are there; prosperity, victory, success, and glory will follow).

Hi, I am a hypnotherapist and have helped many people with weight problems. I would suggest that you have a good look for a proper and genuine hypnotherapist, you know one who belongs to a reputable association of therapist and go and see him.

Many times weight problems are associated with emotional problems and a good Hypnotharapist can help you with this.

hello

i am 174cm tall and weigh 10.5 stones.

i have a lot of fat around my stomach, chest, arms, thighs...

i wish to lose this fat. i have tried dieting and exercising but they do not help. can anyone suggest any ayurvedic home remedies i could prepare to help lose this fat.

thankyou

Mine was as well, I was in Japan at the time with Guru Kripas gang, it sure hurt like hell and stand and fight is the right mediciene, never stop chanting, never stop inquiring, never stop praying for mercy. We are still all one big family, never mind which camp we belong to.

We all have our heartaches - mine in Govinda's restaurant in November 77 when Gaudiya das told me that Srila Prabhupada had left us. No one will ever be the same. We all deal with it as best we can, some ritvik, some renegade, drowning in our tears. Stand and fight, O Mighty-armed.

Guruvani can you please stop talking about Srila Narayana maharaja in such a bad way?

Srila Narayana maharaja has not started a new gopy bhava club, i wish you would stop preaching these lies, there is nothing unauthorised going on at Srila Narayana maharajas camp.

I have been with Him now for almost 4 years and have listened to almost all of His classes and conversations and if He says something about anyone you should try and see it in its proper context and see the truth behind it.

Anyway here we are you are defending Srila Sridhar Maharaja, how does it feel to be in the line of fire for a change?

Its okay for you to offend Srila Narayana Maharaja and talk about things you havnt the slightest about, who cares if you dont like Him or His disciples, or what you think will happen to His movement after His demise?

There are tens of thausands of His followers with incredible high spiritual understanding, its not that you are the authority on these matters. You think His movement is a small movement? Its huge in fact.

How dare you to suggest He is not belonging to the world sceene of the Krishna movement, or that He suggested that He is teaching something higher then Srila Prabhupada? I have never heared Him saying this, He is just cottoning on where Srila Prabhupada stopped and explaines Srila Prabhupadas purports which you still try to illuminate with the small torchlight of your limited mind.

You think that Krishna Consciouss knowledge ends with what is written in Srila Prabhupadas books? That Srila Prabhupadas books are it and that there is nothing else? In the short time Srila Prabhupada had, you think everything was revealed? you are just touching the shores of an ocean, Krishna is unlimited, there is not end to His pastimes, there is no end to the wonders and amazing things still to be revealed, unlimited and never ending and that is true, it is a fact.

We are living in a time in which all these things are coming to light and different acaryas reveal what is neccessary at the time, to expand and to enlighten the souls of this world. This does not mean that one is better then the other.

Love for god is flowing from the spiritual master to the disciple and as the disciple advances new things are revealed to Him, but those revelations are not static, new spiritual masters arrive and reveal new things, building on what the ones before have tought.

In Srila Narayana maharaja there is no envy and He does not need any approaval from anyone, all these spiritual masters are great stalwarts in the line of devotion.

The transcendental world does not conflict with itself, but is in harmony and your comments about Srila Narayana Maharaja show me the maya you are in.

Srila Narayana Maharaja has nothing but love for Srila Prabhupada. Like Srila Sridhar Maharaja, he is like a trailing current in the wake of Srila Prabhupada, sometimes the currents go this way and other times that way, each performing its own purposes and sometimes they even appear contrary to the central purpose.

But this is all an illusion, its the great waves of the ocean of love for Krishna which expand everywhere like Krishnas smile and which can not be checked.

I bear witness to the light and the illumination and sweetness I have seen in Srila Prabhupada and seen also in Srila Narayana Maharaja, what else can i do?

Again I am warning you to give up this faul talk, I can only see harm coming from it.

Srila Prabhupada has demonstrated faith and much more, He has made the Truth accessable to all and this is the work of the great devotees. Their work is primarily to manifest the reality of God.

Such great devotees are beyond the faulty logic of the neophites mind. We can not and we must not criticise them in any way, unless we want to have our advancement checked completely.

I will leave this tread now, I have no time or tolerance for guruvanis irrelevant posts.

For myself, I have been on this forum 4 years and I have had my belly full of arguing and debating with the followers of Narayana Maharaja. I don't think anyone has been converted to the other side in all these arguments and debates that have gone on. It's an excercise in futility.

Personally, I think Srila Prabhupada wanted to dismantle ISKCON after his passing and I think he saw Narayana Maharaja as the man for the job.If it weren't for the childish and fanatic mentality of his followers to force Narayana Maharaja on ISKCON and the Krishna consciousness movement, I think Narayana Maharaja would have enjoyed immense success beyond his already noteworthy preaching accomplishments.If the followers of Narayana Maharaja had been humble and gentle and just taking a back seat with their own guru and been happy with that, then I think lot more devotees would have been drawn to him.

I think that fanatic followers of Narayana Maharaja who came on forums years ago and have tried to cram him down the throats of everyone have done the greatest disservice to him.

If they would have just been happy to have a seperate society from ISKCON and not tired to impose Narayana Maharaja on ISKCON, then I think that would have worked a lot better than all this feverish fanaticism to try and promote that if ISKCON or the followers of Srila Prabhupada did not accept Narayana Maharaja as the universal siksha guru and mandatory sadhu sanga they were all big offenders.Narayana Maharaja enjoyed a respectable position with ISKCON devotees until his follwers came out like little brats trying to cram him down the throat of ISKCON.So, you guys have pissed your own bed and now you have to lay in it.

I went to the camp of Sridhar Maharaja in about 1981 and I was a close associate of Bhakti Sudhir Maharaja, but I don't ever remember the kind of fanatic, holier-than-thou fanaticism from that camp that I have seen from the camp of Narayana Maharaja.

Actually, I mostly admired Narayana Maharaja before his followers turned me off.

But, I am not so sure that Narayana Maharaja didn't have something to do with the fanatic extremism that most all his followers have been spreading around the world since ISKCON devotees starting turning to him for guidance.

It appears that he has had something to do with the phenomenon.

Fair comment, but as followers of Srila Prabhupada we also have done the same, and its certainly not a good way to preach, I agree with that 100%

In all camps we have neophite followers like me and advanced followers, we just have to choose the right association. Anyway, I dont agree with the idea that Srila Prabhupada wanted to dismantle Iskcon, why all this hard work to establish it and then do that?

I am sure He was quiet upset about the going ons but i am also sure that those who where supposed to help His disciples to complete the training have been Srila Sridhar Maharaja and Srila Narayana Maharaja.

After all didnt Srila Prabhupada say..the training is not complete? then who was supposed to complete it if not those to great souls? No one else was qualified to do this job except them.

Unfortunately Srila Sridhar Maharaja passed away before I could go and see Him.

You wrote this....

Narayana Maharaja enjoyed a respectable position with ISKCON devotees until his follwers came out like little brats trying to cram him down the throat of ISKCON.

I think the truth is more like this Guruvani prabhu. The Iskcon leaders became afraid that their positions would become jepodised and exposed by Srila Narayana Maharaja, " and that even without saying anything" All the new devotees would have realised the difference between the maha bagavad devotee and the kanistha adhikari and come to the right conclusions.

For the same reason they did not like Srila Sridhar Maharaja either and gave Him a bad name also, same old Iskcon politics.

The kings new cloth would have been exposed as no cloth, invisible, and this of course would have been an incredible benefit for the society, but here we are, what can we do?

If some disciples of Srila Narayana maharaja or indeed Prabhupada disciples have have acted like you described, then what is the harm? they have done so in good faith, not everyone is pissed of by this, in fact when we disciples of Srila Prabhupada pushed His books into peoples hands, it was seen as liberating them and helping them in a very big way, this is true and a fact, but many felt it was uncalled for and felt harrassed by us

the disciples of Narayana Maharaja also feel the same, they feel that they can help others. Same sentiments

I think we should all agree to consider the amazing preaching potential we all would have if we worked together in unison and try to find ways to work together.

For excample if there was a temple of Srila Sridhar Maharaja and another of Narayana maharajas devotees and a new prospect lives one mile away from your temple, but a 100 from ours I would send him to yours, because in the end is this not what we should do? why lead the pure guy 100 miles away if he can get the same mercy closer by?

Srila Prabhupada says that there are many vaisnava institutions and if they are genuine we should associate with any of them and make advancement

quickly in this way.

I think we should preach this message, which is totally in accordance with Srila Prabhupadas peace formular. Times are getting worse and soon we will find ourselfes in more difficult positions , we will need each other to survive

then all this petty stuff will seem rediculous.

Haribol

I am not denigrating anyone.

I am pointing out facts that Srila Prabhupada is the authorized agent of the Saraswata sampradaya to translate books and preach to the English speaking world.

As a matter of fact, I think I remember that Srila Saraswati Thakur mentioned that instruction in either the first or second time Srila Prabhupada saw him.

 

I don't know of any similar kind of profound calling assigned to any of the other disciples of Srila Saraswati Thakur.

 

Srila Prabhupada has been authorized through the parampara system for his particular mission in sevice to the Lord.

 

I know that Srila Saraswati Thakur also wanted Sridhar Maharaja to preach in the western world and eventually Sridhar Maharaja was blessed to fulfill that instruction in a very profound way.

 

I don't know of any occasion or condition in which Narayana Maharaja was empowered through the disciplic succession to preach in the western world.

 

Srila Prabhupada asked him to "help my disciples".

 

It is quite obvious that Srila Prabhupada was asking him not to harm his mission and the assist ISKCON in being disciples of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Srila Prabhupada never requested him to become a guru in ISKCON or any such thing. He asked him to "help my disciples".

 

I don't see any instruction or authority in that request that Narayana Maharaja take for himself disciples from out of the ISKCON paradigm.

 

If anyone can show anywhere or anytime Srila Prabhupada requested Narayana Maharaja to do anything aside from "help my disciples", then I would be glad to see it.

 

I would like to see any authority from Srila Prabhupada for Narayana Maharaja to accept disciples from out of the ISKCON society.

 

any takers?

 

I am waiting.......................................................

You think you have heard everything that has been discussed between these two great souls? Have you made a complete scientific study about these subjects?

First of all Srila Narayana Maharaja has been recognised by many as maha-bhagavata devotee of the Lord, What is relevant here, is that many real disciples of Srila Prabhupada who have met Srila Prabhupada, have done so and vouch for it.

I think it is correct to point out here that these are all devotees which in the beginning did not know what a pure devotee is, but have got their impressions about this from Srila Prabhupada Himself and this includes me also.

Now these same devotees have recognised that Srila Narayana maharaja also has these qualities displayed by Srila Prabhupada.

A different personality, different angles of approach and so on, but the same philosophy and a beautiful athmosphare arround Him plus more.

Such a pure devotee has nothing to do with social conventions and the restrictions imposed unto conditioned souls...have to go, continue later

Srila Narayana maharaja is Srila Prabhupadas successor for those who see Him this way, thats right, I dont need any lectures, all I know is that He has got me back to Srila Prabhupada and for that I love Him.

After Iskcon gurus messed up big time and and my letter box became bombarded with bad news after bad news after bad news about certain Iskcon members, I developed a definite anti feeling against the ritvik proponents for the lenguage they used to make their points.

So then there was long time nothing, just trotting along going to iskcon temples, not getting much guidance at all. Then one day i heared one iskcon devotee bosting that he was on the warpath against Srila Narayana Maharaja , until then I never even heard his name. But I distictively felt very uneasy and something inside me told me not to pick up this offence.

A short while later, a friend of mine who previously also felt like a dry leaf spiritually came back from leicester where he had met Srila Narayana Maharaja and he seemed so refreshed, with new life inside and had a very sweet atmosphare around him, something i had not seen in anyone since my sankirtan days in germany in 1976, so that I thought Oh, i have to meet this person.

A short while later i indeed did and because iam not a sentimentalist, and also because i did not want to be cheated again I tried very hard to look for faults in the things he was saying, for any sahajiya mentality, anything against Srila Prabhupada, the vibrations around Him, the lot, anything others had warned me about and all I could experience was this...

Here is a genuine pure devotee, someone I can trust, someone who fullfils all the requirements of a true member of the sampradaya.

He is the disciple of Srila Kesava Maharaja who is a disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja "Srila Prabhupadas sanjas guru" and as such is connected to our disciplic succession and what I experienced on that and the days that followed, was a complete rejuvanation of my spiritual life and more.

So this is my experience and it is incredibly valuable for me, ever since then Srila Narayana maharaja has guided me and helped me to increase my love for Srila Prabhupada more then anyone has ever done before.

Countless of Srila Prabhupada disciples have experienced the same, there is no turning away from Srila Prabhupada, this does not exist, there is no downgrading of Srila Prabhupada, this also is non existent, there is only glorification and deep love for Srila Prabhupada, which has always been encouraged by Srila Narayana maharaja.

I dont want to read anything by those who say otherwise, but had no personal association with this great personality and even there may be a few who had personal association who say something, I rather hear from those who i can see have become more advanced by his association, because they are in a huge majority.

There also have been those who did not agree with Srila Prabhupada and left, but who is listening to them? Everyone agrees that they talk nonsense and so do the opponents of Srila Narayana maharaja

I certainly will not take part in any offence against any vaisnavas no matter what camp they are from and if i ever have done and i am certain that i have, I ask for fogiveness, offer my apologies and give humble obeisances to them and hope my spiritual future is okay.

I think it depends on his inner intend. If he is a guru just to collect disciples and is a pretender, not being able to bring the disciple back to godhead, then that in itself must be an offence, everything he does is build on this offence and i agree with Mahak about this, in due course such a guru will be finished.

In general a real genuine spiritual master does not make any offences, because he would have never reached such an elevated position making offences in the first place, that is not possible. Correcting a disciple is not offensive, it is wanted and needed.

Actually this is an importand point, Srila Prabhupada chastised his disciples many times, so how do the members of a certain devotee group react when they mess up, but the only thing they have got is a picture of Srila Prabhupada? There are hundreds of occassions in the past, of someone making a mistake , thinking it was alright and then getting chastised by Srila Prabhupada for it.

But now this is not happening, so they very easily could make big blunders, trying to illuminate things by the torchlight of their own minds, thinking it to be alright, dangerous position i think.

we mostly fall down because of offences, daubt and not accepting proper guidance from genuinly advanced devotees. Other causes are not being able to be engaged 24/7 because of having material desires, so our service is mixed, sometimes here sometimes there, this mood that mood, sometimes endevouring and then not.

I think this is quiet an acceptable process in the beginning and to be expected. Later we get more taste and begin to understand on a deeper level and become more aware of our offences and loose gradually interest in sense gratification.

The main thing is to persevere and not give up, ever. How long does it take a baby to walk? The answer is...until it can walk! We never see a baby lying down for long, even if it bangs its head and falls, it gets up again and starts all over.

lets take a lesson from a baby :-)

What exists in the world is one. It is imperishable-Achyuta. There is nothing beyond that. I am He. The other person is He. You are He. All this is He. This identity is the essence of Self-Atman. Abandon the delusion of difference.

The above is the very first message that comes up when one visits that website so beware, dont take this message to heart.

Suchandra are you the Suchandra from Schloss Rettershof in 1976?

Oh btw where do i find the ringtons on the website please

>>>Who are the Hare Krsna's???

 

ISKCON

and all other vaisnava groups in our line, iskcon is not the only vaisnava group.

Yeah makes you wonder who is listening when a neophite devotee with lots of anarthas like me chants, is it the Spiritual Master, the Supersoul or Radha Krishna?

I guess at first its the spiritual master

then later the supersoul when we become pure

and then IF we become a pure devotee and our chanting is completely pure...Sri Sri Radha and Krishna

is that right? what ya tink?

‘Now you can put the paintings back on the wall and always remember that I am always at the feet of Radha and Krishna, next time you clean, put the paintings on a chair and not on the step of the Vysa-sign, one day you will also wake up from this miserable world and also see that Krishna has always been there waiting for you to again come back home and enter His pastimes - always chant Hare Krishna”

Ok nice but I interprete from this, that one day I will also understand, my miserable condition in this material world and see that Krishna has been with me within my heart from the very beginning, so I can surrender to Him....no?

This was certainly a very nice occassion you experienced with Srila Prabhupada and something very beautiful to cherish, but it is by no means something that can be taken as a proof that you are right now in Goloka dreaming your present self.

Prabhupada has not written like this and therefore it is not like this. Prabhupadas books are sastra and His spoken words and letters and classes, are preaching according to time and circumstance.

If we are right now in Vaikuntha or Goloka dreaming all this, then Srila Prabhupada would have written like this a lot. There would have been descriptions and excamples e.g.

It is not something that Srila Prabhupada would have left out, so please spare me your personal purports and give me bonafied sastric references from Srila Prabhupadas books.