Hiranyagarpa
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Posts posted by Hiranyagarpa
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That my friend, if the Bhagvad Gita is in your destiny... you'll understand why.There is no difficulty in understanding Bhagavad Gita. But the problrem is that I understand differently from Hare Christina Guys.
I'll respect your limit of Brahman and say you are right.
I dont limit Brahman . Hare Christinayans are doing that. That is my point.
If the equation krishna = Brahman is out of your comprehension then it does not mean it's the same for the One who got the luck to know and love Him.
I comprehend that equation . No difficulty there. The difficulty is in Comprehending the Hare Christina guy's inequality 'Siva is not equal to Brahman', 'Ganesha is not equal to Brahman' .
However for some [ok... many] of the Hare Krishnas, it is a different story...
They think they know when in reality they are far from the Truth.
That precisly is my point sir.
Hiranyagarpa
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But they all claim to be direct and aythentic representatives of Vedic Wisdom with out understanding the vedic Concept of god. The trouble with These Veda-proof ( Veda is gurented not to enter their brain) people is that when there is already a perfect name -with the perfect conception of oneness - for that One God in Veda : Brahman, why invent a new name - Krishna - There by creating a division to start with in contradiction to Vedic spirit of Oneness and then go ahead to convert the world that they found the real truth of Veda, and every one should follow them.
What is wrong with the good old Vadic name Bhraman?
Hiranyagarpa
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True convertion to Hinduism comes with:1 No meat eating
2 No Gambling
3 No Intoxication
4 No illict sex.
Let me answer in Sukha Style. (Sukha was born enlightened and wanted to renounce the world and go to forest When his father Vyas told him that liberation is obtained by following the Orthodex rules. Sukha the born enlightened counters them radically. Though the following response is not exactly Sukhas, as your list is not exactly same as Vyas perscribes for his son, the response matches closely the Sukhas answer to his father).
If not eating meat could liberate being ( or whetever equilant you have for liberatioin as ultimate spiritual goal - like Goloka Heven perhaps) , then all the Goaes and fruit wormes would have been liberated ( or attained heaven) by now. If By not gambling one could be liberated then all the animals and mentally retarded would have been liberated. If by not intoxicating one could gain spiritual merit then again most of the animals would gain somuch of spiritual merit. And by not engaging in illict sex if liberation is gained then all the immpotent people would be liberated.
No my friend You dont undersetand anything of Hindu spirituality. By just following certain orthodex moral code of the society you dont become spiritual . By not eating onion by not betting in horse race, by not drinking soma rasa (which Vedic rishis themself drank) and by restriting your sex activity with only those licenced by society you dont become spiritual or Hindu.
Hiranyagarpa.
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.................................................................................................................Hiranyagarpa:
In the Atharva Veda (Gopäla-täpané Upaniñad 1.24) it is similarly said:
“He who existed before the creation of Brahmä and who enlightened Brahmä with Vedic knowledge is Lord Çré Kåñëa.”
Similarly, the Näräyaëa Upaniñad (1) states: “Then the Supreme Person, Näräyaëa, desired to create all living beings. Thus from Näräyaëa, Brahmä was born. Näräyaëa created all the Prajäpatis. Näräyaëa created Indra. Näräyaëa created the eight Vasus. Näräyaëa created the eleven Rudras. Näräyaëa created the twelve Ädityas.”
Since Näräyaëa is a plenary manifestation of Lord Kåñëa, Näräyaëa and Kåñëa are one and the same.
The Näräyaëa Upaniñad (4) also states: “Devaké’s son [Kåñëa] is the Supreme Lord.”
The identity of Näräyaëa with the supreme cause has also been accepted and confirmed by Çrépäda Çaìkaräcärya, even though Çaìkara does not belong to the Vaiñëava, or personalist, cult.
The Atharva Veda (Mahä Upaniñad 1) also states: “Only Näräyaëa existed in the beginning, when neither Brahmä, nor Çiva, nor fire, nor water, nor stars, nor sun, nor moon existed. The Lord does not remain alone but creates as He desires.”
Kåñëa Himself states in the Mokña-dharma, “I created the Prajäpatis and the Rudras. They do not have complete knowledge of Me because they are covered by My illusory energy.”
It is also stated in the Varäha Puräëa: “Näräyaëa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and from Him the four-headed Brahmä was manifested, as well as Rudra, who later became omniscient.”
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Atarva veda is not considered to be an authentiv veda by the vedic tradition. There are many sources for support for this. Vedas are considered to be only three. ( I have many authentic pramanas for this . In case you need tham I can supply next time ). Hence your quate from Atarva veda has no merit.
Narayana Upanasid and many other upanasads are not part of genune vedas . They are latter addition. Any thing that does not taly with three vedas ( More stingently , any idea that is not found in Rg veda) is not genunely Vedic . This is an acid test for what is genune. So if you want to quote veda for support quote the first three vedas - or to be more perfect - quote only from Rg veda.
Varaha purana is a purana not Veda.
As for as Vedic position is concerened Saraba Iyar is right. I know it for certain by my independ research. Why figfht against what is factually true? You will never win that way.
The better stratgey for you is to say " Hell with Vedas. Bagavada purana and Vishnu purana are good enough authentic devive sourses . Regardinfg truth of devine, Bagavad geeta alone is enough". That way you will be invinsible. If you try to justify your position by the support of Veda you will only cut a sorry figure, though many foolishly try to do that with out having first hand knowledge of Veda. (They can only fool people who are ignorant of vedas, not who are learmned in Vedas)
I am not against Krishna bakti . I am only trying to help you on this issue. Because I tried once all that you are trying and missarably failed as Vedic truth is really otherwise. I discovered it the hard way, with my debate with people who really knows Vedas well.
Hiranyagarpa.
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So the Supreme god father is sitting at a computer posting on this forum?
Why not?
Do you think god is incapable of communicating with a computer?
While in the past when printing and even writing was not acvailable god spock directly the message (Sruti) in the age of writing God sent his messages by hand written books (Palm leaf and wood bark texts) In the age of printing technology God arranged to print books in paper. ( like Bagavad purana and Bagavad geeta circulated by ISCON and other organization).
Do you believe all that or no? If you do then why now doubt gods ability to reach us by our lattest technology - computer posting? You think that God is a oldfashioned fool who doesnot know how to use a computer terminal or what? .
Hiranyagarpa
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Dear Saraba Iyar,
Pranam . My high regard for a vedic priestly tradition of yours. To be a hotr priest is no joke. Some of the jokers in theis forum has no idea of what it means to be a hotr priest and vainly and arogantly argu with you on Vedic truth with out ever even reading Veda - forget of whether they understand veda or not.
My sincire advice to you an experienced man . Do not wast your time and the revered knowledge you possess with a group of fanatics who is never interested to learn the truth. You have provided authentic vedic information which I know to be correct as I did some research on the vedic priest traditions . All authentic vedic traditions in India universally have the same view.
You explained the vedic position well and clear. But dont wast your time in convincing fools and fanatics. Rather than learning from you the revered knowledge they will try to teach you and preach you. Leave them with their own fasle belief and fanatic doctrines to work out their own evil karma.
With high regards,
Hiranyagarpa.
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Dear Saraba Iyar,
Why are you Wasting your time ? Fools and fenetics will never learn even if you showthem the truth directly. Fools cannot learn And fanatics doesnot want to learn.
Your posting on the vetic gods is correct. I also heard of this in our own tradition, though I am not a vedic priest. I appreciate your post very much. It clarifies lots of issues. Your position is authentic.
But remember You are dealing with a bunch of fenetics, not with an open minded sincere spiritual learners. These fanactics are cock sure of their position, they will not change They dont understand logic and dont consider evidence. (I have some experience before you). Even if Krishna comes and tells them the truth, they will ceal the mouth of Krishna or murder him and continue to preach vehimently their own doctrine.
Dont waste your time and energy with these bunch of fanatics. Leave them with their own evil karma.
With High regards,
Hiranyagarpa.
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Here is another Private instruction of Krishna to another Prophet Krishnamadhuramayi of ffice:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on">Bengal</st1:place>. Krishnamadhuramayi has been so spiritually advanced by Krishna bhakti, that she used to see <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in Praktiaksha. <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> used to play with her all the time during her fag end of her life. One day <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> announced her physical death. She asked <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> for mukti after this present life. <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> instructed her Lord Siva’s mantra and advised her to worship Lord Siva for the rest of her life. Madhuramayi was disappointed and asked why <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> himself is not gracing her with Moksha . <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> explained her that He is the preserver and cannot destroy Ego. He can goive her Goloka heven if she desires that but Not Moksha that requires the destruction of the ego. Siva alone can do that . Mohsha is Siva’s Department. Ultimately all souls will have to worship Siva for Moksha. For Swarga – heven – other gods will do but for moksha Lord Siva alone is the master.
She Instructed all her wVaishnava deciples to woership Siva at her fag end of her spiritual carrier and to those choose to continued to be Vishnavate advised not to engage in Siva Nindha, which her Vishnavite deciles were freely doing all along. She told them Categorically the <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> message : Those who Do Siva Ninda not only have no hope of Liberation, but they have no hope to gain even their favorite gods’ heavens. Siva Nindha is a grave Sin; And Vishnu certainly will not tolerate it. Even if a soul is devoted dearly to Vishnu and chants his mantra and serves him Trillion Kalpas, one single Sivaninda will destroy the entire merit and such a soul will sure to go to hell.
<st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> seems to give contradictory instructions in his private conversations with his different Prophets.
Fool(s)! Awake. May be it is you who are going to Hell by believing such Sinful dogma of your chosen Prophet.
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Brahma is the First born Being in the Universe [he was born atop a lotus flower that sprung from the Naval of the sleeping Maha-Vishnu].Brahma is the original spiritual master for the universe, because he was initiated by the Lord Krishna Himself [another detailed pastime], thus, the message of Srimad-Bhagavatam is coming down from Brahma. That is why the disciplic succession of the Gaudiya Vaishnava is called Brahma Sampradaya.
That is first rate Goudia Vaishnava's bluff.
Brahma is the highest truth identical with the vedic Brahman. Brahma is the saguna form of Bhraman. From this first saguna Brahman named Brahma, all other saguna forms including Mahavishnu came. Brahma is the creater of all gods. He is the father of vishnu.
Vaishnavas have reversed the order of creation. When Gaudia Vaishnavas could reverse of the status of Mahavishnu and Krishna who is a mere mortal avadar of Mahavishnu - if they could do this to their own god - why will they not do it to Brahma?
Hiranyagarpa
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Count me too in the fan club.
Added to Sambya and Trivedi's ideas, I should bring to the notice that Sankara is not the Avadar of Siva as it is implied in the post no. 4 of Lahulyam . Even it is widely believed by many now it still cannot be true as Siva does not incornate in mortal womb. Siva has never taken birth in flesh and blood. Incarnating is Vishnu's earned curse ( he was cursed by a saint that he will be born again and again in all sorts of wombs , for doing some mischif) . Siva has no such destiny).
Puranas are definitly corrept texts. Whoever included the material on 'Siva's Avadar in disguise of a brahmin teaching Mayavada" in Padmapurana, did not knew the fact of Siva's 'Non incarnation principle' and is a let out of the correption of the text, in addition to the reference of Buddism in Padmapurana.
Hiranyagarpa
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I didn't want to assume you are a mister. Anyways in sanskrit the womb is referred to as Garba and not garpa.I am not paranoid thank you. You still have not expressed the implications of my reasoning in your post except to say there are implications.
Glad that I remind you of the poet Kalidasa. I by no means can be compared to the great poet, but thanks for the compliment.
Again you keep saying there is an implication without mentioning what that is.
Mr. Justin,
Even I am ashamed of the mistake in the spelling in my name. It is not my doing. The municipality school I went in my primary education made that mistake. I could have corrected it of course. But it seems to be a big hassle.
You still not getting the implication that I am talking about, even after the Kalidas story? You are truly a former Kalians. Let me be explicit then. I am referring to your argument on near death experience. You are cutting the very branch on which you are sitting.
Still I am waiting for your scientific proof beyond doubt.
I think you are not providing it right away, because there isn’t any. The material that you have referred too does not contain neither scientific proof not it is in any way beyond doubt. What you are referring to are quake science. You are not able to distinguish between quackery and science.
Hiranyagarpa
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Mr. or Miss Hiranyagarpa,The links below contain an exhaustive list of resources and FAQs on NDE
I am not an atheist or inconsistent. What implications are you threatening me with?
Mr. Justin,
I am a male. My name means Golden Womb and refers to the Creator Brahma.
No need to get paranoid. I am not threatening you of any dangerous consequence from out side source. I am referring to the logical implication of your line of reasoning. If you are not athirst then you are confused. You remained me of a old mythical story of Kalidasa the poet. He was a utter fool before he became brainy, by the grace of goddess kali. The story goes like this. There was a princes who was very arrogant of her brain and insulted every one in the palace. They all were waiting for a chance to take their revenge. When it was time to get her married she put a condition that she will only marry some own who is a genius and who will win her in a debate with her. The minister and the group who were waiting for their chance to revenge her took this opportunity and conspired to find the most foolish person and trick her to get married to that moron. With this resolve they went on a search mission to find an utter fool. When they came to a remote village they found Kalidasa - a shepherded sitting on the end of a tree branch and cutting the bottom side of the branch. He was cutting the branch for the leaves for his goats oblivious of the fact that that way he will fall with the branch. The palace group picked him up as he was such a moron that he did not know the consequence of his own action. The story continues but I will stop.
Your way of arguing using science to make the Near Death Experience, a case of madness has the same implication for your own religiosity. If you are not an atheist, then you should not be doing what you are doing. Obviously you must be so confused about logic that you don’t see the implication of your own argument. I was referring to this logical implication, not uttering any personal threat.
Now coming to your links, I took the pain of going through them with the hope of finding the ‘established proof beyond doubt’, but all I could get there were opinion, not proof. Everything is doubtable. I could not find any proof beyond doubt.
May be my brain is not good enough like yours to see and understand such proof present over there. Since you have grasped it can you please do a favor? Please succinctly and clearly state the proof. Don’t give me the links. Hope that is not too much of a trouble for you. I am eagerly waiting for the proof beyond doubt that you have.
Hirayanyagarpa
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It has established beyond doubt that people who experienced this sense of oneness were neurotic. FYI..these people were not even Advaitin's. They just went through a Near Death Syndrome which they thought they experienced bliss. Such people are mentally challenged.
Mr Justin
Those supposed to be Established proofs beyond doubt with near death experiences are not at all established but opinion of materialist scientist who do not believe in soul. I have read accounts of near death experience and judgments on them. There are counter views.
The materialistic medical scientists trained to believe that body is just a mechanical material gadget and there is no soul and death is the material body stops functioning. Nothing continues beyond death as there is nothing else (like soul) to continue. Death is simply the end. What remains is Nothing. These materialist doctors unable to believe the accounts of out of body states of those people who experience death and returned to the body (technical termed as near death experience - though it is death proper for a brief time), in their disbelief and materialistic prejudice explain it away as the person’s hallucination. It is just their prejudiced opinion. There is no conclusive proof that it is just hallucination and there is no conceivable way to prove that it is so.
There are other equally and well qualified but open-minded serious medical professionals who have researched on the same state have a different view. They note that almost all the near death experience experiences are more or less very similar in content. If it were mere hallucination this uniformity of contents could not be accounted for. This account clearly indicates survival of a soul beyond physical mortality and conform spiritual accounts to an amazing degree. This is so even of nonreligious people and atheists who experienced the near death state and the experience is uniformly same across cultures and religious background. There is simply no room to assume subjectivity.
What you call established -beyond doubt - proof regarding the illusory nature of the experience is neither neither established nor convincing going by the data on real death experience. NDE rather offers a direct proof for the existence of souls and the truth of religion if we were to look at these experiences with open mind and objectivity.
If you still hold that there is conclusive proof , please provide the details of such proof. What are the standards and rigor of such proof? How is the proof actually worked out in detail?How exactly it is proved beyond doubt? I am very curious to know the detailed proof.
Are you an atheist pretending to be religious in this forum with a purpose of demolishing religious belief or are you simply inconsistent, not knowing what really the implication of what you are talking about?
Hiranyagarpa
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It is accepted that the fake Upanishads are monistic. And some of them contain examples from Sankara Bhashya. Atma Bindu upanishad, current version of Mahopanishad, etc. Who else but Advaitins could have done that?
That is putting the cart before the horse. If the Upanishads contain examples from Sankara Bhashya, it means that sankara has taken it from Upanishads, not the other way round.
Hiranyagarpa
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Creator is true Brahman - A plausible thesis
The idea that Brahman is the creator god cannot be brushed away that easily. This is a belief at least in certain sect of Brahmins, though this argument never saw limelight. Unlike the Advida acharya or the Vaishnava acharyas , no one bothered to promote this thesis publically. But , inspite of its lack of public visibility, there is a strong scriptural proof for this.. I cannot offer the pramanas for this I am not as good as Dark Warrior in pramanas. But certainly such scholarship exists among the sect which believes in it. What I can provide here is a sort of loose argument to show that this is certainly a possibility.
Vishnu is not associated with Veda or knowledge .His specialization is not knowledge but wealth His wife is Lakshmi. Siva doses not possess Veda either his specialization is power.
In the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">varna</st1:City></st1:place> system, it is Brahmins who are declared to be entitled to learn and teach Veda. And they are dealing with Knowledge, Saraswati . Lakshmi is a Traders goddess and Sakti is the goddess of Kshatrias . Vaisya and Kshatria’s dharma is not Vedic study and teaching. Though these three varnas are entitled for mokash, according to bhrama sutra, warriors and traders business is not to study interpret and teach. Knowledge. ie. Saraswati , does not belong to them and is the exclusive property of Brahmin. And what is the knowledge that Brahmins are involved with? Knowledge of Brahman. And who is Saraswati’s husband? The creator Brahma.
Now let us look at the symbolism of the Bhrama
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The Crater has four heads and they are assumed to be the four Vedas. From each mouth came one Veda. He is Vedas personified.
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He possesses the Vedas. He holds in his hand. He creates the world with Vedas.
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His wife is goddess of knowledge. What the Brahmin is engaged with.
- His name is Brahma. He is the only god bearing as his personal name the directly the same word ‘Brahman’ Other gods are only attributed the quality of Brahman.
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And there is no temple or idols for the creator. There is a mythological account for this. How Brahma and Vishnu failed to find the Siva’s head and Brahma lied and as ca result earned Siva’s curse that there will be no temples or idols or worship for him. But that is only a myth. The true signification behind the absence of temple and idol worship for Brahma is that the creator being Brahman, he is formless and cannot be worshipped in the regular fashion as other gods which are in any case not Vedic but as per Agamas. Bhrama’s worship is the study of Vedas and related Sastras through Saraswati. . Grasping Brahman, that is the worship. And that is what the Brahmins are doing. They through Veda worship Brahma the creator of everything.
There are too many factors associated with the creator to dismiss the thesis that Brahma is all in all the true embodiment of Veda personified. That Brahma is true Brahman.
Though in the forgoing attempt I have not produced scholarly Vedic pramana, as I am no scholar of Veda, but such a proof exists and I have heard such a rigorous reasoning in certain circles of Vedic scholars. Other members who have knowledge on this may provide such scholarly proof.
Hiranyagarpa
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The Crater has four heads and they are assumed to be the four Vedas. From each mouth came one Veda. He is Vedas personified.
On U.S. election. Srila Prabhupada - 'Why shall I give this nonsense person my vote?
in Spiritual Discussions
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I aggree on your personal view.
But this view is not what I get in this forum by and large. It is the very opposit view that is being forcefully probagated, and even practiced . I know of Vaishnavites who would not drink water from Saivite Brahmins and treat others (even of higher cast non-Vaishnavites ) as untouchables, simply becsause they are not Vaishnavites.
Where is the practice of the Non - dual thuth of Veda in their life?
It is not a personal attack on You . It is all well for you to sit in some forign country and praise the ISKCON and even other Vaishnava group and think high of Krishna Bakti You may see Krishna as Beautiful Brahman . It may seems to be a fine cut Dimond to you. But we in India at close quarter see the rough and ugly side of the Dimond. I am not against Krishna devotion. But you should know religion - Hindu religion - is not all that clean and holy as you might think . Remember our's is a country wich treated and still treating women as inferior by quoting bhrama sutra, burned women alive by religious sanction, practices untouchability . Many of the posting in this very discussion group refers to and justify the 'Sudra's' inferior statrus. You your self may have noticed that many traditional Vaishnavas believe that forigners are unclean and cannot be Vaishnavas. If you ever visit India go to the famous Krishna temple in Guruivayur in Kerala state. Your beautiful Brahmman _ Krishna , will not let you in, because you are a forigner.
Mind you all this is springing from religious doctrines, and indoctrination.
Where is the non-dual truth you task about in Vaishnava religion? If it is your personal understanding it is a different matter. But that does not seems to be the dominant Vaishnavite position.
Difference is not beautiful. It is ugly. Love does not justify difference as you think. It is hate which is the cause of it. The form of Krishna may be beautiful than the formless Brahman , but the practice that springs from that form is very ugly.
Hiranyagarpa.